| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Laerrigan |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 23:57:30
Having not done a lot of FR novel reading (I've mostly been interested in sourcebooks), can anyone tell me exactly what was supposed to be so bad about the curse on the drow? Simply their light blindness, making underground life more suitable to them, whereas the Ilythiiri, at least, had been so sun-oriented? Because a slight reduction in stature and a change of coloration never seemed that horrific or terribly sensical to me, especially when they apparently looked different from other elven subraces in the first place and so could be discerned and guarded against in that way already (though I know there have been different canon versions of that over time)... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 07:57:54
I always considered that it was like mark of shame on the whole subrace with finger pointed: They are monsters! They are betrayers! They are not one of us! Know them as your enemies forever!... Or something like that. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 03:38:18
I'd second that. I've only used that one group of driders so far in my games, but I don't recall anywhere in the lore where it says they HAVE to be insane- it just appears to be the "norm" for them. |
| Laerrigan |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 02:19:37
I'm not complaining about the quite-interesting tangential development going on, but do you think it would all be better in a separate scroll dedicated to ideas on handling driders in games, their place in drow society, and whether the change (or state) is a curse or blessing? Easier for people to come across it, know what's there, and delve into it that way. It kind of seems to me like it might even work well in Running the Realms...? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 01:50:03
Or you could further simplify it, and somehow the magic that caused some Drow to 'revert' (be redeemed) to dark Elves also cured the driders of their insanity. You could put whatever spin you want on that (divine intervention, Miyeritar blood, High-magic once again 'gone amok', etc), and even have two groups if you prefer (sane and nutso).
That would be the reasoning for the new status in 4e - obviously, because of the timing, you couldn't use that in 3e or earlier. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 01:36:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The other day, I thought of a way around the insane/bloodthirsty bit, for driders...
A traitor-priestess.
So you've got this traitor-priestess we'll call Eredrina. No meaning to the name, just pulled it out of thin air.
Eredrina serves Lolth openly, and Vhaeraun secretly, for those unfamiliar with the traitor-priestess concept. She is one day involved with (or does it by herself) the ritual to turn a drow into a drider. With intimate knowledge of the process and more than a little assistance from Vhaeraun, she figures out a way to do it that allows the drider to retain his prior personality. The new drider (we'll call him Peiter  ) becomes a priest of Vhaeraun, and he learns that same altered ritual... Give it a few centuries, and you've got a growing population of intelligent, reasoning driders, capable of increasing their numbers.
Or, for a simpler alternative -- a ritual that restores the original personality of a drider. Either way, you get the same end result.
I like the addition of Vhaeraun.
And for an extra-ultra twist, why not have Vhaeraun lay the foundation for this drider community on the suface? I'd imagine a growing community of intelligent driders would be of immense usefulness to Vhaeraun's ambitions in the Night Above. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 18:16:26
The other day, I thought of a way around the insane/bloodthirsty bit, for driders...
A traitor-priestess.
So you've got this traitor-priestess we'll call Eredrina. No meaning to the name, just pulled it out of thin air.
Eredrina serves Lolth openly, and Vhaeraun secretly, for those unfamiliar with the traitor-priestess concept. She is one day involved with (or does it by herself) the ritual to turn a drow into a drider. With intimate knowledge of the process and more than a little assistance from Vhaeraun, she figures out a way to do it that allows the drider to retain his prior personality. The new drider (we'll call him Peiter ) becomes a priest of Vhaeraun, and he learns that same altered ritual... Give it a few centuries, and you've got a growing population of intelligent, reasoning driders, capable of increasing their numbers.
