| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 22:47:25
I considered just adding this to the bottom of the Evil Fey scroll, but I thought it may be worthy of its own. Following through on my musings about evil-minded fey, I began to wonder. Are there Undead Fey? Or does something inherent in their make-up prevent this. I can easily imagine a herd(?) of ghoulish centaurs or cloud/swarm of ghostly sprites running amok under the thrall of some evil Necromancer's dominion. I mean, they have flesh and blood and bodies that could be animated, but what about the more powerful, sentient undead? If I were a vampire, I imagine that sylvan blood would be quite tasty (Six-pack of Pixies anyone?). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 05:58:02
Indeed she was- until partway through Elminster in Myth Drannor. Now she is mortal again. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 05:25:38
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Srinshee is a baelnorn*? I believe the earliest lore described her as a banshee, or perhaps even a unique spectre or ghost.
* The FR wiki page says baelnorn. I'm gonna look it up in my ancient lore.
She was both a Wardnorn [of the Vault of Ages] and a Lorenorn [for the armathors and Court Magi], which are specialised types of baelnorn, as noted in Cormanthyr. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 05:02:00
Srinshee is a baelnorn*? I believe the earliest lore described her as a banshee, or perhaps even a unique spectre or ghost.
* The FR wiki page says baelnorn. I'm gonna look it up in my ancient lore. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 04:55:56
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I may be sorely mistaken here - but I recall, perhaps, a baelnorn requires sustenance from powerful magic (inside a mythal for instance) to continue existing?
Yes. Baelnorn are sustained by magic.
quote:
I'll attempt to merge all this Elminster-lich chatter here, rather than splitting it between scrolls (this one and Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? - Page 7).
Also:quote:
The Lady Herald in Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010) - Page 95
And hello again, everyone.
Sage, Ed dropped me a quick e-mail in response to your lichdom queries, and here it is:
Hoo boy. Thick NDAs looming all around on this one, but I can go far enough to say: Elminster is well aware of (and possesses the notes, spells, and necessary "ingredients"/apparatus for) many methods of attaining lichnee status, that he's acquired and studied over the years. Thus far he has actively dabbled in none of them, and that's due in part to the silver fire and active Weave flows and use not mixing well with lichdom. Which is where I'd best stop spilling beans for now . . .
So saith Ed. Who has obviously worked all of this out and communicated it with designers working at TSR (and possibly, later, at WotC), but just as obviously isn't free to share much more.
Yet.
Heh-heh.
love,
THO
And with respect to this, I'm more inclined, now, to believe my theory about a human-baelnorn form has further grounding in the lore. We know El's studied and acquired components involved in many lichnee processes. Now, couple that with the fact that El also studied under the Srinshee, a baelnorn of particular power and spirit, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Sage of Shadowdale has either adapted such knowledge for himself [or would, should it become necessary], or at least thought about the possibilities of applying what he learned from the Srinshee, to the human [Chosen] form. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 03:51:34
I may be sorely mistaken here - but I recall, perhaps, a baelnorn requires sustenance from powerful magic (inside a mythal for instance) to continue existing?
I'll attempt to merge all this Elminster-lich chatter here, rather than splitting it between scrolls (this one and Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? - Page 7).
Also:quote:
The Lady Herald in Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010) - Page 95
And hello again, everyone.
Sage, Ed dropped me a quick e-mail in response to your lichdom queries, and here it is:
Hoo boy. Thick NDAs looming all around on this one, but I can go far enough to say: Elminster is well aware of (and possesses the notes, spells, and necessary "ingredients"/apparatus for) many methods of attaining lichnee status, that he's acquired and studied over the years. Thus far he has actively dabbled in none of them, and that's due in part to the silver fire and active Weave flows and use not mixing well with lichdom. Which is where I'd best stop spilling beans for now . . .
So saith Ed. Who has obviously worked all of this out and communicated it with designers working at TSR (and possibly, later, at WotC), but just as obviously isn't free to share much more.
Yet.
Heh-heh.
love,
THO
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 03:38:26
And your own musings Sage (on my musings) have lead to further musings of my own (we muse well together, don't we?) 
Perhaps because of its nature, the Lich-like state of a Baelnorn is what something Fey-blooded can achieve. True (Feywild) Fay are immortal - something within the Feywild itself sustains them. Elves and Prime-Fey require some sort of connection to the Feywild to help maintain their own longevity (note the comparatively short lifespans of the Drow), but because they are still creatures native to the Prime Material they must eventually die.
