| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 28 Feb 2007 : 21:01:56
Well met
This is a Book Club thread for Depths of Madness(Book 1 of The Dungeons series), by Erik Scott de Bie. Please discuss chapters 14 - 19 ("The Splitting") herein: |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 18:09:11
Ha ha! No worries.
I suppose I was merely harping on you in order to laud my editor's abilities, which is quite deserved.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 16:44:05
Ah. I apologise for the confusion.
Thanks Erik. 
*reminder to self... avoid online discussions when experiencing a two day period of insomnia* 
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 16:34:37
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Heh. For the recond, I was just referring to the bit about her intially wanting you to take the abeil out of Depths. 
I'm assuming that when she asked you about the abeil reference, she was eventually won over with your "Cuz it's weird!" response.
She didn't initially advise me to take them out--she just wondered what I was thinking in putting them in. One of the best things about the best of editors is that they talk with the writer about their intentions and give feedback, rather than flat-out recommending the deletion of a scene or (in this case) a species. Which my editor at WotC happens to be quite adept at doing.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 16:30:31
Heh. For the record, I was just referring to the bit about her intially wanting you to take the abeil out of Depths.
I'm assuming that when she asked you about the abeil reference, she was eventually won over with your "Cuz it's weird!" response.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 16:09:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Erik didn't listen to his editor when discussing the abeil in Depths...
Hey, she didn't say *no.*
For the record, my editor was very supportive and helpful, and I wouldn't want anything to imply that she was anything else.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 15:58:42
Hangman Golems are detailed in MM3. And the Abeil are indeed referenced in MM2.
-- The Sage, who is glad Erik didn't listen to his editor when discussing the abeil in Depths...
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 15:38:37
Well, re: the city, can't please everyone, I suppose. You are indeed correct--a combination of Dali and Carrol. 
The hangman golem is an official D&D creature, if not Realms-specific, in either Monstrous Manual 2 or 3 (can't remember off the top of my head). Abeil, I believe, are noted in MM2.
Cheers |
| Kyrene |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 08:35:14
Loved and hated the city -- loved it because it was so Salvador Dali, hated it because it was so Alice in Wonderland. Not being familiar with abeil before, but some kind of insectlike humanoids did make sense. Taslin's death unfortunately was too well foreshadowed by That Time of the Tenday and the cover itself. When the hangman golem -- is that a real Realms creature by the way? -- struck I initially though it was a roper or something similar. I even chuckled to the wife about your use of some iconic monsters. Not that the golem was a bad substitute, I just let myself in for a fall there. With my bad memory however, I won't say anything more here, lest I SPOIL, thus onward to the next section... |
| Dhomal |
Posted - 18 Apr 2007 : 21:40:47
Hello-
Just a quick note to say that I have reached this part - and actually have moved on a bit since. :)
As for the musings of Where the city is - certainly - at this point - there is reason to guess Anauroch - which would certainly make some historical sense! :)
Dhomal |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Apr 2007 : 05:38:48
Aye.
I also caught the 'Lord' reference Slip made -- though I already had a few ideas as to why this was so given some of Twilight's earlier probing into the halfing's background.
Of all the ideas I had, only one was later proven to be accurate, for the most part. Erik loves to leave a little something for us all to ponder!
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 06 Apr 2007 : 05:35:18
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You know, without going too much into personal space here, I have to say that Twilight is definately someone that has been deeply hurt in relationships and not only believes that if someone seems too good to be true, they probably are, but she actively tries to force those that are "too good" to fall short, so she can push them out. Unfortunately seen that one first hand, so this aspect of Twilight definately rings true, and makes the character both more easily identifiable and sad for the truth of it all.
He shoots -- he scores! Dead on.
I wonder if she'll grow beyond that, and learn to trust people.
quote:
Yes, the light headed, swirly, clausterphobic madness is definately showing through, and Twilight is definately seeming to be a few glyphs short of a spell, if you know what I mean.
Oh yes.
quote:
Love the city "planning" and the appearance of the abeils (I've been trying to figure out some way to use them since I first read about them).
I thought they were neat as well, but yeah, couldn't find the right adventure. So I put them in this novel.
A large part of it was needing a creature of the appropriate climate/habitat.
quote:
I was also saddened by Taslin's death, and actually kind of surprised that the scene on the cover was what it was. I'm so used to artwork being hyperbole or symbolic of the storyline, seeing something that really happens, and something important, threw me for a loop.
