| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 01:19:59
I know the real Khelben Arunsun lives in Greyhawk, and the one that has been posing as him is actually his grandfather (so the Blackstaff's mother is actualy his daughter).
This has come up over at WotC boards, and Rip van Wormer is asking where this bit of lore appeared first in source.
I thought I knew, but now I can't seem to find it. 
Anyone?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Barastir |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 11:47:45
Nice archive, Wooly, thanks!
As for the title of the topic, for me the REAL Khelben is the elder...  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 05:42:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since Khelben the Younger was mentioned... I don't recall where I found this excellent write up of him by the esteemed Eric Boyd; I think it may have been on the now-defunct Yet Another Forgotten Realms Website. If anyone knows the original source (I'm not sure if the link in the doc is the original source), I'd be glad to provide proper attribution.
Khelben 'Ravencloak' Arunsun the Younger
Note: Thank you, Rycam, for reminding me of the existence of this write-up; I'd forgotten it existed and was parked on my hard drive. 
Nice Wooly
- I've never seen this one before.
I had quite literally forgotten it existed, until Rycam pinged me by PM. I did a search on my hard drive, just to see if I had anything, and there it was.
I used to be something of a packrat. I've gotten out of that, for the most part... Except for data. I'm a digital packrat. 
I'm a digital hoarder as well. 14 2TB hard drives filled with movies and tv shows and music and about 500 gigs of D&D pdfs :P
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 05:37:17
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since Khelben the Younger was mentioned... I don't recall where I found this excellent write up of him by the esteemed Eric Boyd; I think it may have been on the now-defunct Yet Another Forgotten Realms Website. If anyone knows the original source (I'm not sure if the link in the doc is the original source), I'd be glad to provide proper attribution.
Khelben 'Ravencloak' Arunsun the Younger
Note: Thank you, Rycam, for reminding me of the existence of this write-up; I'd forgotten it existed and was parked on my hard drive.
Nice Wooly
- I've never seen this one before.
I had quite literally forgotten it existed, until Rycam pinged me by PM. I did a search on my hard drive, just to see if I had anything, and there it was.
I used to be something of a packrat. I've gotten out of that, for the most part... Except for data. I'm a digital packrat. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 00:25:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eric pitched a short story featuring Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun to WotC for Realms of Mystery but WotC didn't go with the pitch.
-- George Krashos
Was that write-up related to his pitch, or was that something he did for the heck of it?
The write-up came first. Believe it or not, Eric was a big GH fan before he was a big FR fan ... 
-- George Krashos |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 00:04:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since Khelben the Younger was mentioned... I don't recall where I found this excellent write up of him by the esteemed Eric Boyd; I think it may have been on the now-defunct Yet Another Forgotten Realms Website. If anyone knows the original source (I'm not sure if the link in the doc is the original source), I'd be glad to provide proper attribution.
Khelben 'Ravencloak' Arunsun the Younger
Note: Thank you, Rycam, for reminding me of the existence of this write-up; I'd forgotten it existed and was parked on my hard drive.
Nice Wooly
- I've never seen this one before. |
| Rymac |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 23:38:27
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eric pitched a short story featuring Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun to WotC for Realms of Mystery but WotC didn't go with the pitch.
-- George Krashos
That would have been interesting, if nothing else for the info if Khelben the Younger kept up on the comings and goings of Waterdeep and much of the rest of Faerun.
I always imagined Khelben the Younger to be one of the plane-hopping wizards. It's a way of writing, "he's busy, and can't be disturbed." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 23:25:41
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eric pitched a short story featuring Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun to WotC for Realms of Mystery but WotC didn't go with the pitch.
-- George Krashos
Was that write-up related to his pitch, or was that something he did for the heck of it? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 22:50:48
Eric pitched a short story featuring Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun to WotC for Realms of Mystery but WotC didn't go with the pitch.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 17:10:38
Since Khelben the Younger was mentioned... I don't recall where I found this excellent write up of him by the esteemed Eric Boyd; I think it may have been on the now-defunct Yet Another Forgotten Realms Website. If anyone knows the original source (I'm not sure if the link in the doc is the original source), I'd be glad to provide proper attribution.
Khelben 'Ravencloak' Arunsun the Younger
Note: Thank you, Rycam, for reminding me of the existence of this write-up; I'd forgotten it existed and was parked on my hard drive. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 14:31:41
Unintentional subsumption was my original theory when I planned his non death but I much prefer him to get a bit grubby by his constant devotion to duty and believing he is the only one who can stop the coming darkness.