So what if an Elf can 'tap-into' the natural immortality that true Fey have? This is why I think Baelnorn should be 'Undying' (positive-energy undead) - through some sort of ritual they received an immense burst of Radiant energy, which links to their core being (Fay) and allows them to 'go on', even after their mortal shell has perished.
Fay themselves are immortal, because they are really just 'spirits' (all outsiders technically are) - its not the Elf that dies, just his body. This is why some Elves have been able to prolong their natural lives way beyond the norm - by falling into a hibernation-like 'Deep Revery', they don't squander what little 'radiance' they have left.
So an Elf/Eladrin is supposed to be immortal, but the contamination of the Material world makes their physical forms give-out, at which time the ordinary thing to do would be to 'pass on to Arvandor'. With that infusion of Radiance (probably a divine/High magic Ritual), they 'jump-start' their bodies into lasting a time a longer.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a demi-Baelnorn (you know, like a demi-Lich, after even the mighty magics give out and the Liches body crumbles to dust).
And this post also made me realize that Elven High Magic is akin to Southern/Thayan magic - its more then likely that true Elven Magic combines divine and arcane magic (which explains how both Corellon and Thoth can still be 'gods of magic' in a Mystra-dominated world).
You know... I just had an interesting thought for the other fey thread... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 03:09:37
I suppose only time will tell if El still retains some legacy of his (Mystra's) former powers ... it may simply be unnecessary for him to lich up because he's still unaging/immortal. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 02:35:54
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I suppose an indomitable desire to live forever could be an essential component of liching up. Without this strong will (or desire) you might fail, ie: simply die.
Another possibility occurs to me... largely from a re-reading of 1e's Lords of Darkness. [Note: Quoted material from aforementioned tome, appears in italics below.]
Maybe Elminster could, effectively, become a pseudo-lich. Pseudo-liches can "resemble real liches in all characteristics except energy draining and the possession of a phylactery." It's also said that they aren't affected by turning and can have offspring. Also, "They are created when a very powerful magic-user is fanatically pursuing a certain goal at the time of death." We know, from Elminster Must Die, that El was intensely curious about both the effects of the Spellplague upon himself and the Simbul. And his focus on maintaining the Simbul, I suppose, could also qualify as "fanatically pursuing a certain goal." Further, "Some inexplicable force, perhaps due to years of exposure to magic, allows the wizard's soul to inhabit the shell of its dead body until the goal is achieved or the body crumbles to dust." Or, perhaps, as a result of the Spellplague ravaging the body of an ancient Chosen of Mystra like Elminster. Hmmm.
As I said above, we really don't have any specific information on just how the Spellplague has affected the dynamics and nature of the powers of the [former] Chosen. So an exposure to such heavy arcane circumstances, coupled with El's consuming desire for magicks and his passion for the Simbul, could have saturated his soul, to the point of maintaining it after body-death.
Additionally, we're told that "Such pseudo-liches exist only 1d100 years beyond death, cannot successfully prepare for lichdom while in this state, and are entirely intent on their research or goal." Which could help to underline why somehow like Elminster would actually avoid the more nefarious lichnee process. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 02:00:48
I suppose an indomitable desire to live forever could be an essential component of liching up. Without this strong will (or desire) you might fail, ie: simply die. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 01:50:08
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It's pretty obvious that El is unlikely to fare well if he performs the magics himself, so (assuming such is at all possible) somebody else should be casting the necessary liching spells in El's stead. Apparently El doesn't sink into madness whenever magics are activated by/on him by means outside his own spellcasting. The question then becomes: is there some reason why El still doesn't qualify to lich?
Hmmm. I'd assume only Ed could really answer that.
But if I had to speculate, I'd say that given the uncertainties of the arcane in the post-Spellplague period, the impact of the loss of the Weave, the absence of Mystra, and the general instabilities inherent in old El's state of mind [at times]... perhaps it's not really a question about whether he can qualify any more, but rather, would he want to?
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 01:31:56
It's pretty obvious that El is unlikely to fare well if he performs the magics himself, so (assuming such is at all possible) somebody else should be casting the necessary liching spells in El's stead. Apparently El doesn't sink into madness whenever magics are activated by/on him by means outside his own spellcasting. The question then becomes: is there some reason why El still doesn't qualify to lich? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 00:21:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would drop-back to 2e lore for that one - Undead created through Priestly magic* (and Baelnorn are consecrated by the Seldarine) use Positive energy to sustain them (like a mummy).
I know that was changed in 3e - Positive-energy undead became unwieldy mechanically. I believe this may be why the 'Undying' classification was created (they are NOT 'undead' in the normal sense). Baelnorn should have been Undying in the 3e ruleset (which they probably didn't do because they didn't want to buy another box of kleenex for the grognard/lore-junky crowd).