Yeah -- it's a neat sort of cover. Both true to the book, in that it's a scene that actually, really, positively happens, in exactly that way, and deceptive, since it makes you think Taslin is the main character, or at least a main character (and she dies halfway through).
quote:
I'm wondering if mayhap Liet might have some hidden talent with the Invisible Art? I mean, the Dalesmen do have Jamdaathan bloodlines running around . . . maybe he's a wilder? Or maybe I'm completely off base and its something a lot deeper and mysterious than this. But I have enjoyed his development.
Anything is possible. I think you'll appreciate the remainder of Liet's adventures. 
quote:
Did Slip really see him when she entered the portal in Dambrath?
Mmm . . .
quote:
And did anyone else notice that Slip, a favored soul ostensibly of Yondalla mentioned her "lord" at one point in time . . . just wondering.
I wonder if that was a typo -- or whether it was purposeful.
Cheers |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 06 Apr 2007 : 04:55:36
You know, without going too much into personal space here, I have to say that Twilight is definately someone that has been deeply hurt in relationships and not only believes that if someone seems too good to be true, they probably are, but she actively tries to force those that are "too good" to fall short, so she can push them out. Unfortunately seen that one first hand, so this aspect of Twilight definately rings true, and makes the character both more easily identifiable and sad for the truth of it all.
Yes, the light headed, swirly, clausterphobic madness is definately showing through, and Twilight is definately seeming to be a few glyphs short of a spell, if you know what I mean. Love the city "planning" and the appearance of the abeils (I've been trying to figure out some way to use them since I first read about them).
I was also saddened by Taslin's death, and actually kind of surprised that the scene on the cover was what it was. I'm so used to artwork being hyperbole or symbolic of the storyline, seeing something that really happens, and something important, threw me for a loop.
I'm wondering if mayhap Liet might have some hidden talent with the Invisible Art? I mean, the Dalesmen do have Jamdaathan bloodlines running around . . . maybe he's a wilder? Or maybe I'm completely off base and its something a lot deeper and mysterious than this. But I have enjoyed his development.
A few things to ponder . . .
Did Slip really see him when she entered the portal in Dambrath?
And did anyone else notice that Slip, a favored soul ostensibly of Yondalla mentioned her "lord" at one point in time . . . just wondering. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 15:34:45
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Heh, do you realized you just cracked a joke? Not enough space (claustrophobia)?
D'oh! Must have slipped out when I wasn't thinking.
Ahum-ahem -- back to my usual, deathly-serious self.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Hmm, I wonder if Asson would have any particular condition?
[quote]Originally posted by The Sage
Though, I did note very early on that Asson seemed to "suffer in silence" a great deal -- particularly with regard to his own problems.
...
I think, in part, he gave entirely too much of himself to others, often sacrificing his own well-being in return. His death, to a degree, can be interpreted as such.
I think you have the right of it.
Cheers |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 03:19:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's difficult to judge whether Asson suffered from any particular condition [aside from his already-existing problems], because Taslin often took to defending and acting for him. Though, I did note very early on that Asson seemed to "suffer in silence" a great deal -- particularly with regard to his own problems. I would normally assume that such an individual would become very bitter and critical of the world and people around his person, though Asson often seemed kind, courteous, and supportive just when the others in the group [who he felt] needed it.
Well, some people simply are just quiet by nature.
quote:
I think, in part, he gave entirely too much of himself to others, often sacrificing his own well-being in return. His death, to a degree, can be interpreted as such.
I agree (I rather liked him for those qualities). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 00:51:57
It's difficult to judge whether Asson suffered from any particular condition [aside from his already-existing problems], because Taslin often took to defending and acting for him. Though, I did note very early on that Asson seemed to "suffer in silence" a great deal -- particularly with regard to his own problems. I would normally assume that such an individual would become very bitter and critical of the world and people around his person, though Asson often seemed kind, courteous, and supportive just when the others in the group [who he felt] needed it.
I think, in part, he gave entirely too much of himself to others, often sacrificing his own well-being in return. His death, to a degree, can be interpreted as such.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 00:23:43
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If I'd had more time, I would have assigned a kind of claustrophobia to one of the characters -- likely Taslin, who's such a free spirit (you know, elf, dancing under the sun, that sort of thing), but I didn't really have the space.
