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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe

402 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  18:52:24  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Alright, so I've been thinking about how best to represent the polytheistic cultures of FR (while there may be exceptions this is the general rule) and in this quest to . . . figure out what a culture like that would be like I've stumbled upon an interesting question.

Where do the souls of the dead, who venerate no particular diety but in fact worship many (ie. the average FR being) dieties, go after they die? Do these souls in fact go to Lord Death for judgement and "live" their afterlives under his purview? This works out pretty well with Kelemvor but what about Myrkul? He wasn't a very nice God of Death and I can't imagine him judging any soul in a particularly "nice" fashion.

What are people's thoughts on this?

I'm just making up the part that they go before the Lord of Death for judgement, it might be that they go to the god whom they worshipped the most, even if that's only like 1% more than the next god on the list.

Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  19:37:36  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Manual of the Planes (p. 89) states that the souls of the faithless go to the Outer Plane that matches their alignment. So for example, a LG character goes to Celestia, a CE character would end up somewhere in the Abyss, etc.
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Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  19:43:25  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Manual of the planes aren't FR as far as i remember ... especially not after the 'massive' change in how planes are sorted in FR

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
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Lawfire
Acolyte

USA
38 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  19:52:26  Show Profile  Visit Lawfire's Homepage Send Lawfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis


I'm just making up the part that they go before the Lord of Death for judgement, it might be that they go to the god whom they worshipped the most, even if that's only like 1% more than the next god on the list.



That would be my interpretation. Throughout their lives they must have called upon, or prayed to one more than any other, like you said even if by a very narrow margin.

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nbnmare
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
205 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  20:28:35  Show Profile  Visit nbnmare's Homepage Send nbnmare a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say that in the revised 3E cosmology, the souls of demi-humans without a particular patron deity would go to the plane appropriate to their (sub)race and alignment. That's Arvandor for good and neutral elves and drow, the Demonweb Pits for evil drow, Dwarfhome for dwarves and good and neutral duergar, the Golden Hills for good and neutral gnomes, the Green Fields for good and neutral halflings, and Hammergrim for evil duergar and gnomes.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  22:02:17  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd agree with nbnmare about the racial pantheons. I imagine that the Seldarine might send an eledrin (or just call to the spirits) to the Fugue Plain, so long as the elf in question respected and worshiped the members of the Seldarine without having a particular patron. I can picture the same for the dwarven, gnomish, etc.

Some racial pantheons might not be quite so easily resolved. I imagine that Grummsh isn't as happy to pick up orcs that venerate him equally with Shargas and Ilnevel, for example. That gets into my next point that I was going to go into regarding other "non patroned" people that aren't Faithless either.

I think that when Myrkul was god of the Dead, for example, a spirt that wasn't Faithless or False was still off limits, but without one particular patron, it might be a while before the soul got picked up from the Fugue Plain. Someone that worshiped dispartiate gods, such as Tempus and Tyr, for example, might just sit in the Fugue Plain for for decades, since neither Tempus nor Tyr could hear them as being "purely" faithful.

This of course allowed for a lot more time for the souls to be stolen by raiding fiends, tempted by devils, and the like, or even to wander off and be devoured by Kezef, for example. In fact, you could argue that this had a great deal to do with Ao's charge that the gods were not performing their duties. Not only were they only claiming "pure" worshipers, but they weren't forcing Myrkul to look after the souls that were neither Faithless nor False.

I'd cite the fact the Avatar books mention that the Fugue Plain was crowded and full before the Time of Troubles as evedince of this.

Now, under Cyric, I'd have a hard time seeing him judge soul that is neither Faithless nor False but doesn't have only one patron fairly either, but I can see him being aware of Ao's watchful eye, and not fully wanting to invoke the ire of the other deities (at least not until the proper time), I can see him keeping them "safe" within the City of the Dead, not tortured, not free to be raided or bargained with, but not passing on the way they should either.

Now, under Kelemvor, I can picutre someone getting a bit of a better deal. For example, lets say a ranger dies and equally venerates Mielikki and Tymora, Kelemvor might assign him to Mielikki's realm only it would be more in line with how he lived his life.

