| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 02:28:03
There are many ways illusionists can be very useful in combat, yet we rarely see them being utilized in FR novels. Outside FR though, illusionists are given enough importance. To name a few, there's Durzo Blint from Weeks's The Night Angels trilogy, Laromendis from Feist's The Demonwar Saga, and Jane from Meyer's The Twilight Saga. Laromendis created monstrous illusions to distract the hoards of demons who came to invade their planet, while his fellow taredhel spellcasters blasted the demons. Jane had no equal; she could inflict illusory pain to anyone, save perhaps her twin brother, who can numb any target, including himself. In fact, had she had the slightest inclination, she could have replaced Aro.
In the Realms, the best examples we have are the Zulkirs of Illusion and their lackeys, the Halruaan illusionists who vanished after the SP, and a few other illusionist archmages who are in hiding. In the Haunted Lands trilogy, it didn't really help that the wizards from the School of Illusion were only used to create that spell of concealment on the entire army as they marched to face Tam's legions. There's one time when Jhesri and few wizards created illusory images of the zulkirs, which was helpful in a few heartbeats as the opposing army felt fear and hesitated to advance. But then there's still so much more the illusionists could have done. In the battle at the Keep of Sorrows, for instance, the Red Wizards from the school of Illusion could have provided sufficient distraction---illusory monsters, demons, blinding light, or stomach-wrenching putridity---giving the evokers a second or two to blast their enemies to pieces. Or, given that their spells are hardly effective against undead, the illusionists could have killed scores of their livingť foes by creating illusion of drowning, where they would simply stop breathing.
Why, then, do we rarely see illusionists in the novels? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Mar 2014 : 09:19:13
Umara, from Richard’s The Reaver, proved to be a very capable illusionist. She was able to cloak an entire caravel. With her illusions, she also fooled Shadowmoon, the most powerful Chosen of Silvanus in Turmish, and Evendur Highcastle, the Bitch Queen's rotten (literally) Chosen that plagued the Sea of Fallen Stars. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 06:43:06
Illusion can be efficient and versatile power. But needs good and fast thinking.
For a good (if a little NSFW) example... in Magic Chicks espers don't respect magic-users much because tactically they have advantage of using their powers instantly, which works even better when everyone is trained in at least basics of physical fighting. Then we have Chastity vs. Jacqui match. A flying fencer presumably good enough to get lazy by now instead of trying harder vs... purely illusion/phantasm specialist who never trained in anything else. Go on, look - within four pages it's completely over.
Back to our gnomes, there was an article "Illusions of Grandeur" in Dragon. To the effect of "I never call myself an illusionist. An illusionist is someone squishy who can do little real damage. So the good advice is: as far as anyone concerned, you're just a wizard. Get used to carrying in your pockets some bat guano an suchlike..."  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 09:38:19
Other major illusions are those that defend Evermeet (the fake reefs and concealed reefs/the fake storms and disguised weather/ the fake beasts & disguised beasts) and similarly the homeland of the Irda in Dragonlance. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 09:36:13
In the realms, the only spellcasters I know of that can mix necromancy and illusion are generalists (mages/sorcerers) and one of the types of elven dualist (who can cast nothing but illusion/phantasm & Necromancy).
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| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 07:19:19
Oh, how could I forget Mystogan (from Fairy Tail). His Skyscraper spell is a very powerful illusion that only a handful of S-Class wizards could break. He's not a pure illusionist, though.
Just recently it's revealed that Alexie, Laxus's father and guild leader of Raven Tail, also possesses some strong illusion magic.
----------------------------------------------------------
In the Realms, necromancy and illusion don't go together, right? But (spoiler)Lod made that moot. A powerful necromancer himself, he was able to inflict a fey lord—one whose strength was comparable to that of a demigod—with a very potent illusion (or as the author put it, the idea) of poison that killed its victim, slowly but quite surely. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 21:11:57
Exactly, and apologies along with a few silvers, along with the realization that you just stopped the target Bad Guy going to hurt them, an illusionist won't likely be chased from the town he just saved with torches and pitchforks. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 20:53:24
Well, the illusionist does cause less collateral damage. Innocent bystanders caught by color spray will only be dazed and angered. Innocent bystanders (and anything flammable they carry, plus half the buildings in the village) will be destroyed by a fireball, before even considering the damage caused by things ablaze. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 19:36:15
I don't think color spray can kill some of them though.
