| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 06:13:00
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080807a
-The Harpers are disbanded. 
-High Lady Alustriel of Silverymoon is DEAD! 
BRIMSTONE  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 20:09:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
'small numbers' compared to the 'millions' of dwarves that must now 'obviously' live in the three great Dwarfholds of the North....... (I am just wondering where these missing Dwarves were in the last few centuries? apart from obviously staying in their caves and breeding).....
There are now millions of dwarfs in that region???? Anyone know how that is possible? Or did I miss something?
LOL - I hoped that having the words within ' ' would make it clear I was being sceptical, however to retcon the expanding number of Dwarfs and why they might have enough numbers to break from the alliance we have the Thunder Blessing (one of the few things I do like about 3eFR).
HTH
Cheers
Damian |
| Pandora |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 14:44:44
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
There are now millions of dwarfs in that region???? Anyone know how that is possible? Or did I miss something?
I think that was just a sarcastic remark as to the number of dwarves, who cant really "throw away" help for themselves due to their own "limited number of dwarves". I could be wrong though and the dwarves have simply decided to "dig out" some more dwarves from the earth or some secret exodus has arrived there from the outer planes after the realms of the dwarven deities got merged into those of human gods. 
Just a thought:
The designers seem to have been treated to a lot of "Nike commercials" with the "Just do it" slogan. Thinking about logical consequences or how people would react hasnt surfaced so far I think. This gives the impression of a "rushed job". |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 14:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Sigh, how can we retcon this entire shambles of an article and make it worth something? There are two distasteful points that make me shudder.
Dwarves leaving the Luruar Alliance:
Are dwarves in 4E completely different to every other edition?
Have they gone from being stubborn yet loyal folk who never give up despite the odds against them surviving. The 'Stout Folk' who never abandon family, clan, allies and friends no matter what the cost to themselves. A race who's word means something, who believe in tradition, hearth and home. A race who remember every insult and every kind act shown, who dutifully and loyally stand by those who aid them no matter what the cost to themselves?
Well according to the article they obviously have changed.
"The dwarves of Adbar, Mithral Hall, and Felbarr parted ways with the others, unwilling to compromise their own defences by shoring up the smaller settlements in the area"
Well that’s just grand, Silverymoon et al ensure that Mithral Hall is retaken and protected allowing it to grow to prosperity and then 100 years or so later, Mithral Hall turns its back on the communities that helped it because they are small....... I guess 63,000 people in Silverymoon and Everlund (with no figure for Sundabar, but shall we add another 20K?) are 'small numbers' compared to the 'millions' of dwarves that must now 'obviously' live in the three great Dwarfholds of the North....... (I am just wondering where these missing Dwarves were in the last few centuries? apart from obviously staying in their caves and breeding).....
Just my thoughts
Damian
There are now millions of dwarfs in that region???? Anyone know how that is possible? Or did I miss something? |
| arry |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 11:11:55
WotC haven't betrayed you, they have just had a 'Brand Value Maximisation Event'.  |
| StarBog |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 23:44:09
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
I don't know if anyone else has caught onto this or not, but from reading the excerpt, and from other excerpts, it seems to me that WOTC have decided, for whatever reason, to "generise" the Realms...
Oh trust me, you are not the only one to have come up with that hypothesis.
Oh well.
I just hope Blizzard don't do a double act with WOTC and screw up the lore of Warcraft in a similar fashion with the next expansion.
Its bad enough that a setting that I've played and reffed in almost exclusively for a decade is being...stuffed up like this. But another betrayal like this would be hard to take.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 17:16:06
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
I don't know if anyone else has caught onto this or not, but from reading the excerpt, and from other excerpts, it seems to me that WOTC have decided, for whatever reason, to "generise" the Realms...