However, here is one that I've only recently been thinking about. Lets assume that someone equally venerates a dozen or so gods. He dies and goes to the Fugue Plain. What if his sould actually calls out to all of his gods equally? Now, lets assume that a soul can be divided infinately, so that if a soul truly venerates multiple gods equally, his soul can actually be "split" and an aspect of his soul goes to each plane of each god that he venerated.

Now, taking this one step further, it has been said that a character with no patron god cannot be raised. Lets assume that this non patroned character can't be raised, not because he has been judged as Faithless or False, but because he soul doesn't exactly match the soul of the deceased that is being called back. Not sure if I'd just go with this interpretation, but at the same time, I'm kind of liking this idea.

Then again, my ideas on faithless and false are something like this:

The faithless are actually those that not just don't have a patron deity, but that cannot connect to anything higher or more spiritual than themselves. The faithless know the gods exists, though they might not respect all aspects of what they are responsible for, but they just can't "feel" anything greater than the here and now, and what they are.

For example, without having a patron, a pirate may say prayers equally to Talos and Umberlee, and his heart races in a driving storm, and he can loose himself in the deep waves or the crashing waves. Another pirate on the same ship never really is in awe of lightning and thunder, and never really ponders what the sea holds within it, nor sees the point in saying a prayer. He doesn't "feel" anything. He knows why the other sailors may their supplicatory prayers, and he knows that they "might" help, but he just doesn't feel it and can't bring himself to do it.

The False I picture as either a subset of those above, i.e. those that don't "feel" it, but they still profess a given god and they still allow others to know them as a follower of a given god, or they are those who fervently beleive that they follow a god while trampling on all of their tenants. A fallen paladin that denies that their god has scorned them while they continue to slaughter innocents that don't "convert," is an example, as is a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra that plots and scemes ways to kill off a village of humans in the name of honoring Corellon.

Anyway, those are some of my random thoughts. While I like some of these questions answered, once we get the basic idea about how the afterlife works, I think its fine to have some "grey" area for people in the setting to wonder about.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  22:54:19  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
This works out pretty well with Kelemvor but what about Myrkul? He wasn't a very nice God of Death and I can't imagine him judging any soul in a particularly "nice" fashion.




It's possible to be mean and evil but still be neutral when it comes to business. At least, I think so.

Also, pretty much everyone in Faerun worships more than one deity--I really dislike the whole "patron deity" concept as it clashes with that aspect of the setting.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Feb 2007 22:56:12
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  23:31:56  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna FathomlinAlso, pretty much everyone in Faerun worships more than one deity--I really dislike the whole "patron deity" concept as it clashes with that aspect of the setting.



As do I and the whole faithless and false is just really idiotic since it's pretty hard to be either. Ed words on the worship of deities in the past few years make those two concepts even more idiotic.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  23:49:13  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sian

Manual of the planes aren't FR as far as i remember ... especially not after the 'massive' change in how planes are sorted in FR



I did not know that! Where is the canon on all this to be found then? i.e., what are the sources?
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  23:56:18  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis

quote:
Originally posted by Sian

Manual of the planes aren't FR as far as i remember ... especially not after the 'massive' change in how planes are sorted in FR



I did not know that! Where is the canon on all this to be found then? i.e., what are the sources?



The FRCS and the Player's Guide to Faerun, mostly.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  03:42:06  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks. Hmm. How do the spells Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection fit into this scheme?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  08:24:12  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna FathomlinAlso, pretty much everyone in Faerun worships more than one deity--I really dislike the whole "patron deity" concept as it clashes with that aspect of the setting.



As do I and the whole faithless and false is just really idiotic since it's pretty hard to be either. Ed words on the worship of deities in the past few years make those two concepts even more idiotic.


Indeed.

