| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| maurezen |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 08:29:39
I have just read the "Cormanthyr : Empire of Elves" book, and I saw there an entry about the hidden treasures of Windsong Tower. Having it read carefully revealed an amazing thing to me : the "Quess'Ar'Teranthvar" is nothing else than five (six, actually) of ten Nether Scrolls stolen from Netheril.
The question here is obvious: where are other scrolls? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Azazel |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 09:15:26
I am also quite interested in the Nether Scrolls, the following are from different posts i made a while ago on the WotC forum regarding the second set of Nether Scrolls:
-2436 DR: An unknown thief returns seven of Netheril's remaining Nether Scrolls to the ancient ruins of the Iqua Tel-Quessir (Creator Races). Three of the Nether Scrolls are placed in the Hall of Mist beneath the Grandfather Tree, and two other scrolls are placed in the Crypt of Hssthak. The location of the two other scrolls remains unknown.
-1896 DR: Twenty-four of the remaining Nether Scrolls are stolen.
-664 DR: The remaining Nether Scrolls are stolen en route to Eileanar (Karsus' enclave).
About the -1896 DR theft:
In the year 1963 NY (-1896 DR) Netheril bore witness to an internal menace; citizens who had little aptitude or respect for magic. Nine men broke into the "Most Holy and Magical Chamber of Ioulaum the Demidivine", killing nine guards in the process and losing seven of thir numbers, to steal 24 parts of the Nether Scrolls. When the thieves escaped to the surface world, a manhunt began. The thieves, fearfull of the archwizard's retribution, pounded the priceless golden scrolls into indiscernable baubles. They then sold these gold nuggets, receiving about 260 gp in gold coins.
About the Nether Scrolls:
The Nether Scrolls were immune to all magical effects, including disintegration spells and other harmful magic. They could be hammered into unrecognizable mass, howerver, as was demonstrated a few times in Netheril's long history. Eventually, the magic of the Nether Scroll would recombine lost pieces of itself, but the time required for such a rebirth was long (it's unknown if it as reformed currently, but the Netherese never saw the scrolls reform themselves).
According to the above, those 24 stolen scrolls that have been pounded into gold nuggets have or will eventually reform themselves, i am not sure this is valid if they were smelted, although it does say that they can recombine lost pieces.
The 2 sets of Nether Scrolls were not entirely identical, one set looked much older and tarnished than the other. This might indicate that they were not created at the same time. On a sidenote, the set stolen by the elves of Cormanthyr was the newer-looking one.
This is what George Krashos wrote about the Nether Scrolls a while back:
Serpent Kingdoms states that the magical organisation known as the Ba'etith created them (p.97) in c. -30000 DR: note that this is my dating based on the timeline given on p.186 and the contents of p.97. What is interesting about this is that the Ba'etith was originally a sarrukh organisation. However, with the fall of the sarrukh empire of Isstosseffifil, the Ba'etith was in turn controlled by the other "Creator Races" - the batrachi and aearee - over the next several millenia. Again, see Serpent Kingdoms, p.97 for this. This source states that the Nether Scrolls were created over millenia and that they looked at the primitive magic employed by all races of that time - this could mean that the Nether Scrolls were created not only by the sarrukh, but also by the batrachi and the aearee through the vehicle of the Ba'etith. So, to say that they were created by the sarrukh alone is probably not quite right.
|
| Tathral |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 07:03:07
quote:
Have the sarrukh managed to find some of the scrolls? After all, they were the ones who created them in the first place.
Actually, the sarrukh were just one of three races (as opposed to my earlier statement that there were only two races involved. My apologies) that compiled a collection of human, and possibly other races', magic in several tomes. The secret organization of the Ba'etith comprised of "the most magically gifted among the sarrukh and their servitor races... consolidated and extrapolated the bounds of their newly found knowledge" to create the Nether scrolls "thousands of years after the fall of the Empires." This, along with the fact that the batrachi and aearee each contributed to the collection of lore that was to become the Nether Scrolls, raises an important point.
