| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| khorne |
Posted - 22 Nov 2007 : 21:46:10
As any real Liriel fan knows, she is now a priest of Mystra. The same Mystra that's getting killed off. What will happen to our favourite drow princess?! She had finally achieved a happy ending of a sort, and now this! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 02:08:38
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
The only way I will stomach the death of Mystra is if they give Magic and all of her portfolio back to Selune. After all, Mystra was born when a piece of Selune was shredded away by Shar... Selune/Mystra seem quite the same in temperament/goals. Selune has also taken a backseat for quite a while too.
This will be interesting. Having the moon goddes as the goddess of magic will be a good thing. And this is a little similar with some of our cultures, that portrayed the goddess of moon as the goddess of magic, too.
quote:
Basically, I could survive the Realms without Cyric/Mystra (as for Kelemvor I like him where he is now... took a while to warm up to him but LN is definitely better than LE or NE for a god of death, if you think of it...) Of course, if they want to do away with him and give all his portfolios to Osiris, I'd be fine with that too.
Yeah, I think that I can survive without these two, too. I´m one of those that don´t like too much of the ToT changes, concerning these mortal-that-became-gods.
Chosen of Moradin: a recent post from Rich Baker seems to indicate that my idea.. err... prediction will be implemented in the new Realms...  |
| Zanan |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 10:26:39
Hey, as we all know, deities do not die entirely. Just take your bow to Anubis and the Servant of the Fallen feat and you are fine. Obviously, to gain more character levels (to get that feat), you have to take another class ... and the archivist immediately springs to mind. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 12:44:25
Chosen aren't continuously granted spells and abilities by their god like clerics and other divine casters; rather, they contain a portion of their deity's divine essence. As various novels have demonstrated (particularly the Avatar series and the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy), a deity need not be alive and/or able to grant spells and abilities in order for their Chosens' abilities to function. (EDIT: It's not in any way cannon, but it would also be logical any divine spellcasters who are Chosen to still be able to cast spells, though perhaps they'd be limited to spells below a certain level).
Clerics of Mystra, on the other hand, will be in exactly the same boat as clerics of any other dead god: unable to receive spells unless they become worshippers of another deity, or they take the Servant of the Fallen feat (a feat I expect can be dropped strait into 4E), or another deity specifically starts granting spells to clerics of Mystra (Selune would seem a likely candidate). |
| The Grumpy Celt |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 05:17:20
A better question is "Will Sigil be around in 4.0?"
Back to the subject at hand, where does the lack of a magic goddess leave clerics of mystra and chosen? |
| BARDOBARBAROS |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 21:11:48
quote:
Originally posted by Veldrin _Laftria
I think a bit that way too, because the DM is always right! And the DM work for his fun and his player's fun...
i agree too with this opinion |
| Veldrin Laervain |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 02:36:40
I think a bit that way too, because the DM is always right! And the DM work for his fun and his player's fun... |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 00:21:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ed's perspective on the various planar frameworks is one I've often loved. For example, he prefers to use both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said -
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
I love this description, too.
To me, the Great Tree and the Great Wheel are one and the same. Only the perception of the mortal involved (or his belief) that molds what he is seeing, when the matter concerns the planes of existence. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 22:52:10
Ed's perspective on the various planar frameworks is one I've often loved. For example, he prefers to use both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said -
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
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| Zanan |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 17:25:39
Well, for those having problems with old and new cosmologies, doubles here and there in the settings, why not take the easy option? The Abyss and the Nine Hells (and whatever planes are described in both the core and the FR settings) are just tools to be used, as is the Manual of the Planes. They tell you what goes on there and how planar stuff is treated ruleswise.
Then take your preferred setting - check how cosmology is described in there and just take the Abyss as such (or the Nine Hells), not linked to anything, and attach it at the right spot in your setting. And it does not matter one bit if there are similar names or creatures and demon lords in various settings. You simply use your setting and your Abyss. And if you stumble accross a Lolth in the Abyss, you will know that this is fine for Greyhawk, but not for you - any longer. For Lolth wrenched her layer out of the Abyss and created her own plane within FR cosmology. Which in essence simply means that there is either a great hole in the FR Abyss at layer 66, or a barren infinite place with no ruler.