Or, for a simpler alternative -- a ritual that restores the original personality of a drider. Either way, you get the same end result. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 17:22:34
Well, another poster once pointed out that they would still have some of the basic drow needs for companionship and "community", so why not congregate in colonies? There are even some spiders who build communal webs, so it's not outside the "Realms" of possibility. |
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 07:18:52
Not to mention that they're insane and bloodthirsty. I could see 1 in a 1000 exception (i.e. drider PC) but whole colonies/cities? Not a chance (at least pre-failplague). |
| Laerrigan |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 01:04:11
Driders are Always Evil. Save the world. Farm XP. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 22:29:05
I have recently been running an on-line RP over on Chosen of Eilistraee, where I used a small colony of "evolved" driders. The plot hook there was that they had found a way to turn others into driders to increase their numbers, and had also been "blessed" by Lolth (in a dream-vision sent to a drider priestess) to be able to breed and have children. They were snatching priestesses leading patrols in the Underdark to convert for breeding purposes, just outside the territory of Menzoberranzan. I built off of Wooly and Sage's ideas for Tel Verinal, and ran with it. Now they have their own small community, though it's not yet self-sustaining, and they had kidnapped three females from the party as part of their breeding program. Makes for some very fun and intriguing RP! (Does one kill a driderling? Especially if one is an Eilistraeean?) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 05:59:47
I have a group of prominent Driders in the Spiderhaunt peaks over by Murghōm and Semphar. I'm not sure if I homebrewed that, or it's based on something I read - I'll have to double-check it and get back to you guys.
I know those mountains are crawling with all sorts of spiders, in a variety of sizes, but I'm not sure about the Driders, as I said.
I also have an on-going war between the driders and tlincallis (Scorpionmen) since their arrival in Faerūn. You could always use that as a basis for their acceptance now - perhaps the Tlincallis posed a serious threat to one or more drow communities, and the driders are the only ones who can challenge them (maybe they are immune to their poison, or some such). So the driders went from being outcasts to being saviors. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 04:08:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm with MT on this one.
In my own Realms campaign I never understood the "punishment" of being turned into a Drider. In fact, Driders became very prominent in my game; having a "Drider King" that, while admittedly being a half-fiend Drow to start with, became a very bad-ass Drider (who remained a half-fiend).
He considered it a freedom of sorts...because he was allowed to leave Drow society and go on his own; and slowly gathered more and more Drider to his cause. The end-result being that he became a Drider "King" after a fashion and his followers were exceedingly dangrous to anyone...especially Drow.
Ever since tossing out the idea in another thread, I've loved the idea of driders becoming a political power in a drow city, serving as a combination of militia and Bregan D'aerthe. If they figured out a way to increase their numbers by turning willing drow into driders, they could become quite prominent in this hypothetical city.
I actually combined that with my own thinking on the subject, when I implemented some of this stuff for the "Tel Verinal" project. Though, I focused more on the concept of creating a legitimate drider "community" by initially having these driders sell themselves as militia in order to found some kind of financial base for the later establishment a "drider city" somewhere in the Underdark. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 04:01:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm with MT on this one.
In my own Realms campaign I never understood the "punishment" of being turned into a Drider. In fact, Driders became very prominent in my game; having a "Drider King" that, while admittedly being a half-fiend Drow to start with, became a very bad-ass Drider (who remained a half-fiend).
He considered it a freedom of sorts...because he was allowed to leave Drow society and go on his own; and slowly gathered more and more Drider to his cause. The end-result being that he became a Drider "King" after a fashion and his followers were exceedingly dangrous to anyone...especially Drow.
Ever since tossing out the idea in another thread, I've loved the idea of driders becoming a political power in a drow city, serving as a combination of militia and Bregan D'aerthe. If they figured out a way to increase their numbers by turning willing drow into driders, they could become quite prominent in this hypothetical city. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 19:30:16
I'm with MT on this one.
In my own Realms campaign I never understood the "punishment" of being turned into a Drider. In fact, Driders became very prominent in my game; having a "Drider King" that, while admittedly being a half-fiend Drow to start with, became a very bad-ass Drider (who remained a half-fiend).
He considered it a freedom of sorts...because he was allowed to leave Drow society and go on his own; and slowly gathered more and more Drider to his cause. The end-result being that he became a Drider "King" after a fashion and his followers were exceedingly dangrous to anyone...especially Drow. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 18:31:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But doesn't Lolth herself often take the form of a spider with a drow's head?
Been thinking about this.
Yes Lolth does take a spider form, however a beautiful spider form.
Driders in past editions were ugly forms. Drow like all elves want to be about beauty and beautiful people.