*Edit:
This just reminded me of a clarification I wanted to make in my last post in another thread : When I say 'priestly magic', I mean GOOD priestly magic. Evil Priests probably draw their power from the 'dark side' (Umbral, Maleficium, whatever), which is why they suck at Healing (in WoW, a Priest that choose the 'dark path' got almost no healing - it was VERY hard to find anyone with a high-level healer-priest).
Edit2:
We can use non-FR rules to back this hypothesis up some-what. In SJ (and I think maybe in PS and/or RL - not sure), a priest could cast up to 3rd level spells without contact with his god. The premise there is that low-level spells like that are actually channeled from within, drawing on the priests own store of Divine (Radiant) Energy. One of the best-kept secrets of 'The Gods' is that you really don't need them - the power lies inside all of us. Only when you get into the more powerful magics do you need 'divine help'. This is why a priest following the 'dark path' can still cast some healing magic.
Just to deviate, slightly, from what Markus said above... I've often tinkered with alternate possibilities.
It concerns the fact that Baelnorns shouldn't be considered as the elven equivalent of a lich only. They are something more, something uniquely elven, as the text from Cormanthyr indicates.
Perhaps the concept of a lich, as an undead creature which draws its power from the Negative Energy Plane, may form the basis upon which the baelnorn is built. But that's where the similarities end. Their being "sustained by magic", as noted in Cormanthyr, suggests that something beyond the mere scope of Negative Energy is responsible for sustaining the baelnorn. However, at the same time, we know baelnorn do suffer from degeneration, like most undead. So that may be as far as their undead state would seem to go -- a consequence, perhaps, of their connection to the Negative Energy Plane. Beyond that, and with them being "sustained by magic", we see the elements of their existence which differentiate the baelnorn, thus making it an exclusively elven form of undead, when compared to the standard lich. And it is this unique status that still results in them being granted "life of a sort beyond nature" that isn't specifically undead in the style of a standard lich. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 19:06:20
No, I haven't read that. I may have to add it to my already never-ending list of reading "to-do"s. It's funny you said that, cause most of what I wrote earlier came from SEVERAL of my sources, and was just the basic gist of what they all said. I suspect a lot of them use the same sources for the research, so it's not surprising, really. There's not a whole lot of reliable fairy lore books out there, from what I've seen. Have you ever read the Pressed Fairy Book? That one is friggin hilarious- has lots of funny illustrations and "notes" about the fairies in it. I have a calender based on it somewhere, too, that I kept for the pics and some of the "fairy holidays" in the dates. Like the "nipple-pinching festival". Somehow, that has a very fey ring to it, lol!! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:47:50
The owner of the company was a good friend of mine - we had a terrific group of players and an Ed-caliber GM who was truly amazing.
I was indeed fortunate. 
I only thought you were quoting that particular source because I was re-reading it the other night, and what you typed there looked like the 'Cliff's Notes' version of precisely what that source says.
--- sorry.
Have you read Saga of the pliocene Exile? I have a feeling you would immensely enjoy it. Faery-lore with a bit of a SciFi twist (and if you believe in fairies, as you do, it gives some nice plausibility to their authenticity). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:39:03
Not actually familiar with that book, MT. I was speaking from my (ahem) deep delving into fey lore and Celtic myth stemming from a long practice as a Wiccan. Lots of good esoteric books deal heavily with the mythological aspects (gods, fairy lore, ancient rites and ideologies) which comes in handy at the game table too. Celtic Magic by DJ Conway and the Encyclopedia of Fairies are two of my faves for this. And I just remembered a great article in Dragon- can't remember the issue # ATM- that had a stat write-up Nuckalavee and several other RL mythological beasties, most rather nasty.
You are lucky to have gotten that far, MT. I suck at design, but I love creating lore. That's why I usually borrow any stats I can use, and do all the lore myself when working on my HB world. It's worked quite well so far. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:20:57
Yes, I too have The Leprechaun's Kingdom. 
That was the 'fast & dirty' answer.
I was tasked to create the Faery supplement for Chivalry & Sorcery for FGU, which is one of the most realistic (and almost unplayabley complicated) rules systems out there. I spent a year and half heavily researching fey, to get them 'perfect' for the game-system, during which time the company moved to the west Coast and my efforts never saw fruition.
And so ended my dreams of becoming a game designer, at the tender age of 16.
I did get to playtest many of their games though, and quite a few of my suggestions made it into various supplements - my one claim to fame.