Oh trust me, you are not the only one to have come up with that hypothesis. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 13:13:58
I don't know if anyone else has caught onto this or not, but from reading the excerpt, and from other excerpts, it seems to me that WOTC have decided, for whatever reason, to "generise" the Realms, turning it from a unique setting into a much more generic "points of light/NPCs are merely there to act as quest givers to the PC" model akin to say, Greyhawk. The plot developments that WoTC have unveiled (such as for example, the Dwarfs splitting away from Silverymoon) can only be rationalised, to anyone at least vaguely familiar with the previous Lore of the Realms, by the OOC and IC inhabitants of the Realms (good, evil, male,female and Elminster) taking leave of their senses.
"Why?" would be the obvious question to ask.
To which my answer would be: "They obviously want to turn it into an MMO".
|
| Fire Wraith |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 11:06:30
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
Why would an organisation such as the Harpers so suddenly disband at the very instant the need GREW for their talents?  Ridiculous!
I could probably buy Ed's explanation, were it not for the fact that I'm strongly disinclined by now to trust the motives of the designers at WotC. It feels more than anything, even with the explanation, to be an attempt to generate a storyline rationalization for cutting down the square peg to fit in the round hole (i.e., removing the Harpers as an NPC group that could even possibly overshadow the players in a 4E Realms game, in any conceivable way, no matter how ridiculous). |
| Amarel Derakanor |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 07:12:24
Well, just for the record, I was *heavily* sarcastic in my previous post.
And it would seem that I got some of you with that sneaky last line of mine!
And I almost forgot... Crazedventurers, I completly agree with your points. Why would an organisation such as the Harpers so suddenly disband at the very instant the need GREW for their talents? Ridiculous! |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 00:20:51
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Anyone else notice that they confused Everlund's architecture and
layout with that of Sundabar?
I looke dit up: it actually fits the description by Volo (the spokes of a wheel is taken directly from the Guide to the North).
However I did miss the write up for Sundabar in the Excerpt. Maybe it is in the PLayer guide?
Weird... I could have sworn that Everlund is not like that -- at least not according to the Volo's Guide and the 3E maps in Silver Marches, IIRC? Are you sure about it? |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 00:09:38
Sigh, how can we retcon this entire shambles of an article and make it worth something? There are two distasteful points that make me shudder.
Dwarves leaving the Luruar Alliance:
Are dwarves in 4E completely different to every other edition?
Have they gone from being stubborn yet loyal folk who never give up despite the odds against them surviving. The 'Stout Folk' who never abandon family, clan, allies and friends no matter what the cost to themselves. A race who's word means something, who believe in tradition, hearth and home. A race who remember every insult and every kind act shown, who dutifully and loyally stand by those who aid them no matter what the cost to themselves?
Well according to the article they obviously have changed.
"The dwarves of Adbar, Mithral Hall, and Felbarr parted ways with the others, unwilling to compromise their own defences by shoring up the smaller settlements in the area"
Well that’s just grand, Silverymoon et al ensure that Mithral Hall is retaken and protected allowing it to grow to prosperity and then 100 years or so later, Mithral Hall turns its back on the communities that helped it because they are small....... I guess 63,000 people in Silverymoon and Everlund (with no figure for Sundabar, but shall we add another 20K?) are 'small numbers' compared to the 'millions' of dwarves that must now 'obviously' live in the three great Dwarfholds of the North....... (I am just wondering where these missing Dwarves were in the last few centuries? apart from obviously staying in their caves and breeding).
The Disbandment of the Harpers:
I don't think I can find words to coherently describe how thoroughly let down I feel by this. Shall we discuss what being a Harper means and what the organisation is about? (Have the 4E FR design team read the Code of the Harpers, or the other books related to Harpers?).
Harpers work to protect people, communities and small kingdoms from harm, giving them a chance to flourish and better themselves therefore allowing folks to live out (as much as possible) a peaceful and fulfilling life without being constantly harassed by evil. Harpers do this not for glory or riches, recognition or rewards, but because they are decent folk who believe wholeheartedly in the cause and are determined to freely give of their own time, money and health so that others can live better lives. Harpers never ever stop being Harpers, unless they feel that they cannot give to the cause totally. They don't give up despite setbacks and personal tragedy (a bit like stubborn dwarves!), they are selfless, caring, thoughtful and determined to 'do the right thing'.
