| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 18:52:24
Alright, so I've been thinking about how best to represent the polytheistic cultures of FR (while there may be exceptions this is the general rule) and in this quest to . . . figure out what a culture like that would be like I've stumbled upon an interesting question.
Where do the souls of the dead, who venerate no particular diety but in fact worship many (ie. the average FR being) dieties, go after they die? Do these souls in fact go to Lord Death for judgement and "live" their afterlives under his purview? This works out pretty well with Kelemvor but what about Myrkul? He wasn't a very nice God of Death and I can't imagine him judging any soul in a particularly "nice" fashion.
What are people's thoughts on this?
I'm just making up the part that they go before the Lord of Death for judgement, it might be that they go to the god whom they worshipped the most, even if that's only like 1% more than the next god on the list. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Darius Talynth |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 23:41:36
This a great thread and I have attempted to read through as much as I can. Sorry if I am repeating anyone else's comments.
There are two things that we have to first accept, because your average Faerunian already does:
1) The gods Exist.
2) There are many gods - people worship the "pantheon", or at least pay homage to it.
3) Not everyone would have a patron deity unless they were a specific lay worshipper of a certain deity. Even then they would still worship the pantheon in some form.
This means that an LG person cold worship, or pay homage to Tyr, Chauntea, and Auril all in the same day. He would pray for Tyr to help guide the judgement of a local magistrate, pray to chauntea for a bountiful harvest, and pay to Auril to not send an early frost and ruin that harvest. Good people will pay respects to evil deities because they want to appease an evil god like Talos, or Umberlee and others. Does this make the average joe Evil? Not at all. It is a fact of life in a polytheistic culture where the gods do exist. Pray for the blessings of the good gods and pray and make offerings to appease the evil ones.
As for people who don't follow a specific deity, I believe they go to kelemvor's realm (and myrkul's before that). An elf would go to Arvandor, and a dwarf to Moradin's hall or wherever else they should go based on the lives they lived.
|
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 23:26:11
I would say no to conjugal visits. Once a soul moves on to its diety's home plane, its eternal existance is now primarily about serving its divine master and basking in the rewards for having done so in life. Even souls who could somehow recollect their former life should think of the separation as small potatoes compared to getting to know their god personally... and if it really, really mattered to someone that he or she spend eternity with his spouse, then that individual should do some soul searching and try earnestly changing his/her beliefs so that they end up in the same place. |
| xaviera |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 21:55:29
Ah, necroposts... 
Stumbled across this topic whilst looking for something else - at least give me credit for searching 'afterlife' for subsequent threads 
One question that hasnt been addressed herein is the issue of what happens to married couples who die worshipping different gods. I guess it's fairly obvious from the discussion thus far that they'll go to the planes of their own deities. Now if they slowly forget their lives, there isn't much problem (apart perhaps from the immediate anguish of being separated from one's spouse, though of course that could be seen as a blessing...), but if they don't, they must then remain separated for all eternity. Do souls get conjugal visits once per millenium or something? |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 12:29:50
I just had another thought about the question of gradual memory loss in the Fugue Plane. It could explain why many souls do not realize that they have died. It depends somewhat on how quickly the soul loses memory, and how long they remain in the Fugue Plane if no deity sends a servant to collect their soul...
Let's say the soul loses memory at an atrition rate of about 10% per day. By the end of the tenday wait period for a servant to come to collect the soul, the soul will have no memory of the former life on Toril at all--and then of course they will forget that they have died as well.
Whatever the rate of memory loss, those souls that no deity comes to collect will lose their memory after a time. One would think that a servant of Kelemvor would collect them in due course to take them to the City of Judgment, but at that point there is certainly no hurry! Perhaps they may mill about in the Fugue Plane for fairly lengthy periods of time before they are taken to be judged by Kelemvor. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 15:59:53
For reference sake, an interesting sidebar that touches on this very topic can be found on page 50 of Power of Faerun. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 15:37:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay...the character who dies... does not go to the domain of the deity he venerates, but instead goes to the realm of a deity who has a GREATER claim on his soul, mostly by his actions.