Presumably none of the surrakh knew about the Scales of the World Serpent; the organization that created them was secret, and the creation didn't happen until after the fall of the empires. Whether this means after the fall of the all three creator races involved in creation, or just the sarrukh, the point is moot. The sarrukh who knew about the Scrolls were few and far between. To me this implies that the sarrukh in the Realms are not any more likely to have one or more of the Nether Scrolls than any other powerful race. If one of the Ba'etith or knowledge of the groups existence was found by the sarrukh, they may be able to interpret and utilize it better than other races. That, however, is just my personal supposition. I can't recall any canon material that details the possession of a Nether Scroll in the hands of the recognized sarrukh nations. The sarrukh lich Hssthak does have two of the Scrolls in his tomb. The sarrukh kings of Oreme may also have some of the scrolls, as it was one of them that lead the Netherese arcanist to discover them in the first place. Aside from that, there was nothing I could find.
And Dair Targ, please read the previous posts in a thread before posting. All of your questions have previously been answered, with the possible exception of what LEoF stands for. LEoF means Lost Empires of Faerun, a source book in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
OFF TOPIC: BTW, does anyone know of a specific source that says the batrachi were the race responsible for the actual formation of the Scrolls? Im sure I saw it somewhere, and it is chronologically feasible for a few of the batrachi Baetith to have survived the thousand years of aearee rule so that they could include the races contribution in the artifacts. PM me with a response if you know please. And has anyone in Candlekeep penned an indepth history of the Nether Scrolls? |
| Dair Targ |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 14:13:37
Excuse my question, but if the highest spell's level is 9 now (in 3rd edition), what usable can be in these scrolls? And what spells/knowleges/etc. Nether scrolls are contains? Where I can read about it (or where I can take LEoF)? |
| khorne |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 16:37:21
Have the sarrukh managed to find some of the scrolls? After all, they were the ones who created them in the first place. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 02:10:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
from Magic of Faerūn, highlight by me
Shar studied the Weave and used her own energy in remote parts of the world to experiment on it, eventually coming to understand how it worked and supplicating its effects with her own subtle and dark creation. Eventually this experiment grew to encompass the entire globe, although none knew of its existence. This creation is the Shadow Weave, a dark and distorted copy of the true Weave that enhances the magic of shadows, enchantment, necromancy, and illusion. With the Shadow Weave, Shar hopes to draw evil-inclined spellcasters to her flock, especially since those are the kind of people who would avoid paying homage to the good-aligned Mystra anyway. While the Shadow Weave has existed for quite some time, only recently has it begun to spread rapidly and its power become known to many.
Mh, I probably need to reread my books once I can access them again... |
| Arivia |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 07:31:18
quote:
Originally posted by Tathral
quote:
Shadovar possessing Nether Scrolls, but I doubt they can cast the spells written in it since the Scrolls require Weave Magic.
It may be is logical to assume that the scrolls require Weave access. They were created during the First Flowering by races that we assume had access only to the Weave (at least in general, see Magic of Faerun quote by Kajehase), there are a couple factors you should consider before you confine the scrolls to Weave-only artifacts. First, they were created as an extrapolation of arcane magic's potential into infinity. While this in and of itself doesn't guarantee Shadow Weave user benefit from these scrolls, my second point is that their benefits are described as being for arcane spellcasters (I believe. Sorcerers might gain something from them, but I can't remember).
Sorcerers do cast arcane spells-they do gain the benefits.
quote:
(off topic: does that include spells altered by metamagic and stored in spell slots above the tenth level? Blackcloak has some of these slots, and they are mentioned in ELH)
No, as they are not technically 10th level spells in 3.5 rules or in the FR worldview. See Mystra's Ban in LEoF. |
| Tathral |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 07:03:39
quote:
Shadovar possessing Nether Scrolls, but I doubt they can cast the spells written in it since the Scrolls require Weave Magic.
