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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 04:26:51
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| Hasn't ed said that Lichdom and silver fire doesn't mix very well, somewhere is 2005? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 04:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Which brings up another possibility- a shade! Not necessarily evil, as I understand it, and it could indeed be a viable option for El.
Bravo Alystra! For someone who likes the Shades, I can't believe I failed to raise that option earlier.
You're welcome, dennis! Actually, it was your quote of THO's statement of Ed's preferences for characters in "shades of gray" that made me think of it. The shade part just stuck in my mind for some reason. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 05:51:22
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Actually, thinking on this further [and after digesting a rather unhealthy lunch], I'm remembering back to something Ed said several years ago about Larloch possibly creating his own unique and "better" lichdom spells and processes.
I'm wondering, now, whether this isn't also something that Elminster could try -- only the process might involve transforming the former Sage of Shadowdale into something akin to a human-baelnorn.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 07:34:49
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Human-baelnorn (a unique form of undead creature called a "baelminster"?) isn't as unreasonable as it might seem.
El is probably the most "elfish" pure human in the Realms; he was one of only a handful of non-elves who participated in the telempathy-like mental communion of elves while raising a mythal (and perhaps more than one mythal), he's lived so many centuries that an "elven" outlook on life is probably natural to him, even moreso since he's spent a lot of that time being rather intimate with elves, some sources claim El is even capable of elven High Magic, and he might enjoy all sorts of special insights given by Mystra to her favourite Chosen. He's probably interacted many times (at least indirectly) with such fine fellows as Larloch and the various actual baelnorns of the land, and he essentially has all the magical lore and resources of Faerûn at his disposal (after installing so many allies into local kingdoms); he is certainly a celebrity at Candlekeep, it's a wonder that there isn't a constant paparazzi of bumbling scribes and apprentices tailing him at all times. Even if El (and Storm) alone weren't sufficiently powerful or knowledgeable about how to become baelnorn, there's plenty of elves who would willingly share their secrets and provide full assistance in the process. Assuming El's little bit of insanity isn't a problem. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Dec 2010 07:40:03 |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 07:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, thinking on this further [and after digesting a rather unhealthy lunch], I'm remembering back to something Ed said several years ago about Larloch possibly creating his own unique and "better" lichdom spells and processes.
I'm wondering, now, whether this isn't also something that Elminster could try -- only the process might involve transforming the former Sage of Shadowdale into something akin to a human-baelnorn.
An archlich perhaps? Although, Baelminster does sound good |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 08:35:33
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Alternately, he could become one of those sentient elven forehead gem things, a telminskiira.
And now I'm wondering if Larloch's better "archlich" phylactery isn't sentient ... hell, maybe it's even Chosen. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Hasn't ed said that Lichdom and silver fire doesn't mix very well, somewhere is 2005?
Yeah in the Short Story "Tears so White"...Larloch want to feel the silver fire but cannot fearing it will unravel him. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Dec 2010 13:29:27 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Which brings up another possibility- a shade! Not necessarily evil, as I understand it, and it could indeed be a viable option for El.
Bravo Alystra! For someone who likes the Shades, I can't believe I failed to raise that option earlier.
You're welcome, dennis! Actually, it was your quote of THO's statement of Ed's preferences for characters in "shades of gray" that made me think of it. The shade part just stuck in my mind for some reason.
It could work, but after a decade or so of Drow....then another decade of Shades.....El isnt the type to be last in a trend
Hopefully he wont get stuck dancing in a pocket forest dimension! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 14:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Hopefully he wont get stuck dancing in a pocket forest dimension!
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 00:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Hopefully he wont get stuck dancing in a pocket forest dimension!
Right, hopefully. He once got stuck in Hell. There's no saying he won't be stuck in any other dimension, pocket or huge. He might not be so lucky the next time, specially if Alassra is completely occupied (and unreachable) somewhere else. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 01:25:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Hopefully he wont get stuck dancing in a pocket forest dimension!
Right, hopefully. He once got stuck in Hell. There's no saying he won't be stuck in any other dimension, pocket or huge. He might not be so lucky the next time, specially if Alassra is completely occupied (and unreachable) somewhere else.
'Twas a reference to Catti-brie's fate after The Ghost King. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 01:32:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Hopefully he wont get stuck dancing in a pocket forest dimension!