In the novel khelben did state he had to modify the kiiira quickly and that had a number of union tended consequences, so unintentional works if you like your heroes unsullied |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 12:49:34
I think we are setting up a false dichotomy here with this scenario. Khelben may have had good tendencies, and even were he (hypothetically) good aligned, if his personality subsuming Tsarra's were an unforeseen / unintended result, then there's no breach of alignment. He could have intended to sacrifice his own life. He also could have intended to use the kiira as a magic jar, and it wound up not working quite right due to the haste with which it was prepared.
In multiple possible scenarios, if Khelben's theorized return via subsuming the heir to the Blackstaff were an unintended consequence, he wouldn't have been acting contrary to his alignment. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 11:45:57
Well I like to view the realms characters as real people and as such anything goes. Even those with the strongest moral code can succumb to temptation, those who vow never to kill may do so in order to protect their loved ones. Once you have committed one act that goes against your moral compass that compass is forever skewed making it easier to commit other acts.
You kill one tyrant, then a thousand tyrants, one innocent can't be all that bad if it saves the entire world. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 11:39:53
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I think the greater good might win out here. He was preparing to combat a world destroying threat (that prophecy of the moon stars). If he perhaps divined that tsarra was supposed to die as well when those magic items exploded (killing her friend) then she is meant to die anyway.
So him slowly replacing her personality in a way that she wouldn't even notice is probably an act of mercy given that her soul could have been bound to him for all eternity.
Khelben and his moon stars have assassinated people, he has sent people to their deaths (and I bet not all of them knew or were willing to die). He does evil when he must if it results in the greater good. I am pretty sure his alignment was lawful neutral so it fits him quite well i think.
But that's just how I view him. He's not a goody two shoes superman, he's the pragmatic and realistic batman. Sometimes batman kills people, and not just the bad guys.
You have his alignment correct, almost. He is/was lawful neutral, with good tendencies - LN(G). This means that instead of not believing in the spectrum of good/evil actions, that his neutrality is tempered with a moral code and a sense of right and wrong. This moral code however is more nuanced than a LG character's - he sees the gray areas between black and white rules.
Assassination is not an inherently evil act (if you assassinate a evil tyrant, for example). But innately evil acts do exist and this one would fall into that category in my book (and old 2nd ed rule books too :P - I can't speak to whether there were any adjustments made to alignment rules later). His moral code would make this a no go I'd say. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 11:14:05
Well I think the greater good might win out here. He was preparing to combat a world destroying threat (that prophecy of the moon stars). If he perhaps divined that tsarra was supposed to die as well when those magic items exploded (killing her friend) then she is meant to die anyway.
So him slowly replacing her personality in a way that she wouldn't even notice is probably an act of mercy given that her soul could have been bound to him for all eternity.
Khelben and his moon stars have assassinated people, he has sent people to their deaths (and I bet not all of them knew or were willing to die). He does evil when he must if it results in the greater good. I am pretty sure his alignment was lawful neutral so it fits him quite well i think.
But that's just how I view him. He's not a goody two shoes superman, he's the pragmatic and realistic batman. Sometimes batman kills people, and not just the bad guys. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 10:19:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The only problem with this was actually noted in the book as the reason for his urgency - subsuming Tsarra would be an explicitly evil act (akin to use of the Bloodstone of Fistandantilus a la Dragonlance). This kind of thing would be out of character for Khelben I'd say.
I agree. The above would be a very evil act and Kelben was much, but not evil. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 09:16:58
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
That means his body was destroyed, his wife thought he was dead, even his replacement thought he was dead. Even better his replacement and wife were trying to pretend he was still alive.
So when the personality replacement was complete, khelbens was tsarra who was pretending to be khelben. It's the ultimate double bluff. Then all he needed to do was fake his death again (although this time he is tsarra so it's really faking her death) and lo and behold he gets a few more centuries as a free agent and all his enemies really think he is dead now.
