| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 02:35:12
Having had a look at the map on pages 48-49 of LEOF, The poster map that came with the FRC and Underwater map of the Sea of Fallen stars accessory Im a little confused on how the Elves managed to Keep Jhaamdath submerged.
Presumably before Jhaamadaths destruction the lands it occupied where above sea level (or at the least the coastline would have had have been) so why are its ruins drowned?
Ok the elves Create a Tidal wave with High Magic which is presumably made up of water from the sea of Fallen stars the wave crashes over the coastline and destroys or at least ruins the 12 cities of Jhaamadath, the wave would have then retreated in order to refill the sea of Fallen stars where the water was taken from. So most of the water should have gone back to sea sure the water would have pooled in areas that where lower than the coastline but most of the land would have resurfaced. To my knowledge there have only been 3 Tidal waves in Faerun history
1) The Elven High Magic Tidal wave that drowned Jhaamadath
2) The tidal wave that Iniarv used to created The Mere of Dead Men
3) The Tidal wave that swamped Alaor and Bezantur in 1369
Why didnt the Elves Tidal wave create a "Mere" like the Mere of Dead Men?
The only reason I can see why Jhaamdath would remain flooded is if Jhaamdath existed in a basin lower than its coastline and the water from the Tidal wave crashed over the coastline and Waterfalled down the other side into the basin.
However this creates a problem if thats the case because if this did happan then there should be land bridge today between Chondath and Turmish where Jhaamdaths coastline existed.
The only other option is that since Jhaamdaths destruction the Sea of Fallen Stars water level has risen higher than Jhaamdaths old coast line?
Any ideas Eric, the 2 Eds, George, and Steve?
Also I noticed that in Sea of Fallen Stars the sea floor of the area where Jhaamdath existed is not flat. The map in LEOF shows Jhaamdath existing on a flat plain. In SOFS the map shows a large underwater gorge that would probably be around the same size as the Scar in Scardale where Jhaamdath would have existed.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 21:18:08
[/quote]
I didn't say I was working on any FR sourcebooks. 
But the Jhaamdath stuff isn't for game design; a certain green-colored rod-shaped symbol of rulership just might be linked to the place somehow. 
Thomas
[/quote]
I didn't get the reference. I'm curious as to what that green rod is. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 03:39:51
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think this is from FR10 Old Empires which notes Untheric expansion in the area which we now know (as of EotSS) was part of Jhaamdath. I like the idea of a conflict with Unther as it fleshes out more of Jhaamdath's interaction with the places around it. Maybe Ed can have a play with this and massage it into his timeline.
I think this a good development as there was some criticism of Jhaamdath existing in a 'vacuum' for a very long period following its conflict with Mir/Calimshan and culminating in the war with Nikerymath.
-- George Krashos
Thanks George
*Adds a few more things to the Timeline* |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 01:03:05
I think this is from FR10 Old Empires which notes Untheric expansion in the area which we now know (as of EotSS) was part of Jhaamdath. I like the idea of a conflict with Unther as it fleshes out more of Jhaamdath's interaction with the places around it. Maybe Ed can have a play with this and massage it into his timeline.
I think this a good development as there was some criticism of Jhaamdath existing in a 'vacuum' for a very long period following its conflict with Mir/Calimshan and culminating in the war with Nikerymath.
-- George Krashos
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 09:06:13
In Races of Faerun under Human Chondathan it says that Jhaamdath fell under the sway of Unther between -1500 and -1069.
However neither the God Kings of the east and Imperial Time Timelines in LEOF mention Unther going into Jhaamdath (It does say they went into modern day Aglarond around 1500)nor is it mentioned in Ed Bonnys expanded Jhaamdath timeline
Is ROF still correct?
If Jhaamdath did fall under Unthers sway was it a miltary occupation of the Twleve cities or was Jhaamdath more a vassal of Unther during that time.
