| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| RodOdom |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 23:37:57
Who are the best military commanders of today's Faerun? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 11:08:45
Yamun Khahan was certainly an incredible military leader, but he's disqualified from inclusion in this study, as he's not a living military commander in the 1370s.
And while Obould-who-is-Gruumsh was certainly remarkable for an orc, and clearly had political sophistication far above what can be expected of that brutish race, he is still, in my opinion, not on par with other commanders mentioned here. For one thing, King Obould has the advantage of numbers. He commands a populous and warlike species and his tens of thousands face humans and dwarves in their hundreds. It is not unexpected that Obould is able to make some gains with such a huge advantage.
Of course, the numbers are partially due to his political genius and success at selecting and mollifying key subordinate leaders. But that makes him a successful politician, not a legendary military leader. I wouldn't have any scruples about including Obould on a list of the most astute politians of the Realms, but militarily he's suffered about as many defeats as he's won victories. |
| Darius Talynth |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 00:16:38
While I admit to not reading as many of the FR novels as some others here, as mentioned earlier in another post (sorry can't remember who), I can't recall too many exmaples of large scale warfare and examples of great military strategy. The only two that come to my immediate mind are:
The tuigan Khan of the Horde
and more recently Obould.
Even though the Khan was stopped in the end, what he was able to accomplish was impressive.
Obould, as in the recent RAS trilogy, demonstrated fantastic leadership and strategy especially for an orc. That he was able to sustain his gains and force the silver marches to sue for peace (or accept his offer) was remarkable.
As for the military genius of the Chosen. I can't think of any real examples to draw on. I'm sure they would be capable, but of the lords of Waterdeep for example, Piergeron was the open lord and responsible for the defence of the city. Khelben would have played a different role. Doesn't mean that he would be a poor military leader but it is likely something that he and many other wizards would not study and practice. They focus on their magic. Quite likely a mage such as Khelben, and well the Simbul for certain, could lay waste to an entire army on their own, unles said army had an equivalent counter to the mage or his magic.
So I would suggest that some of the Chosen might be capable military leaders/commanders but it doesn't seem to really fit with their history or basic MO as I have seen it. So I would not count them as great military commanders of faerun.
As an aside, for a good series may I suggest people read Steven Erikson's Malazan series for examples of warfare with magic on both sides. It also has good scenarios of how gods meddle actively in the world and characters of different races interacting. It took me a little while to get into but I am now a fan of the series. Not FR but hey, a good read is a good read. |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 21:13:02
I wonder if Randal Morn would make the list for his insurgent campaign against the Zhents in Dagger Dale?
Are the any famous Hobgoblin Commanders? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:54:28
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
[I have read Starfall, but I remember little of it (I suspect it's a self-defence mechanism on the part of my brain, to try to forget bad novels I read). To make sure I can answer accurately, I went back and reread the Alustriel part of the book.
Wow. I have to say, that's quite the dedication to thoroughly answering my question. I do appreciate it.
quote:
On the basis of this story and her performance in the RAS novels, I can't say that she appears to be a very good ruler. But she might well have good political instincts, though, and long experience in that field. After all, political ability and sound policies aren't related at all. 
Thanks for sharing your very detailed thoughts on the matter. Again, I appreciate it, and as usual I enjoyed reading your commentary. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:38:33
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Sure, with the addition that it also means being good at spotting when others do that and understanding the mechanisms of the spread of news and rumours, the ulterior motives of people and how to work with people of differing opinions.
Thanks, I appreciate this more complete definition.
quote:
It's not stated that it's higher level Fireballs, but then again, the Chariot spell is clearly high-level and the effects of the Fireballs is relatively dramatic.
But she came across as unprepared, overly emotional and unfamiliar with warfare. That's not all that unrealistic, in that it's possible to live for centuries without personally leading troops to war all that often and the emotional turmoil that's part of being Chosen means that their emotions often get the better of them, but it certainly means that I'd rather choose a grizzled old battlemaster of the Purple Dragons as my general.
Same here, definitely. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 10:04:46
Icelander, I will not debate the drow armies of the past, winners or loosers in here, as this is a-topical. As I said above. Much of what you argued about holds true, others does not, IMHO. The thread was not about that though, it was asking about living military commanders and I put two up for that. And I know for certain that the Baenre Weapon Master was amongst the troops who chased the enemy out of Menzoberranzan. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 01:09:19
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I wanted to add:
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Have you read Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters yet? Alustriel is shown in action as a ruler (that is managing her city, not leading an army) in her part of the book. I was wondering how you thought she came off, if you read that novel.
