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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 01:19:59
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I know the real Khelben Arunsun lives in Greyhawk, and the one that has been posing as him is actually his grandfather (so the Blackstaff's mother is actualy his daughter).
This has come up over at WotC boards, and Rip van Wormer is asking where this bit of lore appeared first in source.
I thought I knew, but now I can't seem to find it. 
Anyone?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 02:16:18
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| I recall reading about this somewhere....its fairly recent (past decade) information IIRC right? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 02:47:14
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I don't think so.
I recall it was one of the first things I learned about the setting when I switched from Greyhawk to the Forgotten Realms, which would put it somewhere early-to mid 90's.
I could be mistaken, but it really struck a cord with me, since I have loved both setttings so. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 03:07:47
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| It's in the FR FAQ on the main part of Keep but it doesn't list the source where this info came from. HMMM.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 03:24:31
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| Isn't it in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves or one of those books????? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 03:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know the real Khelben Arunsun lives in Greyhawk, and the one that has been posing as him is actually his grandfather (so the Blackstaff's mother is actualy his daughter).
-Wow that seems like trailer park stuff right there. 
-On topic, I have no clue. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 04:36:44
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| Page 137 of the Grand History of the Realms mentions Khelben the Younger leaving for another world, and his grandfather assuming his place. I don't know if it's ever been specified in printed Realms lore where he went. I'm pretty sure the Greyhawk info comes from Steven, but there could be Greyhawk material that confirms this -- other than the novels, I've never owned more than a few Greyhawk products. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 04:53:18
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Markus did you ask Steven?
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 04:57:44
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Many years ago, Eric Boyd wrote a fan article that had Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun the Younger a mage of Greyhawk. That's never been confirmed in any FR product however -- the "Greyhawk" part that is.
The article used to be maintained on AJA's site. But I can't seem to find it at the moment, even with the "WayBack Machine."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 05:16:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Many years ago, Eric Boyd wrote a fan article that had Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun the Younger a mage of Greyhawk. That's never been confirmed in any FR product however -- the "Greyhawk" part that is.
The article used to be maintained on AJA's site. But I can't seem to find it at the moment, even with the "WayBack Machine."
You mean this? http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18095939&postcount=8
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 17 Mar 2009 05:20:09 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 06:16:02
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I was having problems with the link too.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 07:31:53
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| Well, I'll be... I was convinced that the "Grandson" connection was mentioned for the first time in one of the Spelljammer accessories. Just did a search through the usual suspects (Greyspace, Realmspace, War Captain's Companion) and came up with nothing. Perhaps Eric's fan article was the original source. |
Edited by - Thauramarth on 17 Mar 2009 07:36:31 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 10:13:41
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| Ah the complexities of the realms. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Many years ago, Eric Boyd wrote a fan article that had Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun the Younger a mage of Greyhawk. That's never been confirmed in any FR product however -- the "Greyhawk" part that is.
The article used to be maintained on AJA's site. But I can't seem to find it at the moment, even with the "WayBack Machine."
You mean this? http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18095939&postcount=8
BRIMSTONE
I'll be dipped... I thought I'd copied all the articles from that site before it disappeared. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Well, I'll be... I was convinced that the "Grandson" connection was mentioned for the first time in one of the Spelljammer accessories. Just did a search through the usual suspects (Greyspace, Realmspace, War Captain's Companion) and came up with nothing. Perhaps Eric's fan article was the original source.
When I was looking for the info yesterday, I noted a blurb saying that Eric's article was where that bit came from. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 15:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Well, I'll be... I was convinced that the "Grandson" connection was mentioned for the first time in one of the Spelljammer accessories. Just did a search through the usual suspects (Greyspace, Realmspace, War Captain's Companion) and came up with nothing. Perhaps Eric's fan article was the original source.
You may just have the right of it... I am positive I read it in a physical sourcebook, not an article or FAQ or any such thing. While thinking hard where else to look last night, I also remember it may have not been in either a FR or GH source (I have already gone through ALL of my GH sources) - my main thought now is a Spelljammer accessory, possibly Greyspace, but its also possible it's a Planescape or even a Ravenloft product!
Here's the thing - when I first read that bit, a LONG time ago, it was in a paragraph that also established other connections between the two worlds, including the fact that Vangerdehast was a frequent visitor to Oerth at one point, and I think he may have even had a 'girlfriend' there (Although I am hazy and very unsure about that last part).