Outside of ROF is there other published material on this conflict? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Feb 2005 : 17:18:16
The Battle of Singing Arrows, that's what I was thinking of... I need to look into that one. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Feb 2005 : 15:45:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im suprised that there isnt a larger Anti Elf faction in most of non Elven Kingdoms. I wouldnt be suprised if Sembia's dislike/hatred of elves doesnt spurn from the Elves destruction of Jhaamdath.
I thought it was because the elves had forcibly halted Sembia's expansion...
Perhaps they were both simply smaller incidents in a much larger and longer lasting human/elven conflict.
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| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 24 Feb 2005 : 20:45:44
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
You know after reading all that Youve got to think that the Elves had alot of cheek saying the Netherese where iresponsiable, when you look at some of the stuff the elves pulled the Netherese stuff pales in comparision.
All goes back to perspective. I can easily see how the elves that destroyed Jhaamdath could feel entirely justified in their actions. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 22:40:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im suprised that there isnt a larger Anti Elf faction in most of non Elven Kingdoms. I wouldnt be suprised if Sembia's dislike/hatred of elves doesnt spurn from the Elves destruction of Jhaamdath.
I thought it was because the elves had forcibly halted Sembia's expansion... |
| Lysander |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 16:34:51
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I thought it may have also have been the Emerald Enclave (Which I imagine will appear in "Champions of Good")
 Champions, yes, but at least I've alwasy read their press, I don't know if I could call the Enclave a 'good' organization.
Though, that might have something to do with that I see them as antagonists to be overcome.  |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 14:22:18
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Has anyone noticed that Elven High Magic is often portrayed as something akin to waging nuclear war?
The Destruction of Tintageer
The Sundering
Jhaamdath
The Descent of the Drow
The Dark Disaster of Miyeritar
In each case above there seems to have been terrible repercusions for not only the target but often the casters, with "fallout" harming unintended victims of the spells.
I am surprised this hasn't spawned more of an anti-war movement among the elves, or some kind of cold war, or high magic arms race.
But then again, maybe it has and it just hasn't been written much about yet. I am curious about what the sociological impact has been on the elves in the aftermath of using such devastating magic with such far-reaching, unintended, ill effects.
Im suprised that there isnt a larger Anti Elf faction in most of non Elven Kingdoms. I wouldnt be suprised if Sembia's dislike/hatred of elves doesnt spurn from the Elves destruction of Jhaamdath.
You know after reading all that Youve got to think that the Elves had alot of cheek saying the Netherese where iresponsiable, when you look at some of the stuff the elves pulled the Netherese stuff pales in comparision.
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 13:55:02
Has anyone noticed that Elven High Magic is often portrayed as something akin to waging nuclear war?
The Destruction of Tintageer
The Sundering
Jhaamdath
The Descent of the Drow
The Dark Disaster of Miyeritar
In each case above there seems to have been terrible repercusions for not only the target but often the casters, with "fallout" harming unintended victims of the spells.
I am surprised this hasn't spawned more of an anti-war movement among the elves, or some kind of cold war, or high magic arms race.
But then again, maybe it has and it just hasn't been written much about yet. I am curious about what the sociological impact has been on the elves in the aftermath of using such devastating magic with such far-reaching, unintended, ill effects. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 06:32:00
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
PS: As noted above, it seems that very few buildings/places remain of Jhaamdath (more than likely even less than remain of Netheril), but there's probably treasures aplenty up among the mountains around the Reach even after all this time. Y'all better hope that the nasties in Surrkh don't have any of `em....
I was actually thinking more like Duegar
In Vilhon reach I found a reference to a mine called Daroush in Lilit Pass that apparently has seen alot of Duegar activity lately.
The nearest Duegar city is Dunspeirrin a city renown for its Psionic users (including the Dwarven Goddess Deep Dueera) not much further away we have the Mind Flayer city of Oryndoll... I think I can fairly safely say where alot of Jhaamdaths Psionic items went! |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 06:03:32
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M. Reid
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
*Gets sly look*
Um Thomas how many FR source books are you working on...?