I have read Starfall, but I remember little of it (I suspect it's a self-defence mechanism on the part of my brain, to try to forget bad novels I read). To make sure I can answer accurately, I went back and reread the Alustriel part of the book.
First of all, we glimpse her in the process of solving a mystery. Why is she doing it at all? Unless she deliberately keeps her city lawless and chaotic, there must be other people who have the job of solving crimes. Delegation, it's necessary for every ruler, even those who think they are more capable than anyone under their command.
There is no doubt that the Spellguard could easily have done the job of questioning the suspects and despite the personal power Alustriel showed in the fight with the Vauntagar, a group of disciplined combat mages should have been able to handle it just as well.
After all, if the Thayvians hadn't been so arrogant and stupid, they would have defeated her. Stopping to gloat every few seconds isn't conductive to a victory in a spell duel, however, so it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that no Thayvian (as they appear in TSR/WotC novels, at least) will ever win a contest of wits or spellcraft against anyone but the rawest apprentice.
Alustriel also appears very reactive in her actions, not taking the initiative until at the very end. Her task, as the ruler, should be to oversee the large-scale decisions and long-time political strategy, not get caught up in the day-to-day security of the city.
As for her performance in the investigation, I couldn't help feeling that she deliberately and without any compelling reason kept people off-guard in the interviews with her. She was needlessly antagonistic and then suddenly tender for little reason. There was no need for mind-games, not when there was a truth field in effect and simple questions would have sufficed. And the death threats were utterly unecessary and served mostly to make me lose respect for the character and wonder at her sanity.
Taern Hornblade appeared to be much more professional and competent when it came to the investigation. He did what needed to be done, without threats or bluster. Happily, he is now the ruler of Silverymoon and probably a very good one.
I also question the answers she gave Draevin Flarwood. A strong army and a capable law enforcement agency aren't merely the tools of war. The first is necessary in any land which can come under attack and the second is necesary in any land where people live, given that there will always be some people who seek to harm other people. Defeding the kingdom and its people aren't unnecessary expenses, they are the core of what a ruler is supposed to do.
By refusing to establish a professional force that handle these tasks, she's implicitly deciding that it's good enough to do them on an ad hoc basis. Even when that clearly means that more people die in the inevitable wars and that the city suffers while the ruler is busy doing work that should be done by a police force.
Silverymoon is in the North, where civilisation after civilisation has been destroyed by massing orcs, flights of dragons or other monsters. It's irresponsible in the extreme to expect that nonhuman predators will respect the will of Alustriel to rule a peaceful kingdom with no desire for war.
Just a short while after this story is written, we see the results of her policies. People in hamlets and villages in the North suffer in the war against the orcs and Silverymoon is too weak to send help. People die so that Silverymoon might preserve an appearance of peacefulness.
I have to admit, her attitude sickens me. I can't stand pacifism when it results in innocents getting killed and I especially can't stand it when it's not even a real philosophical position, but instead some kind of mealy-mouthed opposition to organising the forces that must inevitably deal in violence. We see that Alustriel does indeed stoop to violence when she judges it necessary, even stoops to the very mind-reaming which she mentally berated Khelben with, but she does not approve of fielding a professional military in place of the painfully few Knights of Silver she has?
Given the choice between the predictable and relatively benevolent tyranny of Vangerdahast or Khelben and the appalling combination of laissez-faire and chaotic, sudden heavy-handed action that Alustriel appears to stand for, I'd choose Khelben or Vangey every time. With them, at least you know that there is a plan and that it probably is a good one.
In Alustriel's case, all the good intentions in the world don't matter, since her lack of organisation and the ability to delegate means that she'll be unable to deal with all the necessary crises of government.
On the basis of this story and her performance in the RAS novels, I can't say that she appears to be a very good ruler. But she might well have good political instincts, though, and long experience in that field. After all, political ability and sound policies aren't related at all. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:57:56
Jarlaxle or any Drow House Master like Zaknafein. These guys were relentless and brutal, having had to prove themselves constantly until they rose to the ranks of leading House armies against each other. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:20:57
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Having political ability means to have a grasp of the world of politics.