Right, hopefully. He once got stuck in Hell. There's no saying he won't be stuck in any other dimension, pocket or huge. He might not be so lucky the next time, specially if Alassra is completely occupied (and unreachable) somewhere else.
'Twas a reference to Catti-brie's fate after The Ghost King.
Aye, twas my best shot as an homage to the worst fate I've ever read in a realms novelfor good characters.(cattie brie and regis) |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 06:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Hasn't ed said that Lichdom and silver fire doesn't mix very well, somewhere is 2005?
Yeah in the Short Story "Tears so White"...Larloch want to feel the silver fire but cannot fearing it will unravel him.
He said it today, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 06:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Hasn't ed said that Lichdom and silver fire doesn't mix very well, somewhere is 2005?
Yeah in the Short Story "Tears so White"...Larloch want to feel the silver fire but cannot fearing it will unravel him.
He said it today, too.
And for ease of reference:-
quote:
The Lady Herald in Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010) - Page 95
And hello again, everyone.
Sage, Ed dropped me a quick e-mail in response to your lichdom queries, and here it is:
Hoo boy. Thick NDAs looming all around on this one, but I can go far enough to say: Elminster is well aware of (and possesses the notes, spells, and necessary "ingredients"/apparatus for) many methods of attaining lichnee status, that he's acquired and studied over the years. Thus far he has actively dabbled in none of them, and that's due in part to the silver fire and active Weave flows and use not mixing well with lichdom. Which is where I'd best stop spilling beans for now . . .
So saith Ed. Who has obviously worked all of this out and communicated it with designers working at TSR (and possibly, later, at WotC), but just as obviously isn't free to share much more.
Yet.
Heh-heh.
love,
THO
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2010 : 13:31:30
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There was an article about El and the Spellplague at the WotC site two years ago, I liked it, they quickly deleted it and FRCG had a different story.
Expect something ''cool'' happening, transformation into a drow-dragon-wizshade-lich-exarch. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2010 : 20:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Which brings up another possibility- a shade! Not necessarily evil, as I understand it, and it could indeed be a viable option for El.
Bravo Alystra! For someone who likes the Shades, I can't believe I failed to raise that option earlier.
You're welcome, dennis! Actually, it was your quote of THO's statement of Ed's preferences for characters in "shades of gray" that made me think of it. The shade part just stuck in my mind for some reason.
I just realized that there's very little possibility - or none at all - that El would transform himself to a shade. His tie to Mystra is hardly severed. If he were to become a shade, he'd have to completely break his connection with Mystra (who is the Weave but not the Shadow Weave), and probably forge a pact with Shar.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 14:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Which brings up another possibility- a shade! Not necessarily evil, as I understand it, and it could indeed be a viable option for El.
Bravo Alystra! For someone who likes the Shades, I can't believe I failed to raise that option earlier.
You're welcome, dennis! Actually, it was your quote of THO's statement of Ed's preferences for characters in "shades of gray" that made me think of it. The shade part just stuck in my mind for some reason.
I just realized that there's very little possibility - or none at all - that El would transform himself to a shade. His tie to Mystra is hardly severed. If he were to become a shade, he'd have to completely break his connection with Mystra (who is the Weave but not the Shadow Weave), and probably forge a pact with Shar.
Unless Mystra 4.0 then uses shady El to take care of Shar and "fix" the whole Weave/Shadowweave and control all magical hybridization of the two. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 22:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Good Points:
You've heard my verdict loud and clear. What's yours?
I failed to vote as the only applicable option for me would be: "I don't know, I don't know..." - meaning I do not know what to think.
Before I proceed, let me say that I agree with many points that Acolyte Thirteen made. Anyhow, my thoughts on the subject are as presented below.
Likes:
- introduction of new characters (everything has its expiration date and it is both, good and refreshing to see new faces)
- conflict and comparison between old and new (i.e. legacy that previous generations left in Cormyr and comparison to new-found situation in realm)
- the fact that this is only the first book in series (this being an introduction novel means it is here to set the stage for the other novels and it allows for certain things to appear "out of place" and not having everything wide-clear)
Dislikes:
- return of Manshy who became some type of a "joker" (liked "old" Manshy much, much more... - this new one is for "to believe or not believe" column in local newspapers, his Sanity being questionable makes complete impression even worse)
- Elmy, who regardless of his age and lack of "magic powers" at one moment manages to catch a flying blade (!?!), and for the rest of the novel complains how he is not what he used to be (?!?) - would be nice if Ed would make his mind on that issue and stick with it)
- Certain plot decisions just do not sit well with me [i.e. "have no fear, for return is near" seem to be motto regarding FR of late; everything and everybody (and his/her grandma) is returning to face of Faerun - more precisely, and regarding this novel - Manshy, Alusair, Vangey, Mirt... - makes me wonder who's the next in this shady context]
Also, adding to this last one, I wonder if I might be missing something. Otherwise, what the heck is history between Elmy and WoW? Why the WoW brotherhood does not work along with Elmy and help him restore his powers so he can in return help them? I feel that current situation between them is just dropped there and not well developed. My hope is that future novels will clear that up.
