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 Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? [Spoilers]
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2010 :  19:49:25  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except that there ARE no whorehouses in the book. No matter how many times you try to claim there are.
So it's NOT on topic.
BB
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7518 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2010 :  19:52:40  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Y'know, I think I've seen this before. McCoy was driven insane while he carried Spock's katra ...

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2010 :  20:26:48  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yeah, but at least he had a good excuse. I really don't see what the point is of even debateing what it's called. It was just a set piece in the story. and from the book i was reading, Amarune seemed to like working there. Courtesans usually did, or so I understand. Plenty of wealthy patrons paying good coin for some company for a few hours 9or a night), and half the time, they're not after what most people think- just some light conversation, or an arm ornament for a party or some-such. And they get free food and nice clothes out of the deal too. The best life many women could hope for in such pre-feminist conditions.... Ed is obviously well-versed in the condition of most women in earlier times.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2010 :  22:52:33  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen

The whore-houses were one thing that made the novel a 'Miss' for me.
Completely on topic.
I'm not debating the topicality of your opinion.

What I *am* saying is that the thread shouldn't have to turn into a series of essays about one minute issue, which would be better served to be discussed in its own thread.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker

93 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2010 :  23:13:46  Show Profile  Visit Acolyte Thirteen's Homepage Send Acolyte Thirteen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except that there *are* whorehouses, BlueB!!
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=41891&start=0

You'll want to scroll down to the part where Grubb mentions that Ed's original submissions were laden with brothels (which is synonomous with whore-house), so he invents the term 'festhall'.

Wouldn't want to spead false info, BlueB's!

You aren't going to tell me there were no *festhalls* in the bookn are you!?

quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

Except that there ARE no whorehouses in the book. No matter how many times you try to claim there are.
So it's NOT on topic.
BB

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3164 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  00:00:18  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen

Except that there *are* whorehouses, BlueB!!
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=41891&start=0

You'll want to scroll down to the part where Grubb mentions that Ed's original submissions were laden with brothels (which is synonomous with whore-house), so he invents the term 'festhall'.

Wouldn't want to spead false info, BlueB's!

You aren't going to tell me there were no *festhalls* in the bookn are you!?

quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

Except that there ARE no whorehouses in the book. No matter how many times you try to claim there are.
So it's NOT on topic.
BB



Okay, y'know what? It may be that I'm annoyed for beating my head against the 4E Fan-wall in the WotC boards, but I'm pretty sick and tired of opinionated, biased arguments on message boards right now.

So, why don't we just drop it since we know you don't like festhalls/brothels/whorehouses/whatever and it doesn't make a difference to the rest of us. Since your opinion's not going to change our opinion on the book--STOP ARGUING.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7518 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  00:22:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
dennis
quote:
Arik
<snipzilla> Each part (if taken alone or out of context) is a weak and incomplete story. There is an assumption that the reader/audience will follow through the full story by experiencing them all in sequence.
I've read quite a lot of duologies, trilogies, quartets, pentads (and so on).... that have somewhat stand-alone plots. It is fair to criticize the plot of one book in a series because while it relates to the others in the series, still it should tell something with coherence. The HL and TW trilogies are best examples. And outside FR, there are Feist's Demonwar, Riftwar, and Serpentwar Sagas, Martin's Chronicles of the Necromancer, Canavan's The Black Magician trilogy, and a whole lot more.
Yes, good point dennis, and your examples are also good (those that I've read, anyhow). It would've been better if I'd said it this way: "The story, as told within only a small part of a greater work, may seem incomplete or unsatisfying but cannot be properly evaluated nor condemned until it's completed."

Each book, and each chapter within each book, must contain some sense of closure and completeness. An example of "bad" story breaking (in my mind) is Kill Bill - playing it as two movies isn't objectionable, and some people feel that it was interwoven quite masterfully, but I personally feel the first part (considered alone) was rather fragmentary and sloppy, only after watching them both could the first part be seen in proper story context. Planned trilogies/quads/etc are more difficult to structure "properly", the first book of the set is often not as good as it would have been were it a stand-alone work successful enough to merit continuation. Authors like Ed have demonstrated their ability to consistently provide good storywork, so a single incomplete story (or any objectionable elements within it) is just not enough (yet) to diminish the entire composition.