No offense, but that's not a satisfactory definition, it's a tautology. Would you say that having political ability means, as you said after that, being "skilled at manipulating people and opinions?"
Sure, with the addition that it also means being good at spotting when others do that and understanding the mechanisms of the spread of news and rumours, the ulterior motives of people and how to work with people of differing opinions.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The fireballs might have been 7th level spells, but I don't think there's anyway of knowing that for a fact (that is, I don't recall the text saying Alustriel's fireballs were more a more powerful version of the typical spell). That said, I completely agree that Alustriel didn't exactly come off as the master mage she's supposed to be, especially considering that she's had at least 600 years to hone her skills (in all aspects of life, for that matter).
It's not stated that it's higher level Fireballs, but then again, the Chariot spell is clearly high-level and the effects of the Fireballs is relatively dramatic.
But she came across as unprepared, overly emotional and unfamiliar with warfare. That's not all that unrealistic, in that it's possible to live for centuries without personally leading troops to war all that often and the emotional turmoil that's part of being Chosen means that their emotions often get the better of them, but it certainly means that I'd rather choose a grizzled old battlemaster of the Purple Dragons as my general. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 22:14:56
Well put, Icelander. That was an excellent treatise on the past (as we are in 4e) leadership of Faerun.
And, even though some may disagree with that trilogy (which I do vehemently), I do believe it would be included in canon, as it was approved and published as an official RSE.
C-Fb |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 21:14:51
I wanted to add:
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Have you read Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters yet? Alustriel is shown in action as a ruler (that is managing her city, not leading an army) in her part of the book. I was wondering how you thought she came off, if you read that novel. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 21:12:58
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Understood.
quote:
Having political ability means to have a grasp of the world of politics.
No offense, but that's not a satisfactory definition, it's a tautology. Would you say that having political ability means, as you said after that, being "skilled at manipulating people and opinions?"
quote:
The wizard I'm referencing is the battle mage in Calimport that Entreri faced. The same could apply to the drow wizard that Drizzt faced when he was young.
Alustriel, though, cast plenty of 7th+ level magics in the battle. She cast Chariot of Sustarre and probably Delayed Blast Fireballs. But I quite agree that her memorisation that day was faulty. She should have had Contingencies and Simbul's Spell Sequencers enough to be able to unleash multiple spells per round, not to mention that she should have made it difficult to target her by being invisible and undetectable.
The fireballs might have been 7th level spells, but I don't think there's anyway of knowing that for a fact (that is, I don't recall the text saying Alustriel's fireballs were more a more powerful version of the typical spell). That said, I completely agree that Alustriel didn't exactly come off as the master mage she's supposed to be, especially considering that she's had at least 600 years to hone her skills (in all aspects of life, for that matter). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Then can you please define what it means to have "political ability", and tell me why you think Alustriel has it?
I really just want to better understand your view of her.
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Having political ability means to have a grasp of the world of politics. Real world people that I would rate as good politicians are Bill Clinton, Karl Rove, Tony Blair and Adolf Hitler. Note that this has nothing to do with what I think about their policies, but that I believe that they are skilled at manipulating people and opinions.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Note, however, that the 'super-powerful wizard' in question appeared to be a mid-level mage.
Which one? I'm getting a bit confused here. Even when RAS writes about Alustriel using spells, he generally just has her casting fireballs, as I recall--not exactly the pinnacle of her abilities. The point I tried to make in mentioning this is that RAS has never quite written wizards as "tacticians with spells" like, say, Ed Greenwood has.
The wizard I'm referencing is the battle mage in Calimport that Entreri faced. The same could apply to the drow wizard that Drizzt faced when he was young.
Alustriel, though, cast plenty of 7th+ level magics in the battle. She cast Chariot of Sustarre and probably Delayed Blast Fireballs. But I quite agree that her memorisation that day was faulty. She should have had Contingencies and Simbul's Spell Sequencers enough to be able to unleash multiple spells per round, not to mention that she should have made it difficult to target her by being invisible and undetectable. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:42:36
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
That makes her a poor leader, military or otherwise, but it doesn't speak for her political ability. It's possible to be a very good politician without being worth anything as a leader (Karl Rove springs to mind).
Then can you please define what it means to have "political ability", and tell me why you think Alustriel has it?
I really just want to better understand your view of her.
quote:
Note, however, that the 'super-powerful wizard' in question appeared to be a mid-level mage.