We now know your working on Champions of "Good".... Are you working a regional source book to?..... Maybe on the Vilhon reach?
I didn't say I was working on any FR sourcebooks.
But the Jhaamdath stuff isn't for game design; a certain green-colored rod-shaped symbol of rulership just might be linked to the place somehow.
Thomas
Ah ok
I thought it may have also have been the Emerald Enclave (Which I imagine will appear in "Champions of Good") |
| Ty |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 22:05:39
The Great Gazoo?!?! My players have been questing for that for ages... Now you go and give them hints. 
Seriously though, when we're talking Jhaamdath, do we have ideas as to how far their primary culture had spread or was it limited to the geographic region of the 12 Cities? I don't have LoeF quite yet so... 
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| Steven Schend |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 20:21:43
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M. Reid
But the Jhaamdath stuff isn't for game design; a certain green-colored rod-shaped symbol of rulership just might be linked to the place somehow.
Thomas
The Great Gazoo is from Jhaamdath? 
Steven
Who doesn't know why he's suddenly thinking of old Flintstone cartoons but there it is......
PS: As noted above, it seems that very few buildings/places remain of Jhaamdath (more than likely even less than remain of Netheril), but there's probably treasures aplenty up among the mountains around the Reach even after all this time. Y'all better hope that the nasties in Surrkh don't have any of `em....
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| Thomas M. Reid |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 15:19:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
*Gets sly look*
Um Thomas how many FR source books are you working on...?
We now know your working on Champions of "Good".... Are you working a regional source book to?..... Maybe on the Vilhon reach?
I didn't say I was working on any FR sourcebooks.
But the Jhaamdath stuff isn't for game design; a certain green-colored rod-shaped symbol of rulership just might be linked to the place somehow.
Thomas |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 01:49:09
Any ideas how prevelant Psionic Talents where in Jhaamdath?
What percentage of the population had psionic powers? |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 01:37:41
*Gets sly look*
Um Thomas how many FR source books are you working on...?
We now know your working on Champions of "Good".... Are you working a regional source book to?..... Maybe on the Vilhon reach?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2005 : 22:57:29
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Hope this clears up more rather than confuses. As it is, my intentions and ideas in the background can be used if desired, but they're not canon any longer. Just what I meant to say if we never had page limitations.
Now see, this is what I really like about this forum. Not only do we discuss Realmslore, we get to find out the intent behind certain bits of lore... So we have the flavor, and we know why it's there... That just adds to it. 
Thank you for sharing that with us, Steven. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 16 Feb 2005 : 22:42:19
As I recall, the 'history problem' arose out of a few broad, sweeping statements Ed had previously made in a few 1E and 2E products re the colonisation of the northern Inner Sea lands, Sembia and the Dalelands from the lands of the Vilhon Reach (he noted that this region would periodically suffer population booms and overcrowding leading to people heading north to frontier lands around the Inner Sea). All these references (such as the one about the first Dalesmen crossing the Reach in c. -200 DR) seemed to point to old and established human settlement of the Vilhon.
The problem was that the other sources that gave specifics (such as the "Vilhon Reach" accessory) had Chondath and Turmish founded AFTER this wave of colonisation. Obviously, there had to have been an advanced human civilization in the region prior to the material presented in the "Vilhon Reach" accessory and other places - so Steven created and presented us with Jhaamdath (whilst cleverly linking this nation with the Calishite lands to the west in terms of wars and conflicts over territorial expansion).
It also conveniently gave us another 'lost empire' to play with. All worked out very well, IMHO.
-- George Krashos
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| Lysander |
Posted - 16 Feb 2005 : 18:34:07
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Apologies for the hyperbole of "mile-high" waves and all that jazz.
Here was my intent in creating Jhaamdath 8 years ago and destroying it at the same time.
A) We needed the historical precedents to establish a number of things re: Chondath and fix a few historical bugaboos. (No, I don't remember what they were at this point, but neither Eric nor George would have let me do it if it'd cause more headaches.)