It may be is logical to assume that the scrolls require Weave access. They were created during the First Flowering by races that we assume had access only to the Weave (at least in general, see Magic of Faerun quote by Kajehase), there are a couple factors you should consider before you confine the scrolls to Weave-only artifacts. First, they were created as an extrapolation of arcane magic's potential into infinity. While this in and of itself doesn't guarantee Shadow Weave user benefit from these scrolls, my second point is that their benefits are described as being for arcane spellcasters (I believe. Sorcerers might gain something from them, but I can't remember). There is, as far as I can find, any text precluding Shadow Weavers from benefiting from the scrolls. So, it looks like the extrapolation of magic either is applicable to the Shadow Weave in the same way your reflection is applicable to you, or that magic was not only extrapolated onward and upward in the Weave, but outwards from the Weave as well. This is pure speculation of course; we wont know the answer to this question until the Shadow Weave conflict is resolved. See Lost Empires of Faerun for the best description of the scrolls.
quote:
It is quite well known that Mystra forbids 10th level and higher spells(I seriously hate Mystra for this), so even if a Weave user stumbles on a Nether Scrol, wait, are all the Nether Scrolls 10th level or higher spells or below 10th level?
The Nether Scrolls are not spell scrolls. Ergo, the probably do not contain spells. Instead, they contain detailed explanations of the workings of magic, allowing someone to use it more efficiently, gain access to its deeper secrets, ect.
quote:
If they are above 10th level, can the mage cast it by following the arcane words in the Scroll?
Mystra forbade magic above the tenth level (off topic: does that include spells altered by metamagic and stored in spell slots above the tenth level? Blackcloak has some of these slots, and they are mentioned in ELH), so even if you study the entire collection of scrolls, you still wont be able to overcome the tenth level restriction. However, I believe that the "Return of the Archmage" trilogy explicitly states that the Shadow Weave allows the use of spells above the tenth level. This would conceivably allow a Shadow Weaver to develop spells with the Nether Scrolls as an aid in the manner of the Ancient Netherese.
quote:
Also, are the Nether Scrolls created by elven High Magic?
The Nether Scrolls were created by the second Creator Race (The name escapes me), and they predate elven arrival on Faerun by quite a bit. Since the Weave was still whole when the scrolls were created, and elven magic is costly, it's reasonable to infer that the Scales of the World Serpent (Nether Scrolls) were created with a high-level spell as opposed to the weaker elvish substitute. Just incase you were wondering, Elves had no hand in the creation of the scrolls; they have no claim on them. It was humans who played the greatest role in their creation. The theft of and subsequent domination of the scrolls by the elves is just another example of them usurping Humanity's inheritance.
quote:
...if so, does elven High Magic differ from the Weave Magic and not bound by the restrictions imposed on Weave Magic?
Read up on elven magic in the various source books, novels, and forum threads. It's still part of the Weave, and still subject to the limitations thereof.
quote:
If Shar did studied the Nether Scrolls, then it would be a good thing if she can create a 12th level spell for everyone to play with.
1) It would be a Shadow Weave spell. 2) It would probably be used in some way that was detrimental to Weave users, so not really a good thing, no.
|
| Kajehase |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 16:39:35
quote:
from Magic of Faerūn, highlight by me
Shar studied the Weave and used her own energy in remote parts of the world to experiment on it, eventually coming to understand how it worked and supplicating its effects with her own subtle and dark creation. Eventually this experiment grew to encompass the entire globe, although none knew of its existence. This creation is the Shadow Weave, a dark and distorted copy of the true Weave that enhances the magic of shadows, enchantment, necromancy, and illusion. With the Shadow Weave, Shar hopes to draw evil-inclined spellcasters to her flock, especially since those are the kind of people who would avoid paying homage to the good-aligned Mystra anyway. While the Shadow Weave has existed for quite some time, only recently has it begun to spread rapidly and its power become known to many.
|
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 12:43:02
Unless I'm completely off on my memory, part of that ripped divine essence became the shadow weave. Granted, Shar nurtured and formed it for a long while before she granted mortals access to it, but it was definitly created via that fight between Selūne and Shar. What one might argue is that the creation process took her a while, but thats about it.
