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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 02:28:03
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There are many ways illusionists can be very useful in combat, yet we rarely see them being utilized in FR novels. Outside FR though, illusionists are given enough importance. To name a few, there's Durzo Blint from Weeks's The Night Angels trilogy, Laromendis from Feist's The Demonwar Saga, and Jane from Meyer's The Twilight Saga. Laromendis created monstrous illusions to distract the hoards of demons who came to invade their planet, while his fellow taredhel spellcasters blasted the demons. Jane had no equal; she could inflict illusory pain to anyone, save perhaps her twin brother, who can numb any target, including himself. In fact, had she had the slightest inclination, she could have replaced Aro.
In the Realms, the best examples we have are the Zulkirs of Illusion and their lackeys, the Halruaan illusionists who vanished after the SP, and a few other illusionist archmages who are in hiding. In the Haunted Lands trilogy, it didn't really help that the wizards from the School of Illusion were only used to create that spell of concealment on the entire army as they marched to face Tam's legions. There's one time when Jhesri and few wizards created illusory images of the zulkirs, which was helpful in a few heartbeats as the opposing army felt fear and hesitated to advance. But then there's still so much more the illusionists could have done. In the battle at the Keep of Sorrows, for instance, the Red Wizards from the school of Illusion could have provided sufficient distraction---illusory monsters, demons, blinding light, or stomach-wrenching putridity---giving the evokers a second or two to blast their enemies to pieces. Or, given that their spells are hardly effective against undead, the illusionists could have killed scores of their livingť foes by creating illusion of drowning, where they would simply stop breathing.
Why, then, do we rarely see illusionists in the novels?
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Jan 2013 14:53:23
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 03:44:08
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Illusions played a pivotal role in the final battle of the Hordewars.
Read Crusade.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:10:54
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I haven't read that novel yet, but yes, I recall that scene. Someone mentioned that here long ago. Azoun's troops dug holes designed as traps for the Tuigan, and to make them inconspicuous, the wizards disguised them through powerful illusion. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:31:00
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Durzo wan't really an illusionist pre-se, more of a "talented" assassin who utilized illusions to catch his opponents off guard to stab the in the back (or poison them, or gorrote them, or...)
The main problem is you have to back up your illusions with something more powerful or have some "umph!" A couple of illusion spells that I'v found to be a great deal of fun were Illusory Pit and laugh as the PCs flails on the ground believing they are falling helplessly and stuns for 1 round when done. Good stuff.
I think if you really want to utilize the full benefits of being a "sneaky" mage or Illusionist then you need to go Beguiler. They have quite a few good class features, can cast in some armor, gain SA damage, and their spell list is practically tailored for illusions, Enchantments, and other "mind effecting" stuff. Not to mention they have great skill list and have Use Magic Device, which allows them all the nice, nifty wands wizards can use.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:42:42
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| I appreciate them, personally. The archmage of a drow city I made for a game is an illusionist, and the most respected spellcaster in the city. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Durzo wan't really an illusionist pre-se, more of a "talented" assassin who utilized illusions to catch his opponents off guard to stab the in the back (or poison them, or gorrote them, or...)
I know. It's in the same way Dorian is not a seer/prophet per se---he can use his vir for other things... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I appreciate them, personally. The archmage of a drow city I made for a game is an illusionist, and the most respected spellcaster in the city.
That's interesting.
I think one problem that writers or editors, not just those working for WotC, [feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken] see in utilizing illusionists in combat is that for a battle to be visually appealing, it has to be gory, flashy, explosive, and as real as they can be---something the illusionists might spoil. Though I think the gory and explosive elements can still be retained so long as the illusionists are used together with evokers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:09:40
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(Dennis — your text is full of garbage characters; all your apostrophes look like ’, your quotes like “liveâ€. I'm using default encodings and fonts.)
Illusionists have always played second fiddle to "real" wizards, from 2E onwards where they were just one of many specialist wizard types. Why make an illusion of a fireball when a real one is about as easy to cast, doesn't inflict illusory damage, and cannot be disbelieved? If you're going to be a specialist anyhow, then why not be an invoker and cast your *real* fireballs even better? Basically - players and readers (and authors?) tend to really want a wizard who's a mighty blaster, illusion magics are too variable and unreliable.
I'm not trying to belittle illusion - I personally think it is among the most versatile and powerful forms of magic in D&D, on par with the other "soft" magics of enchantment, divination, and alteration. The sad truth is that it doesn't lend itself well to direct and immediate applications like combat and it requires constant creativity on the part of the illusionist/player/writer to be truly effective. If a player is going to cast a 3rd level illusion then he (somewhat reasonably) expects it to be roughly equal to a 3rd level fireball in terms of raw power ... this is a common but clumsy brute-force approach which ignores the fact that illusion draws power from subtlety, deception, and misdirection. A trio of illusory beholders silently drifting towards the target might be much more effective. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Mar 2011 05:09:57 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
(Dennis � your text is full of garbage characters; all your apostrophes look like ’, your quotes like “live�. I'm using default encodings and fonts.)