Driders on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being best) come in at a -5 |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 18:04:12
I remember reading that the original idea was; you take the test at level 6. You fail, you get turned into a drider, the equivalent of a level 9. However, you can't advance beyond that, so the level 6 priests who succeed will be more powerful in the long run. As monster advancement became more common and Lolth's depiction shifted from "spider with a drow's head" to "drider", this started making less and less sense. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 13:42:54
Maybe I should have wrote Lady Penitent. 
Anyhow, on the 'Drider issue'. I don't have a problem with it either way (but I would have preferred NOT to have a retcon - one person's opinions on a matter should NOT over-write thirty years of lore!!!)
It may make more sense now, but it makes less sense because it was a change to the continuity, which is far more damaging in the long run (IMHO).
HOWEVER, there is a VERY simple fix for this....
Being a Drider was a curse. Lolth designed it to be a mockery of the spider form ('caught between worlds'). Over time (many centuries), Driders evolved into their own culture and sub-group. originally intended to be lone aberrations and shunned by all, they managed to embrace their form and build upon it.
Lolth respects that - they embraced chaos And overcame adversity. In some areas other drow realized this as well (perhaps Lolth was inspired by them, or vice-versa). Regardless, what was once considered a horrible curse began to be viewed as something spiritual - an ascendancy of form bringing one closer to their goddess. The Spellplague played a part in this, as did the Silence of Lolth and the events of Lady Penitent - all major changes in the lives of Faerūnian Drow that brought about certain cultural shifts.
So both versions of lore is correct - things have simply changed. For the people of Toril, it wasn't as immediate or 'retconny' as it appears to us - it is something that happened over a very long time, and as of 4e the new attitude toward driders is the official one. In your own home campaigns you can even use this - older drow may still cling to their old ways, and be disgusted by the driders, but younger ones will aspire to become one. Different communities could even have different attitudes (although I am sure Lolth made it known to her priestesses that she will not tolerate 'drider hunts' any longer).
Sure it was a retcon, but it doesn't have to be. If there is one thing I've learned over the past three years, it's that the lore itself isn't terrible - its just the quality of the presentation ("a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"). The current group of designers at WotC are like chefs working in a restaurant with no wait-staff: They can cook great dishes, but they have no clue how to serve them to their customers.
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| Laerrigan |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 06:17:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See? Some changes go done kinda easy...
As for the drow - 'light' Elves actually derive part of their sustenance from sunlight (see 2e CBoE), which I assume they absorb through their skin in a fashion similar to plants. This is why even the more 'civilized' elven peoples (Eladrin, whatever) still build homes that remind them of the great outdoors, with wide-open spaces and courtyards. Elves do not have so much an affinity with nature, as they do with just being 'outside' (under the sun). This is why elves held in captivity (away from sunlight) do not live very long.
What the curse did was alter their skin so it was incapable of absorbing sunlight any longer, and also made it so their eyes became intolerant of daylight. The result was that the curse took the very thing elves cherish the most, and turned into anathema to them.
In those first few centuries, driven away from 'the light' and into the underground (that they once were disgusted by), the drow went a little insane, and their natural tendencies and paranoia grew to the point where they preyed upon each other as much as other creatures did.
And they ate each other. Thats canon.
So the curse did tremendous psychological damage to the elves - it took from them what they lived for - to be free under the sun. Some drow may pretend to loathe the surface and sunlight, but the sad truth is they still yearn to feel the warmth upon their faces, and the breeze blow through their hair. They have been denied their heritage; this is why nearly all drow are bottled-up wellsprings of pure rage waiting for the slightly provocation to be released.
They are still made to suffer for the sin of their fathers. That is the truth of the drow, and the shame of the Seldarine. 
Thanks, I also didn't know that bit about elves and sun/outdoors and dying in captivity; I just figured that "the great outdoors" was simply their preference, being close to nature, but I couldn't really fathom why those that went underground didn't seem to have such a tie to nature down there (since there are entire ecosystems in the Underdark). I knew Ilythiir reveled in the sun, but assumed it was a cultural thing, the sun being associated with gold, glory, power, and such in some circles of thought. The sun/outdoors/captivity issue also says a lot about the state of the rockseer elves of Night Below, beyond the psychological/spiritual implications of their tale of their history/origin. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 05:32:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But doesn't Lolth herself often take the form of a spider with a drow's head?