Which one? I'm getting a bit confused here. Even when RAS writes about Alustriel using spells, he generally just has her casting fireballs, as I recall--not exactly the pinnacle of her abilities. The point I tried to make in mentioning this is that RAS has never quite written wizards as "tacticians with spells" like, say, Ed Greenwood has. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:30:08
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I have no reason to assume that she's not good at politics.
What about the fact that she apparently didn't at least have someone knowledgable on hand (like one of her aforementioned sons) to help her prevent lot of the mistakes we're talking about? Again, I'm not really trying to argue about this, but in some of your other posts you said you consider it a mark of great leadership to have a good staff of experts, especially if one isn't actually that great at military leadership. So, aren't some of these major blunders enough reason to think that Alustriel overlooked something when it came to dispatching her army, even if she's among the best at, say, diplomacy?
That makes her a poor leader, military or otherwise, but it doesn't speak for her political ability. It's possible to be a very good politician without being worth anything as a leader (Karl Rove springs to mind).
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
But in Mithril Hall, she committed a significant part of her army to a kingdom far away from her holdings. Moreover, she did so without supporting them with even a fraction of her magical strength.
No kidding. However, I have to be fair and point out that (as was the case with Khelben and Laeral in the RotAW trilogy), Alustriel is not RAS's character, and from what I remember of his earlier novels, RAS wrote of supposedly super-powerful wizards as mainly casting fireballs and lightening bolts and (for some reason) neglecting the more subtle and tactical spells that one would expect them to use. I would agree that how characters act in these novels is often all we have to go on, and as far as I know the Battle of Mithril Hall is the only one in which I recall Alustriel directly fighting in and/or acting as a general. But this kind of touches on whether or not the characters in novels acted as they "should have" given their abilities (or the lack thereof)--although that really is an entirely different debate.
True enough.
Note, however, that the 'super-powerful wizard' in question appeared to be a mid-level mage. RAS appears to assume that wizards are more powerful than other characters of the same level (which holds true in most D&D incarnations I've heard about). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:25:07
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I have no reason to assume that she's not good at politics.
What about the fact that she apparently didn't at least have someone knowledgable on hand (like one of her aforementioned sons) to help her prevent lot of the mistakes we're talking about? Again, I'm not really trying to argue about this, but in some of your other posts you said you consider it a mark of great leadership to have a good staff of experts, especially if one isn't actually that great at military leadership. So, aren't some of these major blunders enough reason to think that Alustriel overlooked something when it came to dispatching her army, even if she's among the best at, say, diplomacy? After all, Alustriel is the ruler of Silverymoon, not just a diplomat.
I just don't see how knowing how to dispatch an army (or knowing who can do a good job of it for you if you can't do it) isn't a part of politics.
quote:
But in Mithril Hall, she committed a significant part of her army to a kingdom far away from her holdings. Moreover, she did so without supporting them with even a fraction of her magical strength.
No kidding. However, I have to be fair and point out that (as was the case with Khelben and Laeral in the RotAW trilogy), Alustriel is not RAS's character, and from what I remember of his earlier novels, RAS wrote of supposedly super-powerful wizards as mainly casting fireballs and lightening bolts and (for some reason) neglecting the more subtle and tactical spells that one would expect them to use. I would agree that how characters act in these novels is often all we have to go on, and as far as I know the Battle of Mithril Hall is the only one in which I recall Alustriel directly fighting in and/or acting as a general. But this kind of touches on whether or not the characters in novels acted as they "should have" given their abilities (or the lack thereof)--although that really is an entirely different debate. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Alustriel made so many basic mistakes in the fight for Mithril Hall that it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. It is clear that she should stick to politics and avoid anything resembling warfare.
Could you elaborate on this point? I'm not going to argue with it, I'm just curious about it. I also a bit confused--on one hand you say Alustriel should stick to politics, but on the other hand you say it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. By that, are you referring to the fact that she almost died at the battle for Mithril Hall (and I would agree that she didn't seem so "powerful" as a wizard in those scenes) and it's amazing she's still alive, or do you think she's not even that good at politics?
I have no reason to assume that she's not good at politics.
But in Mithril Hall, she committed a significant part of her army to a kingdom far away from her holdings. Moreover, she did so without supporting them with even a fraction of her magical strength.