Illusionists have always played second fiddle to "real" wizards, from 2E onwards where they were just one of many specialist wizard types. Why make an illusion of a fireball when a real one is about as easy to cast, doesn't inflict illusory damage, and cannot be disbelieved? If you're going to be a specialist anyhow, then why not be an invoker and cast your *real* fireballs even better? Basically - players and readers (and authors?) tend to really want a wizard who's a mighty blaster, illusion magics are too variable and unreliable.
I'm not trying to belittle illusion - I personally think it is among the most versatile and powerful forms of magic in D&D, on par with the other "soft" magics of enchantment, divination, and alteration. The sad truth is that it doesn't lend itself well to direct and immediate applications like combat and it requires constant creativity on the part of the illusionist/player/writer to be truly effective. If a player is going to cast a 3rd level illusion then he (somewhat reasonably) expects it to be roughly equal to a 3rd level fireball in terms of raw power ... this is a common but clumsy brute-force approach which ignores the fact that illusion draws power from subtlety, deception, and misdirection. A trio of illusory beholders silently drifting towards the target might be much more effective.
Well, why use a fireball when you can kill your enemies, especially the non-magic users, by creating illusions that would make them stop breathing?!
*My posts don't appear to have those characters on my end. So I don't know why it's showing on your end. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:51:41
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The thing about Illusions is that few see them to the end.
Someone will try to make Illusions of only the most quickly valuable things: fireballs, Prismatic Walls, etc.
My first spell casting character in AD&D was Dalor Darden...and he was an Illusionist first and foremost!
Illusions begin with subtle manipulation of surroundings, slowly pulling the target into what seems to be absolutely normal; though by then his entire environment is contrived and controlled by the Illusionist. The ceiling he is walking in, the walls beside him, the floor beneath him...and then when the Illusions LEAVE, he tends to disbelief what is real!
One example I'll give:
Dalor, while using a screening spell (essentially an illusion of a wall...as it will remain whereas Invisibility can be disrupted), slowly works a band of ogres into his grasp. The tree that the Ogres find that has bountiful fruit on it (Illusion), the small water stream running by them (illusion), the winds and clouds coming in (depth illusion), the rain that begins to fall (illusion)...THEN Dalor steps forth, commands the rains to cease and clouds to dissipate, the tree withers (back to its stumpy real form) and the water is commanded to cease (the dry bed is restored)...Dalor speaks:
"I am the God Dalor Darden! These lands are MINE to command, and should you wish to remain within them you will kneel to me!" The first ogre, feeling brave despite the miracles he has just seen, stands and hefts a spear to throw...the spear erupts in flame and is quickly dropped; then Dalor actually commands the shadows to devour the foolish ogre...and so the shadows begin to close in upon the beast and he begins to flee; only to drop dead (from a Phantasmal Killer). "Kneel fools...else join your foolish brother!"
Viola...Dalor has a tribe of Ogres to command after only converting one small warband among the whole tribe.
Illusion has always been my favorite magic...but it is a subtle and patient magic that entails deep thought and rarely flash. Flash is for those wizards who lack depth of thought even though they may possess raw brains.
I LOVE Illusions. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:59:26
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I like flashy and explosive magics too, but I prefer variety more. And Illusion would provide just that. Why limit oneself to one when he can have all? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 06:07:30
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Well, that's what I was trying to say, Dennis. Illusions can create (or disguise) spiked pits, falling ceilings, large bodyguards, etc. But illusionary suffocation/paralysis/death sorts of stuff have a fair chance of failing when used in such a blunt fashion, why not actually blast the target with real (and certain) death instead? Some players are brilliantly creative with illusions, but the vast majority think at least a little in terms of min/max combat power and are very reluctant to "waste" spell slots on difficult uncertainties. I think perhaps players tend to resist options which involve conditional variables and (worst of all!) the DM's approval/judgement ... they want absolutes which are predictable and cannot be used against them.
I really don't know why authors don't choose to describe more illusions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 06:24:22
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Illusionists can be used as supporting casters of evokers and necromancers. It's one thing when an evoker tries to blast a ready enemy, who might nullify his spell, and another when he faces one who is preoccupied in fighting an illusion created by the evoker's ally. Even if the enemy manages to shatter the illusion, the evoker already gains a second or two, and that's all he needs to successfully incinerate or disintegrate his foe. A simple distraction, in short. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 08:13:14
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Illusion can be used in a support role, useful for simple distraction. That almost seems like a tacit admission that illusionists are inferior to "real" spellcasters, Dennis. Why isn't the reverse just as valid? A single invoker supporting a group of illusionists? You see frost, fire, and lightning coming at you ... do you take cover or do you disbelieve*? One of those incoming spells is indeed lethal, regardless of what you think ... but which? Even a patch of illusory smoke, fog, flame, or darkness is incredibly useful; it doesn't matter if you believe it'll hurt you or not, you're still effectively blinded by it.