So at a time when Faerûn faced its greatest crisis, both in living memory and accepted knowledge and lore of past history, what did they do? they disbanded..... Hmmmm decent folks who willingly give themselves to the cause to protect all from evil and destructive chaos and tumult etc etc etc just decided to stop doing what they had been doing for centuries and disband...... hmmmmmm. And more to the point they stopped so early on into the Spellplague, (to quote the article "The Faerûn-spanning organization known as the Harpers disbanded nearly a century ago").
So the decision to give up was taken soon into the 'missing years of lost lore', except of course for those who decided (later) to oppose only one group, the Shadovar of Netheril. Harpers never just oppose one group, they oppose all who threaten peace and prosperity in Faerûn. These new lot aren't Harpers, but an organisation with only one Foe and that is NOT the Harper way. These new Harpers are nothing more than an adventuring band or fellowship that are dedicated to a single narrow cause with no thought for the wider issues of Faerûn, they appear more like the Knights of the North to me (to use an obvious example).
This is an extremely poor article regarding continuity of previous FR Lore and motivations of races and groups IMO.
Just my thoughts
Damian
EDIT: To keep my post on topic, the rest is now here
|
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 17:52:57
Personally, what gets me is the whole;
"The cities are considered safe"
"The cities are surrounded by hordes of monsters"
I mean, it's the freaking North, it's NEVER safe in the freaking North.
Next is that they disbanded the Harpers . . . which doesn't make sense from an in-story view and doesn't actually make sense in an out-story view. The Harpers were never supposed to be "uber good guys who save the day", they were the folks who discovered a potential problem, went there and found help there to solve the problem. They were a pretty perfect adventure hook.
Bah, lack of consistency, lack of (IMO) quality.
::shrugs:: Whatever, I'm hoping that within the context of the whole book these things will appeal to me more but I'd put about 50 to 1 odds of that actually happening. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 16:57:59
Tone aside, that post was a lot less divorced from reality from some of the unadulterated fantasy that I've seen tossed around as confident judgements of the Realms. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 14:33:52
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
No sarcasm or jokes included in those statements?
Amarel_Derakanor's post was heavily sarcastic.
Good thing you point that out, since its not always obvious to everyone. I think I have some difficulty recognizing sarcasm in forum posts and after one "bad misunderstanding" on the D&D boards I thought it was best to ask and be sure.  |
| RodOdom |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 14:21:34
Hi hear you, Markustay.
If we fans feel bad about what Wizards has done with the Realms, imagine what Ed is feeling. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 13:10:34
Glad you pointed that out - I didn't notice that last line at the bottom there until I read your post (and obviously, neither did anyone else).
Sorry to Ed and everyone else for getting a bit... vitrolic... yesterday. 
The Harpers were like my last connection to the old Realms, and with them gone, something inside me snapped.
Especially since we've been told for months that the Harpers were 'just fine'. WotC employees shouldn't attempt to answer questions they obviously have no clue about.
I think it was more of the continuous "one hand doesn't know what the other is doing" vibe I get from WotC that had that little vein in my head twitching all day. I'd guess at least 90% of what they have said since last year's Gencon has turned out to be pure BS, and I'm just getting tired of it. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 10:29:20
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
No sarcasm or jokes included in those statements?
Amarel_Derakanor's post was heavily sarcastic. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 09:46:17
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
This new update is truly amazing! I mean, both Alustriel and the Harpers felt waaaaay to powerful, in my humble opinion.
It's like: Why should we try to stop an Ogre stealing away children? The Harpers(being all-powerful heroes) would easily lay waste to his plans!
Or like this: Oh no! The Zhentarim disrupts trade in the Silver Marshes! Let's do something about that! Or... no, wait. Alustriel could handle that, easily.
Frankly, my players and I felt that the whole Realms felt overpowered ...on the Good® side. There simply was nothing for the players to accomplish.
So it's GREAT to see that the Harpers are reduced to being quest-givers, and the Silver Marshes to a threatened realm, as it should be!