True. But she is a divine entity. She can assume any combination of forms she wishes. A drider is stuck between the two worlds.
Granted, the drider form could be interpreted as a holy tribute to Lolth's supposed 'true form' -- " ... appearing as a giant spider with a coldly beautiful female drow head." But I think the key word here... is "female." How is a male who becomes a drider supposed to feel, other than as a mockery of Lolth's form, especially considering the status of males in a Lolth-driven society?
Closer to Lolth because of the new form?
But they're still male. Even with their new form, they'll never achieve the status they probably think they should be granted to them because they're now somehow closer to the divine form of Lolth.
It's a cruel joke played on the male drow. Even when they're closer to their god, they still can't climb the ladder of drow society. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 05:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But doesn't Lolth herself often take the form of a spider with a drow's head?
True. But she is a divine entity. She can assume any combination of forms she wishes. A drider is stuck between the two worlds.
Granted, the drider form could be interpreted as a holy tribute to Lolth's supposed 'true form' -- " ... appearing as a giant spider with a coldly beautiful female drow head." But I think the key word here... is "female." How is a male who becomes a drider supposed to feel, other than as a mockery of Lolth's form, especially considering the status of males in a Lolth-driven society?
Closer to Lolth because of the new form? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 04:53:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But doesn't Lolth herself often take the form of a spider with a drow's head?
True. But she is a divine entity. She can assume any combination of forms she wishes. A drider is stuck between the two worlds.
Granted, the drider form could be interpreted as a holy tribute to Lolth's supposed 'true form' -- " ... appearing as a giant spider with a coldly beautiful female drow head." But I think the key word here... is "female." How is a male who becomes a drider supposed to feel, other than as a mockery of Lolth's form, especially considering the status of males in a Lolth-driven society? |
| ChieftainTwilight |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 04:46:54
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
4e changes the driders thing. Becoming one is now a blessing and sign of favor from Lloth.
That was something that always bugged me about prior editions. "You will be cursed by the Queen of Spiders... by being made to resemble that which she loves, spiders."
It is something of a perversion, though, over the classical concept of the spidery form.
However, I've always thought it had more to do with the fact of being permanently and forever tied to Lolth's will. Given that the power of the transformation comes from the Queen of Spiders, any disloyal drow or those who blasphemy the worship of Lolth, would consider it something of a "inconvenience" to be forever tied to a deity -- in a form also revered by that deity -- they loathe. Which is exactly what the punishment of the drider entails.
I can see that, but... Here's the real rub: Lolth is all about spiders, so her priestesses are, too. They are so into spiders that someone can be slain on the spot for accidentally stepping on one. Now, if I was a priestess of Lolth, and I was that into spiders, I'd want to get closer to my deity by becoming part spider. Binding someone to Lolth's will as punishment is one thing, but giving them a divine form you yourself can't have? Does not compute.
A divine form which now lacks free will and is the personal servant of all high priestesses?
Seems like win win to me. Keeps males in line and in turn, instead of merely wasting them by killing them, they become tools that can be used
wait, they lose their free will now? dangit 4th edition! >.< |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 04:39:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
4e changes the driders thing. Becoming one is now a blessing and sign of favor from Lloth.
That was something that always bugged me about prior editions. "You will be cursed by the Queen of Spiders... by being made to resemble that which she loves, spiders."
It is something of a perversion, though, over the classical concept of the spidery form.
However, I've always thought it had more to do with the fact of being permanently and forever tied to Lolth's will. Given that the power of the transformation comes from the Queen of Spiders, any disloyal drow or those who blasphemy the worship of Lolth, would consider it something of a "inconvenience" to be forever tied to a deity -- in a form also revered by that deity -- they loathe. Which is exactly what the punishment of the drider entails.
I can see that, but... Here's the real rub: Lolth is all about spiders, so her priestesses are, too. They are so into spiders that someone can be slain on the spot for accidentally stepping on one. Now, if I was a priestess of Lolth, and I was that into spiders, I'd want to get closer to my deity by becoming part spider. Binding someone to Lolth's will as punishment is one thing, but giving them a divine form you yourself can't have? Does not compute.