Regardless - I was just trying to make an example of how an illusionist can even be useful in a big battle like that - not advocating that strategy :P |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 19:09:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An important difference in your example, TMM, is that (using 2E/3E rules) the invoker's enemies would be zorched, while the illusionist's enemies would only think they got zorched and eventually regain their faculties. Leaving behind a formation of angry targets will cause problems; slitting their throats before they can wake up is hardly heroic.
Honestly, and this shows my alignment a little too much, but a well placed color spray equals that exact scenario. Works great on the goblins getting ready to torch the village you are supposed to be defending.
(that and I had an evil chuckle) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 18:11:41
To me the test of illusions and game mechanics is determining what happens when two illusions (or illusionists) fight each other (standard rules, not any special fancy magic-duelling rules). I don't play 4E, but I think the 4E mechanic for illusions is definitely better. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 18:03:31
That's up for interpretation, and has already been debated and contradicted ad nauseum in other rulebooks.
As a player I would be immediately suspicious (and a little miffed) when hit by a fireball which doesn't allow a save. As a DM, I wouldn't create an illusionary troll which never misses an attack, or a wobbly illusionary rope bridge which (unlike a real wobbly rope bridge) requires no Dex checks to cross - in short, I wouldn't alter game mechanics or take away dice rolls which simulate "realism" just because the character believes the illusionary thing is genuine. To each his own. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 17:57:31
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
People who try to use illusionists as artillery blast mages do the class a disservice. Illusionists will not be more powerful than other wizards if all they do is imitate other wizards; their power comes from more creative and subtle applications.
Could not agree with this position more, Ayrik. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 17:43:21
Yep - except they do not get 2 saving throws - a failed save vs. the illusion does not then allow for a second save vs the fireball. It either hits their brain full on or misses entirely.
As I said before, this is not the use of an illusionist I'd recommend, not at all interesting or creative - but it is still effective. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 17:19:36
Are you referring to this section?quote:
AD&D 2E PHB
Illusions are spells of trickery and deceit, not damage and destruction. Thus, illusions cannot be used to cause real damage. When a creature is caught in the blast of an illusionary fireball or struck by the claws of an illusionary troll, he thinks he takes damage. The DM should record the illusionary damage (but tell the player his character has taken real damage). If the character takes enough damage to ”die,” he collapses in a faint. A system shock roll should be made for the character. (His mind, believing the damage to be real, may cause his body to. cease functioning!) If the character survives, he regains consciousness after 1d3 turns with his illusionary damage healed. In most cases, the character quickly realizes that it was all an illusion.
So the fireball must be "realistic" enough to be believed, then apparently inflicts usual fireball damage (including Save for 1/2, etc), then at most forces a System Shock roll to actually kill the target. (System Shock has 65% success/survival with Con 9, 90%+ at Con 15+, in game terms this means at least 13 out of every 20 orcs will survive and go looking for the illusionist some 1d3 turns later.)
This is not as effective as a real fireball. Although, admittedly, the invoker will have little choice but to blast everything in sight while the illusionist can hide behind invisibility and fake walls and fake monsters and false imagery.
People who try to use illusionists as artillery blast mages do the class a disservice. Illusionists will not be more powerful than other wizards if all they do is imitate other wizards; their power comes from more creative and subtle applications. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 17:01:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An important difference in your example, TMM, is that (using 2E/3E rules) the invoker's enemies would be zorched, while the illusionist's enemies would only think they got zorched and eventually regain their faculties. Leaving behind a formation of angry targets will cause problems; slitting their throats before they can wake up is hardly heroic.
