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Originally posted by Kuje

I agree with you and many of us, through the years, for free, have offered to help authors/game designers patch up lore or look up material.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't agree. If I choose to write about a location, and there's only one source that describes that location, I'm going to familiarize myself with that one source. If I'm going to say something about a specific spot within that location, I'm going to make sure I know where it is -- and if I decide to relocate it, I'm going to have at least a sentence to say why it was relocated.

If a person is going to write for a setting, it is not unreasonable to ask that they try to adhere to the details of that setting. Especially when those details are easily verified.

Hells, I wrote a short story set in ruined Myth Drannor, and I went backwards and forwards thru that boxed set, to make sure I got everything right. If a fan with his own life demands can do that for his own project, an author earning money can certainly do the same.

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Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani

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Originally posted by Kuje
Sad though that many fans usually know more about the setting, and the errors, then the authors/game designers that have been working on the setting for years.....

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Itīs annoying, yes. But in defense of the designers and authors, for years they having been writing these things under pressure to meet deadlines, after which the material is edited by others and cast onto the market, by which time the writers have already begun scribbling furiously to meet the next deadline for the next project. It must be difficult for them to keep track of all of their own writing, let alone that of all of the other writers. Only the scribes of the Candlekeep have the time to page through the lore and spot the contradictions and omissions.
Afet

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Originally posted by Kuje
Sad though that many fans usually know more about the setting, and the errors, then the authors/game designers that have been working on the setting for years.....

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Bah. I'm so sick of pointless retcons that I'm starting to ignore them. I find it quite irksome that one non-descriptive line in a novel is considered more definitive than a full-on description in a regional sourcebook (boxed set, in this case). When one easy sentence can reconcile conflicting lore, there is no reason to brush aside something inconvenient.

Yes, I know it's an official retcon, but that doesn't change any of what I said. It's things like that that make me favor a global reset to pre-3E for the setting.

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Originally posted by Kuje

Hate to bring this up but Rich did mean that the Dawnspire that was destroyed was the one that was supposed to be outside the ruins. I know he's commented on this before even though he said it was inside the ruins.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Or if it did, you could do what I think LM should have done: besiege the Dawnspire instead of destroying it. Turn it into another front, and allow the PC's to have a real impact in helping them stave off death and defeat.

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They didn't destroy the Dawnspire, though. It was located outside of the ruins, and the destroyed temple (of which we have no details) was inside the ruins.

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Or if it did, you could do what I think LM should have done: besiege the Dawnspire instead of destroying it. Turn it into another front, and allow the PC's to have a real impact in helping them stave off death and defeat.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I'm a huge fan of Shaundakul (and Lathander), but when it comes to which Myth Drannan temple to go to, Lathander has got it. At least until the fey'ri moved in.

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Originally posted by Jakk


Back on topic: I don't have my copy of RoMD with me at the moment... what was it about the mythal (or its corruption) that trapped the baatezu inside while allowing others free passage in and out, and was it that same effect that trapped the phaerimm there as well? I'm probably forgetting something basic; I want my books!

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early 700s DR: Myth Drannor sacked by an Army of
Darkness led by three nycaloths.
1344 DR/Year of Moonfall: Retreat begins. Elves of the
the Elven Court abandon residence in the woods around
the ruins of Myth Drannor, and for the first time
leave those ruins unguarded, for others to plunder.
1355 DR: Zhent priests of Bane serving the High
Imperceptor (who at the time was looking for allies
and troops in his struggle for supremacy within the
Zhentarim against Fzoul and Manshoon) open a gate (3E:
portal) to the Nine Hells in the part of the Myth
Drannan ruins known as Burial Glen.
Depraved Bane worshippers start sacrificing
non-believers to the devils and praying to them for
aid.
Zhentarim wizards (Hesperdan and others) who find out
about this incipient disaster (devils roaming the
Realms unrestricted, and bringing in armies of
reinforcements? Yikes!) hastily cast spells to modify
the decaying mythal of the city, to restrict the
devils in two ways: they can't personally gate in
other devils, and they can't move more than 70 yards
beyond the ruins (for example, they can't reach
Lovers' Glade).

As the mythal continued to decay, devils roamed
farther afield, but as soon as this was noticed,
Mystra sent her servants (Chosen, Weavespinners,
Pursuivants Arcane, et al) to raise a new mythal
AROUND the decaying original, to duplicate the
original restrictions. Azuth aided directly in its
creation.
So the result is this: individual devils (of various
sorts) did get out into the woods to roam, but most
have since been slain, and the restrictions remain.
It's not known what other properties the new mythal
may have, so any author is free to add little things
for dramatic effect or storytelling purposes.

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Originally posted by Ardashir

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And another option just occurred to me... Since you're interested in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set, then it's a safe assumption your game happens before the events of the Last Mythal trilogy. That means that the Dawnspire is still around.

It's a temple of Lathander located outside of Myth Drannor.

So you could use that as a base for the PCs to operate from. It's close to, but not within, Myth Drannor. PCs could be sent on all sorts of missions in the surrounding area, and they'll have a good place to go for rest and healing. Plus, when they're high enough in level, the Dawnspire gives them a place close to Myth Drannor that they can stage out of for their trips into the fallen city. And the priests in the temple could also act as patrons, giving the the various missions.

