| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 03:37:50
I was just wondering if there was any product that might have pinned down at what point Iyraclea became the "Queen" of the Great Glacier. Thus far I've not found the mid way point between the information in FR14 Great Glacier and the FRCS.
Thanks all. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quale |
Posted - 03 Jun 2010 : 17:33:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to say, I envy Eberron's ability to be free of such stereo-types and tropes.
Yea, not only the religions but the races, monsters etc. everything generic had to be included without any significant twists. In some cases I think it worked out for the better (e.g. look at Eberron halflings or kender), and sometimes it was limiting for the designers.
I think it's possible to make a simple pantheon and that it appears realistic. For example in my Realms the archetypal mother-goddess has these portfolios:
Agriculture, growth, fertility, abundance, fruitfulness, ancestry, home, family, marriage, parenthood, courtship, bees, harmony, cooperation, cooking, weaving, pottery, old age, earth, survival, necessity, needs, hunger, food, warmth, caves, ritual, sacrifice, oaths, sisterhood, birth, blood
and then you pick a few portfolios for a particular temple/''heresy''/culture/land and make e.g. Chondathan Chauntea which is the most spread out and accepted version or you can have a darker, paleolithic version where even a blood sacrifice might be necessary for survival, or any other combination.
This is from an interview with Ed
quote:
Hi! I designed Hoar as a Realms original, but all of my gods are "echoes" of some real-world deities. I put some actual real-world deities (Tyche, for instance) - - or rather their DEITIES & DEMIGODS versions - - into the original Realms pantheon, but the pantheons of Unther and Mulhorand were added to the Realms by other designers.
My original Unther and Mulhorand "echoed" the real-world Asian ancient realms east of the Mediterranean, but in the published Realms, they were detailed by other designers as very close models of real-world historical places (or their Hollywood equivalents).
Here's the real secret: if you read my Realms novels, you'll occasionally "hear" characters swearing by "all the Watching Gods."
Well, unbeknownst to all but a few sages and ancient elves, that phrase, "the Watching Gods," refers to an old, old belief among intelligent races that there are far fewer actual gods than most mortals believe, and that these fewer "Watching Gods" are unwittingly worshipped under several names by clergies and devout lay followers who see them as a variety of different beings. Some sages believe the gods themselves are partially or wholly unaware that they are "split personalities" or "aspects" of the same mighty being, while others cling to the view that this is a deliberate deception (insurance, if you will, on the part of a divine being that they will always be venerated regardless of whether this or that named god falls out of favour). A few sages believe Ao and the goddess of magic best known as Mystra are the only "uber-gods" mortals have glimpsed, and that the others are hidden behind their arrays of names (for example, just one being is behind Silvanus, Eldath, Mielikki, and most of the other nature deities).
No mortal knows the truth behind all of this, mind you, so a DM can decide whatever he or she wishes - - or choose to NOT decide, being as they can arrange matters so that mortals (including PCs) never know.
(Here, I believe, is where I'm supposed to make "Bwoohahahaha" noises.)
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 05:27:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem comes in when you have to write concrete rules around such beings, or at least their religions.
For instance, two priests of two different storm Gods decide to control the wheather. One wants to send a hurricane at the country of the other priest, but the other priest instead prays for beautiful, sunny wheather. Who wins?
With only one set of gods (with different aliases),it becomes somewhat simpler for a game, even it isn't as 'realistic'. Believe me, when I ran my games I felt the more the merrier - I allowed any god the players wanted to worship, but now that I'm designing my own homebrew world I want to limit the 'powers that be'. I still want many gods, but I don't want gods with duplicate portfolios.
I think, though, that you can avoid that, for the most part. Some concepts are simply bigger than one race -- like oceans or weather. And/or, each race will have different outlooks on the same concept -- like how one culture may accept death as a natural part of life, where another culture fears it. And of course, other deities are only going to care about their chosen race, and not worry about that same thing in another race.
I'm not really arguing that more or less gods are necessary. I get your point, and if I was world-building, I think I'd go for the simpler approach, myself. I'm just saying that I think both concepts -- one pantheon or many -- have a lot of pros and cons, and I don't see that either is necessarily better than the other. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 04:34:06
The problem comes in when you have to write concrete rules around such beings, or at least their religions.
For instance, two priests of two different storm Gods decide to control the wheather. One wants to send a hurricane at the country of the other priest, but the other priest instead prays for beautiful, sunny wheather. Who wins?