This is not true in 2nd Ed (I know almost nothing about specific 3rd Ed. rules). Re-read the spell descriptions & illusion rules in the players handbook. Spell simulations that are not disbelieved deal actual damage (this is why the illusions are still limited to the number of dice for spell effects based on level; the level 5 illusionist casts a level 5 illusionary fireball, not a level 10) and can also cause system shock rolls (for instant fatal illusions like a falling ceiling or pit filled with spikes).
Though really, I think its mute, since its much better to place an illusory floor over a spike filled pit than make an illusion of a spike filled pit :D |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 16:48:48
An important difference in your example, TMM, is that (using 2E/3E rules) the invoker's enemies would be zorched, while the illusionist's enemies would only think they got zorched and eventually regain their faculties. Leaving behind a formation of angry targets will cause problems; slitting their throats before they can wake up is hardly heroic. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 16:41:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Also, it should be pointed out, that the spells the invoker has memorized (assuming you use normal memorization rules and not some spell point system) have only 1 purpose. They blast at enemies. They are useless in any other circumstance. The spells up in the illusionist's mind could be used to deal with any number of circumstance, and are really only limited by player imagination.
All that said, I never use specialists anymore - since nowadays mage is allowed to use spells from every school (including illusion spells), I think the benefits of specialists are outweighed by the ability to use every school. My mages tend to be heavy on illusion & abjuration.
I agree with this in 3.5, while in Pathfinder there's a bit of a tradeoff, rather than "you can't do that!" mentality. Pathfinder made it where the specialist has to spend 2 slots to cast a restricted spell. That's it? Okay, I'll play an illusionist with Evocation restricted. When I have to blow something up, I can, but it's not what I want to focus on.
I'm not so sure about 4e, having not tried playing since very early in the edition. I'll have to check my 5e playtest documents, but I don't recall seeing an illusionist in the last one I looked at, as I couldn't arrange a group of 5e playtesters. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 16:20:57
Also, it should be pointed out, that the spells the invoker has memorized (assuming you use normal memorization rules and not some spell point system) have only 1 purpose. They blast at enemies. They are useless in any other circumstance. The spells up in the illusionist's mind could be used to deal with any number of circumstance, and are really only limited by player imagination.
All that said, I never use specialists anymore - since nowadays mage is allowed to use spells from every school (including illusion spells), I think the benefits of specialists are outweighed by the ability to use every school. My mages tend to be heavy on illusion & abjuration. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 14:20:14
Honestly, I think that Illusionists, in combat, shine as "controller" type casters. This means they aren't going to be the ones doing the most damage, but they'll certainly hinder the enemies. What's better is that, if the illusionist has an evoker/invoker (evocation school specialist) friend, then the scenario The Masked Mage brings up makes illusion quite valid.
I like them for their control and distraction aspects, but they do need some "help" when in combat situations.
/d |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 13:39:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How to play an illusionist has nothing to do with how I look at them. I'd rather do actual damage than hope someone is convinced that they are damaged. Illusionists are great for non-damaging uses, but when it comes time to blast a horde of orcs, I want real fireballs and lightning bolts, not pretend ones.
Let's take Wooly's example of an orc horde and see who'd likely be more useful, a 5th level illusionist or a 5th level invoker. :)
Against said orc horde, our invoker friend could muster 2 fireballs (Range: 60 Yards; Area: 20' radius; 5d6 damage - save 1/2), 3 flaming spheres (Range: 10 yards+50 rolling yards; Area: 3' radius; 2d4 damage - save negates) and 5 magic missiles (Range: 100 yards; Area: 3 targets; 1d4+1 damage each - no save).
Clearly this caster can do some serious damage.
Meanwhile his illusionist buddy standing next to him could call up 5 phantasmal forces (Range: 110 yards; Area: 45' square; damage as fireball above - save negates), 3 improved phantasmal forces (Range: 110 yards; Area: 450' square; damage as fireball above - save negates), and 2 spectral forces (Range: 65 yards; Area: 90' cube; damage as fireball above - save negates).
Imagine THIS caster waits for his buddy above to cast his first fireball into the horde. Then begins casting spell after spell - all with instantaneous effects - into other areas of the horde. The orcs watch as their cohorts get burned then get hit by a "fireball." Some will save, disbelieving it, but not most, and those that do have no time to warn their buddies before they drop dead from damage - real spell damage - done by an illusion. This happens 9 more times, all over the horde.