* For the record, in my gaming the act of disbelieving an illusion means you attempt to ignore it; you'll confidently stand there and let the illusion of a dragon or fireball consume you, after all, if you allow even the tiniest amount of self-doubt you're vulnerable to the illusion's power. This is bad when you attempt to disbelieve something which is very real.
This all assumes the only application for spellcasting is combat. This is largely the case in many D&D games where non-combat spellcasting is primarily preparation for combat or healing after combat. There are some games where combat is not emphasized or is even a rare occurrence; these allow an illusionist to really shine. FR novels fall closer to the latter category, combat tends to be infrequent and characters spend most of their time doing other things (even if only travelling to the next combat) - so again, I'm not sure why we don't see illusionists in novels. Perhaps the authors fall prey to the same kewlness/powergamer instincts as the rest of us, or perhaps they understand the market wants blasters, I don't know. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 08:58:56
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Of course, the reverse can still be applied. When evokers try to blast enemy spellcasters, the said foes would be busy either shielding themselves or nullifying the evokers' spells; and then the illusionists can suffocate them; and their enemies would be dead before they realize what happens. So either way is fine: they can be the distraction, or they can strike the final blow. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 12:54:06
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I think Illusion spells definitly have their place, espically in defense. Yet an Illusionist (wizard specialty) needs help in closing the deal. They need some backup in dealing with monsters (if your in a combative encounter) that your Illusions just can't measure up to. This is why I like the beguiler better as they have the best of what an Illusionist has to offer, some damage dealing stuff, and use magic device for that flashy magic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 14:57:01
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I'm not a fan of illusions in combat for the reason Arik stated: why hope to convince someone he's hurt, when you can hurt him for real?
Actually, illusions can be useful in combat, I just wouldn't use them offensively. Make an illusion of difficult terrain, forcing your opponent to limit his movement. Make an illusion of additional allies, making your foe react to threats that aren't really there. Make one of your own guys seem like more of a threat, so that your foe has to concentrate more on him than he otherwise would... Lots of support roles in combat, just not so much to do as a combatant.
I would also use illusions to disguise terrain, as someone mentioned. Hide those pit traps, make the narrow rickety bridge seem sturdy (or vice versa), etc.
One of my fave ideas for an illusion: PCs are fighting a bad guy, who turns and flees down a corridor. Said corridor has many bends, so the bad guy is often out of sight of the pursuing PCs. They reach the end of the corridor and find an open door, leading outside. The bad guy is nowhere in sight... What the PCs don't know is that in one of the bends of the corridor was another passage, hidden by an illusion. The bad guy ducked down that way and is even now fleeing in another direction. Even if the PCs find that passageway, he'll be long gone. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 18:12:35
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| Everybody loves invisibility, blur, mirror image, and wraithform. They're easily described and you don't have to be an illusionist to cast them. In my experience, hardly anyone makes use of the vague spectral and phantasmal spells, even though these are the most versatile of an illusionist's spells. I suppose these aren't used in novels because the author has to always qualify them by saying "protagonist casts this illusion spell to shape that unique effect in the villain's mind", rather than just saying "protagonist blasts villain". I think there's also an insinuation that anyone who falls for an illusion is mentally inferior, rather than an emphasis on the illusionist's masterful skill and creativity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 01:56:12
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| Hundreds of Orcs and blade barriers... disguised as elves.... |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:44:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I think there's also an insinuation that anyone who falls for an illusion is mentally inferior, rather than an emphasis on the illusionist's masterful skill and creativity.
You can put it that way, or that the illusionist's ability is far insurmountable for the victim. In Undead, Dmitra cast an illusion on Malark in the hope of killing him. But the bastard monk eventually realized the phoniness of his vision, and thus escaped from near death. Had that been Mythrellen who cast the illusion, I doubt Malark, despite his superior age and arguably keener mind, could stand a chance. Dmitra herself admitted that her ability is nothing compared to her former master. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, illusions can be useful in combat, I just wouldn't use them offensively.
In war, every man has to be utilized. What happens when some of the enemies survived the illusion-cloaked pits? Let the illusionists sit back and relax and leave the fighting to their allies, even if they are horribly outnumbered? No. They still have to fight. Make an illusion of ear-splitting keening or howling to stun the foes and let the soldiers hack them and evokers blast them. Or suffocate them. Or make a illusory images of their generals/officers, ordering them to retreat, cut their own heads, or whatever the illusionists please or deem necessary. Illusionists can be very useful, but sadly, we rarely see that in books. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, illusions can be useful in combat, I just wouldn't use them offensively.