I'm going to dig through my Spelljammer stuff today - I have a feeling it has something to do with the 'Stable Three'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2009 15:18:24 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 17:01:54
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| I don't recall where this comes from, but I do conclusively remember that Khelben the Younger (who is living on Oerth) is the son of Zelphar and Lhestyn, Zelphar being the son of Khelben the Elder. Eric can probably clear up the details for us... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 03:14:08
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Thers a little bit in the Waterdeep boxed set form 2e, but it actually leaves me with more questions then anything else - I could have sworn Khelben's 'mother' was realy his daughter, and yet that entry has Khelben the Elder as her brother, and her son is Khelben the younger (making him the blackstaff's nephew, NOT grandson.
I'll find it... I'm 99% positive at this point it's in neither an FR or GH source (all of which I have, AFAIK... and if I am missing one or two, then obviously I didn't read it there).
Going through all my SJ stuff is painful - it was far from my favorite setting - but it has given me some useful stuff (for instance, I found a Torillian city that I don't recognize, in the Greyspace source!)
Its like I always say, Realmslore has a way of showing up in the oddest places. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2009 03:14:39 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 21:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Many years ago, Eric Boyd wrote a fan article that had Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun the Younger a mage of Greyhawk. That's never been confirmed in any FR product however -- the "Greyhawk" part that is.
The article used to be maintained on AJA's site. But I can't seem to find it at the moment, even with the "WayBack Machine."
You mean this? http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18095939&postcount=8
BRIMSTONE
I'll be dipped... I thought I'd copied all the articles from that site before it disappeared.
Gotcha! I copied the entire article into Word document. Eric did a splendid job - footnotes galore. I did not see any reference in the footnotes that would indicate that the presence of Khelben the Younger was ever documented in a canon product, and the article lists "originally created by Eric Boyd," so the Khelben junior connection to Oerth seems to have been created by Eric. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 22:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Many years ago, Eric Boyd wrote a fan article that had Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun the Younger a mage of Greyhawk. That's never been confirmed in any FR product however -- the "Greyhawk" part that is.
The article used to be maintained on AJA's site. But I can't seem to find it at the moment, even with the "WayBack Machine."
You mean this? http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18095939&postcount=8
BRIMSTONE
I'll be dipped... I thought I'd copied all the articles from that site before it disappeared.
Gotcha! I copied the entire article into Word document. Eric did a splendid job - footnotes galore. I did not see any reference in the footnotes that would indicate that the presence of Khelben the Younger was ever documented in a canon product, and the article lists "originally created by Eric Boyd," so the Khelben junior connection to Oerth seems to have been created by Eric.
It's not a direct confirmation, but Elminster himself does make the possible connection between Ravencloak and "Greyhawk" through speculation in The Code of the Harpers on pg. 48:- "He settled in another world (Oerth, Elminster suspects) to make his own life."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 17:07:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thers a little bit in the Waterdeep boxed set form 2e, but it actually leaves me with more questions then anything else - I could have sworn Khelben's 'mother' was realy his daughter, and yet that entry has Khelben the Elder as her brother, and her son is Khelben the younger (making him the blackstaff's nephew, NOT grandson.
I'll find it... I'm 99% positive at this point it's in neither an FR or GH source (all of which I have, AFAIK... and if I am missing one or two, then obviously I didn't read it there).
Going through all my SJ stuff is painful - it was far from my favorite setting - but it has given me some useful stuff (for instance, I found a Torillian city that I don't recognize, in the Greyspace source!)
Its like I always say, Realmslore has a way of showing up in the oddest places.
Going from memory here....
Khelben Arunsun the Younger (not Akhelben/the Nameless Chosen/etc) is the son of Zelphar Arunsun (son of Akhelben) and Lhestyn. I sure hope I didn't write anything different in the 2E CoS box, as that's where I really cut my teeth on Waterdeep and Blackstaff lore....
One of the confusions is that Elaine's Lady Thann character believed the Blackstaff to be HER little brother, at least publicly, as was the pose/ruse (even though she's far too smart to have really been fooled for too long, like Danilo).
Yeah, keeping the Khelbens straight was what led me to scribble down a semi-detailed family tree (which, alas, remains under an NDA until I can pry it out from under).