With only one set of gods (with different aliases),it becomes somewhat simpler for a game, even it isn't as 'realistic'. Believe me, when I ran my games I felt the more the merrier - I allowed any god the players wanted to worship, but now that I'm designing my own homebrew world I want to limit the 'powers that be'. I still want many gods, but I don't want gods with duplicate portfolios. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 02:04:09
I can see arguments either way. Having one single pantheon does remove a lot of potential headaches...
But that said, it's also quite logical that people of different genetic and cultural backgrounds will worship their own deities. Many Earth cultures had different pantheons, so it makes sense to have multiple pantheons in a fantasy world, where the differences between races are more than just shading. Elves and dwarves and goblins and humies are different enough that it makes sense for there to be race-specific deities. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 18:43:05
I have always felt that should have been the way to go, from the very beginning, but I suppose Ed had to work within the framework of the D&D game, and a lot of his own cosmology was altered to suit the published realms.
In other words, it was firmly established that the Elves, Dwarves, etc, all had their own, seperate, gods, and it would have been too controversial to NOT have them all in FR. They somehow managed to get away with that on other worlds, but FR has been the flagship setting twice, and needed to fit the status-quo.
I have to say, I envy Eberron's ability to be free of such stereo-types and tropes. |
| Quale |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 09:20:45
One of the few ideas I like from 4e is that some of the racial gods are aliases, imagine if every race or culture on every planet has a pantheon, if there are millions of gods out there being a god doesn't feel special or unique. It works in agnostic Eberron but in the Realms where gods interfere all the time, it's hard to believe. That's why I houseruled only three types of pantheons. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 00:47:52
Well said... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 00:38:05
In the new Homebrew world I've been working on the past year, I establish right from the beginning that 'the gods' do not truly have a race (although they may be an ascended mortal from one... in fact.. they all are... but thats another twist...). The piece I've been writing for the mythos explains that some gods have many names and are worshipped by different groups, and that these groups don't always see the deity the same way. In fact, two groups could go to war over the differences, thinking each represents a completely different god, when in fact it is the same god with an alias and a different portfolio.
The heretical idea of mine is that gods (deities, actually - in my world there is a difference) don't really care what their worshipers think for the most part, as long as they continue to send Elan (a term I stole from the Stormbringer rules) to them. Worship = Elan = more power for the deity. Some few gods get involved with their mortal worshipers, but usually those are only the ones that are newly-come to godhood. For the most part, the deities are indifferent to the world, except when it concerns things that could tip the status quo (and reduce their power-base).
That being the case, and divine beings being what they are, they can take on any outward appearance, and could easily be reveared by different groups and races who have no clue that these 'gods' of theirs are all the same group.
And just because we have certain things 'established' with FR lore, doesn't mean it's correct. Its very easy to just say "The scholars got it WRONG". Remember, FR is one of the few settings (perhaps the only one) that is 'told' in the third person - everything we know about the Realms is told to Ed Greenwood by Elminster (although over the years this list has grown on both sides), and the folks on the Faerūnian side may have either been mistaken, or simply lied.
So the Realms, AS PRESENTED, is just Elminster's 'best guess', and not only are changes inevitable; they should be expected. Even 'The Gods' do not have all the answers - if they did, the Spellplague certainly could not have happened.
So don't be afraid to make changes to canon in your own FR - its built to do just that.  |
| Jakk |
Posted - 25 May 2010 : 04:02:50
I've been a bit distracted by "Project Isle" recently... 
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why couldn't elves worship Eldath?
In answer to your question, MrHedgehog, I see no good reason, apart from the fact that elves tend to be a bit xenophobic when it comes to religion. I'm speaking in pre-4E-divine-retcons terms here, and assuming that we're embracing the idea of racial pantheons. Eldath is similar enough in general goals, portfolio, etc. to the Seldarine that I could easily see these deities allying in order for like-minded groups of their followers to establish a city like Myth Ondath. After all, Myth Drannor was famous for being open to all races, at least until the hubris and xenophobia of the elves got the better of their ideals. 
Apart from that idea, I'm still patiently waiting for more of GK's heresies... and quite interested in where they might lead us... 