The only problem with this was actually noted in the book as the reason for his urgency - subsuming Tsarra would be an explicitly evil act (akin to use of the Bloodstone of Fistandantilus a la Dragonlance). This kind of thing would be out of character for Khelben I'd say. Much simpler morally to do some kind of permanent magic jar to the kirra or tower. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 08:34:29
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I like Khelben, I think he died a good death and should remain dead. Instead, I'd love to see a descendant of Khelben assume his place -- maybe Krehlan had a son we've never found out about? I'd have this replacement have some of his ancestor's plans-within-plans and do-what-needs-to-be-done nature, but mix it up with some of Laeral's sense of fun and love of mischief.
I like this idea. I'm toying with a different route for my home game, but haven't settled on particulars yet. I've got a NPC that I've hinted might be Laeral's daughter, and I haven't decided if I want to confirm that yet or not.
I was thinking of having a half-sibling duo, the NPC I mentioned being one, and a brother that's actually Khelben's son.
And I do agree that Steven gave the Blackstaff a good death and legacy. Some of the later Blackstaves I haven't warmed up to, but I liked the legacy of passing on the title.
It made succeeding Khelben as Blackstaff something a good PC could achieve in a home game, and that possibility is thrilling.
However, I also like Masked Mage's theory on horcruxes. I need to find a way to blend the two. Maybe take that PC-becomes the Blackstaff route, and winds up being the vessel through which Khelben is reincarnated.
Or maybe that's why Laeral is being so... distant from the current Blackstaff, according to the SCAG? He is reincarnated... but he isn't Khelben... as she knew him. I haven't read beyond Blackstaff Tower, so maybe there's prior lore to gainsay me.
Sorry to ramble. 
I came up with a similar way for khelben to return but using events and items from his death. Khelben was always about the greater good, he would sacrifice his life and others, lie, cheat, steal, murder, and consort with the enemy if in the end it achieved a greater good (as he saw it). Also he had faked his own death so many times he had practised it into a finely honed art. However his enemies had begun to figure out who he was and were working against him more and more effectively and because of that he needed to disappear but even his most complicated faked death wouldn't be enough.
In the black staff he hastily modified a kiiira and gave it to tsarra through which they could share thoughts, memories, and even bodies (khelbens was destroyed I believe at the end but he performed the ritual through tsarra).
So what if that kiiira was part of khelbens plan all along. What if it slowly replaced tsarras personality with his.
That means his body was destroyed, his wife thought he was dead, even his replacement thought he was dead. Even better his replacement and wife were trying to pretend he was still alive.
So when the personality replacement was complete, khelbens was tsarra who was pretending to be khelben. It's the ultimate double bluff. Then all he needed to do was fake his death again (although this time he is tsarra so it's really faking her death) and lo and behold he gets a few more centuries as a free agent and all his enemies really think he is dead now. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 07:55:55
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
And since keeping up appearances is an art Waterdhavian noblewomen learn at their mothers' knees, Cassandra played her part well--even to treating the great archmage as if he actually were her younger brother.
The conversation is all about Khelben, of course, but I find this piece of information worth as much as anything I've yet read in this scroll (emphasis mine).
I wish I had the time to write up NPCs for Waterdeep. Pieces of information like the above make it a lot easier to do. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 07:15:15
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Only problem with going that route is that Mordenkainen is a staple character in Ed's Wizard's Three articles - normally portrayed as ignorant of events and personalities in the Realms. Khelben is anything but that.
Yeah, I forgot about that, although I meant Khelben the Younger(i.e. the Khelben we know and love grandson), who has departed Faerun for Oerth some time ago, but he also would rather knowlegable of the Realms. Again, maybe Mordenkainen/Khelben the Younger had an encounter with an memory eating monster or something... |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 04:26:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I like Khelben, I think he died a good death and should remain dead. Instead, I'd love to see a descendant of Khelben assume his place -- maybe Krehlan had a son we've never found out about? I'd have this replacement have some of his ancestor's plans-within-plans and do-what-needs-to-be-done nature, but mix it up with some of Laeral's sense of fun and love of mischief.
I like this idea. I'm toying with a different route for my home game, but haven't settled on particulars yet. I've got a NPC that I've hinted might be Laeral's daughter, and I haven't decided if I want to confirm that yet or not.
I was thinking of having a half-sibling duo, the NPC I mentioned being one, and a brother that's actually Khelben's son.
And I do agree that Steven gave the Blackstaff a good death and legacy. Some of the later Blackstaves I haven't warmed up to, but I liked the legacy of passing on the title.
It made succeeding Khelben as Blackstaff something a good PC could achieve in a home game, and that possibility is thrilling.