Yes, it can be that simple. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 23:19:01
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, Sigil did get mentioned once (or more than once) in 3E FR. It's still around.
Plus, we got another reference about Sigil too in Grand History on pg. 148. Neato! 
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Also, to the other posters, that Sigil reference isn't in the Player's Guide, it's in F&P in one of the locations in the back of the book, there's a room that has a portal to/from Sigil.
The portal Kuje references is from Sigil to Toril. 'Tis mentioned in the "Abbey of the Sword" reference in F&P on pg. 161 P3-Magic Portal -- one-way from Sigil to Toril.
Also, considering that the Sigil of the Great Wheel in 3e is the same Sigil in the FR's Great Tree cosmology... I would think any of the 2e portals that were in existence and leading from either Toril or Sigil to Sigil or Toril have the possibility of still being active in 3e provided nothing has resulted in their closure.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 23:17:13
In 3e, Sigil does still exist as the City of Doors, but it now occupies a completely separate planar environment all its own inside the Great Wheel of the 3e D&D core cosmology -- as confirmed by Rich Baker. What is special about this individual plane inside the Great Wheel [and atop the Spire] is that the independent nature of the plane in which Sigil rests allows this Sigil to be the only Sigil in the entire multiverse -- thus, the Sigil of the Great Wheel is also the Sigil of the Great Tree for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting.
Veldrin, Akeri, and Gryphon... if you're all still confused, I suggest you take a look at SECTION D in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct [see the link in my sig] for a more detailed analysis of the planar structure of 3e and the changes that occured between 2e and 3e.
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| Veldrin Laervain |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 21:32:53
i'm realy lost too. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:52:20
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
However, they could have taken place on the Wheel's Outlands even though FR's planes are different. :) And yes, Rich has also confirmed, more then once, that Sigil exists.
And even better, there is only one Sigil, unlike all that nonsense with multiple astrals and other planes. Sigil is unique, which, me being a fanatic Planescape: Torment fan, I really appreciate.
As do I. :)
Also, to the other posters, that Sigil reference isn't in the Player's Guide, it's in F&P in one of the locations in the back of the book, there's a room that has a portal to/from Sigil. |
| khorne |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:48:39
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
I'll have to check the PGtF tonight, I don't remember that at all .
Some of the book also takes place elsewhere in the Outlands (including one of that plane's gate cities). Even if the Outlands also still exist somewhere in 3E FR cosmology, during their journey in the Outlands the adventurers (accidentally, IIRC) stray into the domain of Ilsensine... but of course, in 3E FR Ilsensine's domain is in the Caverns of Deep Thought.
However, they could have taken place on the Wheel's Outlands even though FR's planes are different. :) And yes, Rich has also confirmed, more then once, that Sigil exists.
And even better, there is only one Sigil, unlike all that nonsense with multiple astrals and other planes. Sigil is unique, which, me being a fanatic Planescape: Torment fan, I really appreciate. |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:01:40
You're not the only one... |
| Akeri Rualuavain |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 19:58:09
 Now i'm really mixt-up ! |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 17:52:36
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
I'll have to check the PGtF tonight, I don't remember that at all .
Some of the book also takes place elsewhere in the Outlands (including one of that plane's gate cities). Even if the Outlands also still exist somewhere in 3E FR cosmology, during their journey in the Outlands the adventurers (accidentally, IIRC) stray into the domain of Ilsensine... but of course, in 3E FR Ilsensine's domain is in the Caverns of Deep Thought.
However, they could have taken place on the Wheel's Outlands even though FR's planes are different. :) And yes, Rich has also confirmed, more then once, that Sigil exists. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 16:25:30
I'll have to check the PGtF tonight, I don't remember that at all .
Some of the book also takes place elsewhere in the Outlands (including one of that plane's gate cities). Even if the Outlands also still exist somewhere in 3E FR cosmology, during their journey in the Outlands the adventurers (accidentally, IIRC) stray into the domain of Ilsensine... but of course, in 3E FR Ilsensine's domain is in the Caverns of Deep Thought.