However, even "a few hundred centuries" is hardly comparable to the thousands of years we are talking about here. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 11:49:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Considering the Shadow Weave was created at precisely the same moment as old Mystryl was, I highly doubt that. (see War of Light and Dark, FRCS)
You have a page reference for that? All the references I know of mention Shar taking centuries to create the Shadow Weave, after studying the regular Weave...
And his reference in the FRCS just mentions how Mystryl was made from Shar and Selune-it doesn't say anything about the Weave or the Shadow Weave... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 11:29:52
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Considering the Shadow Weave was created at precisely the same moment as old Mystryl was, I highly doubt that. (see War of Light and Dark, FRCS)
You have a page reference for that? All the references I know of mention Shar taking centuries to create the Shadow Weave, after studying the regular Weave... |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 10:10:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I wouldnt be surpised if Shade enclave had a few nor would I be suprised if Shar or Clergy had some to.
Shar may well have even studied some of the missing Nether Scrolls before she created the Shadow weave......
Considering the Shadow Weave was created at precisely the same moment as old Mystryl was, I highly doubt that. (see War of Light and Dark, FRCS) |
| Arivia |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 10:09:23
quote:
Originally posted by maurezen
And "Netheril : Empire of Magic" says thet there wer 2 sets of 50 scrolls. Where is the truth?
2 sets of 50, and the tree is one set. Newer stuff overrides older stuff, and that's what LEoF says. |
| maurezen |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 09:11:41
And "Netheril : Empire of Magic" says thet there wer 2 sets of 50 scrolls. Where is the truth? |
| maurezen |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 08:49:02
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
The Quess'ar'Teranthvar is still intact and still watched over by its guardian (and maybe more). Yes, the physical shell that was Windsong Tower has long since fallen. All that means is that there's no direct physical connection to the portal that (should you prove worthy) might provide access to the extradimensional space wherein the golden tree that was once a full set of Nether Scrolls abides.....
Was it? "The Arcane Age: Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves" says that it wasn't full, but there were six of them (and four more possibly still in existence). Where the truth is? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 03:58:06
The Quess'ar'Teranthvar is still intact and still watched over by its guardian (and maybe more). Yes, the physical shell that was Windsong Tower has long since fallen. All that means is that there's no direct physical connection to the portal that (should you prove worthy) might provide access to the extradimensional space wherein the golden tree that was once a full set of Nether Scrolls abides..... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:36:44
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
No offense, but what's your source for the tower being intact post-Fall? Also, don't you think they'd move it with the raging hordes running through the streets?
Cormanthyr. Steven Schend. The Ruins of Myth Drannor box set. And evidently Lost Empires. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:33:31
The Nether Scrolls are in LEoF? Huh. Well, now I really have to track that book down. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:29:02
quote:
Originally posted by Magus Rages
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I wouldnt be surpised if Shade enclave had a few nor would I be suprised if Shar or Clergy had some to.
Shar may well have even studied some of the missing Nether Scrolls before she created the Shadow weave......
Shadovar possessing Nether Scrolls, but I doubt they can cast the spells written in it since the Scrolls require Weave Magic.
It is quite well known that Mystra forbids 10th level and higher spells(I seriously hate Mystra for this), so even if a Weave user stumbles on a Nether Scroll, wait, are all the Nether Scrolls 10th level or higher spells or below 10th level? If they are above 10th level, can the mage cast it by following the arcane words in the Scroll? Also, are the Nether Scrolls created by elven High Magic?, if so, does elven High Magic differ from the Weave Magic and not bound by the restrictions imposed on Weave Magic?
If Shar did studied the Nether Scrolls, then it would be a good thing if she can create a 12th level spell for everyone to play with.
Reading one Nether scroll automaticly gives a character 1 free level in an Arcane spell casting class (ie it functions like a Libran of Silver magic) in addition of you can track down a complete "chapter" and read them then you get more stuff. There are 5 seperate chapters making up the Nether scrolls |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:25:04
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
No offense, but what's your source for the tower being intact post-Fall? Also, don't you think they'd move it with the raging hordes running through the streets?