Heh, do you realized you just cracked a joke? Not enough space (claustrophobia)?
quote:
So I settled for:
"paranoia" for Twilight with a touch of OCD (that amulet, you know)
"fear of socialization" for Gargan
"inferiority complex" for Davoren
"emotional repressed" for Liet
"timidity/easily-cowed/self-effacing/clingy" for Slip (e.g. when Davoren tells her how it gots to be, or how she throws herself at Twilight for no real reason at the beginning, then depends on that bond with Gargan)
Hmm, I wonder if Asson would have any particular condition? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 17:16:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Right.
I'll have the Lady K prepare some placards for us to carry around the city. Each will bear the words "Buy Depths of Madness... It's the only way we'll hear more at Fox-at-Twilight. Erik says so."
Narnra's walking now, so she can carry one as well!
Ha ha ha!
Ok, advertising on the youngin might be going a little far.
Recommending the book to all your fantasy-reading friends . . . well . . .
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 16:08:28
Right.
I'll have the Lady K prepare some placards for us to carry around the city. Each will bear the words "Buy Depths of Madness... It's the only way we'll hear more at Fox-at-Twilight. Erik says so."
Narnra's walking now, so she can carry one as well!
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 15:31:50
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye.
You've definitely set up Twilight as a character for further potential exploration later. And that's one aspect of her character that I'm thankful for.
...
As it is... I'm more than happy to speculate and tinker with possible plot-themes and resolutions regarding her future exploits.
Well excellent -- that's something I look for in characters as well.
quote:
Though, I'm especially keen on the notion that it also means we may yet have the opportunity to learn more should you decide to feature Twilight in some of your future works.
I'm along for the ride!
Awesome! There is indeed a lot to be said about her, and I'll work hard to make it worth the cost of admission, believe me.
I'll give the standard response on that point: I really WANT to write more about Twilight, but whether I do or not is Wizards' decision, and whether they want more Twilight depends, I imagine, a great deal on how successful this novel proves. The more people who buy/read/review it, the better!
Tell your friends!
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 05:59:52
Aye.
You've definitely set up Twilight as a character for further potential exploration later. And that's one aspect of her character that I'm thankful for. It's always something I look for when new characters are introduced into the Realmslore. For me, it's always, partly, what marks the difference between what will be an interesting character [and by extension, an interesting novel] and what will be a 'great' character [and, again, by extension, a great Realms novel].
As it is... I'm more than happy to speculate and tinker with possible plot-themes and resolutions regarding her future exploits. Though, I'm especially keen on the notion that it also means we may yet have the opportunity to learn more should you decide to feature Twilight in some of your future works.
I'm along for the ride!
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 05:30:26
Righteous -- what an awesome analysis.
I think you're definitely onto something, Sage -- that makes my day, to think I've given us something to ponder so deeply!
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 03:18:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's an interesting speculation...
There's also her past relationship with Erevan. We still don't know exactly what it was, but we know she doesn't like or trust him. If you're emotionally let down by a deity, what chance does a mere mortal have?
Indeed.
It's speculation derived, mostly, from looking at the language used and types of words Twilight [and Erik] uses to describe her feelings toward the other members of the party. And strangely, they almost always seem to occur during or just after Twilight delves into her shadowdancing ability.
One prime example, from pg. 254 [Chap 24]... "And Twilight wouldn't deny having become fond of the halfling--though that was where it ended. No ties, no love."
Being fond of someone, and making ties with that someone that are usually not emotionally based, is relatively easy for most people. And yet, Twilight is firm in her determination NOT to allow such a relationship to develop any further. She's intentionally [or not] keeping Slip at arm's length [though I admit that the distrust Twilight still felt toward the halfling at this point in the tale likely contributed to that distrust a little].
And yet, her relationship with Liet, a relationship she considers may tolerate some level of love [or what, in her limited experience, passes for love], does't happen easily. It develops over nearly the entire first half [and a little into the second] of the novel -- though I get the feeling that Twilight's feelings for Liet aren't entirely [if at all] about any true love she feels for him. Rather, his relative mystery, as a character, and the pressures of the group, are working to 'force' Twilight and Liet together.
Overall, I think that Twilight really hasn't been given much opportunity in her life to form close [and intimate] bonds with others. Which, may, be a result of her treatment by Erevan, and perhaps, as I speculated earlier, her shadowdancing ability. Though, Erik raises an intriguing point about Twilight's shadowdancing ability being influenced by her own need to isolate herself. Maybe she interpretes this ability as a way of escaping the world and the people around her... making it easy for her to maintain her determination to deny close bonds with other.