In conclusion, it was an interesting read. I am looking forward to next installment that should, plot-wise, make more sense and provide additional questions and answers.
Tren |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 02:34:17
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Spectral Wizard, watchghost, spectral harper, intelligent magic item, talking shoe,
he most likely has notes and formula to be mostly anything. (Most likely I'd think
he would be a feminine underclothing of some type, can u imagine having your
bra start talking to you?) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 03:25:17
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From what I understand, Cloneshoon's sanity has ALWAYS been questionable. Why else would he go to so much trouble to eradicate ONE person- even if El IS Mystra's favored Chosen, AND has a personal history of rivalry/enmity with the Roach? All that to wipe out one guy just so he can continue his plans for- um, what was it again? Oh, right- world domination. Nope, no mental instability there!
I agree to a point about El's complaining. But truthfully, he was complaining more about his inability to use magic, and to keep running on all cylinders as he did when young- not necessarily his lack of motor skills. Even an older person can still pull off a feat of reflexes on occasion- just not ALL THE TIME. That was what I go from that.
Alusair's return was anything but complete. Obviously she has been hanging around the castle in her current form for some time, and considering the fact that it is a hundred years after the Spellplague, I don't see it as a return- more like she never really left to begin with. Mirt's return was interesting. I've not seen him in some time, and had wondered where he got off to. Now we all know, and I found it highly amusing! I did not SEE Vangy at all in the book, though there were plenty of mentions of him, mostly by El wishing he was still leading the War Wizards.
Loved Amarune, she is feisty and intelligent. My one real beef was El's early insistence on her cooperation in becoming his successor, then he turned around and did a 180 by basically taking possession of her by force. Did not like that. His ethics seem to have become slightly questionable over the years. Pragmatism is all well and good, but has its limits, as Janeway of Voyager could likely tell him. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 04:25:41
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Well, to be fair to old Shoony ... it's well known that he was in the habit of "updating" the experience/memory of his clones before charging off on suicide-rampage missions, and it's a fair bet that he knows he's fought to the death (and lost) against Elminster many times. He's known to hold obsessive grudges for much longer than is mentally healthy, and no doubt he's reasoned that El is somehow the direct cause of his own worldly woes. What better time to attack than when he knows El is vulnerable? Especially considering that El has an annoying tendency to be invincible if you give him enough time to recover ... Manshoon must be relentless and press the attack while his nemesis is reeling, before he loses his advantage. Besides, he's kinda batty himself, you don't require deep psychological analysis to justify more than that.
I've not yet read this book, but it seems to me that El's alignment tendencies may have always been a little gray; people just expect him to be shiny good so they automatically perceive El's actions in the best possible light. Having something you've loved all your life turn into poison is enough to make anybody's moral compass skew off course, and earning a few Dark Side points or lashing out some ethical collateral damage is a natural way for "powerless" people to respond - especially if these actions appear to be justified by leading to the "greater good" of returning what was lost.
The way I see it, El has always been a utilitarian - the end justifies the means - he's just always had a wider array of options which could be used to cut away problems with surgical precision. Now he doesn't, all he's got are some clumsy tools that have to occasionally batter through his allies before striking against problems. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Dec 2010 04:35:50 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 06:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower
Dislikes:
- return of Manshy who became some type of a "joker" (liked "old" Manshy much, much more... - this new one is for "to believe or not believe" column in local newspapers, his Sanity being questionable makes complete impression even worse)
All archvillains are insane - to a certain degree. But most of them hide it in their well-built facades: their brilliance and composed manner. Having a babbling nincompoop among them provides variety. That's the Roach for you. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 14:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower
Dislikes:
- return of Manshy who became some type of a "joker" (liked "old" Manshy much, much more... - this new one is for "to believe or not believe" column in local newspapers, his Sanity being questionable makes complete impression even worse)
All archvillains are insane - to a certain degree. But most of them hide it in their well-built facades: their brilliance and composed manner. Having a babbling nincompoop among them provides variety. That's the Roach for you.