A divine form which now lacks free will and is the personal servant of all high priestesses?
Seems like win win to me. Keeps males in line and in turn, instead of merely wasting them by killing them, they become tools that can be used |
| ChieftainTwilight |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 04:28:45
oh my...
1.) I never new that 2nd edition canon of the Elves... it realy makes itall make sense, and suddenly I have more respect for the Fall of Illythiir.
2.) Driders being stuck between worlds, that is a concept of suffering I can relate to all too well. aye, that's a punishment alright. perfectly befitting a highest-offence justice. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 04:14:59
But doesn't Lolth herself often take the form of a spider with a drow's head? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 03:09:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
4e changes the driders thing. Becoming one is now a blessing and sign of favor from Lloth.
That was something that always bugged me about prior editions. "You will be cursed by the Queen of Spiders... by being made to resemble that which she loves, spiders."
It is something of a perversion, though, over the classical concept of the spidery form.
However, I've always thought it had more to do with the fact of being permanently and forever tied to Lolth's will. Given that the power of the transformation comes from the Queen of Spiders, any disloyal drow or those who blasphemy the worship of Lolth, would consider it something of a "inconvenience" to be forever tied to a deity -- in a form also revered by that deity -- they loathe. Which is exactly what the punishment of the drider entails.
I can see that, but... Here's the real rub: Lolth is all about spiders, so her priestesses are, too. They are so into spiders that someone can be slain on the spot for accidentally stepping on one. Now, if I was a priestess of Lolth, and I was that into spiders, I'd want to get closer to my deity by becoming part spider. Binding someone to Lolth's will as punishment is one thing, but giving them a divine form you yourself can't have? Does not compute.
Maybe.
I think it really comes down to how the individual drow sees him/herself. Being transformed into the creature of your worship is one thing... but a drider is a perversion-form. It's somewhere between a drow and a spider -- not wholly one or the other.
I think that's where part of the punishment of the drider-form lies. You're stuck between two worlds, as an aberration, because you're not worthy enough -- in the eyes of Lolth -- to belong to either the world of the drow, or the world of the spiders.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 03:01:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See? Some changes go done kinda easy...
It makes more sense now. It's still a retcon, which does not go down easy. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 03:00:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
4e changes the driders thing. Becoming one is now a blessing and sign of favor from Lloth.
That was something that always bugged me about prior editions. "You will be cursed by the Queen of Spiders... by being made to resemble that which she loves, spiders."
It is something of a perversion, though, over the classical concept of the spidery form.
However, I've always thought it had more to do with the fact of being permanently and forever tied to Lolth's will. Given that the power of the transformation comes from the Queen of Spiders, any disloyal drow or those who blasphemy the worship of Lolth, would consider it something of a "inconvenience" to be forever tied to a deity -- in a form also revered by that deity -- they loathe. Which is exactly what the punishment of the drider entails.
I can see that, but... Here's the real rub: Lolth is all about spiders, so her priestesses are, too. They are so into spiders that someone can be slain on the spot for accidentally stepping on one. Now, if I was a priestess of Lolth, and I was that into spiders, I'd want to get closer to my deity by becoming part spider. Binding someone to Lolth's will as punishment is one thing, but giving them a divine form you yourself can't have? Does not compute. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 02:29:33
Is it a curse to be banished from the sunlight, where sun light was an important part of your life?
The use of High magic on such a scale always appear to provide unexpected results.
In some ways the curse also became a blessing. Something lost but another thing gained. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 01:43:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
4e changes the driders thing. Becoming one is now a blessing and sign of favor from Lloth.
That was something that always bugged me about prior editions. "You will be cursed by the Queen of Spiders... by being made to resemble that which she loves, spiders."
It is something of a perversion, though, over the classical concept of the spidery form.
However, I've always thought it had more to do with the fact of being permanently and forever tied to Lolth's will. Given that the power of the transformation comes from the Queen of Spiders, any disloyal drow or those who blasphemy the worship of Lolth, would consider it something of a "inconvenience" to be forever tied to a deity -- in a form also revered by that deity -- they loathe. Which is exactly what the punishment of the drider entails.
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