I prefer that too. In light of that, I want to add some summary points and expand more on the thought I've played around with so far about all this. Hope it's not too much of a ramble...
The notion of a particular deity having the strongest claim on a soul, possibly regardless of the deity the individual venerated is essentially consistent with MotP actually, which states, "when characters die, their souls drift toward the Outer Plane that matches their nature most closely." The ensuing discussion in MotP ties the soul's 'nature' very specifically to alignment. And we see in FR that each Outer Plane is governed by a deity or co-ruled by a set of deities.
Now, in the revision to the FR cosmology wrought by 3rd ed., it seems we no longer have souls 'drifting' through successive planes via a formless cloud of the Astral Plane. Rather, it appears they go directly to a Fugue Plane that is set apart from the other planes, from which a deity may call them. (Note: The basic fact that each D&D setting now receives its own distinct comsology, and FR specifically having the new 'World Tree' design, both seem to me to overwrite earlier 2e comsology.)
So while souls apparently do not 'drift' to the plane that most closely matched their nature, they may yet ultimately be drawn to that plane through a different set of mechanics. The deity who calls the soul from the Fugue Plane could certainly still be the deity who administers the plane that matches the soul's nature most closely, as MotP states.
One way to think about the 'nature' of a soul 'most closely matching' an Outer Plane is in terms of the entire sum of the individual. Not just the concrete behaviors would be measured, but also all the person's hopes, dreams, wishes, desires, goals, intentions (both conscious and unconscious), so that the behavior is merely the tip of an iceberg.
Thus, in addition to actions there is also a kind of spiritual 'trendline', if you will, that may be of even greater interest to the deities. At least according to MotP, souls in the afterlife do not appear to be static. There is nothing to suggest that they do not continue to grow and evolve in their immortal form in the Planes. And actually, we are told in FRCS that souls that opt to go with the baatezu to the Abyss and serve a foul master there can gain power. Why should this not be the case for all the Outer Planes as well?
Anyway, because souls can presumably continue to evolve in the afterlife, the general 'quality' of servants a deity may be getting for eternity may not be a trivial matter. A deity is probably not going to expend energy fussing over individual souls on a case by case basis. But the deity will appoint servants tasked with assuring that high quality souls (i.e., 'pure' and 'in harmony' with respect to whatever the faith is about) keep on lining up to enter the deity's plane(s).
In cases where a soul's 'nature' may fall on a margin between two different planes, I would like to think the deities (or their representatives designated to manage such a task), would work out who gets the soul. There may be a bit of dealmaking that goes on there, who knows.
We all know that deities are made more powerful as they attract more active worhsippers. But I would add another mechanical layer of explanation to that:
Each soul that is called by a deity becomes immortal, and the divine energy of that soul becomes added to the plane where he she resides. Although initially the soul goes to the Outer Plane that most closely matched their innermost nature (in its totality), the soul still continues to evolve in service to the deity. And in time, the soul may yet be sent to other planes administered by the deity to serve in new capacities (or conceivably even to an allied deity's plane, with one deity assisting a friendly deity is some way). If so, their divine energy is then added to the plane they're reassigned to. Redeployment of souls as such results in fluctuations to the overall 'wattage' of each plane over time; though presumably such fluctations are very minor.
The more consonant, or harmonious, a soul is with the essential energy of the plane, the more energy they add to that plane. Theoretically, the 'purest' of souls with respect to the nature of the plane, even when the character is a lowly commoner, might add more energy than much higher level character adventurer class who barely meets the criteria to serve in a plane.
In the grand scheme of the Torilian cosmos, the difference in energy between even an epic level character who is perfectly in tune with the nature of a plane, versus a peasant who was accepted to serve on the plane by the skin of his teeth, may appear insignificant. An individual mortal soul is a mere blip to begin with to the gods. However, averaged over millions and millions of lives, these slight differences can really add up. And it those wholesale differences can give a deity an edge in power over rival deities.