Ed's thoughts on the subject make it clear that almost everyone in the Realms has more than one deity that they utter prayers to. It's how I've always ran my campaigns. And it's why I don't bother with the concepts of the Faithless or the False.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  08:25:29  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis

quote:
Originally posted by Sian

Manual of the planes aren't FR as far as i remember ... especially not after the 'massive' change in how planes are sorted in FR



I did not know that! Where is the canon on all this to be found then? i.e., what are the sources?



The FRCS and the Player's Guide to Faerun, mostly.

Also Lemernis, see my discussion about the planar changes made to the Realms cosmology, between 2e and 3e, which is located in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct (see my sig).

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Grandmaster Kane
Seeker

64 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  16:55:02  Show Profile  Visit Grandmaster Kane's Homepage Send Grandmaster Kane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think they would be considered part of the "false" as in the frc core book
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  19:20:09  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks all for cuing me in!

Based on what I see in the FRCS and Player's Guide to Faerun (section on the Fugue Plane) I would think that given the worship of many gods by nearly everyone in the Forgotten Realms, it is ultimately up to the DM to decide which deity's representative calls upon the soul. The DM is acting as the entire FR pantheon, collectively, and is basing his decision on his knowledge of the character.

I would imagine that most people in the Realms who worship do so with real conviction. Especially if the campaign is set relatively recently, the gods themslves walked Toril during the Time of Troubles! The gods are manifestly real and involved in the affairs of mortals.

That said, there is stll the question of how much the gods actually care about their followers. And a good many worshipper may have strong doubts about that. These are potential Faithless. Although if such people merely questioned how responsive a deity may have been to their prayers, the deity may well cut them some slack should their overall behavior have been in line with the faith's dogma and supported the faith in general.

And sure enough, there will be a significant number of folks who were False, i.e., acted against the tenets of their professed religion. Almost by definition, these would be evil types. And they'd be the ones who are most likely to take up the Fugue Plane's baatezus' offer to go to the Abyss and become a lemure. There at least they'd have the opportunity to work their way up, possibly assuming increasingly more powerful forms. And they would avoid an eternity of punishments meted out to the False in the City of Judgment. The fate of the Faithless is horrible too, but it at least has an end.

***

However, I'm glad that DMs are always free to make up their own afterlife cosmology, as is clearly stated in both the Dungeon Master's Guide and Manual of the Planes. And if the FR-specific canon model is disagreeable to folks, there are alternatives that aren't wildly out of line.

I prefer the way the Manual of the Planes has it.

One of the things I appreciate about MotP's model is that souls in the afterlife gradually lose memory of their life on Toril. How gradual is up to the DM. After a certain point the soul forgets its former material existence completely. This creates a limited timeframe in which to resurrect a character, as a spell to restore the character to life is likely to fail if a soul can't even remember who he was.

Another thing I like is that the soul ends up being judged by the deity of the plane that most closely matches his truest nature! This suggests that even if a character worshipped a god in bad faith, or felt no real connection but did so because it was socially most acceptable, etc., the soul will nevertheless be judged by the most appropriate deity.

If the character worshipped no deity at all he goes directly to the plane of the deity which most closely matches his alignment (with race factored in of course).

In the MotP's basic "Judgment" model the souls of the dead "pass through the Outer Planes, where they are judged by their deities." I'm not sure if this should be taken to mean that if they worshipped multiple deities, they are then judged by multiple deities. But if so, perhaps judgment is successively deferred until the deity of the plane that most closely matched the character's truest self finally judges the soul.

Once the soul arrives at the plane of the deity who will render judgment, there may be a bit of a wait. This can factor in to the limited timeframe during which to bring a deceased character back to life on Toril.

I prefer to have a priest who is attempting to raise a dead character always try to assess if in fact the soul wishes to come back! And to assure that the cleric isn't angering a deity by interfering with the deity's plans for the soul. There are a number of spells a priest can use to do this, and its great roleplay.

Those who are judged worthy by the deity "join with the essence of the plane itself, transform into servants of the deity, or pass onto a new level of reality unknown to even the deities themselves." MotP also states in the afterlife souls receive either their "final reward" or "eternal punishment" for their lives on Toril, and "enjoy the frutis or suffer the punishments of their alignments (which I read as the sum of all that they were in life). So the "worthy," i.e., those who the deity deems to have served well in life, will presumably be treated to positive outcomes for the alignment in question.