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  00:28:36  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm inclined to agree with both Ashe and Erik.

...

Acolyte, I'm asking you now to halt you're attempts to further establish this somewhat bizarre agenda you have re: other scribes and their opinions on certain topics. Candlekeep is a free and open community where scribes can engage and discuss what they love about the world we all hold dearly in our hearts. But you're now pushing the limits of that spirit of debate.

I appreciate your passion for the concept of festhalls and the like in Ed's latest work of Realms fiction, and I know this is an important point you've some very strong opinions on. However, your near-constant badgering and blustering about this, has become almost intolerable, and it is now succeeding only in disrupting the further progress of this scroll.

So, please, either remove yourself from this discussion completely, for the sake of others, or move on from this point which I hope you feel you've definitely made.

Thank you.

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Edited by - The Sage on 07 Dec 2010 00:29:42
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  00:29:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Moving on, did anyone besides me get a little confused by El's actions at the end? He took over her body (Amarune) and now what? Is she still in there too, and if he wanted a "successor", why did he feel the need to do that? That is really my only gripe with the story. It just seemed a little hypocritical. Although I voted hit, I would have liked the denoument to be clearer.




I think it's the best solution left to him. He nor Storm couldn't cast powerful spells to turn himself into a lich, a vampire, or whatever form or undeath to continue existing, while the "possession" required but a little magic Storm could readily cast. Not to mention, it would make him a little less conspicuous to his enemies.

Every beginning has an end.
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker

93 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  00:43:11  Show Profile  Visit Acolyte Thirteen's Homepage Send Acolyte Thirteen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sage, you are incorrect in your assertion that I have engaged in any badgering or blustering behavior.

Please see my PM.

As I have properly corrected BlueBs innacurate statement, I have nothing further to say regarding EMD.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  01:00:16  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen

Sage, you are incorrect in your assertion that I have engaged in any badgering or blustering behavior.
No, I'm not. And I ask that you see my reply PM in accordance with that issue.

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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker

93 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  01:33:43  Show Profile  Visit Acolyte Thirteen's Homepage Send Acolyte Thirteen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We disagree.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen

Sage, you are incorrect in your assertion that I have engaged in any badgering or blustering behavior.
No, I'm not. And I ask that you see my reply PM in accordance with that issue.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7518 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  01:50:16  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
dennis
[Elminster] nor Storm couldn't cast powerful spells to turn himself into a lich, a vampire, or whatever form or undeath to continue existing, while the "possession" required but a little magic Storm could readily cast. Not to mention, it would make him a little less conspicuous to his enemies.
Okay, so now I've spoilered it all up, perhaps I'll forget this thread by the time the entire (first) trilogy is available for me to read.

But question:
El can't lich himself? Why not? He's eminently qualified. Is this some downside to being (ex-)Chosen? Don't answer if it's an explicit story component and some perfectly plausible story explanation is given.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  01:59:09  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

(This might not be as necessary as he seems to think--it might be symptomatic of his inability/unwillingness to let go and rest. Which is not to say that he's wrong in that.)



Agreed. Personally, I've no problem with it. (My problems lie elsewhere...) It's just an inevitable necessity, given his condition. Whether it's wrong or not depends entirely on how one would like to view it. Maybe it's wrong because it "rapes" Rune's mind and temporarily takes away her freedom. Or maybe it's right because 'tis done for "the greater good." Or somewhere in between.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  02:03:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

quote:
dennis
[Elminster] nor Storm couldn't cast powerful spells to turn himself into a lich, a vampire, or whatever form or undeath to continue existing, while the "possession" required but a little magic Storm could readily cast. Not to mention, it would make him a little less conspicuous to his enemies.
Okay, so now I've spoilered it all up, perhaps I'll forget this thread by the time the entire (first) trilogy is available for me to read.

But question:
El can't lich himself? Why not? He's eminently qualified. Is this some downside to being (ex-)Chosen? Don't answer if it's an explicit story component and some perfectly plausible story explanation is given.



Casting a very simple spell alone (except from those ready-to-use wands) makes him mad. How much more a series of complicated spells required for liching?!

Every beginning has an end.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7518 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  02:13:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh. Yes. An insane Chosen-powered lich (or half-lich?) with millennia of living experience wouldn't be a good thing to have wandering around at all.