So there is, on the one hand, metaphysical energy that derives from mortal worshippers focusing their hearts, minds, spirits, and actions upon a deity while they are alive on Toril. That is most definitely a key basis to a deity's power. However, by the same token, in many ways the immortal souls that are added to the deities' planes in the afterlife prove more valuable to the gods over time. Because in the afterlife souls are immortal, evolve there, and can continue to increase in power; which adds more energy to the plane where the immortal soul serves, and then ultimately to the deity.
It then strongly behooves the clergy of a faith to instruct followers in both behavior and thought that, upon a souls death, sets worshippers up to be called to a plane governed by the deity the priests serve. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 03:01:37
Okay, some good stuff being thrown around here. Also, I just finished the novel Blackstaff which also has a little something to do with my newly modified veiw of FR religion.
During a character's life, he presumably picks a faith and at least pays it lip service. He is supposed to follow the 'tenets' of said faith, and promote his gods portfolio.
However, what we choose for ourselves, and how we see ourselves, is quite different then the reality. So now I'm thinking people really end up where they 'belong', which is not neccessarily conected to who they 'worshipped'. This means if you are a Wizard and consider Mystra your patron, and even occasionally say a little pray in her name when trying a new spell, you would feel you are a very good follower of Mystra. A few nights a week, the character goes down to the local 'festhall' and hires himself a bunch of 'ladies' for the evening. He parties all night, revelling in drinking and debauchery, and then goes home in the morning once again speaking a little prayer to Mystra to help him with his pounding headache. When he dies, he is surprised to find himself in the afterlife of Sharess, who as far as he knows he NEVER worshipped.
Get the picture? You serve the gods by your 'actions', not your words. Gods notice mortals who further their portfolio, and thereby indirectly feed the god/goddess 'worship power'. You go to whom you served, like it or not.
Now someone who was devout in their religion, like most priests, would go where they expect to go, as would a farmer who spent his entire life praying to Chauntee and farming. A merchant who venerates Waukeen, however, but spends his entire life lying to further his mercantile ambitions, could very well find himself over at Cyric's place.
Looking at it this way, it begins to make a little more sense. Without giving too much away, the character who dies in Blackstaff does not go to the domain of the deity he venerates, but instead goes to the realm of a deity who has a GREATER claim on his soul, mostly by his actions. I like that, and I think I can live with it. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 21:52:42
Like I said, also people just often don't use very good judgment. ;)
Actually, Cyric's dogma is mainly about putting Cyric above all else, rather than about how wonderful lies, deception, trickery, and illusion are. It does exhort followers to use 'any means to an end' strategies, but it's not like the dogma says "tell a lie every day," or something like that.
Anyway, the afterlife schema makes more sense of the faith's relentless emphasis on empowering Cyric. Without a fair certainty of being imortally rewarded for eternity for services rendered in mortal life it would be shakier. It's like too little is promised to followers in the short term, in the life on Toril. But viewed on the eternal scale there's a payoff. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 20:43:36
Man, the more we talk about this the less I like the idea of patron gods and churches devoted to a single god. But just to take a slight bit and comment on it;
quote:
Well, maybe not with Cyric specifcally, I suppose. There's no way to really trust a liar.
Yeah, but he's the god of liars, mortals are gonna buy whatever he's sellin. That's one of the problems with how much we know as readers/players/DMs, we know for a fact, without a doubt, that Cyric doesn't care and is lying. Mortals don't know this for a fact though and even if they knew it for a fact Cyric, and his followers, are incredibly good liars. :) |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 17:31:56
I've been thinking about this some more since in another thread we were discussing who in their right mind would find Cyric's church appealing. I.e., given what other gods in FR offer, respectively, what's the appeal? There were some decent arguments for very immediate tangible earthly benefits. But the faith itself really comes across as something that ultimately is only going to appeal to crazed psychopaths (just read the descriptions of his temples in F&P).
Also--what rewards in the afterlife can anyone actually count on from the Prince of Lies?