If the soul of the deceased fails the judgment, there are two possible outcomes. One is that the soul may remain on the Outer Plane as a "petitioner." Evidently it is as a "petitioner" that a soul who has displeased the judging deity--or perhaps even a variety of deities--will reap what what he has sown in life, and suffer "eternal punishment." Here the soul with much to answer for may be punished literally forever. However, because the term "petitioner" is used, I would think that the soul retains some slim chance to eventually prove himself to the deity and one day, and hopefully be judged worthy. Presumably a petitioner can eventually get in the good graces of the deity and in time 'become one with' the plane.

The other possibility is that the soul is sent back to the Material to be reborn narturally through childbirth in a new incarnation (presumably with no memory of the previous incarnation, though perhaps there could be glimmers from time to time that aren't recognized as having their basis in a past life). Or at least I assume the term "reincarnation" used by MotP in this section does not refer to the spell.

Edited by - Lemernis on 17 Feb 2007 20:44:48
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe

341 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  22:58:52  Show Profile  Visit Mazrim_Taim's Homepage Send Mazrim_Taim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think given how a dozen different deities can have some control over aspects of a creature in Faerun as it goes about it's day to day routines that most in FR would worship or pay homage to multiple gods. The whole patron deity deal is not Realmsish to me. Except to those religion fanatics (ie, nutters :P), and priests, etc.

And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
205 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  23:17:12  Show Profile  Visit nbnmare's Homepage Send nbnmare a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given that 3/4 of the organizations in Faerun are devoted to a specific deity, patron deities seem very Realmish to me.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  23:38:03  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim

I think given how a dozen different deities can have some control over aspects of a creature in Faerun as it goes about it's day to day routines that most in FR would worship or pay homage to multiple gods. The whole patron deity deal is not Realmsish to me. Except to those religion fanatics (ie, nutters :P), and priests, etc.
I think that choice of a patron deity is really more about deciding what afterlife you want to go to when you die. I don't see any problem with worshipping multiple gods. But when you die, you gotta go somewhere, and the patron deity concept was an attempt to resolve that.

My own workaround is that, you can have multiple patrons if you like. When you die, your soul goes to the Fugue, and your name ends up on the "list" of all the gods you considered patrons. Their representatives can approach you and ask you to come with them to your final afterlife. You may go with the first one that comes by, or you might refuse that one and wait for some other representative to come by. He can go with whomever he chooses.

The only drawback is that a soul in the Fugue has no mortal memories, this must be kind of confusing, like having amnesia. A soul might be inclined to go with the first kindly face that comes by and says "let's go!". It may be that most souls are not in much of a position to decline. So in that case, one's afterlife may be decided merely by the randomness of which patron's agent approaches one first. Though a few may have the wherewithal to say no and wait for something better to come along.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  05:37:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno... I've always gone with the idea that a person's patron deity is going to be the deity that is most like that person. So, for me, even if a person worshipped multiple deities in exactly equal amounts, the tie-breaker would be the person's own nature and personality.

To use myself as an example, if I was in the Realms, I would likely give Lurue, Lathander, Torm, and Tymora most of my attention. If I somehow worshipped all four equally, my nature would be the deciding factor. Being that I am highly whimsical, I have a sense of wonder, and I am apt to do things for the sake of doing them, Lurue would win out.

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Tyr
Learned Scribe

225 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  13:56:56  Show Profile  Visit Tyr's Homepage Send Tyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, you'll only have one deity you devote yourself to, and is most like yourself, as Wooly says. Offering a prayer at some random time to a god isn't true worship or devotion. Even if say you make a prayer to Lathander for a good spring every year. You aren't worshipping Lathander, just asking for a small favour.

The Patron Deity idea is perfectly valid.

Except possibly for non-humans, as they have the time to devote to more than one god, ie. Dwarves who would typically have shrines to Moradin, Clangeddin and Dumathoin in their mines.