It's difficult to see which element of Twilight's character has influenced what -- whether her need for isolation is enhanced by her shadowdancing ability, or whether her shadowdancing ability is seen as a benefit by her isolationist seeking frame of mind. Though, I'm intrigued by this development itself, because it makes Twilight an even more fascinating character than I had originally hoped for.
If I haven't said it already... Well done Erik!
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 02:29:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's also her past relationship with Erevan. We still don't know exactly what it was, but we know she doesn't like or trust him.
Why yes, there *is* that. I wonder if DoM gives us insight?
quote:
If you're emotionally let down by a deity, what chance does a mere mortal have?
30+ level and divine patronage. Then -- as a demipower -- maybe.
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 02:22:21
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I speculated with Erik in private discussion that her almost inherent paranoia and need for isolation may, in some way, be a curious psychological effect of her shadowdancing ability... in that, she finds it difficult to make any definite or permanent connections with the world around her.
That's an interesting speculation...
There's also her past relationship with Erevan. We still don't know exactly what it was, but we know she doesn't like or trust him. If you're emotionally let down by a deity, what chance does a mere mortal have? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 01:41:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Paranoia which seems part and parcel of Twilight's tendency to intentionally (and sometimes unintentionally) erect "walls" around herself as a means of isolating her from, perhaps, not only others, but her surroundings as well. She does make it very difficult for anyone to break through and reach her core self.
I speculated with Erik in private discussion that her almost inherent paranoia and need for isolation may, in some way, be a curious psychological effect of her shadowdancing ability... in that, she finds it difficult to make any definite or permanent connections with the world around her.
Right on, indeed!
I rather tend to think that it's the other way around -- that she's drawn to shadowdancing because of the very same need to isolate herself. It's something of a "vicious cycle" sort of situation, where the one magnifies the other and vice versa.
quote:
True! Although at least she doesn't suffer from claustrophobia...if I were stuck down there that's what would have gotten me.
If I'd had more time, I would have assigned a kind of claustrophobia to one of the characters -- likely Taslin, who's such a free spirit (you know, elf, dancing under the sun, that sort of thing), but I didn't really have the space.
So I settled for:
"paranoia" for Twilight with a touch of OCD (that amulet, you know)
"fear of socialization" for Gargan
"inferiority complex" for Davoren
"emotional repressed" for Liet
"timidity/easily-cowed/self-effacing/clingy" for Slip (e.g. when Davoren tells her how it gots to be, or how she throws herself at Twilight for no real reason at the beginning, then depends on that bond with Gargan)
etc., etc.
Cheers |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 00:24:05
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Indeed. Twilight is definitely a woman with neuroses. And the whole journey through the Depths brings some of them to especial light -- particularly her tendency toward paranoia.
Cheers
True! Although at least she doesn't suffer from claustrophobia...if I were stuck down there that's what would have gotten me. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 00:18:35
Paranoia which seems part and parcel of Twilight's tendency to intentionally (and sometimes unintentionally) erect "walls" around herself as a means of isolating her from, perhaps, not only others, but her surroundings as well. She does make it very difficult for anyone to break through and reach her core self.
I speculated with Erik in private discussion that her almost inherent paranoia and need for isolation may, in some way, be a curious psychological effect of her shadowdancing ability... in that, she finds it difficult to make any definite or permanent connections with the world around her.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 00:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And the best thing is -- she's overthinking everything and driving herself nuts . . . unless she already *was* mad.
I think she might well fall into the category of "neurotic", at least, and she definitely could benefit from therapy.
Indeed. Twilight is definitely a woman with neuroses. And the whole journey through the Depths brings some of them to especial light -- particularly her tendency toward paranoia.
Cheers
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Apr 2007 : 00:01:15
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
That's totally intentional -- it's kind of a "Dr. Seuss meets Tim Burton" feel that I was going for.
It worked, to a good effect. Negarath might even be a fun place to visit if it weren't for all the other scary stuff in and around the area.
quote:
And the best thing is -- she's overthinking everything and driving herself nuts . . . unless she already *was* mad.
Cheers
I think she might well fall into the category of "neurotic", at least, and she definitely could benefit from therapy. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Apr 2007 : 17:22:02
Aye. I suspected as much... The entry itself will exist mainly as a reference source on existing Negarath lore until such time as the enclave's status is included in a future Realms accessory.
So, your own extrapolations on Negarath will do.
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