| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| khorne |
Posted - 01 Jun 2008 : 09:08:00
Well, I bought it and read it, and here's my opinion:
The Good:
1.Q'alyrn Melarn survived. He's my favorite character from the series, and I was glad to see he made it.
2.Lloth didn't get all her way. Read the epilogue and you'll understand.
The Bad. Where to start? There's a lot of it....
1.Eilistraee is dead. As predicted, there's only one drow god left. Wotcs pruning of the divinities continues unabated.
2.Qilue is dead, and to add insult to injury, she didn't merely die, her soul was destroyed. Now there's only five left of the seven sisters, and I'll bet you 50 euros Wotc will find a way to kill the remaining five soon. And speaking of Qilue, she messed up a lot with the Wendonai situation. Did she really think she could mess with a Balor of that age and power and not get fracked?
3.Halisstra. The trilogy is named after her, but if she's supposed to be the main character she's doing a really rotten job. She also did in both Qilue AND Eilistraee because she was tricked by Lloth(for the, what, 6443th time?) She's the most pathetic character I've ever had the misfortune to read about in a Realms novel.
4.The idea that the dark elves were originally brown, not black, seems offensive to me. It's like, ”while we were good we were brown, but when we got cursed and became evil we became black”. I hope the Reverend Jeremiah Wright doesn't hear about that gem...
5.The idea of being inherently evil. They said that now the drow who followed Eilistraee have been transformed back to dark elves, the remainder have no hope of being saved, what with Eilistraee gone and all. They are Lloth's, forever. Sure, if something is extraplanar then I accept that it can be inherently evil, but not if it's of the Prime. That's the same reason I detest the phrase ”the good races” from the Drizzt books. There are elves, humans, dwarves, gnomes and halflings out there far more evil that most orcs and goblinoids could even imagine. And the ”millions of dark elves have the blood of a balor in them so most are irredeemable” is bollocks. That was, what, 20.000 years ago? Surely that taint has been diluted. And take Magadon from the Erevis Cale books. He's a half-devil, for Ao's sake, and he's not evil! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Azalin |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 18:43:49
I think meebe the gun was jumped about there being no redemption for the rest of the Drow but at that time, which deity would take it upon themselves to attempt this?
I'm sure that at some point, that Corellon or another might take up this task but I'm for thinking that this is what caused the prediction of no redemption. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 06:52:42
Scroll ressurrect....
The transformation was not purely genetic, it was a case of being Miyeritari AND/OR following Eilistraee. (Apparently, just being "good" isn't enough...) Here's another idea. She didn't leave behind a "dead power", but instead simply vanished- as in, disappeared. What if she's not dead at all? She was possessing Quilue, which, I believe would have made the being Halisstra killed an avatar, and not the goddess herself. Only Ao can do that, as far as I know. As an example, look at Mystra in th Time of Troubles. When the former Mystra was destroyed, she had put MOST of her essence into Elmisnter, and even though he basically died, it did not destroy the goddess completely- she took a new form and body in Midnight. Eilistraee could have done the same thing.
I've been reading the series- my library FINALLY got them in- and this is what I'm getting from it. I read the last chapter pretty carefully, and I'm not so sure she's dead. When Selvetarm and Kiaransalee died, they both shriveled, turned to dust/ash, or whatever, and even Vearaun faded and blew away, but Eilistraee simply vanished. Not faded, not crumbled- just disappeared. If she was possessing Quilue, then wouldn't it be logical to assume it was an avatar that was killed, instead? As far as I know, only Ao has the power to completely boot a god onto the Material Plane into a mortal body. Even Mystra could not completely contain her essence within one mortal during the Time of Troubles, and she was using Elminster!
Given the fact that she assumed Vaeraun's aspect after she killed him, I'm wondering if she didn't fake her death to hide from Lolth. In fact, she could be hiding within Corellon himself, since he didn't seem too upset by her disappearance, and her domain IS still there. He might have hidden her, or at least known what was going on and played along. I got this idea from one of Vearaun's followers in Storm of the Dead. He had suggested to Karas that the god faked his death to unite all the non-Lolth drow. It could still be true with Eilistraee doing that. Vanishing suggests that she might be "invisible" or hiding in the shadows, and Corellon sort of took her place without much fuss. He never actually said she was dead, either, just "gone".