Edited by - Tyr on 18 Feb 2007 13:58:02
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  14:07:02  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

The only drawback is that a soul in the Fugue has no mortal memories, this must be kind of confusing, like having amnesia. A soul might be inclined to go with the first kindly face that comes by and says "let's go!". It may be that most souls are not in much of a position to decline. So in that case, one's afterlife may be decided merely by the randomness of which patron's agent approaches one first. Though a few may have the wherewithal to say no and wait for something better to come along.



From FRCS:

quote:
The spirits of the dead...[in the Fugue Plane are]... usually unaware that they have died....

A worshipper's soul automatically recognizes an agent of it's own deity...[and]... knows that it needs to go with that agent... The agent collects the souls and returns to its deity's realm, where the worshipper serves the deity in whatever capacity necessary.


PGtF doesn't add anything to the picture with respect to what the soul may or may not remember of its former life in the Material.

The fact that most of the souls of the dead in the Fugue Plane fail to grasp where they are or what has happened to them, does seem to suggest an amnesia. But I wonder if that actually amounts to a kind of momentary disorientation. At least in the sections on the Afterlife and Fugue Plane in FRCS and PGtF, nowehere does it state that souls of the dead lose any memory of their former life. (Not to say I might not have overlooked something; those books are for me refernce materials and I've never read them cover-to-cover.)

If they retain memory of what happened just prior to arriving in the Fugue Plane (eg, they were in a battle and the enemy struck a fatal blow), they are easily going to put two and two together.

They are definitely going to learn that they are dead when the baatezu approach them and offer their deal to come with them to the Abyss and serve a master somewhere there as a lemure. The baatezu will have to explain what happened to them in order to make their offer. And presumably souls of the dead watch other souls being approached and collected by agents of deities, they talk with other souls who are waiting, etc. So I would think that in fairly short order the souls of the dead in the Fugue Plane get cued in to the fact that they're in the afterlife.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  14:48:11  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the Faithless and False concepts are very important.

However, it's NOT believing in a deity.

Belief has NOTHING to do with it.

Faithless people are people that venerate a deity but don't actually honor their tenants. He's the guy who says he's a member of Lathander's faith but it impacts his life absolutely zero.

They stay with Kelemvor in my campaigns and live lives where they don't suffer or enjoy life.

The False are the guys whom effectively are consigned to Hell as we think of it in Christian terms. They're punished for outrageously defying their stated religion but refusing to place themselves in another deities care. The Selunite rapist in Road of the Patriarch for example.

Kelemvor carries out the punishment in this case. Unfortunately, this means some well meaning but stupid good people get punished (though I imagine Kelemvor is fair and offers good/evil people the chance to pledge themselves to another god)

If all the gods handle this stuff themselves then there's no real need for a God of the Dead.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  15:25:47  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

I think the Faithless and False concepts are very important.

However, it's NOT believing in a deity.

Belief has NOTHING to do with it.

Faithless people are people that venerate a deity but don't actually honor their tenants. He's the guy who says he's a member of Lathander's faith but it impacts his life absolutely zero.

They stay with Kelemvor in my campaigns and live lives where they don't suffer or enjoy life.

The False are the guys whom effectively are consigned to Hell as we think of it in Christian terms. They're punished for outrageously defying their stated religion but refusing to place themselves in another deities care. The Selunite rapist in Road of the Patriarch for example.

Kelemvor carries out the punishment in this case. Unfortunately, this means some well meaning but stupid good people get punished (though I imagine Kelemvor is fair and offers good/evil people the chance to pledge themselves to another god)

If all the gods handle this stuff themselves then there's no real need for a God of the Dead.



Here's what FRCS actually says about the Faithless (p.259):

quote:
The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing.


So actually it is stated very explicitly that they didn't truly believe. I.e., there are some who in life professed faith in a deity/deities but only pretended to believe ("lip service"). For whatever motivation.

But I would think that there must be true believers who yet at times struggled with issues such as doubt about how involved the deities really are in the life of mortals, and how they measured up as a true servant of the faith, etc. These souls could fall into a gray area.