Predictably, her Knights in Silver suffered terrible losses, losses which could have been prevented or minimised if they'd been adequately supported. In addition, she herself recklessly attacked drow wizards when she could have used guile and misdirection to achieve the same result.*
A combination of poor preparation and unthinking action on the battlefield led to a Pyrrhic victory.
It's frankly surprising that she hasn't suffered a worse defeat until now and been killed or deposed.
*Improved Invisibility, Nondetection and Wall of Fire until the copse was burning around them. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 19:22:09
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Alustriel made so many basic mistakes in the fight for Mithril Hall that it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. It is clear that she should stick to politics and avoid anything resembling warfare.
Could you elaborate on this point? I'm not going to argue with it, I'm just curious about it. I also a bit confused--on one hand you say Alustriel should stick to politics, but on the other hand you say it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. By that, are you referring to the fact that she almost died at the battle for Mithril Hall (and I would agree that she didn't seem so "powerful" as a wizard in those scenes) and it's amazing she's still alive, or do you think she's not even that good at politics?
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not use the events of that trilogy as a firm basis for anything. The main reason I so despise that trilogy is that the characters not created by the author all managed to be bungling idiots, despite what any previous Realmslore indicated. The author's characters, on the other hand, always had good advice (which was conveniently ignored) and always managed to do the right thing. I understand playing up your own characters, but making your characters look good by making everyone else act stupid and out of character is a very poor way of doing it.
Had Khelben been acting in character, he certainly would have created as many portals as necessary to get the army to Evereska. I can't see any reason that someone proven to be as smart and sneaky as him wouldn't have thought of that -- or why no one around him would have thought to suggest it.
That is true enough. The RotA trilogy appears to be singularily bad at portraying many Realms NPCs. I expect Troy Denning will find it much easier to write in the New and Improved Realms, where he doesn't have to feature any other NPCs at all.
But then the problem becomes that we haven't seen Khelben or Laeral in their capacity as military leaders at all. Khelben functioned more as a spellcaster than leader in the Sahuagin attack on Waterdeep (I'm not sure who had overall command in that mess) and Laeral didn't appear to lead men there either.
Khelben appears to have many qualities which should make him a good military leader. He's intelligent, cool under pressure, quick to adapt and understands the motivations of other people. The one quality he conspiciously lacks, though, is the trust of other people. In that he is much like Vangerdahast, but at least the old Royal Magician is trusted by most War Wizards and Purple Dragons, whereas Khelben appears to be feared and distrusted by the vast majority of Waterhavians.
It is hard to imagine many people flocking to his banner or sacrificing their lives for him. Yes, he has the loyalty of his Moonstars and some other personal friends, often those who have taken the trouble to get to know him, but he'll never have an easy way with people or be accused of having the 'common touch'. While Azoun IV might have inspired love with a wink and a wave, Khelben does not have that quality. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:33:56
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I do not forget much concerning the drow. The army of the Black Spider was set upon by House Dyrr as well as being attacked by serious foes (any army will have trouble fighting). That was not the army who repelled the foes at Menzo's doorstep nor the point. Rod was asking for military leaders, not un-/succesful armies.
Well, if a part of your army attacks the rest of it, I'd say that this constitutes a discipline problem. 
Rightly or wrongly, we hold the overall commander of any army responsible for the behaviour of those under him. The fact that Caesar's Gallic Army was a superb instrument of warfare directly reflects upon Caesar's competence as a general. He selected the leaders, recruited the troops and forged it into a cohesive whole.
Why then should we not hold drow commanders responsible for the failures of their troops? A truly great military leader might have been expected to know his troops well enough to be aware that they were actually fighting for the other side, could he not?
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
So far, these two are ranked just below the top strata of House Baenre and as opposed to Star Trek or the like, the "Captain of the ship" ... ahem drow house usually does not walk into the fray. She uses her military commanders. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to push these or other drow into the list, just putting them forward as requested.
As far as I can see, the lack of operational freedom for subordinate leaders is a weakness of drow armies. Also, due to a lack of experience with strategy (which is a province of the Matron Mothers), drow generals are usually not able or willing to adapt their tactical plan to a changing strategic situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As for the mightier drow being unable to bash a duergar city into submission, they a) can only do so if the designers want them to (e.g. Blingdenstone, Ched Nasad) and b ) if the chances are good that they may succeed. Any kind of large-scale warfare in the Underdark is facing enormous difficulties (logistic-wise alone) and it is not the case that e.g. Gracklstugh is a toothless dwarven mine.