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I like that idea, but didn't the ruins also have a temple to Shandakul that was intended as a base of operations? Shaundakul's Throne, I think it was called?

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah, that's the easy way around that one. I do wish, however, that something had been stated so that we didn't have to look for our own explanations.

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But that can be just as much fun, sometimes, as having an official answer.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And another option just occurred to me... Since you're interested in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set, then it's a safe assumption your game happens before the events of the Last Mythal trilogy. That means that the Dawnspire is still around.

It's a temple of Lathander located outside of Myth Drannor.

So you could use that as a base for the PCs to operate from. It's close to, but not within, Myth Drannor. PCs could be sent on all sorts of missions in the surrounding area, and they'll have a good place to go for rest and healing. Plus, when they're high enough in level, the Dawnspire gives them a place close to Myth Drannor that they can stage out of for their trips into the fallen city. And the priests in the temple could also act as patrons, giving the the various missions.

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

I'm also a big fan of the Beneath the Twisted Tower adventure that was contained in the 2e FR Campaign Boxed Set (the revised one, with a red-robed Elminster amid watery bubbles on the cover). It's meant for 1st level adventurers, but it's easily scalable.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah, that's the easy way around that one. I do wish, however, that something had been stated so that we didn't have to look for our own explanations.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

As I recall, the Dawnspire wasn't really mentioned in the Last Mythal trilogy... We just had a blurb about a destroyed temple.

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Originally posted by The Sage

With regard to the apparent location inconsistency between the Dawnspire's details in RoMD and the "Last Mythal" trilogy, I've sometimes felt that there is an 'easy way around it' -- between what we're told in Ruins and what's referenced in the "Last Mythal" books.

Consider that the novel tells us about the temple's destruction [though it's said to be located within Myth Drannor] and the description of the Dawnspire in Ruins clearly places it outside of Myth Drannor. Thus, one could suggest that whatever priests of the clergy for the Dawnspire remained, after what we're told in RoMD, decided to shift parts of the temple into Myth Drannor itself.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani

I like the Dawnspire Temple idea as well, though I confess I know nothing about it. Where would I find info about it (novels or supplements)?

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See the aforementioned Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set. And the "Last Mythal" trilogy.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And another option just occurred to me... Since you're interested in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set, then it's a safe assumption your game happens before the events of the Last Mythal trilogy. That means that the Dawnspire is still around.

It's a temple of Lathander located outside of Myth Drannor. In the Sage Advice column of Dragon 208 (and later confirmed by Ed):

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Where within Myth Drannor is The Dawnspire (the temple of Lathander)? I've looked through the book twice and I can't find a clue. I know the site is supposed to cover about five acres, but there's no scale on the map. Is that an oversight?

TSR's Karen Boomgarden and I also spent a great deal of time poring over the book and the Myth Drannor maps trying to find the answer to this one. (The floor in Karen's cubical is just about large enough to accommodate all the maps at once. An onlooker would have had a grand time watching the two of us trying to study the maps without soiling or tearing them with our shoes.) Karen and I suggest placing the temple in the Westfields area, just south of the Burial Glen (see the Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor, page 15.)

There isn't supposed to be a scale printed on the maps. Myth Drannor's Mythal, see the Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor pages 22-31) and the corrupting influences of all the gates and wild magic make all distances within the ruins distorted and variable."

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So you could use that as a base for the PCs to operate from. It's close to, but not within, Myth Drannor. PCs could be sent on all sorts of missions in the surrounding area, and they'll have a good place to go for rest and healing. Plus, when they're high enough in level, the Dawnspire gives them a place close to Myth Drannor that they can stage out of for their trips into the fallen city. And the priests in the temple could also act as patrons, giving the the various missions.

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Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani

I like the Dawnspire Temple idea as well, though I confess I know nothing about it. Where would I find info about it (novels or supplements)?

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

I'm also a big fan of the Beneath the Twisted Tower adventure that was contained in the 2e FR Campaign Boxed Set (the revised one, with a red-robed Elminster amid watery bubbles on the cover). It's meant for 1st level adventurers, but it's easily scalable.

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Doom of Daggerdale is another beginning adventure that could easily be scaled up to challenge 4th or 5th level PC's.

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Where within Myth Drannor is The Dawnspire (the temple of Lathander)? I've looked through the book twice and I can't find a clue. I know the site is supposed to cover about five acres, but there's no scale on the map. Is that an oversight?

TSR's Karen Boomgarden and I also spent a great deal of time poring over the book and the Myth Drannor maps trying to find the answer to this one. (The floor in Karen's cubical is just about large enough to accommodate all the maps at once. An onlooker would have had a grand time watching the two of us trying to study the maps without soiling or tearing them with our shoes.) Karen and I suggest placing the temple in the Westfields area, just south of the Burial Glen (see the Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor, page 15.)

There isn't supposed to be a scale printed on the maps. Myth Drannor's Mythal, see the Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor pages 22-31) and the corrupting influences of all the gates and wild magic make all distances within the ruins distorted and variable."

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