My guess is that some of those souls are judged worthy to be called by the deity that the souls felt their strongest connection with. Though at times the individual's conviction may have been lacking, or they acted outside of the faith's dogma, that deity sometimes decides that in the balance these souls are a worthwhile investment as a servant on their plane.

Where Kelemvor comes in, it seems, is with respect to those for whom the deities other than Kelemvor deem unworthy to be called to serve in their plane. So Kelemvor's role would seem to be to determine whether a) these souls are Faithless or False, and b) if they are False, then what their eternal fate will be in the City of Judgment. Their punishments range from light to severe.

Edited by - Lemernis on 18 Feb 2007 16:09:46
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  21:39:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is some really good stuff in this thread; definately food for thought.

I don't want to go through and pick out all the juicy tidbits, so I'll just say that I'm glad that I'm not the only one one who has spent time thinking about this.

Its very hard, with our Judaeo-Christian monotheistic beliefs sytems, to wrap our minds around multiple 'Heavens' and multiple 'Hells'. Especially the fact that some people might be actively worshipping a power so that they can get into Hell!

Also, the false is an easy one for me, because I see it every day in the RW. The Faiathless, on the other hand, is really hard to sort out in FR theology, especially after the ToT. How can anyone NOT believe in the Gods after that?

I've been trying to make sence of the whole religion thing in game terms for years, and have pretty much chalked it up to "the great mysteries that mortals aren't privy to".

I do like the concept that the Faithless get judged, and wind up on their alignment's plane, whereas the False get punished and go straight to Hell.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Feb 2007 21:42:02
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Tyr
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Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  22:05:36  Show Profile  Visit Tyr's Homepage Send Tyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can't remember the exact line from Constantine but there is a difference between knowing that gods exist and believing in them. Everyone in Faerun knows the gods exist, but not everyone considers the gods worthy of their worship(more accurate word than belief).

Good example is the Kir Lanans.

Edited by - Tyr on 18 Feb 2007 22:07:26
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  22:22:06  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
PGtF doesn't add anything to the picture with respect to what the soul may or may not remember of its former life in the Material.

The fact that most of the souls of the dead in the Fugue Plane fail to grasp where they are or what has happened to them, does seem to suggest an amnesia. But I wonder if that actually amounts to a kind of momentary disorientation. At least in the sections on the Afterlife and Fugue Plane in FRCS and PGtF, nowehere does it state that souls of the dead lose any memory of their former life.
The information about souls losing their mortal memories comes from 2e lore--most notably the sourcebook On Hallowed Ground. As far as I know this lore has not been rewritten or contradicted in any 3e material so I presume it is still valid.

As the soul leaves it's body it passes into the Astral Plane where it sheds its memories, leaving them behind in the Astral in a "memory core". From there the soul is whisked through an astral conduit to the Fugue Plane where it forms a new petitioner body using the base petitioner template from the Manual of the Planes p.199-200.

Actually, it looks like the MotP somewhat reaffirms the 2e lore, because a base petitioner loses all skills, feats and it looks like they lose all their class levels as well, so there does still appear to be some kind of memory loss going on, even though it doesn't state it explicitly in the MotP.
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  22:47:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But, in the novels (forget which) it states that they lose their memory over time, which is left vague and open-ended and lets the DM decide (as it should be). After all, you have a certain amount of time to ressurect someone, correct? They would still have to 'hear the call' from the prime for their 'soul' to be summoned back to their body. That means someone forgets everything, you can't ressurect anymore.

Since it's open-ended like that, I would think it depends on the individuals 'sense of self', which in game terms amounts to experience. Figure the higher the character's level, the longer it takes them to forget their material life (One month per level?). Would be fun to have an adventure where you have to find someone's spirit before it forgets everything, sort of like an adventure with a time-limit.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Feb 2007 22:49:02
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  23:30:40  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, not sure which novel you are speaking of. Typically sourcebooks overide novels. Though there are some cases where gods can let certain petitioners keep their memories.