...
Hope this clears up more rather than confuses. As it is, my intentions and ideas in the background can be used if desired, but they're not canon any longer. Just what I meant to say if we never had page limitations.
And Thomas, I look forward to seeing what you do with that area. Drop me a line if you need any more obscure or hidden info on that area.
Steven
LOL... Since I haven't looked at the Chondathan history since I put into statis my historical campaign, I'm looking forward to seeing if this clears up any of the oddities I remember from my looking around. (Though, if Eric or George remember any of the specifics of what you mean, I'd be grateful for the heads-up ) |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 16 Feb 2005 : 17:51:29
Apologies for the hyperbole of "mile-high" waves and all that jazz.
Here was my intent in creating Jhaamdath 8 years ago and destroying it at the same time.
A) We needed the historical precedents to establish a number of things re: Chondath and fix a few historical bugaboos. (No, I don't remember what they were at this point, but neither Eric nor George would have let me do it if it'd cause more headaches.)
B) I wanted to put some elven high magic on-stage other than mythal building, and figured the elves of that area had sufficient cause to be rather peeved enough to do something drastic.
C) The high mages' intent on this ritual was to eradicate Jhaamdath and any evidence of its existence from the area. They chose the form of a massive wave, and while I regret calling it a mile-high wave, it wasn't simply a wall of water. It's High Magic, after all--think of the wave almost akin to turning that body of water into a gargantuan water elemental whose task was to knock down any buildings and/or people it could find. It still moves and acts like a wave for the most part, but there were other factors. (Space considerations prevented this from ever getting detailed, so take it with a grain of salt now, as it's not quite canon any longer.) Needless to say, the magic ingrained in the waters were enough that not even settlements quite a ways up the slopes were safe--unless the elves knew nothing about them (which leaves a number of places spared).
D) The elven high mages set up the magic to mitigate any peripheral impact (i.e. the Year of Furious Waves would have been incalculably worse in the SOFS if they'd not mitigated the damage and kept it penned in around the Reach). The waves and after-shocks and whatnot that occurred after the intial strike were kept in that general area, and secondary waves aided the geographic changes and altering the landscape.
Hope this clears up more rather than confuses. As it is, my intentions and ideas in the background can be used if desired, but they're not canon any longer. Just what I meant to say if we never had page limitations.
And Thomas, I look forward to seeing what you do with that area. Drop me a line if you need any more obscure or hidden info on that area.
Steven |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 16 Feb 2005 : 03:54:52
quote:
Originally posted by edbonny
When writing about Jhaamdath, it was apparent that very little survived intact. While this dearth of surviving anything makes for great mystery, it seemed that there just had to be something more that survived than just a distant graveyard (Dordrien Crypt from City of the Spider-Queen). There are two areas that offer the promise of learning perhaps a little more about the Jhaamdathan Empire. One is an enigma yet to be fully understood - a "ghost city" that appears every few deacades floating above the sea. The other was the Jhaamdath port city of Jhouram, built among a hilly region along the coast. When the wave came, the hills shielded a few sections of the city protecting them from being completely demolished. The city sections lie submerged mostly intact.
It is unknown how much of this made it into print. Come on Thursday! I am getting my copy then!
- Ed
Speaking of Jhouram
Where is it?
Ok found it Silvanus eyes are Ilighon and Wavecrest
So Im guess 10 miles south of the eyes would put Jhouram somewhere in the water bewteen the eyes and Ixinos? |
| edbonny |
Posted - 15 Feb 2005 : 15:00:48
When writing about Jhaamdath, it was apparent that very little survived intact. While this dearth of surviving anything makes for great mystery, it seemed that there just had to be something more that survived than just a distant graveyard (Dordrien Crypt from City of the Spider-Queen). There are two areas that offer the promise of learning perhaps a little more about the Jhaamdathan Empire. One is an enigma yet to be fully understood - a "ghost city" that appears every few deacades floating above the sea. The other was the Jhaamdath port city of Jhouram, built among a hilly region along the coast. When the wave came, the hills shielded a few sections of the city protecting them from being completely demolished. The city sections lie submerged mostly intact.