And yet Cyric has an "immense" following throughout Faerun? Huh?
But after getting cued into the nature of the afterlife in the Forgotten Realms specifically, things like that make more little more sense.
Well, maybe not with Cyric specifcally, I suppose. There's no way to really trust a liar.
But at least where Lawful or Neutral evil gods are concerned, I can see that if most people have genuine faith in unending rewards in an eternal afterlife, the more inclined they would be accept the tenets of faiths that seem to have questionable benefits in the short term in the mortal existence on Toril. If they are truly faithful in a single mortal existence, they have the rest of eternity to enjoy an imortal existence that they at least believe they will be satisfying to them. It may be evil, but it's their "heaven," or "eternal paradise."
Also, the whole 'eternal hell' side of the equation created by the fate of the Faithless and False... that also pushes people into sincere worship, as I mentioned. And in choosing a deity, well, people often don't excercise very good judgment in life. So it isn't that hard to see them most earnestly worshipping the gods that seem, from their myopic perspective, to benefit them most according to their personal needs and circumstances. Rather than from some deeper, inner spiritual convictions. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 16:00:40
Markustay,
First, I agree with you're comments on our frame of reference. The whole question of souls, destination, patrons, etc is such a foreign concept to anything I've really encountered in life (and in all the time I've been playing D&D I just never thought about it until I started really hammering away on NPC motivations {OH I'D GIVE MY RIGHT ARM FOR A GOOD ECONOMIC MODEL IN FR! *g*})
I'm gonna have to work on my thoughts on worshipers and their relation to the gods before typing it out, right now it'd just end up as drivel :)
I'll take a crack at the worship of evil gods though :)
The appeal of a god such as Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, etc is that they promise you that you are important. That you are special. That when they have all the power you'll have a piece of that pie. While Lathander wants you to help every sap on the block Bane wants you to take the world by the throat and make it bow down to you. While the Triad wants you to promote "honor" Cyric wants you to take what you want, from whoever you want and get away with it. And they promised that you were important, that you weren't just another cog in the wheel, YOU ARE THE DAMNED WHEEL! (alright, I dunno what I was thinking, "cog in the wheel". . . that's just awful *g*)
::sigh:: stupid multitasking. . . I have no idea where I was going with this post, but I like it, so posted it shall be *g* |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 15:07:11
Well, it clearly stated that those souls judged worthy to be called to a deity's plane will enjoy rewards for eternity as they serve their deity there as imortals. And if it is known in mortal life that souls in the afterlife are treated to rewards throughout eternity for faithfully serving their deity, then that is certainly a strong incentive to be a true worshipper.
Now in the case of evil religions, this amounts to whatever gives such type of characters their 'jollies'. An evil deity who has been served faithfully will reward his or her worshipper with whatever those types of rewards are pleasing to the follower.
It may well be that from the deity's perspective, the more mortal souls that get converted to imortal and added to their plane increases their power. But from the mortal's point of view that's basically irrelevant. There's still a powerful incentive to worship.
MotP states that souls who have been judged worthy can even pass on to greater mysterious realities unknown even to the deities themselves. So the afterlife is not necessarily even a static existence. I.e., for more adventurous spirits there may be neverending room for growth and exploration, etc.
One would think that on Toril a substantial body of knowledge of the planes--and then the nature of the afterlife--has been acquired from from communications with the divine servants to the high priests of their faiths (perhaps,although rarely, directly from deities themselves), and from the living adventurers who have recorded their planar travels. You would think that priests of every faith are aware that those judged Faithless and False suffer a horrifying eternal fate--a certain hell. And therefore it would make sense that this would be taught to the masses. The question then only becomes which faiths to choose.
But one question about polytheism in FR that I think should not be overlooked, is to what extent worship of inimical deities risks alienating both gods! Let's say an Amnian merchant family lord with powerful interests in wheat production sincerely worships Chauntea, as she is Lord of Grain. He also worships Talona, since attempts to assassinate his rivals must be conducted secretly (lest the Council of Six ruin him for such an act of open hostility between merchant houses). Chauntea and Talona are dire enemies. And when the soul's judgment time comes, both deity's may be end up being put off by this character's mutual worship of the other goddess. The soul may be end up being called by neither.