In war, every man has to be utilized. What happens when some of the enemies survived the illusion-cloaked pits? Let the illusionists sit back and relax and leave the fighting to their allies, even if they are horribly outnumbered? No. They still have to fight. Make an illusion of ear-splitting keening or howling to stun the foes and let the soldiers hack them and evokers blast them. Or suffocate them. Or make a illusory images of their generals/officers, ordering them to retreat, cut their own heads, or whatever the illusionists please or deem necessary. Illusionists can be very useful, but sadly, we rarely see that in books.
In war, not every man has to be utilized in direct combat. Your army won't get very far without healer/medics, without cooks, without quartermasters, without messengers, without smiths, without any of the other thousands of necessary support roles fulfilled.
Even in combat, there are still varying roles. Light infantry, heavy infantry, cavalry, artillery (be it magical or mundane), scouts, etc... Just because I'm saying that illusionists aren't all that hot on the front lines, it doesn't mean they're useless. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:45:40
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Oh, but there's nothing else left for them to be useful but to confront their enemies. You can't expect them to be healers. Or worse, cooks. What other use do you have in mind for them, eh? Surely not the latter. =) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Oh, but there's nothing else left for them to be useful but to confront their enemies. You can't expect them to be healers. Or worse, cooks. What other use do you have in mind for them, eh? Surely not the latter. =)
I dunno, maybe the stuff I listed in my post at 14:57? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:43:32
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I might be reading too much into it, but it seems to me that the death of Mytherellen reflects the author's view on illusionists: maybe for him they're so inconsequential that their most powerful practitioner didn't even deserve a proper death---just mentioned in passing that Tam killed her. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 06:01:18
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As I've said: the intent of Illusionist magic shouldn't be to cause the target to believe the illusion...but to doubt reality.
Illusion magic is actually my favorite, and I have spent hours upon days upon weeks, months and years figuring out elaborate uses for them.
The basic principle of my using Illusionist magic isn't to create something out of thin air and force an enemy to believe it; but to twist their surroundings far before they have a chance to doubt the magic...and thus when things "change" they are actually only going back to being real...and THAT is what the target will try to disbelieve...making my Illusionist appear to be far more than a "mere illusionist" with his magic.
Did David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty vanish? Hells no...but the conditions he set up made it appear so.
That is what Illusion is about...the warping and twisting of what is real to the point where the target can't tell between truth and lies. Essentially, Illusion is Acid. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 13:36:28
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For those of you who recall visiting the WotC Character Optimization forums back in the 3.0/3.5 days, you'll recall the "Killer Gnome" build which was one one of the most broken and powerful wizard builds in existence.
It involved abusing the Shadow Magic spell mechanics (an immensely versatile suite of spells with weakened gameplay effects) with Gnome racial game mechanics (access to specific feats and PrC's) to make simulated Shadow spells even more powerful than reality.
By 10th level or so, you were a Death Machine of epic proportions. Nobody scoffed at these illusionists ... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 18:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Snow
For those of you who recall visiting the WotC Character Optimization forums back in the 3.0/3.5 days, you'll recall the "Killer Gnome" build which was one one of the most broken and powerful wizard builds in existence.
It involved abusing the Shadow Magic spell mechanics (an immensely versatile suite of spells with weakened gameplay effects) with Gnome racial game mechanics (access to specific feats and PrC's) to make simulated Shadow spells even more powerful than reality.
By 10th level or so, you were a Death Machine of epic proportions. Nobody scoffed at these illusionists ...
Isn't that "build" one that relies on damage to defeat enemies? Not manipulation or actual Illusion...but quasi-real to real spell damage? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 18:41:49
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Hmphf, the killer gnome wouldn't have a chance against Pun-Pun the über kobold. But these characters are just munchkins ... any DM who blindly obeys/allows such ridiculous application of the rules gets exactly what he deserves. D&D is supposed to stimulate creativity and imagination, not criminal abuse of bureaucratic legal loopholes.
This munchkin gnome is not a viable representative for illusion magic or the illusionist class unless immersed within an entirely munchkin setting.
Remember that illusionists can also cast other magic. A 10th level illusionist can cast (or pretend to cast) spells such as enlarge, domination, polymorph, stoneskin, teleport, and monster summoning. Are they real or illusory? Perhaps summoned creatures are buffed with blur, invisibility, or mirror image? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 11:49:13
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I wouldn't care if the illusionists master and use spells other than illusions, so long as they have competent abjurers as allies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 17:59:23
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quote:
Dennis
I wouldn't care if the illusionists master and use spells other than illusions, so long as they have competent abjurers as allies.
If this is an admission that illusionists aren't as capable as other wizards then you've answered your OP question. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Illusionists: Unappreciated?