This, of course assumes you have a hard ass for a DM who only lets you cast illusions of spells you could cast if you were an equal level mage. This is NOT a rule, however, and a cool DM would let you cast illusions of more powerful spells instead, with the accompanying +2 bonus to enemies saving throws.
It also assumes that your player is not very creative :D, but I thought it made a strong point, nevertheless.
|
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 05:28:42
With Pathfinder and 3.5, I found I enjoyed illusionists. I played an elven illusionist in one game, and a gnome Beguiler in another.
When confronted with a room where we needed the enemy NOT to flee, and this was very low level (level 2, if I recall correctly), with a 15x20 room, 2 exits. We're in one, and the guards are in the other. We get the drop on them, but we can't drop them. Mr. Illusionist, who prepared Silent Image, casts "wall of Stone" to "seal" the other passage. The mooks see this and prepare for a defensive kill or be killed scenario, which my party was good with. The group positions themselves, then a timely color spray means the encounter ended with minimal damage to us (cuts & scrapes), whereas they were gone and the dungeon's alarm was not raised. Would it be shortly, yes, but by then we had an idea what to expect. Was this most of my spell allotment for the day? Yes, but at the low levels I focus on becoming good with A ranged weapon as a wizard, so even when without spells, my characters can generally help the rest of the party in battle. I also spend time crafting scrolls for future use when able, so I generally have 2-3 additional spells if I need them during the adventure/dungeon/section of the adventure. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 14:31:37
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think a lot of you are looking at illusionist all wrong, mostly because illusion is the most difficult kind of spellcasting to be good at, as a player, that is.
How to play an illusionist has nothing to do with how I look at them. I'd rather do actual damage than hope someone is convinced that they are damaged. Illusionists are great for non-damaging uses, but when it comes time to blast a horde of orcs, I want real fireballs and lightning bolts, not pretend ones. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 08:15:00
It occurred to me that a good deal of the people on here might be newer to the game than old 1st ed. rules so I thought I'd put the interesting particulars of their description of 'em up on here.
To be an illusionist, a character must have a minimum intelligence of 15 and a minimum dexterity of 16 (a high manual dexterity is required in casting of the spells used by this class).
An important difference between illusionists and magic-users is that the former do not gain any experience bonus for having high scores in their required abilities of intelligence and dexterity.
The power of illusionists due to their spells is offset, however, by the limitations placed upon the magic items they can use. The magical items usable by illusionist class characters are enumerated below:
- all potions not restricted to fighters only
- illusionist scrolls and magic-user scrolls which contain spells usable by illusionists
- all rings
- rod of cancellation, staff of striking, and wands of enemy detection, fear, illusion, magic detection, metal 8 mineral detection, secret door 8 trap detection, wonder
- miscellaneous magic items usable by every class of characters, crystal balls (but not with any added powers), a11 robes (excluding robe of the arch-magi), and books and similar written works readable by magic-users
- artifacts which are not proscribed items with respect to illusionists (such as armor, swords, axes, etc.)
- magic daggers
Illusionist magic was a different animal. The best comparison I can think of is southern magic. Other magic-users could not read their spells or scroll, and vice versa.
However, once they could cast 7th level illusionist spells at 14th level, they became able to cast 1st-level magic-user spells. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 07:19:55
I think a lot of you are looking at illusionist all wrong, mostly because illusion is the most difficult kind of spellcasting to be good at, as a player, that is. At low levels, an illusionist vastly more versatile than ANY other specialists, unless you are playing a hack/slash/rest & heal campaign - which are not worth the time to comment on, IMO. Then for a while, their spells don't grow in power as quickly as their counterparts, but still have the same bang for their buck... growing gradually less easy to disbelieve. A high level illusionist becomes a force to be reckoned with.
Also, Illusionists were NOT just another specialist class wizard which ended up unbalanced. They were a special class of wizard, which later became a type of specialist.