So while there many people do routinely placate a wide variety of gods, it might also be common knowledge that there may be very real and dire consequences for insincere/superficial worship, and the inherent 'conflicts of interest' in worhshipping certain contellations of deities, that in turn could work to distil 'true' worship down quite a bit. In other words, prayers may routinely be uttered with sincere respect for the deity in question, depending on the needs of a situation. But it is still smartest for people to choose either a single deity, or a collection of deity's that aren't at odds, as the object of truest devotion. Otherwise they risk an eternity in hell. And here it's not a matter of conjecture, in this world of arcane magic and divine spells and miracles, planar travel, and where the gods themselves literally just walked among mortals (and warred!). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 11:17:36
You know, the more I think about the whole thing, the less I like it.
We're just a bunch of Eveready batteries to a bunch of uber-powers?
Also, I think the biggest problem we all have coping with this is that there is no real world model to look at. Even in polytheistic religions, the worshippers of various gods all went to the SAME afterlife. Faerun's pantheon isn't a TRUE pantheon at all, because each god has his own private little 'heaven'. If you don't make it into any god's heaven then you wind up in the Hell that best matches your alignment (also a BIG problem with multiple hells, they way I see it. Seperate levels in a SINGLE hell would work better). By 'hells' I mean any plane with fiends, not just Bator or whatever they're calling it these days.
Then what about Heaven? I mean all the 'Heavens'. If good people go to their gods private paradise, and bad people go to hell, then what purpose do the upper planes serve? No one ends up there? Kind of weird, no? Where's the balance.
I've been re-thinking this whole Wheel vs Tree thing for awhile now. I always thought I preferred the Wheel, but now that I think about it the wheel doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. Don't get me wrong, I love the Planescape setting, but now I'm thinking it's best left on its own and not mixing it with the individual prime settings. Things are funky enough with one set of gods.
The whole model needs a rework from the ground up, because nobody in their right mind would worship an evil god. Even if you got into Bane's private playground I'm sure Sune's would still put it to shame. I mean really, does anyone want to spend eternity listening to Cyric go on about himself? I think I'd prefer to be whipped in Loviatar land.
Just my two cents. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 00:47:29
As to the question of what people might know... Well, for the most learned, since planar travel is possible by the living it might be a lot. The Fugue plane is off limits. But planar travelers can visit the other planes, both fiendish and celestial. What might they learn from such visits and bring back to Toril? One would think that over the millenia, quite a store of knowledge would have acrued. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 22:50:44
I guess my biggest bottom line in all of this is that while I like the idea that the people in Faerun has some idea what happens to their souls, or at least they think they have an idea about it, that they don't know for sure. I don't really like the idea that people would know that they spend X amount of time in this state, then transform into this, and that this plane is accessable to this, and that they remember this, but not that . . . a general idea about the after life is interesting, but a detailed and sure knowledge about exactly what is going to happen is kind of . . . too well defined for my taste.
I like the fact that the few characters that have come back don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the plane they were in, but they have more of a vague notion of what it was like (I got to feeling that Quenthel, for example, had more of a general feeling until she actually SAW the things that she saw before). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 22:20:59
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Never liked the "petitioner forgets all memories" concept, myself. It's stupid. If you are going to bother with a cosmic system in which a person's life force (and consciousness) detaches from their body at death and lives on (and really, this isn't a given--there's no rule saying that a setting has to have an afterlife), then you might as well let the dead person keep all their memories...memories of the beliefs and actions that friggin' got them to the plane they end up in the first place.
Also, ever notice the "tit for tat" nature a lot of these religions wind up having with the "False and Faithless" system? So much for deep, meaningful spiritual experiences. It's more like a relationship with a protection racket. Just saying.
There's a larger cosmological question of the point and purpose of the entire afterlife system. Are mortal souls ultimately nothing more than ergs of divine energy that serve to increase a deity's power, by being added to its plane?