EDIT: not sure why I said Caverns of Deep Thought, I of course meant the Deep Caverns  . |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 15:49:26
Yes, Sigil did get mentioned once (or more than once) in 3E FR. It's still around. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 15:27:57
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Don't forget that in the 3rd Edition Realms, Finder's Bane never actually happened, since the city of Sigil (which is rather crucial to events in the book) doesn't exist  .
Unless I am mistaken, the PGtF gives a mention of that place. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 15:09:21
Don't forget that in the 3rd Edition Realms, Finder's Bane never actually happened, since the city of Sigil (which is rather crucial to events in the book) doesn't exist . |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 14:43:45
Yes, I remember a priestess of Finder named Copperbloom. Of course, that's still just two clerics of one god. |
| Akeri Rualuavain |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 12:05:18
:(, sorry, an other story I did not read... Difficult to keep track. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 04:55:57
quote:
Originally posted by Akeri Rualuavain
Dragonbaith's wife is a priestess of Tymora, the lady luck or some Deity like that if my memory is good... At least in the third novel, because When Champion tell his story he clearly say that this was the reason why he had left his village... Because of the "duality" between his opinion of life and her's.
He remarried, after the Finder's Stone trilogy, if I remember correctly. |
| Akeri Rualuavain |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 03:55:43
Dragonbaith's wife is a priestess of Tymora, the lady luck or some Deity like that if my memory is good... At least in the third novel, because When Champion tell his story he clearly say that this was the reason why he had left his village... Because of the "duality" between his opinion of life and her's. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 03:16:26
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
The thing with the FInder chap in said novel was pretty clear as well, as he was, at the time, the only priest of the god on all Toril. So he had quite a bit of Finder's attention, you'd guess.
I'm wanting to say there was one other -- a saurial. I'm wanting to say her name was Copperbloom, and that she was Dragonbait's wife... But it's been a while since I read those books, and I've not replaced them yet. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 23:23:35
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think as long as "special stuff" like that doesn't happen too often it's fine. In the case of Liriel, I thought she was able to do "special stuff" too often to be believable (and remember, it was never stated for a fact that Liriel was a Chosen of Lolth, that was just the speculation of other characters).
... indeed and it's the same with Drizzt and his supposed status as a Chosen of Lolth too. In Liriel's case, at the beginning of her second novel, Tangled Webs, she turns an undead which, at the time, she was not able to do. (She was a straight Wiz back then, according to the Heroes' Lorebook. We - i.e. Elaine Cunningham and a handful of WizBoarders - converted her to 3E and included the cleric levels only after TW, because of her early studies and the events of TW.)
The thing with the FInder chap in said novel was pretty clear as well, as he was, at the time, the only priest of the god on all Toril. So he had quite a bit of Finder's attention, you'd guess. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 21:59:35
I think as long as "special stuff" like that doesn't happen too often it's fine. In the case of Liriel, I thought she was able to do "special stuff" too often to be believable (and remember, it was never stated for a fact that Liriel was a Chosen of Lolth, that was just the speculation of other characters). |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 18:27:38
It is mentioned in either Finder's Bane or Tymora's Luck, that Joel (A cleric of Finder Wyvernspur) could cast more powerful spells then the ones he could case as a low level cleric... if Finder's attention is directly on him at the time the call went out. Or that is how I remember it.
So it would be possible for you to cast a major spell, but you would need the deity's direct attention. I can see it as a roll of some kind (Spellcasting in 3.5 ed) with modifiers like is the calling involving promoting the cause of the god or is it made to save the lives of worshipers of the god. Or penalties like just being asked to boost the ego of cleric.
It would also be a high Dc to make that role as well.
Just some thoughts. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 17:34:54
quote:
Originally posted by nb_nmare
It's been established on more than one occasion that, in the Forgotten Realms at least, gods sometimes perform miracles and grant abilities that would normally be beyond the powers of the worshipper(s) present. Another example is in Shadowstorm, where Lathander cures an entire village of disease.
Maybe I have to re-read that sequence, but given that Paul tends to stick to the rules I rather viewed that as something perceived by the Lathandrian chap, i.e. a perceived blessing of Lathander on(, rather than an actual curing of) that village. Then again, that scene reminded me so much of Legolas' words in LotR about the blood-red sun rising and the bloodshed that goes along with that ... to make me miss the finer details here. |
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