Anyway, this is not the thread to debate this.
But Menzoberranzan also failed to win against Mithril Hall, when possessed of a considerable superiority in manpower, magic and clerical aid.
And if logistical concerns make a given venture impractical, it is the duty of a military commander to state so. I recall no logistical problems being raised in the siege of Mithril Hall, only a lack of morale and unit cohesion. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 16:02:45
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, those drow who pushed the tanarukka and duergar out of Menzoberranzan may have a place on that list.
Andzrel Baenre (Weapon Master of House Baenre, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) and Zal'therra Baenre (Priestess and Cousin of Triel, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) may be two of them.
You mean the army that was nearly annihilated against the Duergar in Condemnation?
I'd say that much like other drow armies, it is too riven by internal politics and paranoia to ever be a reliable military force. Added to that, Andzrel Baenre does not appear to have any strategic vision, being little more than a tactical commander under a council of short-sighted megalomaniacs who are incapable of cooperation.
Individually, drow elves are fearsome fighters. In small units, even, they are capable of startling coordination learned by long practice. In large formation, they are nearly unmanagable and, in fact, usually end up working at cross purposes.
And let's not forget that both Andzrel and Zal'therra are lesser kin, cousins or descendents of far mighter drow. And that those mightier drow were still not capable enough as military leaders to subdue one small dwarven kingdom.
I do not forget much concerning the drow. The army of the Black Spider was set upon by House Dyrr as well as being attacked by serious foes (any army will have trouble fighting). That was not the army who repelled the foes at Menzo's doorstep nor the point. Rod was asking for military leaders, not un-/succesful armies.
So far, these two are ranked just below the top strata of House Baenre and as opposed to Star Trek or the like, the "Captain of the ship" ... ahem drow house usually does not walk into the fray. She uses her military commanders. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to push these or other drow into the list, just putting them forward as requested.
As for the mightier drow being unable to bash a duergar city into submission, they a) can only do so if the designers want them to (e.g. Blingdenstone, Ched Nasad) and b ) if the chances are good that they may succeed. Any kind of large-scale warfare in the Underdark is facing enormous difficulties (logistic-wise alone) and it is not the case that e.g. Gracklstugh is a toothless dwarven mine.
Anyway, this is not the thread to debate this. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 15:23:37
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As for the Chosen, I do not believe I'd include them in any such write-up. Khelben is a geopolitical genius, but when it comes to military strategy and tactics, neither he nor Laeral distinguished themselves in the war for Everaska. For one thing, for god-powered archmages, they seem depressingly immobile and slow in their strategy.
One would think that some faster method was available to the learned Khelben than marching the army all the way. For months, during which they strategic situation got steadily worse and Khelben was unavailable for a lot of vital tasks. Teleporting a few each day would probably have been faster, let alone using just some of the many portals Khelben is supposed to know about. For crying out loud, he uses a portal as his larder!
I'd not use the events of that trilogy as a firm basis for anything. The main reason I so despise that trilogy is that the characters not created by the author all managed to be bungling idiots, despite what any previous Realmslore indicated. The author's characters, on the other hand, always had good advice (which was conveniently ignored) and always managed to do the right thing. I understand playing up your own characters, but making your characters look good by making everyone else act stupid and out of character is a very poor way of doing it.
Had Khelben been acting in character, he certainly would have created as many portals as necessary to get the army to Evereska. I can't see any reason that someone proven to be as smart and sneaky as him wouldn't have thought of that -- or why no one around him would have thought to suggest it. |
| Fillow |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 13:53:17
Good stuff Icelander ! Your study of the FR military leaders seems to be great !
I print it and will have a look at it tonight.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 13:15:22
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, those drow who pushed the tanarukka and duergar out of Menzoberranzan may have a place on that list.
Andzrel Baenre (Weapon Master of House Baenre, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) and Zal'therra Baenre (Priestess and Cousin of Triel, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) may be two of them.
You mean the army that was nearly annihilated against the Duergar in Condemnation?
I'd say that much like other drow armies, it is too riven by internal politics and paranoia to ever be a reliable military force. Added to that, Andzrel Baenre does not appear to have any strategic vision, being little more than a tactical commander under a council of short-sighted megalomaniacs who are incapable of cooperation.