Yes, that is a great question.
quote:
One of the things that characterized the ancient Greeks' view of the gods, is that they saw mortals as utterly subject to the whims of the (very capricious) gods. I see FR's cosmolgy pretty much along the same lines. Near as I can tell, mortals exist for gods' amusment/uses.
To give my opinion on that, I'd have to know more about the reason (if there is one) for the creation of man (and/or other sentient beings) in the FR...and honestly, I can't recall any explanations about that. If humans were created because "the gods felt lonely" or something, then yes, I would have to agree with that last statement. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 20:04:59
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Never liked the "petitioner forgets all memories" concept, myself. It's stupid. If you are going to bother with a cosmic system in which a person's life force (and consciousness) detaches from their body at death and lives on (and really, this isn't a given--there's no rule saying that a setting has to have an afterlife), then you might as well let the dead person keep all their memories...memories of the beliefs and actions that friggin' got them to the plane they end up in the first place.
Also, ever notice the "tit for tat" nature a lot of these religions wind up having with the "False and Faithless" system? So much for deep, meaningful spiritual experiences. It's more like a relationship with a protection racket. Just saying.
There's a larger cosmological question of the point and purpose of the entire afterlife system. Are mortal souls ultimately nothing more than ergs of divine energy that serve to increase a deity's power, by being added to its plane?
One of the things that characterized the ancient Greeks' view of the gods, is that they saw mortals as utterly subject to the whims of the (very capricious) gods. I see FR's cosmolgy pretty much along the same lines. Near as I can tell, mortals exist for gods' amusment/uses. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 18:45:31
Never liked the "petitioner forgets all memories" concept, myself. It's stupid. If you are going to bother with a cosmic system in which a person's life force (and consciousness) detaches from their body at death and lives on (and really, this isn't a given--there's no rule saying that a setting has to have an afterlife), then you might as well let the dead person keep all their memories...memories of the beliefs and actions that friggin' got them to the plane they end up in the first place.
Also, ever notice the "tit for tat" nature a lot of these religions wind up having with the "False and Faithless" system? So much for deep, meaningful spiritual experiences. It's more like a relationship with a protection racket. Just saying. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 15:11:08
One of the biggest difficulties I'm finding in figuring this whole deal out (for myself since we really don't have a good canon model) is the relative "value" of a soul.
In other words, does the lifetime of faith and worship (or placation) mean more to a god than the soul of that worshiper? ie. Over a lifetime a soul puts out X units of worship power for the gods and when that lifetime is up the soul is worth Y units of worship power. What values do X and Y have?
Basically, the way it's working in my head right now is that;
Kyle goes through life, worshiping and placating as wanted/needed. Kyle then dies. Kyle goes to the Fugue Plane. Kyle has worshipped Chauntea and Lathander the most out of all the gods and "qualifies" to be taken by either of them* At this point it's up to the gods to figure out which one will take him (and since it's Chauntea and Lathander they'll probably have a nice civil discussion about it, if it were between Umberlee and Talos it might be a bit less civil *g*)
I hope that makes sense, I'm still a bit stupid from being sick so forgive me if I left out something of my thoughts ;D
*This is a . . . newer thought on this for myself, it runs along the lines of "A soul helps to empower the God who accepts the soul into it's plane but the soul empowers the God only in as much as the soul has faith towards the God. ie. Kyle worshiped Chauntea and Lathander most but also placated Talos, Cyric and a host of other dieties, prayed to Sune, the Triad, etc. but since Kyle spent the bulk of his "worship" on Chauntea and Lathander he is best qualified to go with them. If another diety were to pick him up they would have a harder time picking him up (ie. if a more "qualified" god were to try and pick up the soul at the same time as a "less qualfied" god then the soul would go to the more "qualified" god due to the ease which they can assimilate the soul) |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 14:54:37
Re: working the institution of the House of Death into FR, I probably should have started a separate topic for it. But I see the House of Death as being integral to efforts to restore the dead to life, an issue raised in this thread. For example, if the House of Death staff determines that the deceased is infected with undeath, the corpse must be destroyed. And similarly when House of Death determines that the character was killed with a death effect, they would advise that the soul cannot be returned to life. Also, it raises a similar question to the topic starter about FR's polytheism with respect to death (see below).