It is unknown how much of this made it into print. Come on Thursday! I am getting my copy then!
- Ed |
| Thomas M. Reid |
Posted - 15 Feb 2005 : 14:30:09
Well, I realize that a 5,280-ft. wave is a little hard to swallow (no pun intended) -- a lot of coastal mountain peaks don't even reach that high -- but I didn't think I'd dreamed it up, so I did a quick search and came up with the following (Sea of Fallen Stars, pg 21):
"Elves speak of Jhaamdath as a great despoiler of the nearby forests known to them as Nikerymath. It was this abuse of the forest and the concurrent extirpation of the elves therein that caused the remaining High Mages to summon a great tidal wave in the Year of Furious Waves (-255 DR) to scour the shores of the inlet and wipe the Twelve Cities off the face of Faerûn. The wave widened the basin and made it into the Vilhon Reach of today.
With the destruction of Jhaamdath, the elven High Mages above unknowingly shattered the elven capital of Coryselmal beneath the waters at the mouth of the inlet, ending the rule of elves in Serôs. Still more abuse was to come, as the once numerous small undersea villages and farms within the Selmal Basin (as the undersea dwellers called the Reach) vanished under the rain of debris picked up by the wave or dragged back into the basin by the backwash of the crashing wave. Still, ever since the fall of Jhaamdath, the only folk who have built more than remote outposts and hidden enclaves are koalinth. The elves abandoned the ruined basin, as the pearly towers that characterized this region lay shattered beneath the heavy green marble debris dragged down from the coastal cities above.
Exactly what can be discovered in these waters is up to DMs. Much potential treasure is here from either the elven ruins or the Twelve Cities (and whatever may have washed down out of the mountains when a mile-high wave crashed above some lower peaks). DMs do need to remember are that most Inner Sea creatures can’t breathe both the saltwater of the sea and freshwater, which is west of Arrabar. Koalinth rule these waters with a fierce eye, as they too explore the ruins for riches."
So there's both the reference to the wave's height and the notion of the Twelve Cities being dragged down off the coast rather than simply sinking. Also, from the FR mailing list, some notes Ed wrote up (Sat, April 1, 2000, posted by Kimberly Moser):
"JHAAMDATH
Jhaamdath is entirely drowned in the Vilhon Reach -- and deeply buried, too, under tons of rock hurled atop it by the tidal wave and torn off the sides of the gulf by the scouring waves. Your PCs are facing months of digging, UNLESS they stumble across a gate that whisks them into 'pockets' (in effect, water-filled dungeon complexes) in the heart of the buried realm. One or more of these should probably contain cities -- because without buildings, what would form the 'roof' of a pocket that's stable enough to last this long? Of course, creatures within, long isolated from the wider world, could be your own variants of what's swimming around outside..."
So there you go. Not sure what you wish to make of it, esp. in light of the LEoF book, but that's where I got my information. A mile *IS* probably overdoing it, but I imagine one even a tenth that tall would have looked a mile high to someone in the city fatalistically watching it arrive. If you wanted, you could instead consider it a mile thick and 500 feet high, and the sheer quantity of water would still be enough to wipe Jhaamdath off the coast.
As for the notion that the wave would bounce back and forth and cause serious destruction all throughout the SoFS, well, the calendar does refer to it as the Year of Furious Waves. Yet if the elven High Mages had the power to generate such a wave, they would have the power to limit its effects elsewhere, and I think they certainly would want to do so. It's magic . . . anything can happen.
Thomas |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 15 Feb 2005 : 05:44:09
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
How sure are you about this "mile high" figure? Because it sounds like the comment of an unreliable witness, scholar or tale-teller that is embellishing somewhat.