Edit: Included quote of last post before page break. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 10:16:12
Why couldn't elves worship Eldath? |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 08:33:29
I like Heresy. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 07:25:14
 You're right, George; that is heretical. That whole notion of racial deities not being specific to their races is something that I find deeply, violently disturbing... and it's the single biggest reason I haven't warmed up to 4E as a whole. I've happily adopted some of the rules tweaks (attack/defense opposed rolls) and even some of the story elements, at least in concept... including... the Spellplague! However, the whole idea that Talos was actually Gruumsh (etc., etc., not to mention the Tyr-Helm-Tymora fiasco) just makes me go  
So... all that being said, I'm quite looking forward to your other heresies...  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 06:54:40
Well my first heretical thought has a single unifying theme. Simply, all of the "minor" demi-human deities for all of the demi-human pantheons in the Realms are aspects of human deities adopted by those demi-humans on arival. In other words, Ao was prepared to let in the deific essence of the leader of the pantheon (Corellon, Moradin etc.) to shepherd the religious requirements of that interloper race, but in return demanded that those self-same elves/dwarves etc. worship the existing deities (I won't label them all as "human" although most were) by another name so as to preserve a sort of deific status quo. So simply put, where the dwarves thought that they were worshipping Clangeddin, they were actually worshipping Tempus or Garagos or other (likely lost to sagely reckoning) god of war that had existed in Toril from the time the gods first manifested there.
I'll distill some of my other heretical thoughts further before posting them.
-- George Krashos
|
| Jakk |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 03:19:41
Still waiting for those heretical answers, GK... and I have a bit of information from the GHotR that (a) you're probably already aware of and (b) might make things more interesting.
quote:
8130 DR
Yrlaancel, the City of Peace, is built within Rystall Wood.
With that founding date, it's definitely an elven city.
I'm actually bumping this scroll because I'm wondering if any scribes have a more precise location for Yrlaancel / Ondathel / Myth Ondath for the improvement of our friend HandsomeRob's already awesome map of Toril. I know it's in Rystall Wood (see quote above), a significant amount of which was swallowed by Anauroch, but I thought I remembered reading something about it being near one end (likely the east end) of the Ice Mountains, but I can't find that source now.
Edit: I was just looking at the map again, and I think the mountains I'm thinking of are the unnamed range north of Whitehorn... and I think that they have a name somewhere in established Realmslore. I believe that Yrlaancel/Myth Ondath is/was at one or the other end of that range. Again, sources elude me.
|
| Jakk |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 08:44:27
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
<snip>GK: Can you elaborate on those "inconsistencies" at this point?
Well, the inconsistencies stem simply from how an ancient city of the elves (Yrlaancel, the City of Peace founded in -8130 DR) can in 351 DR become Ondathel, "Eldath's" City of Peace. How does an elven city turn to the worship of a human god? How does an ancient elven city welcome Netherese refugees with open arms (VGtATM, pgs.106-107)? Was Yrlaancel in fact an elven city? If it was an ancient Netherese city, then it lasted a heck of a long time after the fall of Netheril. And how did the elven realm of Rystall Wood suffer it to exist within its borders?
I have some thoughts on the above, but they border on the heretical.
-- George Krashos
Now that you've posed the questions (some of which I remember asking myself when I read the lore many moons ago), I suspect that any answers that explain those points would have to be somewhat heretical... let's hear them!
Mind you, Eldath isn't exactly an enemy of the Seldarine, so it's not that big a stretch... at least imho... but I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter, particularly if they're heretical. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 07:19:48
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Figures... the one tome I haven't read... 
I just got it from Noble Knight Games. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 04:10:27
Figures... the one tome I haven't read... |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 03:27:40
Volo's Guide to all Things Magical...
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 00:45:14
If RAS can have a subterranean city buried for centuries (that no-one has any record of) suddenly show-up in the north, that shows how the Orcs and Dwarves lived in peace at one time (also something no-one has any record of), how can anything you come up with be anywhere near as... far-fetched?
And at the risk of sounding stupid, which source is VGtATM?
I'm a wee bit rusty on my sourcebook abbr.'s
The easiest way to go would to say the city was slowly abandoned by Elves and re-settled by humans - its happened several times before (Waterdeep included). The heretical way to go would be to say that the Elves either 'became' human (somehow; divine intervention?), or bread with the influx of humans until there was very little Elven blood left. Either way, I would like to read more about that city (or cities).
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
So...that would make her Captain America?
No, she would have been Captain Narfelia in that case
With her halfling sidekick, Bucky |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 13:49:16
I don't mind a little 'Heresy'... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 13:24:50
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
This is why we've missed you around here, MT... your lorecrafting is brilliant! I'll definitely be using this.
Edit: GK: Can you elaborate on those "inconsistencies" at this point?