I would think the House of Death's secret mission would traditionally have been of greatest interest to Lathanderites, and they'd probably take the lead in the organization as the institution formed over the centuries. In more recent years since Kelemvor became judge of the dead, his clergy would have assumed an equal role at the top of the hierarchy.
But what I really like about this institution, is that (at least as described in Defenders of the Faith) anyone is free to join regardless of race, class, or faith--just as long as they are committed to protecting against the undead and stamping them out wherever they may be found. I would imagine this would sometimes make for some very unusual relationships.
Since it seems likely that in FR the churches of Lathander and Kelemvor would be the administrators of such an institution, would they allow members of inimical faiths to join the House of Death staff? It's another type of polytheism question also related to death. Since it is widely known that most people worship a variety of deities, is the attitude toward polytheism fairly tolerant?
Will the clergy of Lathander and Kelemvor be willing to overlook a follower of... Shar, let's say... among the staff of the House of Death? Remember the House of Death keeps its true mission as investigators and hunters of undead a secret from the general public. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 13:33:15
As to the memory question, here's an interesting FR tidbit:
PGtF notes that the River of Blood connects nearly all of fiendish planes (which constitutes a huge portion of the World Tree) are connected, excluding only the Supreme Throne and Demonweb Pits. A mortal who falls into this river, or swims in it, loses all memory. This seem to be written with planar travel by the living in mind, though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 07:48:53
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I will agree with you that the subject just hasn't been addressed sufficiently in a very long time, so it is hard to say just where exactly canon would fall on the matter at this point. I have given you my most educated guess, but your mileage may vary and as a DM you should definitely go with the model that appeals to you. 
Sorry Gray, I understand where you're coming from, but the concept of just 'forgetting yourself' after you die is just so repulsive to me that it sets off my internal alarms. In Greek mythology, souls who were bad in life were punished, souls who were good were rewarded (and remembered their lives), but the rest just sort of lived in a 'ghetto of the dead', neither good nor bad, and after a time they slowly forgot their mortal existance (and when you look at it in terms of eternity, thats sort of a charitable thing). I like this model better (and seems to be the way it was represented in the novel) because it makes more sense that you would not 'instantly forget' who you are, that goes against every myth, folktale, fantasy and Sci-fi I ever read, it's just so... PESSIMISTIC. Why would ANYONE care where they went after they die, when for all intents and purposes they cease to exist at the moment of death. Sure, your soul lives on, but thats not YOU (according to RAW), you are stuck in some little bubble floating in Astral Space. That sounds more like Sci-fi then fantasy to me, like something out of the matrix.
The whole religion thing just sort of loses its meaning if no matter what we are all going to end up empty vessels.
Also, what if a soul was in hurry on its way back to the prime and grab the wrong memories? 
To address the origianl topic again - I think if you were a dedicated practitioner of a faith, even if you paid lip service to other gods, a representative of your god would swing by and pick you up. Probably the more 'devout' you are, the quicker you get taken. Saints go first class, sinners get bumped to coach. If you never worshipped anybody but believed in the gods, you might want to try pleading your case to one of the reps. If you didn't believe AT ALL (no faith), then you would go before Kelemvor to be judged, to decide if you were 'faithless' or merely 'false'. In the case of false, a rep from your god, almost like a cosmic lawyer, might be present to argue your case for you, promisimg Kel to punish you on their end (which is probably preferrable). All the gods would probably have 'embassies' within kel's courthouse, to determine if you are one of 'theirs'. In cases where you worshipped more then two gods almost equally, then you might have a real court battle between opposing 'attornys'. I just picture an Archon defending a soul, and a Ta'nari prosecuting. |
| Sian |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 05:39:30
i see it as an arm of Lathanders Church, with the recent merging with a similar arm of Kelemvors Chruch (and maybe as a semifar shot Finder Wyvernspur's), making a offshot group of Clerics, Monks, Paladins and others battleing undeath |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 04:43:19
Is "undeadified" a word?