A mile-high tidal wave would probably carry so much devastating weight and force as to scour the whole of that part of the continent clean and would very likely would not be stopped by a puny mountain range. Such a catastrophe would no doubt be remembered in history and legend as an apocalyptic flood of biblical proportions, far, far beyond the borders of Jhaamdath. Are there legends of such a flood in other cultures?
I am very skeptical of the mile-high figure myself... but that is not to say it isn't accurate, but it would surprise me if that figure was meant to be taken as literal truth.
A mile High wave would have been as big or bigger than the wave that appeared in the Hollywood Movie Deep Impact
A 1 mile high wave would have definately caused more destruction than Jhaamdath the Chondalwood would definately have copped it as the lands to the south of the reach are on the same contour as the coast line. Hell it may have even swamped all the land between the Reach on the Lake of Steam |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 15 Feb 2005 : 03:33:34
How sure are you about this "mile high" figure? Because it sounds like the comment of an unreliable witness, scholar or tale-teller that is embellishing somewhat.
A mile-high tidal wave would probably carry so much devastating weight and force as to scour the whole of that part of the continent clean and would very likely would not be stopped by a puny mountain range. Such a catastrophe would no doubt be remembered in history and legend as an apocalyptic flood of biblical proportions, far, far beyond the borders of Jhaamdath. Are there legends of such a flood in other cultures?
I am very skeptical of the mile-high figure myself... but that is not to say it isn't accurate, but it would surprise me if that figure was meant to be taken as literal truth. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2005 : 03:16:25
But if it was magic that raised the wave, then it could have been dissipated after hitting Jhaamdath. Kind of a very large surgical strike, if you will. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 15 Feb 2005 : 01:39:26
If the Tidal wave was really a mile high when it hit the Jhaamdath coast then much of Chondalwood should have been destroyed to.
There are several mountain ranges surrounding Jhaamdath amd when the Tidal wave hit them it would have rebounded across the reach into Chondalwood. There also would have been more destruction in other regions of the Sea of Fallen Stars both from an initial wave that would have gone east and from backwash from the wave that went west
To use the recent Boxing Day Quake/Tidal wave as as an example
When the earth quake went off it sent a tidal wave in 2 directions one went East and got Aceh and Thailand and the other went West and got Sri Lanka and the Southern coast of India. Also the Boxing Day Tidal wave went around the world 12 times (Although it obviously didnt inflict the damage)
Now if we use the Boxing Day Earth Quake as an example then there should have been another wave that went out east into the Sea of Fallen stars and done damage to regions all around the Sea
The damage should also have been much worse in the Sea of Fallen Stars than it was in the Indian Ocean. Why? because the wave couldnt burn itself out in the Sea of Fallen stars the sea is land locked so it could only go so far before smashing into something then rebounding with less power until it hits something else. -255 should have been a bad year for everyone who lived around the Sea of Fallen stars not just Jhaamdath
|
| Thomas M. Reid |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 23:41:00
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'd say it's up to each individual DM as to where and how deep the twelve Cities of Sword are. Of course, Ed Bonny may have more thoughts here ...
I can tell you that this recently became an issue for me, as well. From some old notes Ed made public a few years back (and some more he didn't but that I was privileged enough to get to read), I came away with a sense that Jhaamdath was in effect scoured from the shore. While not in any way making light of what happened recently in the Indian Ocean, the results of that catastrophe seem to bear out this notion. I read several accounts of people clinging for dear life to trees, sign posts, etc., as the water rushed back out to sea, dragging anything not anchored down along with it. And those waves were only tens of feet high. The crest the elves created was said to be a mile high (I think -- I'd have to recheck to be sure), so the force of that backwash would be formidable, indeed.
So I concluded that the Twelve Cities of Swords were actually washed down into the Reach, large chunks overturned, and most all of it buried under tons of additional rubble and mud. All that remains in the current timeframe are hidden pockets of space (whether air-filled or water-) where a handful of intact buildings hold up the "ceiling" of rubble overhead.
All of that said, I have no idea how it was handled in LEoF. I'm anxious to see (I may have amend my work because of it).
Thomas |