However, I also like Masked Mage's theory on horcruxes. I need to find a way to blend the two. Maybe take that PC-becomes the Blackstaff route, and winds up being the vessel through which Khelben is reincarnated.
Or maybe that's why Laeral is being so... distant from the current Blackstaff, according to the SCAG? He is reincarnated... but he isn't Khelben... as she knew him. I haven't read beyond Blackstaff Tower, so maybe there's prior lore to gainsay me.
Sorry to ramble. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 03:53:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I like Khelben, I think he died a good death and should remain dead. Instead, I'd love to see a descendant of Khelben assume his place -- maybe Krehlan had a son we've never found out about? I'd have this replacement have some of his ancestor's plans-within-plans and do-what-needs-to-be-done nature, but mix it up with some of Laeral's sense of fun and love of mischief.
I on the other hand thought Khelben's death was the worst conceived and executed FR novel ever written - so contrived. Did it make any sense at all that Khelben was able to outwit and outgun Frostrune with such casual ease when Frostrune was the one responsible for the abduction of Halaster and Khelben was impotent to do anything about it? The re-evaluation of high magic rituals to be able to not only be cast but centered by non-elves / non high-magi was the biggest collapse in realms casting structure ever. The idea of the sharn being elves magically hiding in the underdark (when it would have been easier to just walk through a gate to elsewhere, or any number of other solutions) was pounding a round peg and a square peg into a single triangular whole. The repurposing of the moonblades took the best magic item concept ever created in FR and turned it into cookie cutter enchantment.
But I'm ranting too much about a book from years ago...
What the book did do, however is create a VERY easy means of bringing Khelben back. He spirit was, in essence, split apart by the magic - a part of him lived on in the kiira and his tower.
Does this sound remarkably like a Horcrux to anyone else? Obviously it would need a more realmsian name, but there are all kinds of doors open for bringing back the Blackstaff (oh, by the way, I hated how the book turned "the Blackstaff" into a title of office instead of a nickname HATED IT).
kay - I'm Done :) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 03:30:51
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, one could make that Mordenkainen IS Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun. Mordenkainen place of birth is stated as unknown, and his early past is also an enigma. In Ed's posts some portals between Crystal Spheres can lead to different time periods, so this could be used to fix any chronological problems.
Only problem with going that route is that Mordenkainen is a staple character in Ed's Wizard's Three articles - normally portrayed as ignorant of events and personalities in the Realms. Khelben is anything but that.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 23:53:13
As much as I like Khelben, I think he died a good death and should remain dead. Instead, I'd love to see a descendant of Khelben assume his place -- maybe Krehlan had a son we've never found out about? I'd have this replacement have some of his ancestor's plans-within-plans and do-what-needs-to-be-done nature, but mix it up with some of Laeral's sense of fun and love of mischief. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 17:54:36
Laeral is back and basically running Waterdeep now. Why not bring Khelben back, either younger or older version? I think in about 2 years we should reach the OGB world status at this rate :) |
| Baltas |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 16:17:46
quote:
Originally posted by Sarrivin
Hey buddies. Any new information on this topic to share?
I personally really mourn the passing of real Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, so I guess I will use Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun as a real "Blackstaff" returning to Forgotten Realms in my Sword Coast Legends Campaigns.
As a dedicated, long-time and once very active Dungeon Master, I've created a major Polish portal for this PC (and soon console too) game, that really brought my interest back to Dungeons & Dragons. No PC game before captured that D&D feeling for me as good as Sword Coast Legends. I really recommend to try it, every one. We need good storytellers and DMs there.
Also, I recommend this read from folks playing in Greyhawk (Oerth):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12313
Plus, come and talk with us here, I've posted in this thread on the above topic: https://forums.swordcoast.com/index.php?/topic/146-what-old-characters-from-the-books-and-other-dd-games-you-want-to-see-or-to-be-mentioned/?p=84818 : )
I loved Greyhawk as much as FR, shame it isn't developed anymore...
Interesting links, and nice to know another person person who really enjoys the (criminaly underrated I think) Sword Coast Legends.
This threads on the Candlekeep Forum might interest you:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20433
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20538
Also, as a fellow Pole, thank you for creating http://www.swordcoast.pl .
But returning to the younger Khelben...