See the Nether Scrools write up in LEOF |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:13:17
No offense, but what's your source for the tower being intact post-Fall? Also, don't you think they'd move it with the raging hordes running through the streets? |
| Magus Rages |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:07:44
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I wouldnt be surpised if Shade enclave had a few nor would I be suprised if Shar or Clergy had some to.
Shar may well have even studied some of the missing Nether Scrolls before she created the Shadow weave......
Shadovar possessing Nether Scrolls, but I doubt they can cast the spells written in it since the Scrolls require Weave Magic.
It is quite well known that Mystra forbids 10th level and higher spells(I seriously hate Mystra for this), so even if a Weave user stumbles on a Nether Scroll, wait, are all the Nether Scrolls 10th level or higher spells or below 10th level? If they are above 10th level, can the mage cast it by following the arcane words in the Scroll? Also, are the Nether Scrolls created by elven High Magic?, if so, does elven High Magic differ from the Weave Magic and not bound by the restrictions imposed on Weave Magic?
If Shar did studied the Nether Scrolls, then it would be a good thing if she can create a 12th level spell for everyone to play with. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 00:10:41
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Barring the fact that Windsong Tower should be a smoking ruin, its remaining members would *certainly* have evacuated such a precious item, even if it meant waking up the sleeping High Mage to do it.
But where would they send it? Fall of Myth Drannor says that magic was evacuated to either Silverymoon or Ascalhorn. Silverymoon has been covered many times, I'm pretty sure it's not there. Likewise, if the demons of Hellgate Keep had it, the North would have known long before now.
So where did they send it? Evermeet seems the likeliest choice, as they were rapidly running out of major elven empires (Eaerlann being the last) on Faerun.
In case you hadn't noticed, this is a topic I enjoy speculating on.
It's still in Windsong, as I said since not all of that tower, nor the deminsional space, was destroyed. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 23:41:51
I wouldnt be surpised if Shade enclave had a few nor would I be suprised if Shar or Clergy had some to.
Shar may well have even studied some of the missing Nether Scrolls before she created the Shadow weave...... |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 23:33:31
Barring the fact that Windsong Tower should be a smoking ruin, its remaining members would *certainly* have evacuated such a precious item, even if it meant waking up the sleeping High Mage to do it.
But where would they send it? Fall of Myth Drannor says that magic was evacuated to either Silverymoon or Ascalhorn. Silverymoon has been covered many times, I'm pretty sure it's not there. Likewise, if the demons of Hellgate Keep had it, the North would have known long before now.
So where did they send it? Evermeet seems the likeliest choice, as they were rapidly running out of major elven empires (Eaerlann being the last) on Faerun.
In case you hadn't noticed, this is a topic I enjoy speculating on. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 23:23:14
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
There used to be two complete sets. One complete set was stolen by the elves and turned into the Quess'Ar'Teranthvar. Its location after the fall of Myth Drannor is unknown (as far as I know, they haven't updated it in 3e, have they?).
It should still be in Windsong Tower. :) |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 23:18:00
There used to be two complete sets. One complete set was stolen by the elves and turned into the Quess'Ar'Teranthvar. Its location after the fall of Myth Drannor is unknown (as far as I know, they haven't updated it in 3e, have they?).
The other set was lost piecemeal throughout Netheril's history. Some were stolen, some destroyed, and some just plain misplaced. So you're most likely to have them pop up in ones and twos instead of ten or twenty, and the excellent scribes have already given examples.
However, there's still at least half a set that's completely unaccounted for in the past thousand years or so. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 17:51:55
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
The Nether Scroll novel also answers some of these. :) The North box set does as well and the North is one of the free downloads.
And the free downloads can be found on the Wizards downloads page.  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 17:25:08
The Nether Scroll novel also answers some of these. :) The North box set does as well and the North is one of the free downloads. |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 14:48:17
is there any mention of the other scroll sets? |
|
|