Good points, Gray. I keep forgetting that Kel is still a newbie.  |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 03:26:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Is there anything in the FR literature that states something like this should not be found?
You could totally add this into your Realms if you want to. Nothing in FR lore forbids it. You could make this a civil fraternity of morticians, you could make it a branch of the church of Kelemvor. It could be an order of monks. There are a ton of ways to incorporate this into your campaign.
Kelemvor wasn't always the god of the dead. After all, Kelemvor has only recently acquired this portfolio around 1368 DR. Back when Cyric, and before him Myrkul, were lords of the dead, the undead were not so frowned upon.
City officials or clergy of other faiths might have had an interest in making sure the recently dead were not undeadified, to protect the populace. Such an institution might have been around a lot longer than any similar groups sponsored by the church of Kelemvor. Even if K's peeps have got the dead watch thing well in hand in recent years, traditions are slow to die out. So the House of Death could easily continue on as a parallel institution. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 02:16:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Follow-up question: what about the possible existence of "Houses of Death" in the Forgotten Realms? The Guidebook Defenders of the Faith describes the House of Death on p. 40 as a kind of mortuary located in every city of 1000+ that secretly investigates for undead infestations. It sounds like a wonderful feature to add to a gameworld. Is there anything in the FR literature that states something like this should not be found? Again, I thought this was a good addition to the setting, but I'm beginning to understand better that the generic reference books don't necessarily pertain to every D&D setting.
I don't see a need for such -- Kelemvor's clergy is already pretty anti-undead, and their church is enough of an organization. |
| messiah omega |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 02:07:00
regarding who gets the soul in question: prehaps the truth to who gets the soul of the polytheist is closer to lolth and eliestrees (sp?) sava game, but on a grander scale with all of the gods playing? |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 20:02:46
Follow-up question: what about the possible existence of "Houses of Death" in the Forgotten Realms? The Guidebook Defenders of the Faith describes the House of Death on p. 40 as a kind of mortuary located in every city of 1000+ that secretly investigates for undead infestations. It sounds like a wonderful feature to add to a gameworld. Is there anything in the FR literature that states something like this should not be found? Again, I thought this was a good addition to the setting, but I'm beginning to understand better that the generic reference books don't necessarily pertain to every D&D setting. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 19:45:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The information about souls losing their mortal memories comes from 2e lore--most notably the sourcebook On Hallowed Ground. As far as I know this lore has not been rewritten or contradicted in any 3e material so I presume it is still valid
Sorry, it's not cannon.
You are quoting a Planescape source, and I am referencing a Forgotten Realms novel (Prince of Lies, I believe).
2e, wrong setting, wrong cosmology... sorry, it just doesn't fly.
Well, it WAS canon in 2e, and nothing in 3e overides it. In fact, the 3e MOTP seems to support that the mechanic has been preserved. One of the rules of construction says that 2e lore is preserved unless it is overwritten by a later source, so that is why i believe this lore is still canon.
If you want an example from a novel to support my interpretaion, I believe that there was a petitioner of Finder Wyvernspur in a Realms novel, I think it was Tymora's Luck, who may have had her memory wiped by her death per this mechanic if I recall correctly.
I will agree with you that the subject just hasn't been addressed sufficiently in a very long time, so it is hard to say just where exactly canon would fall on the matter at this point. I have given you my most educated guess, but your mileage may vary and as a DM you should definitely go with the model that appeals to you. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 19:33:39
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
I'm not finding anything in FRCS or PGtF that helps answer the original question. Given FR's polytheism, apparently it's left up to the DM and player work out which deity's servant comes to collect the soul (when a soul is judged worthy as such by a deity). The DM is the final arbiter, of course.
Personally, that's the way I would prefer it. |
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