That said, it's possible she is dead, but since she effectively stripped Lolth of a good portion of her followers- and thus, her power- her disappearance could even be her own version of Lolth's "Silence". What if she comes back stronger, because she redeemed the Myeritar and other drow who were able to? The power Lolth gained from her silence has basically been negated by the loss of so many drow from her influence, so Eilistraee might intend to have them join with the surface elves in their fight against Lolth. That would give her more power in the long run, and Lolth would be completely taken in by her apparent "death!"
Again, this is just a theory, so take it as you will. But it would make sense, if she was taking on some of her brother's traits.... |
| idilippy |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 20:11:39
Yeah, that was the biggest part of that series that made no sense to me. I knew gods were going to die in less than spectacular ways, and I was pretty sure Lloth would be the only one left at the end, but I never understood how Eilistraee's plan made any sense whatsoever. For one, I never understood what this "redemption" thing had to do with anything. I originally thought it meant that all good drow were changed, but at the end we learn that's not the case, whether you are redeemed or not is suddenly a genetic factor, which makes absolutely zero sense. Also, reading over an old WotC thread on the topic I saw the argument that since the soul of a dead drow would've gone to the plane of their patron god anyways, the "redemption" idea makes even less sense. Drow were always free to worship other gods, including Eilistraee and the other Seldarine, and be accepted into Arvandor that way.
Also, I kept picturing drow priestesses or matrons becoming dark elves all throughout the Underdark and wondering why Lloth is suddenly forsaking them. I'm thinking that their chances of survival would become about as high as a normal elf's chance of survival in the middle of a drow city, pretty much zero, but was wondering if that was expanded on at all. |
| skychrome |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 13:15:22
Very good point actually! It is one thing that Q’arlynd changes while being on the surface and being prepared more or less for those results, but I really would not like to be the ex-Drow who suddenly transforms while being in in Menzo or any other city... 
...and not even knowing what happened to him/her. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 11:57:01
Good point. I'm afraid nobody really touched on it. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 10:04:08
Adding to this scroll's unlife, is there any official lore as to what happened in the Underdark when a small percentage of the population suddenly lost their darkvision, shifted skin and hair tone, and lost their innate racial magic/resistance to magic? Because the picture I always got in my head was of all pure-blooded Miyeritari and secret Eilistraee worshipers getting slaughtered by the other drow when they see the changes. I could see this being particularly bad for followers of Lloth who happened to be pure Miyeritari and who likely want nothing to do with the surface or any "redemption"(not that you can be redeemed or not redeemed based on your heritage anyways, it's all about the actions the individual takes), but would immediately be helpless and easy prey to their fellow Lloth followers. I haven't followed much in the way of 4e FR lore but this particular problem has been bugging me lately ever since I finally read Ascendancy of the Last all the way through fairly recently. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 11:31:17
quote:
Originally posted by Strife026
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Scroll necromancy again xD
I'm looking for information about Wendonai's taint.
Wendonai's Taint refers to him breeding with the Ilythiiri elves over several generations. Basically by the time of the Descent, all Ilythiiri elves had a portion of Wendonai's blood in them, making all Ilythiiri elves "corrupted" by being of his line in some way. That is his taint, his bloodline in the elves.
I know, but, what do you think about Wendonai's children or grandchildren would be like. Which Houses have the taint and which don't (so far I only know about 2 that don't: Melarn and Xarann). |
| Strife026 |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 23:18:00
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Scroll necromancy again xD
I'm looking for information about Wendonai's taint.
Wendonai's Taint refers to him breeding with the Ilythiiri elves over several generations. Basically by the time of the Descent, all Ilythiiri elves had a portion of Wendonai's blood in them, making all Ilythiiri elves "corrupted" by being of his line in some way. That is his taint, his bloodline in the elves. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 19:44:32
Scroll necromancy again xD
I'm looking for information about Wendonai's taint. |
| mnb128 |
Posted - 15 Jun 2009 : 20:06:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Does this Mean Drizzt, Jarlaxle and Tosun are now a Dark Elves?