The Baobhan Sith (pronounced Bavaan Shee) is a Celtic vampiric fey, which dances with its victims and absorbs their blood through that contact (through the skin). Celts campaign Sourcebook, pg. 42
Note that creature is fey, but NOT undead (AFAIK - I've never meat one). EDIT: just checked Folklore sources (rather then D&D, which also misspelled it), and it is indeed a type of undead. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:30:14
MT- you are slightly off on your translation of the banshee. It actually means "woman of the sihde(mound)" a "fairy woman", not neccessarily evil. They are connected in myth to "Tir 'Na Mban" or the "land of women" of celtic mythology, as guardians and teachers, who later evolved into the keening spirits of Irish folklore. Often seen washing burial shrouds by rivers, and it was said that if they saw you, then you would soon die. Also that they appeared before or during a death in a family, which might be where the idea of them being evil came from, since most people associate death with evil due to Judeo-Christian influences. So their association with death naturally evolved into an undead fey type in D&D lore. And being undead, they have somehow become equated with "evil" fey as a result, but this was not always the case. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 16:01:30
I would drop-back to 2e lore for that one - Undead created through Priestly magic* (and Baelnorn are consecrated by the Seldarine) use Positive energy to sustain them (like a mummy).
I know that was changed in 3e - Positive-energy undead became unwieldy mechanically. I believe this may be why the 'Undying' classification was created (they are NOT 'undead' in the normal sense). Baelnorn should have been Undying in the 3e ruleset (which they probably didn't do because they didn't want to buy another box of kleenex for the grognard/lore-junky crowd).
*Edit:
This just reminded me of a clarification I wanted to make in my last post in another thread : When I say 'priestly magic', I mean GOOD priestly magic. Evil Priests probably draw their power from the 'dark side' (Umbral, Maleficium, whatever), which is why they suck at Healing (in WoW, a Priest that choose the 'dark path' got almost no healing - it was VERY hard to find anyone with a high-level healer-priest).
Edit2:
We can use non-FR rules to back this hypothesis up some-what. In SJ (and I think maybe in PS and/or RL - not sure), a priest could cast up to 3rd level spells without contact with his god. The premise there is that low-level spells like that are actually channeled from within, drawing on the priests own store of Divine (Radiant) Energy. One of the best-kept secrets of 'The Gods' is that you really don't need them - the power lies inside all of us. Only when you get into the more powerful magics do you need 'divine help'. This is why a priest following the 'dark path' can still cast some healing magic. |
| Quale |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 15:54:14
Orcus is not undead, Tenebrous was a sort of shadow, but Tenebrous wasn't a god
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
They are the elven equivalent of a lich... but, at the same time, are also something more that is entirely, and specifically... elven.
ok, do they have negative energy sustaining them? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 15:05:16
Elves were always Fay - Tolkien anthropomorphicized them.
This is why I theorize D&D Elves are the result of FR Fey 'disconnecting' themselves from their original power-source (Earth-nodes), and fleeing to the Feywild after the Affair of the Black Diamond. The result was that all children born of the Fey (Le'Shay) after that were Eladrin.
Elven history is a bit complicated (made so much worse by the 4e lore). Strangely, the (Sylvan) Elves were also children of the Fey, but remained faithful to the Fey Pantheon (Yuir Totems). I theorized (some place) that 'El' means 'of the Fey' (as in 'offspring', but it could be applied to other things as well), and thought that 'adrin' meant 'faithful' (because they remained in Faerie after the sylvan Elves left). I now think I had that backwards - 'adrin' probably means something approximating "those that forge their own path" (not quite 'traitors' - that would be Dhaerow). 'Ves' (as in El'Ves) would mean something like 'True' (as in, "they remained true to their roots").
So Corellon and his followers left Titania's Court (for Tintageer) and became Adrin (or "El'Adrin", - 'Wayward children'). Those that remained in the Fey lands were El'Ves - 'Children who follow the True Path'. 'Ves' is like the Oriental Li, or Egyptian Maat - to be 'Ves' is to be 'Seelie'. They remained true to their Fey heritage, even after they were sent from Faerie by the Fey (Le'Shay), until the ElAdrin showed up on Toril and began enforcing their own religious doctrines on them.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
the 2nd ed Greyhawk MC has fey undead, you forget Banshees, Elven Liches, undead Eladrin from planescape bits.....
I just thought of Banshees myself, but you beat me to it.
Banshee = 'Bane-Shee', or literally, "evil Fairy"
Immortal Fay that are native to the Feywild would be Outsiders, but Prime Fey are mortal, and therefor susceptible to Undeath.