To be honest, it is perhaps me wanting Manshy (as arch-bad-bottom) who is not insane but rather devoted to be selfish and uncaring in achieving his goals. Cruel, yes - mad, no. Obviously Ed has different vision, which I respect, but do not like as much.
To add, I do not know what to think abut Mystra's possible return. As FR fan-boy, I loved goddess of magic and was outraged by having her "killed". Same goes for Mask, Helm, Azuth... - perhaps my biggest grip vs direction that has been chosen for FR is this god-killing spree.
Consequently, one side of me is happy about possibility to have Mystra re-established. The other side is confused and does not like this fashion of being eliminated and then resurrected.
It really happens way too often and, in my personal opinion, it has devastating effects on everything that happened prior to the "point of return".
Now, if somebody is "gone", it does not have anymore that weight of "finality". You know what I mean. Will some character be banished or die? Who cares - for it can always be resurrected one way or another... It is devaluation of previous work and it robs novels from being interesting read - in my, not so humble, opinion.
So, for my personal sake (yes, I can be very selfish), I can only hope that my favourite fantasy setting will start being more believable and less childish.
"Now we kill 'em, now we rise 'em. Wow, that was fun. Let's do it again!" 
Tren
P.S.
Please note that above provided lines are not intended to provoke scribes at our favourite keep! Far from that. I just like to speak my mind when somebody provides opportunity, thus, above noted letter-rows are just a personal opinion of FR lover. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 22:11:13
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| I don't have much demur to Mystra's return. Ever since her 'demise,' I suspected she would return. I find it hard to believe that FR will be lacking a god of magic for so long. Besides, without a guardian, the Weave would become an easy target of Shar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 22:32:52
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| Elminster would make a fair god of magic. I mean, he's already used to playing that role anyhow. Then again, I would think nobody with any sense would want to occupy an office with such a high turnover rate. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 22:45:44
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Indeed, nobody.
El is one of my favorite characters. Hence I want to see him often in the novels. If he were to become a god, his 'screen time' will be extremely decreased. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 23:05:31
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True enough, though many Mystras have enjoyed center stage in Realms fiction past. I have tired a little of El as a predictably permanent fixture, it's hard to not accuse him of walking the Dark Side Mary-Sue path ... having him become, uh, impotent in his old age, subject to the greater forces around him, making mistakes, and even making some "questionable" decisions based on selfish human psychology is refreshing to see. It adds some "real" complexity to his character; time to man up a little and stop dancing around with elves in the woods.
I would oppose El's ascendancy simply because there's plenty of "patriarchal" sky gods already. Mystra seems more akin to an earth goddess, sister of Chauntea, sustaining life-magic and the Weave. El's wizened grandfather character just isn't a great fit; might as well just promote Azuth instead (and maybe give him some of the Talos blasting portfolio to give him some oomphf).
Having said that ... El would make an interesting choice for ascension through stealing Gond's power/portfolio, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 00:00:05
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| Years ago I thought mere mortals ascending to godhood was "cool." But I realized I'd rather read about wrangling mortals than bickering gods Not only did demystification destroy it for me, I found the mortal's ways much more sensible. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 00:30:24
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Jaded with apotheosis, eh?
Well, what else can be done with Elminster? He's practically unto the gods already, certainly not any normal mortal, and (I feel) he already requires a lot of "special" treatment to make him vital in the setting. We don't need another überpotent semidivine wizard recluse, Larloch fills that role much better (and at least explains his immortality through Lichdom). Elminster is, forgive me for saying this, just an ossified remnant of the old world, he's become troublesome baggage, diminishing in influence and (perhaps) no longer worth the trouble to keep around "as is". Godhood is an obvious method for installing El into a place of eternal prominence without having to constantly devise mechanical excuses; it also allows him to continue "fathering" the Realms without micromanaging, since the gods have very definite limits on their permitted actions.
I'm curious dennis - how do you feel about the way El is portrayed in the Avatar trilogy? Or the way he is portrayed (being utterly impossible to scry, even by the Tanthuls) in the Twilight War trilogy? Would you feel this sort of treatment is unfair if applied to Roachshoon? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Dec 2010 00:33:08 |
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Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? [Spoilers]