It appears only Drow that had Eilistraee as patron deity, at that time, were transformed-redeemed. Which clearly removes Drizzt and likely the others.
I've watched this thread since it started, but for some reason have never gotten involved. However, after seeing this same question again and again, I'll point to page 287 of Ascendancy of the Last. The question was asked, "Have all of the drow changed?" The response was, "Not all. Only those few without taint. Miyeritari, such as yourselves, and those who follow the dance. By Eilistraee's grace, those too will have transformed."
Prior to their fall, there were two nations of dark elves. They were the Miyeritari and Ilythiiri. The demon Wendonai was sent by Lolth to taint the blood of the Ilythiiri over the span of many generations. To try and make a long story short, when the Ilythiiri became the enemy of the "light" elves there was no discrimination in their retribution. The light elves attacked all dark elves, and when the dark elves were banished to the underdark as drow the Miyeritari were included, although they had been unwittingly drawn into a conflict that was not their own. After the descent, there were very few Miyeritari left having been virtually whiped out by the light elves. They then interbred with the Ilythiiri.
So, at the end of The Lady Penitent trilogy, only pure blood Miyeritari and those that have been redeamed by Eilistraee were converted to dark elves. I think it's safe to assume that Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Tosun, Liriel and the majority of drow we know are not among them. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Jun 2009 : 05:17:18
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Does this Mean Drizzt, Jarlaxle and Tosun are now a Dark Elves?
It appears only Drow that had Eilistraee as patron deity, at that time, were transformed-redeemed. Which clearly removes Drizzt and likely the others. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 03:43:13
Nope. As of yet, They are still drow (and likely to stay that way IMHO). |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 02:13:10
Does this Mean Drizzt, Jarlaxle and Tosun are now a Dark Elves? |
| khorne |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 21:39:20
quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena
I have no idea what direction WOtC is going with the Realms these days as I only bought a few of the 3E books (BoVD being a favorite), but if this is any indication I can safely say that I'm through with the official canon.
Basically they are trying to make the Realms into a MMORPG clone, at least rules-wise. I like world of warcraft, and I also like the realms, for different reasons. What I DON'T like is Wotcs attempt to crossbreed the genres. That can only result in some truly horrifying hybrid. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 04:45:10
Wow! Yasraena. 'Tis good to see both you and that particular font colour once again here at Candlekeep.  |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 04:39:21
I am utterly speechless at finding this out.
   
I haven't read the books yet but plan to just to see how it happens. WotSQ was pretty cool, even with it's flaws, so I want to finish the story the right way.
I have no idea what direction WOtC is going with the Realms these days as I only bought a few of the 3E books (BoVD being a favorite), but if this is any indication I can safely say that I'm through with the official canon.
The Realms without Mystra or Eilistraee is not a place I want to be in. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 00:46:12
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
You can make your own Realms anyway you want. Heck, in my world, I killed off Correlon, so my PCs would switch to Elistraee.
*chukles*
In that case you might want to at least vist the Chosen.
http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/intro.php
or short cut to
http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/join.php if you are interested. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 23:49:08
You can make your own Realms anyway you want. Heck, in my world, I killed off Correlon, so my PCs would switch to Elistraee. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 28 Sep 2008 : 22:53:35
I'm OK with that too. As far as I'm concerned, they should have killed off *all* the gods and major NPCs other than Drizzt* (and maybe Elminster), and made the Realms monotheistic under Ao, who reveals his true name to be Wizbro. 
* - because you *can't* kill Drizzt; he's your main source of revenue. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Sep 2008 : 00:54:13
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I agree but, unfortunately, it's not mine, or your world.
Yes it is. The "official" Realms isn't ours, but I'm OK with that. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 19:20:07
quote:
I perfectly understood that, but it took away from the snake eyes Elistraee rolled when she was on the edge of defeat. It was Elistraee's victory and the author took that away. Of course it was also Cavatina's victory because the rolled dice represented actions that was above and beyond the any of the gods' plans.
Those snake eyes would have represented free will, had we not found out later that they were Lolths doing.
quote:
That doesn't fit my concept of how the gods in Faerun work.