Remember, also, that at no time should an illusionist say, "Oh, by the way everyone, I'm an Illusioninst." Telling players that they are up against an illusionist is like telling them that their friend is really a doppleganger - its an instant game changer. But even should they know its an illusionist, that doesn't mean their characters succeed in disbelieving a given illusion spell.
There are a few articles about this in the old dragon magazines. "Is it really real?" in Dragon 66. And "To believe or not to believe" in 129. I remember another in later 3rd E dragon but I don't know which... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 17:59:26
Agreed, the 4E game mechanic is better, though not perfect. It basically shifts the "realism" of the illusion onto the caster instead of the target, basically analogous to a "combat" mechanic resolving an attack vs some kind of "armor class". This can be problematic when affecting multiple targets who have dissimilar susceptibilities to the same illusion ... but it's still a better approach than the default pre-4E illusion rules. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 17:01:43
4e handled Illusionists better then previous,editions. Illusions were usually attacks against will and it hit aka you believed or it didn't and you missed, no double chance to dodge the attack aka disbieve and then normal defence.
4e had Wizards of the Mage build of the Illusion school and of the Nethermancer school. Nethermancers were basically those that in 3e terms specialized in the shadow subschool of the Illusion school, with the edition that they drew on the Shadow power source as well as the arcane. Could create a,powerful semipermant Shadow Creature to serve you. My favourite type of 4e wizard was the Nethermancer. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 15:06:57
Indeed it would be great to see the Nimbrese priests of Leira survive. Though instead of the feywild, I'd rather have them shifted to the Demiplane of Nightmares. Instead of breaking their minds and losing their sanity during their ordeals in that plane, they came through toughened, and more powerful. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 14:42:20
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
There are many ways illusionists can be very useful in combat, yet we rarely see them being utilized in FR novels. Outside FR though, illusionists are given enough importance. To name a few, there’s Durzo Blint from Weeks’s The Night Angels trilogy, Laromendis from Feist’s The Demonwar Saga, and Jane from Meyer’s The Twilight Saga. Laromendis created monstrous illusions to distract the hoards of demons who came to invade their planet, while his fellow taredhel spellcasters blasted the demons. Jane had no equal; she could inflict illusory pain to anyone, save perhaps her twin brother, who can numb any target, including himself. In fact, had she had the slightest inclination, she could have replaced Aro.
In the Realms, the best examples we have are the Zulkirs of Illusion and their lackeys, the Halruaan illusionists who vanished after the SP, and a few other illusionist archmages who are in hiding. In the Haunted Lands trilogy, it didn’t really help that the wizards from the School of Illusion were only used to create that spell of concealment on the entire army as they marched to face Tam’s legions. There’s one time when Jhesri and few wizards created illusory images of the zulkirs, which was helpful in a few heartbeats as the opposing army felt fear and hesitated to advance…But then there’s still so much more the illusionists could have done. In the battle at the Keep of Sorrows, for instance, the Red Wizards from the school of Illusion could have provided sufficient distraction---illusory monsters, demons, blinding light, or stomach-wrenching putridity---giving the evokers a second or two to blast their enemies to pieces. Or, given that their spells are hardly effective against undead, the illusionists could have killed scores of their “live” foes by creating illusion of drowning, where they would simply stop breathing.
Why, then, do we rarely see illusionists in the novels?
On this topic, I'd love to see a story based around the most fervent illusionists in the realm. The Nimbraii followers of Leira who were shifted over to the feywild when the spellplague hit  . Of course, they didn't know that their island (which is filled with fey beings and animals, such as the many pegasi herds) was similar to Evermeet and had been pulled over during the earlier Sundering..... primarily because the Elves hadn't realized they'd pulled it over either. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 14:22:53
Aye, and I edited it. She's not what Torilians could call an Illusionist, as the system of magic in that setting is a bit different from the Realms'. Still, illusion is one of her fortes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 14:12:04
But it wasn't the illusion that killed the foe, it just distracted him... Granted, it still showed the utility of illusions in combat, but it's not accurate to say its what slew the bad guy. |
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