If the memories reside in the Astral plane as a memory core, then that would seem to preclude gradual forgetting. But it does not hamper reincarnation as the soul simply retrieves its memory core as it passes through the Astral on the way back to inhabit its body.

This might also somewhat explain the speak with dead spell. You arent really speaking with the dead soul but rather its memory core, which is a souless collection of data.

But I do agree that it is ultimately DMs call how to work this. It is always DMs call. A DM can always ignore or modify canon. I am merely pointing out that the RAW do seem to have an established position on the matter.
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  23:31:52  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Above, where I said "reincarnation" I meant to say "resurrection"
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Lemernis
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Posted - 19 Feb 2007 :  00:45:04  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
PGtF doesn't add anything to the picture with respect to what the soul may or may not remember of its former life in the Material.

The fact that most of the souls of the dead in the Fugue Plane fail to grasp where they are or what has happened to them, does seem to suggest an amnesia. But I wonder if that actually amounts to a kind of momentary disorientation. At least in the sections on the Afterlife and Fugue Plane in FRCS and PGtF, nowehere does it state that souls of the dead lose any memory of their former life.
The information about souls losing their mortal memories comes from 2e lore--most notably the sourcebook On Hallowed Ground. As far as I know this lore has not been rewritten or contradicted in any 3e material so I presume it is still valid.

As the soul leaves it's body it passes into the Astral Plane where it sheds its memories, leaving them behind in the Astral in a "memory core". From there the soul is whisked through an astral conduit to the Fugue Plane where it forms a new petitioner body using the base petitioner template from the Manual of the Planes p.199-200.

Actually, it looks like the MotP somewhat reaffirms the 2e lore, because a base petitioner loses all skills, feats and it looks like they lose all their class levels as well, so there does still appear to be some kind of memory loss going on, even though it doesn't state it explicitly in the MotP.



I'm learning all the time, thanks.

MotP does suggest that the soul might pass through each of the planes, although the language is a little unclear. What it actually states is "souls drift toward the Outer Plane that matches their nature most closely," and that they "pass through the Outer Planes, where they are judged by their deities." As the soul astrally drifts does it pass through all of the Outer Planes? Just some of them? Only the ones the deity worshipped? Or does this drifting have no stops along the way? It's not clear.

Anyway, MotP and FRCS don't state that the soul doesn't travel through each of the planes. One of the differences in the FRCS, though, is that it seems to imply the soul is drawn directly to the Fugue Plane.

Similarly, while it isn't stated in FRCS and PGtF that the soul loses memory, it doesn't say either that there isn't any memory loss!

But yeah, anyway, in light of what's stated in OHG and MotP, I myself prefer that the soul gradually loses memory. MotP states that when souls arrive at the plane where they are judged, they are subject to "eventually forgetting their past lives." So there is some memory, but how much is unclear, as is how rapidly it fades. As Markustay says, it seems the progression is apprently left up to the DM.

I like the memory loss model, since the soul is no longer rooted in the Material, and therefore it just makes intuitive sense. And as noted the gradual memory loss helps put a timeframe on comrades back on Toril raising the deceased PC.

Also, there's no mention in FRCS or PGtF of how long a soul might hang out in the Fugue Plane when no deity's representative comes to collect him. If no deities judge the soul worthy, at some point (evidently) a representative of Kelemvor comes to take the soul to the City of Judgment. I guess leaving that openended allows the other PCs time to raise their fallen comrade. There's no deity to anger by raising the PC other than Kelemvor, and Kelemvor could easily be fine with the PC returning to the world of the living, where he may still eventually get right with a deity.
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Feb 2007 :  05:17:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

The information about souls losing their mortal memories comes from 2e lore--most notably the sourcebook On Hallowed Ground. As far as I know this lore has not been rewritten or contradicted in any 3e material so I presume it is still valid
Sorry, it's not cannon.

You are quoting a Planescape source, and I am referencing a Forgotten Realms novel (Prince of Lies, I believe).

2e, wrong setting, wrong cosmology... sorry, it just doesn't fly.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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