I agree but, unfortunately, it's not mine, or your world. Also, it doesn't mean that there is no free will, only that the Gods will, trumps mortals will. At the end, it is implied that even Elistraee's will was trumped by the will of Correlon, and the rest of the Seldarine.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 18:45:58
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I think one point of the books was to show how the Gods use mortals. Everything the mortals did, they did because a God moved them on the sava board. The wizard piece, Qarlynd, was the only one to exihibit free will. Everything else was the Gods will.
That doesn't fit my concept of how the gods in Faerun work. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 18:30:54
quote:
Originally posted by variant
I perfectly understood that, but it took away from the snake eyes Elistraee rolled when she was on the edge of defeat. It was Elistraee's victory and the author took that away.
Don't blame it entirely on the author. Remember, this is shared world fiction and if Wasbro comes to her and says "It has to end with this.", she has to write it to that ending to the best of her ability. |
| variant |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 18:10:56
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
quote:
I didn't mind Selvetarm getting the axe, and I was extremely disappointed to find out Lolth helped his death along. It took away from the fact that he was miraculously killed in the first place.
I think one point of the books was to show how the Gods use mortals. Everything the mortals did, they did because a God moved them on the sava board. The wizard piece, Qarlynd, was the only one to exihibit free will. Everything else was the Gods will.
I perfectly understood that, but it took away from the snake eyes Elistraee rolled when she was on the edge of defeat. It was Elistraee's victory and the author took that away. Of course it was also Cavatina's victory because the rolled dice represented actions that was above and beyond the any of the gods' plans. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 18:08:25
quote:
I didn't mind Selvetarm getting the axe, and I was extremely disappointed to find out Lolth helped his death along. It took away from the fact that he was miraculously killed in the first place.
I think one point of the books was to show how the Gods use mortals. Everything the mortals did, they did because a God moved them on the sava board. The wizard piece, Qarlynd, was the only one to exihibit free will. Everything else was the Gods will. |
| variant |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 17:40:34
I just finished the third book. What did they do to my Drow?
I didn't mind Selvetarm getting the axe, and I was extremely disappointed to find out Lolth helped his death along. It took away from the fact that he was miraculously killed in the first place.
I didn't mind if the undead god got wiped off the planet.
I personally thought Vhaerun stepped on Mask's toes too much and didn't care too much about his death, but I cringed when Elistraee took on some weird psuedo-gender role.
I was first just dumbfounded, shocked about Elistraee's death. Now I am seriously pissed they killed off Elistraee and warped my Drow. I want nothing to do with 4e Forgotten Realms. This is an absolute travesty. I am rewriting history.
I mean I seriously thought from what was "promised in the storyline" that this was a series that would solidify Elistraee in the Realms and the Underdark a bit more and make her a major player instead of some minor unknown goddess. The story made you root for Elistraee and her faith to win. Her death came by and slapped you in the face.
I also expected Halisstra to be redeemed. She was so much apart of War of the Spider Queen and I really expected this to give her the happy ending she didn't get before. This trilogy simply added on to the tragedy.
Also what was with the damn reactions at the game board? Elistraee acted like it was no big deal.
Also Corellon Larethian was an asshole, you can definitely tell where those two celestial elves that came to pick up Cavatina got their attitude towards the Drow and Elistraee. His attitude made me think he was playing a game behind the scenes and intentionally killed off Elistraee. Maybe he hated Elistraee because she turned her back on him to redeem the Drow? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 15:47:08
I agree that it does seem likely. What I was trying to point out was that there's a difference between something being likely and being a fact. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 23:39:40
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
It gets even worse considering that part of te reason behind an Orc kingdom in 4e is supposedly because someone at WoTc was concerned about how they were promoting "racism" by showing orcs as hopelessly evil.
Do we know this for a fact?
It seemed to be the popular attitude back when the first outlines of 4E were coming out, and ti does sound like the sort of thing a pack of marketing ****s would come up with. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 20:23:14
I've suspected the same thing, ever since the short story of Drizzt and the non evil goblin slave. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 18:26:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
It gets even worse considering that part of te reason behind an Orc kingdom in 4e is supposedly because someone at WoTc was concerned about how they were promoting "racism" by showing orcs as hopelessly evil.
Do we know this for a fact? |
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