By the way, I don't like the new name for the Silver Marshes, though. Luruar. It's way too hard to pronounce!
4TH EDITION ROCKS!
Well the Harpers wouldn't care much if an ogre were stealing baby's. A member might take a personal interest, but the Harpers as an organisation would hardly take notice. And remember that Alustriel is only one person; it would have to be a very formidable plot for her to use her time on it.
As for Luruar. If I remember correctly it was the original name of the realm, but WotC changed it for the 3ed. Campaign Setting. I must admit I didn't care much for the whole thing in the first place.
But still, I am actually happy to see that someone is positively exited by these changes. It makes the whole thing a little less pointless. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 08:27:15
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
This new update is truly amazing! I mean, both Alustriel and the Harpers felt waaaaay to powerful, in my humble opinion.
It's like: Why should we try to stop an Ogre stealing away children? The Harpers(being all-powerful heroes) would easily lay waste to his plans!
Or like this: Oh no! The Zhentarim disrupts trade in the Silver Marshes! Let's do something about that! Or... no, wait. Alustriel could handle that, easily.
The problem is that even though these organizations / individuals are powerful they may have "better things to do". Many times its easier for powerful people to just "nudge some youngsters" into the right direction, because 3rd edition mages can run out of spells unlike 4e ones. The biggest problem with individuals like Elminster and Alustriel and such is that they are probably always more powerful than the PCs and that doesnt sit well with those "I wanna be the best Wizard" kiddies, so they start to whine about it. No DM actually has to use these chosen at all, since none of us signed an agreement with WotC that binds us to not change anything.
Killing off an individual - especially one which is bound to the weave - is doable IMO, but an organization like the Harpers should not have disbanded in such "times of troubles" as the Spellplague years when they were needed much. I mean they should have a better chance of survival than some cannibals in Chult who survived being drowned ... and then still remembered tales from looooong ago about a tree. (Maybe I am misinterpreting the cannibals though and they just have a lifespan of 6 months, so that 20 years would be a looong time for them though, but thats just my sarcastic view on this.)
Amarel:
Just for my understanding:
- You love 4e and
- you hate 4e FR ?
No sarcasm or jokes included in those statements? |
| Amarel Derakanor |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 07:23:36
This new update is truly amazing! I mean, both Alustriel and the Harpers felt waaaaay to powerful, in my humble opinion.
It's like: Why should we try to stop an Ogre stealing away children? The Harpers(being all-powerful heroes) would easily lay waste to his plans!
Or like this: Oh no! The Zhentarim disrupts trade in the Silver Marshes! Let's do something about that! Or... no, wait. Alustriel could handle that, easily.
Frankly, my players and I felt that the whole Realms felt overpowered ...on the Good® side. There simply was nothing for the players to accomplish.
So it's GREAT to see that the Harpers are reduced to being quest-givers, and the Silver Marshes to a threatened realm, as it should be!
By the way, I don't like the new name for the Silver Marshes, though. Luruar. It's way too hard to pronounce!
4TH EDITION ROCKS!
I hate the "new and exciting" Realms... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 02:58:26
Harsh?
Perhaps...
But that excerpt certainly wasn't up to his standards, and I find it hard to believe that his 'contribution' was little more then allowing his name to be put on it.
The reason why I was being harsh is because I expect GREAT things from anything with the man's name on it...
and that was FAR from great.
To be fair, I'm sure the editors hacked-out anything resembling flavor.
sorry. |
| AlorinDawn |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 02:25:09
Gotta love that handy work of WotC, they are butchers exraordinare! Maybe they should consider writing comic books. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 00:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...And the Sellplague, which flows around areas of strong mortal magic, apparently didn't flow around Silverymoon's mythal all that much. 
Y'know, I didn't even notice that when I first read the article! |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 22:27:40
That's it, WOTC  just made it to the top of my FE list ! |
| Fire Wraith |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 21:48:56
Perhaps there is more to this matter than is printed in the excerpt - certainly, I imagine there is a lot of room for more details to be put to the story of what happened to the Harpers (and Moonstars). After all, this is an excerpt on Luruar, not the Harpers.