Individually, drow elves are fearsome fighters. In small units, even, they are capable of startling coordination learned by long practice. In large formation, they are nearly unmanagable and, in fact, usually end up working at cross purposes.
And let's not forget that both Andzrel and Zal'therra are lesser kin, cousins or descendents of far mighter drow. And that those mightier drow were still not capable enough as military leaders to subdue one small dwarven kingdom. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 12:38:43
Well, those drow who pushed the tanarukka and duergar out of Menzoberranzan may have a place on that list.
Andzrel Baenre (Weapon Master of House Baenre, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) and Zal'therra Baenre (Priestess and Cousin of Triel, Cmdr. Of the Army of the Black Spider) may be two of them.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 11:16:32
Interesting topic.
Of the ones we have seen in the Realms, several named here have displayed military ability.
Seiveril Miritar was an inexperienced general, and as such, he wasn't great at it from the start. But we mustn't forget that he was an experienced and capable leader and administrator, despite his lack of military command experience. He forged a cohesive army and high command out of what was essentially an ad hoc grouping of people united mostly by religion.
I'd say that his accomplishment was very impressive and the fact that he was aided by brilliant subordinates does not detract from it. Selecting a good general staff is a very important facet of functioning well in a high command.
And let's not forget what didn't happen in his army. Political and racial divides did not interfere with the purity of purpose and unity of the elven host, despite it being composed of troops from nearly all major subraces and more than one elven realm. That alone is an accomplishment that marks Seveiril as a truly remarkable leader.
Bruenor Battlehammer, as we see him, is both a great king and a great military leader. He's beloved by his people, due to his personal charm (which for a dwarf is considerable), courage and evident concern for the good of his subjects. He's stubborn and resilient, but still able to delegate responsibility and even change his plans on the basis of expert advice.
Few real world military leaders combine his strategic clarity of vision, tactical innovation and effortless administrative genius. His dwarven troops are so disciplined and organised that they literally never suffer from supply problems, low morale or indecision. Small unit commanders are capable of acting on their own and apparently always understand the strategic goals of the campaign.
While it's easy to write that off as Bruenor's good luck in commanding such brilliant troops, let's keep in mind that his troops mostly consist of dwarves that he trained and organised. The quality of Mitril Hall's military must be attributed to the ones responsible for their formation and training, namely Bruenor and his chosen generals. And speaking of his generals, their quality also reflects positively upon him as a leader.
His weaknesses are mostly in areas not traditionally considered a part of military command. He's a poor diplomat, never having learned to lie effectively, and that means he's often reduced to fighting without effective allies. He's also not as far-travelled and cosmopolitian as other military leaders, which means that he might be vulnerable to exotic troop types and new tactics.
Alusair Nacacia Obarskyr of Cormyr is described by Azoun IV (himself a legendary warrior) as the best battlemaster in the realm. While I'm not certain events bear that out, she certainly does demonstrate quick-thinking under pressure, courage and determination in many places.
She's brave to the point of recklessness and inspires that some courage in her troops. She has a comprehensive formal education in military science second only to high-ranking priests of the Red Knight, an advantage not to be overlooked when it comes to confronting things outside her direct experience. Her experience, meanwhile, is vast. She's been fighting in one form or another for most of her adult life and she's generally been very successful. She understands the use of magic in warfare, is very good at utilising her own War Wizards against the enemy and at coordinating the movements of seperated formations.
All in all, Alusair at least has the potential to function as a truly marvellous Lord High Marshal of Cormyr. The fact that the army she'd be leading is one of the most professional in the Realms and has recently been tested in a bloody conflict under her command is another advantage she has. Were I a Sembian merchant lord or a Zhent warlord, I'd be very hesitant to draw the ire of the Steel Regent, despite the apparent weakness of the realm after the Devil Dragon War.
Weaknesses are mostly in her general staff. Caladnei appears to me far weaker than Vangerdahast and in a contest depending heavily on the mustering of War Wizards and magical might (such as agains the Shades), Cormyr is at a grave disadvantage.
Alusair is also poor at the more political aspects of the job, meaning that she has difficulty forging coalitions and working with disparate interests. That would weaken Cormyr if it came to a war (and it does, in truth, weaken in now in times of peace). Her father, while no diplomat by nature, had learned surprising tact during his long reign and it would take Alusair long indeed to match his skill at unifying under his command both proud nobles, prickly bureacrats, vulgar merchants and the vast number of Cormyr's other people.