[Edit]

I fervently hope that nobody figures out how to craft a Wand of Lichmaking. Bad idea.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Dec 2010 02:16:50
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  02:14:28  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen

We disagree.
Fair enough. I'm considering your additional points now.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  02:21:01  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Arik

quote:
dennis
[Elminster] nor Storm couldn't cast powerful spells to turn himself into a lich, a vampire, or whatever form or undeath to continue existing, while the "possession" required but a little magic Storm could readily cast. Not to mention, it would make him a little less conspicuous to his enemies.
Okay, so now I've spoilered it all up, perhaps I'll forget this thread by the time the entire (first) trilogy is available for me to read.

But question:
El can't lich himself? Why not? He's eminently qualified. Is this some downside to being (ex-)Chosen? Don't answer if it's an explicit story component and some perfectly plausible story explanation is given.



Casting a very simple spell alone (except from those ready-to-use wands) makes him mad. How much more a series of complicated spells required for liching?!

Indeed. Though, it's important to note that just as there are different kinds of liches [Larloch and Druth Daern are examples] there are different kinds of lichnee processes. But there are many other practical and personal reasons stopping mages from turning themselves into animated corpses.

I'd actually pose this question to Ed. I'm very curious to hear what his response would be.

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Edited by - The Sage on 07 Dec 2010 02:22:53
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  02:29:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I am, Sage.


Real OT:

Sage, I sent you a PM. But I'm not so sure if it was successfully sent because I don't see it in my outbox.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 07 Dec 2010 02:31:13
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  02:49:44  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

As I am, Sage.


Real OT:

Sage, I sent you a PM. But I'm not so sure if it was successfully sent because I don't see it in my outbox.

Aye. It came through clearly enough. Hopefully you've received my response by now.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  02:58:21  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye. I've done as you suggested. I'm hoping for a positive reply from the other party.

Back to OP...

I wonder, given El's condition, and say he considers lichdom, is there a certain kind of lichnee process that might be available to or feasible for him?

Every beginning has an end.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7518 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  03:06:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose somebody could always drop a lump of heavy magic on him.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  03:27:39  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And risk Karsus's wrath? Hmmm...

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  03:32:07  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

Aye. I've done as you suggested. I'm hoping for a positive reply from the other party.

Back to OP...

I wonder, given El's condition, and say he considers lichdom, is there a certain kind of lichnee process that might be available to or feasible for him?

There's always the Arklem Greeth option. As noted in 3e's Lords of Darkness, evidence suggests that devils can pass along the secrets of lichdom as part of their diabolical pact/contracting crafting process.



I'm jesting, of course. I doubt Elminster would consider such an option.

Velsharoon's path to lichdom is a curious possibility -- at least according to Powers and Pantheons.

His transformation into a lich most likely occurred just before his ascension, and immediately after he completed the ritual laid down by Talos. P&P again makes this clear as it stated that the ritual first granted Velsharoon the secrets of lichdom and then allowed his ascension into godhood via the sponsorship of Talos.

Of course, it is interesting to speculate also. If the transformation was a necessary part of the ritual laid down by the Lord of Storms, then why did Talos deem that lichdom was to be a component of the ritual? Without direct lore on the subject, we can also assume that Velsharoon's transformation was something he undertook on his own long before completing the Talos ritual. If the lichdom aspect of the ritual was actually a necessary stage in the ascension, did that influence what position Velsharoon would occupy in the pantheon, or was it, like P&P said, a decision by Ao to create a balance against Kelemvor?

...

Which raises the question. If Elminster were to follow Velsharoon's example, would he necessarily become a deity of good-aligned liches?

...

Seriously, though, given that the usual lichnee process, most fully described in REF5 Lords of Darkness, involves things like the blood of an infant, I doubt any notion Elminster has for becoming a lich, would be all that tempting.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2010 :  03:41:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Seriously, though, given that the usual lichnee process, most fully described in REF5 Lords of Darkness, involves things like the blood of an infant, I doubt any notion Elminster has for becoming a lich, would be all that tempting.



Then he'd better choose any those unusual processes.

I'm not really that comfortable seeing my favorite heroes become liches. Favorite villains, yes. But the "grayness" of El's personality hardly makes him a true hero, nor an agent of what is right and good---which is understandable because as THO said, Ed likes his characters to be in shades of gray.

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