The notion that the Harpers 'faked their own demise' does seem somewhat more reasonable than the nonsensical (to me) notion that they would simply disband outright. However, regardless of the path taken from point A to point B here, I still find myself struck feeling that these are not the Harpers of old. By that, I mean that they feel to me that they were redesigned to act simply as an organization meant to support PC adventurers, and largely do not act on their own. |
| gomez |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 21:24:29
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Anyone else notice that they confused Everlund's architecture and
layout with that of Sundabar?
I looke dit up: it actually fits the description by Volo (the spokes of a wheel is taken directly from the Guide to the North).
However I did miss the write up for Sundabar in the Excerpt. Maybe it is in the PLayer guide? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 21:05:34
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Umm the Harpers are still around, they disbanded then reformed hence the title in the box called, “Harpers of Luruar”
Yes I’m aware they are not the harpers of old; but, if you want to keep them around then follow Arrys suggestion.
As for the Moonstars, hmm, maybe they seceded again from the harpers or ‘faked’ the disbanding and took the organization off the radar. The Moonstars could find it amusing that a new set of harpers have popped up again and are planning accordingly.
I have found no reference to Twilight Hall in the article.
I think we could learn more once the next Blackstaff novel comes out.
Hehehe. What a devious idea....the tel'Teukiira faking their own death/dissolution and going into hiding.
Nah, that's not the sort of thing Khelben would have ever taught them....
Oh wait--that's almost exactly the sort of thing he kept trying to teach the Harpers the two or three times they had to rebuild the group (look to Code of the Harpers, ye gentles).
So, if nothing else, you have at least my opinion that both the Harpers and the Moonstars would have at least a few folks within their ranks quite content to let folks believe they had died off or become a very small group...and just continue on their secretive, merry ways doing what they need to do... 
Brilliant, Bakra!
Steven
PS: While there are some mentions of Moonstars and Harpers in BLACKSTAFF TOWER, they are not truly linked to the plot nor are there many great details revealed. Just one or two important ones (in my opinion).
|
| Fire Wraith |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 20:22:11
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I hate how they seem to be giving the Chosen of Mystra quiet deaths. At least Khelben went out with a bang. I believe each one that died deserves a whole novel devoted to their glorious end. Not a minor mention here and there.
Agreed. If you're going to kill off major characters, give their story a proper cathartic ending. The longer they've been a major character, the more this is true. As much as I dislike Khelben being killed off, at least Steven Schend was able to do his character justice by giving him a fitting end. On the other hand, though, it needs to make sense, rather than feeling like a deus ex machina command from on high to kill off the character - which has been the case with a few other deaths, of both gods and mortals, of late (in my opinion).
And dear gods, whatever you do, don't just announce the death as a footnote, or worst of all in the prelude text of an adventure. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 20:19:56
Anyone else notice that they confused Everlund's architecture and layout with that of Sundabar? I definitely think that Sundabar was described as a circular walled city with its cobbled streets like "spokes of a wheel"?
I just realized something -- those maps look a lot like satellite photos (such as those you can view in GoogleEarth). In fact, it looks like the author took a few such photos and used Photoshop's 'Stamp'-tool to create "realistic" maps (Markus will probably agree with me here). It is pretty evident if you take a look at forested areas... |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 20:05:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wonder how Ed can look at himself in the mirror these days.
Harsh much?
I agree, that was overly harsh.
We know Ed fought against the Sellplague. And we know that legally speaking, WotC doesn't even have to pay attention to him. I don't see any reason to blame Ed for what WotC has done to his setting.
Actually, everything Ed says, posts or writes is considered *official* FR canon, unless contradicted by any TSR/WoTC publication (it's in his original contract, I think). In that sense, they have to play attention to what he says, although, of course, they always can use their legal right to "retcon" anything he says. But it isn't enough that RB or any other WoTC designer says that "No, that might be what Ed thinks, and this is how it is in real FR canon..." -- it has to be published in an official product. |
|
|