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
If you're a big Greyhawk fan, you can always use Mordenkainen. Khelben always seemed like the Realm's answer to him anyways - both might mages watching over a major city with powerful archmage colleagues, a horde or magical toys and mighty spells aplenty. I actually used the face for Mordenkainen from Mordenkainen's Adventure as the NPC picture of Khelben because they look so similar :)
Well, one could make that Mordenkainen IS Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun. Mordenkainen place of birth is stated as unknown, and his early past is also an enigma. In Ed's posts some portals between Crystal Spheres can lead to different time periods, so this could be used to fix any chronological problems. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 14:55:53
I'll check my references at home tonight.
And I also think he looks a lot like Mordenkainen, but I don't know much of Greyhawk to say that the similarities go beyond appearance.
EDIT: I only found Khelben (the elder) and the similarly named Khenel Baronsun in the Realmspace book. I think the only source for the younger Khelben I've ever seen is in the 2e sourcebok The Code of the Harpers... |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 08:13:48
quote:
Originally posted by Sarrivin
I personally really mourn the passing of real Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, so I guess I will use Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun as a real "Blackstaff" returning to Forgotten Realms in my Sword Coast Legends Campaigns.
You can always have the new/old Mystra resurrect him in response to some pressing need or another. Death is never a final thing in D&D. Flarr was resurrected centuries later without people getting too riled.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarrivin
I loved Greyhawk as much as FR, shame it isn't developed anymore...
If you're a big Greyhawk fan, you can always use Mordenkainen. Khelben always seemed like the Realm's answer to him anyways - both might mages watching over a major city with powerful archmage colleagues, a horde or magical toys and mighty spells aplenty. I actually used the face for Mordenkainen from Mordenkainen's Adventure as the NPC picture of Khelben because they look so similar :) |
| Sarrivin |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 04:52:33
Hey buddies. Any new information on this topic to share?
I personally really mourn the passing of real Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, so I guess I will use Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun as a real "Blackstaff" returning to Forgotten Realms in my Sword Coast Legends Campaigns.
As a dedicated, long-time and once very active Dungeon Master, I've created a major Polish portal for this PC (and soon console too) game, that really brought my interest back to Dungeons & Dragons. No PC game before captured that D&D feeling for me as good as Sword Coast Legends. I really recommend to try it, every one. We need good storytellers and DMs there.
Also, I recommend this read from folks playing in Greyhawk (Oerth):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12313
Plus, come and talk with us here, I've posted in this thread on the above topic: https://forums.swordcoast.com/index.php?/topic/146-what-old-characters-from-the-books-and-other-dd-games-you-want-to-see-or-to-be-mentioned/?p=84818 : )
I loved Greyhawk as much as FR, shame it isn't developed anymore... |
| Jakk |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 03:07:05
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Steven Schend has a fully fleshed out and footnoted family line for Khelben and his many wives and progeny. The Thanns and the Wands intersect with this line on more than a few occcasions as do various Tethyrian families such as the Idogyrs.
I'm not aware of any fully fleshed out Wands or Thann family lines.
-- George Krashos
I've inquired about the Arunsun family line before, and Steven is reluctant to release it for entirely understandable reasons... in part, the NDAs still in effect regarding his and Laeral's children (or one of them, anyway). Mind you, this was several months ago... perhaps things have changed, George? I'm also curious about the several Winters that married into the Wyvernspur line... are they all related to Lord Tessaril Winter, or can this be confirmed without violating NDA's?
Edit:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's a shame. I wouldn't mind seeing a working-up of the family line for the "Thann clan." 
I would like to see this as well... I'm compiling all the information I can find with the resources at my disposal (which include PDFs of a very small subset of the 1E and 2E products that I own (which in turn is a very large subset, if not all, of the gaming products released, but no novels). If there is any relevant lore in novels, hopefully someone can bring it to my attention... please? Thanks! |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 17:33:39
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
One of the confusions is that Elaine's Lady Thann character believed the Blackstaff to be HER little brother, at least publicly, as was the pose/ruse (even though she's far too smart to have really been fooled for too long, like Danilo).
I'm not entirely sure how to parse that sentence, but just to set the record straight, of course Cassandra Thann knew the master of Blackstaff Tower was not, in fact, her brother.
When an ancient, insanely powerful wizard falls out of the family tree, tells you he's taking over for your brother, and suggests you play along, that's what you do. And since keeping up appearances is an art Waterdhavian noblewomen learn at their mothers' knees, Cassandra played her part well--even to treating the great archmage as if he actually were her younger brother.
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