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 01:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Going from memory here....
Khelben Arunsun the Younger (not Akhelben/the Nameless Chosen/etc) is the son of Zelphar Arunsun (son of Akhelben) and Lhestyn. I sure hope I didn't write anything different in the 2E CoS box, as that's where I really cut my teeth on Waterdeep and Blackstaff lore....
One of the confusions is that Elaine's Lady Thann character believed the Blackstaff to be HER little brother, at least publicly, as was the pose/ruse (even though she's far too smart to have really been fooled for too long, like Danilo).
Yeah, keeping the Khelbens straight was what led me to scribble down a semi-detailed family tree (which, alas, remains under an NDA until I can pry it out from under).
Steven
Resurrecting this thread in the hopes that this NDA has become easier to lift with the completion of the 4E Realms publication schedule... in fact, I'm surprised this NDA is still necessary after the publication of "Blackstaff"... and for two other reasons, one of which related (pun intended), one not.
1) Is there a Thann family tree, independent of Khelben's, that isn't covered by NDA?
2) Is there a Wands family tree anywhere that isn't covered by NDA?
I'm expecting "No" to both questions, as it seems to me that every bit of lore I ask for is under NDA, whether the NDA is expiration-worthy or not. Some would say that means that I'm asking the wrong questions; I would say that means that others are being too secretive. Lore does no good if it is not shared, I say, and keeping it bottled up for DnDI articles is pointless; they don't want articles filled with lore, they want articles filled with 4E stat blocks and other things that a computer can understand. 
Anyway, I'm asking the questions because the question that isn't asked will never be answered.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 03:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Anyway, I'm asking the questions because the question that isn't asked will never be answered.
And more than likely, nor will the NDA-clad question ever be answered. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 16:06:10
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I think of NDA's as "Jakk Attractors". 
He is like the Moth, and they are the flame. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 00:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think of NDA's as "Jakk Attractors".
He is like the Moth, and they are the flame.
Yeah, you've figured me out... there's something about "big" Realmslore questions with no published answers that eat away at my sanity. (Alaundo: We need a really "deranged" looking smiley here.) (Close enough... I guess.) |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 02:34:10
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Steven Schend has a fully fleshed out and footnoted family line for Khelben and his many wives and progeny. The Thanns and the Wands intersect with this line on more than a few occcasions as do various Tethyrian families such as the Idogyrs.
I'm not aware of any fully fleshed out Wands or Thann family lines.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 17:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
One of the confusions is that Elaine's Lady Thann character believed the Blackstaff to be HER little brother, at least publicly, as was the pose/ruse (even though she's far too smart to have really been fooled for too long, like Danilo).
I'm not entirely sure how to parse that sentence, but just to set the record straight, of course Cassandra Thann knew the master of Blackstaff Tower was not, in fact, her brother.
When an ancient, insanely powerful wizard falls out of the family tree, tells you he's taking over for your brother, and suggests you play along, that's what you do. And since keeping up appearances is an art Waterdhavian noblewomen learn at their mothers' knees, Cassandra played her part well--even to treating the great archmage as if he actually were her younger brother.
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 03:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Steven Schend has a fully fleshed out and footnoted family line for Khelben and his many wives and progeny. The Thanns and the Wands intersect with this line on more than a few occcasions as do various Tethyrian families such as the Idogyrs.
I'm not aware of any fully fleshed out Wands or Thann family lines.
-- George Krashos
I've inquired about the Arunsun family line before, and Steven is reluctant to release it for entirely understandable reasons... in part, the NDAs still in effect regarding his and Laeral's children (or one of them, anyway). Mind you, this was several months ago... perhaps things have changed, George? I'm also curious about the several Winters that married into the Wyvernspur line... are they all related to Lord Tessaril Winter, or can this be confirmed without violating NDA's?
Edit:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's a shame. I wouldn't mind seeing a working-up of the family line for the "Thann clan." 
I would like to see this as well... I'm compiling all the information I can find with the resources at my disposal (which include PDFs of a very small subset of the 1E and 2E products that I own (which in turn is a very large subset, if not all, of the gaming products released, but no novels). If there is any relevant lore in novels, hopefully someone can bring it to my attention... please? Thanks! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 12 Aug 2009 00:29:24 |
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Topic |
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The real Khelben?