However, even gods apparently (Orcus, Velsharoon, Vecna, Mellifleur) can be Undead (which makes little sense). In the case of those last three there is some logic to it (they appear as they did before they ascended), but Orcus became Undead and is a Demon Lord (giving him Exarch/demi-power status).
Ergo, under certain rare circumstances, creatures who are not normally affected by certain templates (Undeath, Lycanthropy, etc), CAN be affected by them. I would assume some sort of Wild-magic surge is responsible (Chaos, Spellplague, Faersrezz, Psuedo-natural energies, whatever); many undead appear to have been created as some sort of 'magical backlash' from experimentation or spell-battle.
As for the corporeal Undead, that shouldn't really apply to creature-type; anything that had a physical body (that remains on the Prime Material after death) should be able to be raised by necromantic magic. Its the Incorporeal and/or intelligent Undead that require those 'special circumstances' to exist.
Interestingly, in the Book of Secrets (AEG press), there is a ritual wherein a being can sever its ties to its home plane (including the prime material). I suppose something like that may be responsible for some Outsider undead (indirectly, not as a direct result of said ritual). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 14:26:50
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
undead eladrin from Planescape?
Aren't baelnorns arcane constructs that resemble liches, or something like the deathless?
Baelnorn are "good elven undead" only with regard to the purpose of their creation.
As noted in Cormanthyr -- "Baelnorn, the willing undead elves, are the elven equivalent of liches, though they are hardly as disturbingly “wrong” as the corrupt undead and they do not project the fearsome aura of those wicked creatures."
...
They are the elven equivalent of a lich... but, at the same time, are also something more that is entirely, and specifically... elven. |
| Quale |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:20:59
undead eladrin from Planescape?
Aren't baelnorns arcane constructs that resemble liches, or something like the deathless? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 12:03:26
What I find interesting is that humans have an idealized paragon - the classic shiny knight or paladin - who can fall from divine grace and be cursed/corrupted into a death knight. Why don't elves - who also have idealized paragons - have "death archers" or "death bladesingers"? No dwarven "death ragers" or "death smiths", no gnomish "death tinkers", not even "death kender"? |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:57:25
the dead lands of Darksun are full of undead pixies...... |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:56:48
the 2nd ed Greyhawk MC has fey undead, you forget Banshees, Elven Liches, undead Eladrin from planescape bits..... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:15:47
Baelnorn are indeed undead -- they're elven liches.
I'd classify fae as a kind of outsider, myself. Subject to corruption or destruction, certainly, but not undeath. And again, for me fae are the nature spirit type of critters. Elves may be related, but to me they are not fae.
That's my opinion, obviously. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 10:34:04
I agree Quale, yet I don't. Fey as spirits between/beyond our mortal and immortal realms is very interesting, and I like it.
But it's based on mythology more than canon.
Of course D&D canon is also based on mythology - but not so much, it's evolved into a dissimilar mythos of it's own.
I thought baelnorns are undead, very much like liches. They're definitely not alive. D&D's has nice little classification templates - mortal/immortal/(modron/celestial/fiend/chaos)/power, prime/planar/native/outsider, living/dead/unliving/undead/dormant/eternal, animal/vegatable/mineral, etc. In D&D terms every creature either fits into a nice category or it can (somehow) be twisted, warped, crossbred, and mutated into one. Is "Fey" just another kind of creature, like Shade or Baatezu, which can be reshaped into something else? |
| Quale |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 10:08:24
It's true that some fey are pure spirit like the creatures of the outer planes and immortal. There are no undead versions of outsiders except the yugoloth ghost. But the fey world is between the mortal and immortal realms, like in mythology many types of undead fey exist, particularly closer to the Prime and in Shadowfel. Even dwarves were considered spirits of the dead, tought clueless primes often confuse the types of spirits. Also baelnorns are not really undead.
Nuckelavee was recently statted in Pathfinder, I guess the dullahan fits as well. The Dearg-due and leanan sidhe (has stats in FR monstrous compendium) are interesting to use as fey vampires. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 07:17:17
Undead avariels, hmmm. There's just something wondrously delightful about flying undead, the very idea makes me giddy. <teeheehee>
Or even daemonfey/fer'ri avariels, er perhaps celestifey/faesimar I suppose (which seem more iconic, besides D&D likes to contrive counterbalanced diametrics). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 05:32:50
I actually have the original Mystara Players Survival Kit, and I believe it does indeed pre-date GH. I'm not sure about the Avariels, though, but given their mention as a FR-originated race, I would imagine it was probably his creation. Of course, one could always ask him! |
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