Lady Kaitlin Tindall Bloodhawk was possessed by the Red Knight herself during the Time of Troubles and fought brilliantly in command of her mercenary band, the Company of the Red Falcon. However, it is diffucult to seperate the abilities of the mortal from that of the deity, which argues against elevating her immediately among the ranks of the greatest.
On the other hand, Lady Kaitlin was an experienced leader of men and she was chosen by the Goddess of Strategy and Tactics. And it's far from unlikely that the Red Knight favoured her with an increased understanding of warfare even after the episode. So she's at least a contender.
As for the Chosen, I do not believe I'd include them in any such write-up. Khelben is a geopolitical genius, but when it comes to military strategy and tactics, neither he nor Laeral distinguished themselves in the war for Everaska. For one thing, for god-powered archmages, they seem depressingly immobile and slow in their strategy.
One would think that some faster method was available to the learned Khelben than marching the army all the way. For months, during which they strategic situation got steadily worse and Khelben was unavailable for a lot of vital tasks. Teleporting a few each day would probably have been faster, let alone using just some of the many portals Khelben is supposed to know about. For crying out loud, he uses a portal as his larder!
Alustriel made so many basic mistakes in the fight for Mithril Hall that it's a miracle she still manages to cling to rule. It is clear that she should stick to politics and avoid anything resembling warfare. It may be that her sons are better generals, but that begs the question why at least one of them (since there isn't any shortage of sons) was not present at a battle where the ruler of Silverymoon almost died.
The Simbul is so temperemental and reckless that only the famously incompetent Red Wizards could have failed to defeat her. Yes, she is enormously personally powerful, but she uses that power in reckless and thoughtless ways that leave one stunned. If the Red Wizards could once, just once, muster enough self-control to carry out a coordinated plan without infighting, they'd find it easy enough to goad her into a situation where she could easily be overwhelmed by superior numbers. They'd take brutal losses, but they'd win.
In any Realmslore of which I'm aware, Dove and Storm do not lead more than small guerilla units. While they might do so with flair and elan, they do not seem to have a strategic goal in mind. Shadowdale remains independent, yes, but in many ways the constant low-grade warfare with the Zhents has a human cost far beyond that which might be endengered by coming to a livable arrangement in which Shadowdale retains home rule, but gives the Zhents trade concessions and allows them overall control.
And if that's unacceptable, it remains for any commanders in Shadowdale to find an acceptable alternative and work toward it*. Resistance, without a specific goal beyond killing the enemy, is nothing but needless violence. Brilliant tactical success in the pursuit of no strategic goal is about as useful as failure.
And saying that Dove and Storm cannot be blamed for the political situation in the Dales is disingenius. The entire raison d'etre of the Harpers is to politically manipulate events in service of the Balance. The Balance is not served by having Cormyr, Sembia, Hillsfar and Zhentil Keep fight over the Dales until nothing remains of them but charred ruins and one state emerges more powerful than the rest.
I do not recall Quilé having been tested as a military commander and while Elminster undoubtedly has, such events have occured out of our sight. As such, I cannot rate them as generals or leaders.
*A kingdom of the Dales, allied with Cormyr and Sembia, would be such an alternative. If necessary, such a state could be a federal state with an organisation similar to the Swiss Cantons, but a divided and weak system like prevails today is basically an invitation for the surrounding states to gobble the Dales up one-by-one. |
| Chataro |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 14:43:36
I don't think we can settle the issue for best commander but I can definately think of the worst. Look among the demon and devils for your answer!!!!
Milleniums and eons of incessant warfare and not even a single minute where one side seemed on the verge of total victory? Those leaders must be sure losers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 21:42:45
Gareth Dragonsbane |
| khorne |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 20:00:27
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Mr. Greenwood has indicated that Chosen are insane because of long life, as such it strikes me that none of the living or undead Chosen would be the best tactical or startigical milatary leaders "living" at current time. This does not mean they can win a battle drawing on knowledge, but long range goals are a matter that might be beyound an insane character ability. Im my opinion they should be removed from any consideration for the "best military commanders of today's Faeru".
There are different kinds of insanity. Besides, what do you define as insanity? Someone who has lived for over a thousand years could look upon the short-lived humans who mess things up regularly and conclude that THEY are the insane ones. |
| Aravine |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:15:03
I am! I mean, my character is! |
|
|