Well, the inconsistencies stem simply from how an ancient city of the elves (Yrlaancel, the City of Peace founded in -8130 DR) can in 351 DR become Ondathel, "Eldath's" City of Peace. How does an elven city turn to the worship of a human god? How does an ancient elven city welcome Netherese refugees with open arms (VGtATM, pgs.106-107)? Was Yrlaancel in fact an elven city? If it was an ancient Netherese city, then it lasted a heck of a long time after the fall of Netheril. And how did the elven realm of Rystall Wood suffer it to exist within its borders?
I have some thoughts on the above, but they border on the heretical.
-- George Krashos
|
| Brimstone |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 07:49:00
So...that would make her Captain America? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 06:37:55
This is why we've missed you around here, MT... your lorecrafting is brilliant! I'll definitely be using this.
Edit: GK: Can you elaborate on those "inconsistencies" at this point? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 06:27:13
I theorized a long time ago (on the WotC boards, I believe), that Iryaclea was something else entirely - a unique being know as an 'Ice Lich', because of certain powers/defenses that Auril had bestowed upon her.
Basically, she is ice-cold, so many believe her to be undead, like a normal lich, but actually she is something in-between - a half-dead. She has many of the benefits that undead have, without the usual penalties (although perhaps a priest of Kossuth could turn her).
In my game, her metabolic functions have been slowed down so greatly that her heart only beats several times a day (this slow-down effects degenerative processes, but not her motor functions or cognitive abilites).
Anyhow, thats how I marry the various lore about her together - none of it is entirely accurate, but none of it is entirely wrong either.
Oh, and Krash... couldn't she have been Narfellian and fled the great Conflageration south - following in the footsteps of the Netherease? Or maybe she was from Narfell and was captured by Netherease for study, and when they fled from the fall of Netheril they put her in suspended animation and took her along - on ice, if you will...
And with the founding of Halruaa she was locked away in some forgotten storage area, only to be released centuries later by adventurers who disturbed her resting place.
Now you have her connection to the Demon-lands, and can still have her from Halruaa, and you get the added bonus of establishing why she attracted Auril's notice - she was frozen for centuries. |
| coach |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 18:36:18
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm... off-topic here, perhaps, but does anyone remember Ed referring to ruined cities buried under the Great Glacier? Or was is the High Ice? I wonder if these were giant cities, or remnants of another culture?
the ancient giant Kingdom of Ostoria's capital city is now buried under the GG
and the Perilous Portals web-module can be found on the wizards site, describes a buried city
Novularond also has "Lost Cities" in the mountain range |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 18:31:58
Thanks for digging up all the information for us Coach. |
| coach |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 18:28:20
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
I forgot that particular part in the book, also. Good memory, Rinonalyrna!
I was looking at the Epic level book on a little free time earlier, and it just stats her, and nothing on her history. I can't think of anywhere else that hasn't already been mentioned were she is. Still, the stuff from the Ruin may be the ebst source.
1. Iyraclea [Cleric/Divine Disciple/Hierophant 15/5/5 of Auril] [deceased] (FRCS p110) (ELH p302-304) (Ruin p2-3,10,105,121-133)
a. Developed epic level spells (FRCS p110) (ELH p303-304)
b. Spell-snatches young mages from Sossal, Vaasa, and Damara for unknown but sinister purpose (FRCS p110) (ELH p303)
c. Has castle of sculpted ice (FRCS p110)
d. Relentlessly assaults the people of Sossal (ELH p303) can affect weather on a large scale, cursed Sossal with a fierce premature winter preceding War in 1373 (Ruin p105)
e. Served by gelugons (ELH p303)
2. Ice Queen [lich Iyraclea?] (VGM p107)
3. Vrandak the Burnished [lich] (VGM p107)
4. Icy Claws of Iyraclea (FRCS p110) (ELH p303)
a. Gelugons (FRCS p110)
|
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 20:37:44
Hmmm... off-topic here, perhaps, but does anyone remember Ed referring to ruined cities buried under the Great Glacier? Or was is the High Ice? I wonder if these were giant cities, or remnants of another culture? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 03:48:38
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
I forgot that particular part in the book, also. Good memory, Rinonalyrna!
Thank you.
As for Iyraclea's long life--it is strongly implied that her long life was thanks to Auril, who was investing power in her to create an empire of ice. That goes without saying, since Iyraclea is an agent of Auril...the goddess who would love nothing more than to have all of Faerun covered in ice. |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 02:27:07
I forgot that particular part in the book, also. Good memory, Rinonalyrna!
I was looking at the Epic level book on a little free time earlier, and it just stats her, and nothing on her history. I can't think of anywhere else that hasn't already been mentioned were she is. Still, the stuff from the Ruin may be the ebst source. |
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