| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 20:34:35
Is anyone aware if a Mythal type warding barrier has ever been produced by non-elven mages?
Could the Zhentarim, if they had dedicated resources to it, have created such a barrier around Darkhold, for example?
Afet |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Stranjer |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 19:50:03
quote:
-Correct (Though, The Lady Penitent Trilogy conveniently ignores this fact, or misrepresents what the Drow Magi are casting as Elven High Magic). Selu'Taar, when joining in circles, are able to cast Elven High Magic rituals because of (A) Their magical prowess, and (B) the communion of the various minds and spirits of the casters. Drow, in lacking that innate pseudo-spiritual connection to one another, like most other Elves have, cannot link their minds and spirits as Selu'Taar, and thus, cannot wield Elven High Magic. They can cast Epic Spells that look, act and smell like Elven High Magic spells, but they would not be using Elven High Magic itself.
Now, i havent been around for a while, as far as realmslore goes, so I may have came about after certain rulebooks had established facts. But I remember one of the most obvious references to being able to mentally link their minds and spirits was engaging in Reverie, which some drow(though not most) do actually still do. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Dec 2008 : 15:58:44
-See Netheril: Empire of Magic, which can be downloaded for free at the WotC website downloads section. It's more than worth it, and it's free. |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 10 Dec 2008 : 14:50:59
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I've already said my piece and don't see the point in arguing as I understand that people have fairly strong and fixed views on this topic. The only comment I'll make is that I never considered 'true dweomers' to be a part of the 2E Realms. As I recall, they were a very late development in the 2E rules set and I can't recall a reference to them in any 2E FR product. I know that Ed had mentioned them as did Eric in LEoF but I know that the two of them did it because they are "inclusionists", never wanting to stop a player/DM from using anything in the game for their FR campaigns. I'm happy to stand corrected on that though.
-- George Krashos
I don't know if or to what extent they included true dweomers in the 2E stuff, but as has been alluded to earlier in the thread, in the 3E material it says that Mystra no longer allows spells of greater than 10th level. So it implies that she did at some point, but I haven't read many 2E FR sourcebooks, so I don't know how well they were incorporated. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 04:53:21
The Realmslore discussing supernormal magic in terms of 10th-level spells, true dweomers, epic magic and so on is all so tied to passing rules ideas, so entwined with uncertain rules artefacts, that I don't take any of it very seriously when it draws these kinds of distinctions (similarly, I don't really believe 'clerics' and 'specialty priests' are distinct in the Realms). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 01:53:29
I've already said my piece and don't see the point in arguing as I understand that people have fairly strong and fixed views on this topic. The only comment I'll make is that I never considered 'true dweomers' to be a part of the 2E Realms. As I recall, they were a very late development in the 2E rules set and I can't recall a reference to them in any 2E FR product. I know that Ed had mentioned them as did Eric in LEoF but I know that the two of them did it because they are "inclusionists", never wanting to stop a player/DM from using anything in the game for their FR campaigns. I'm happy to stand corrected on that though.
-- George Krashos
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 23:13:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
If I recall, the canon explicitly states somewhere that this is why Elven High magic and the Netherese 10+ spells were effectively the same end result, but just with different methods of getting there. The Netherese used the 'shortcut' provided by the Nether Scrolls, and the Elven High mages (not all, mind you!) were using the 'correct' method of casting such powerful dweomers. The key point is that epic magic and elven high magic are methods of achieving the same end result (a wicked powerful spell).
-Epic Magic uses the power of the Weave and the individual(s) casting the spell to power it. True Dweomers (10th+ Level spells) use the power of the Weave to to power them. In the end, the results are more or less the same (as in, the effect caused by the spell), but there are two different routes to get to them. Epic Magic is less draining on the Weave, in that it uses both the power of the Weave and the power of the caster (via EXP costs). True Dweomers drew directly from the Weave, bypassing draining the caster.
-From Mystryl/Mystra's point of view, Epic Magic was the better of the two, because it was less taxing on her. From the caster's point of view, True Dweomers are better, because they are less taxing on them. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 23:09:43
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Given all of the above, I believe it makes *at least* as much sense to conclude that EHM and Epic Magic are two totally separate things.
-Elven High Magic is a specific "school"- for a lack of better words- of Epic Magic. Only Elves have access to Epic Spells that are denoted as 'Elven High Magic', thus only Elves can cast such magic. |
| Ifthir |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 02:33:48
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Given all of the above, I believe it makes *at least* as much sense to conclude that EHM and Epic Magic are two totally separate things.
I always thought "High Magic" was not just the epic part of the spell, but rather the entire elven ritual involved in it's casting. The only difference in the magic is the process itself.
If I recall, the canon explicitly states somewhere that this is why Elven High magic and the Netherese 10+ spells were effectively the same end result, but just with different methods of getting there. The Netherese used the 'shortcut' provided by the Nether Scrolls, and the Elven High mages (not all, mind you!) were using the 'correct' method of casting such powerful dweomers. The key point is that epic magic and elven high magic are methods of achieving the same end result (a wicked powerful spell).
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
why can't there be two or more forms of magic above 9th?
Because Mystra decided that the only spells that could be cast above 9th would be metamagicked lower level spells and Epic spells? |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 00:00:15
With respect, George, I disagree with that reasoning. We had a version of epic magic in 2e. It was called True Dweomers from DM's Option. Actually, they're really close to what epic magic turned into. But they aren't EHM, and EHM weren't true dweomers.
In 3e, they tried to shoe-horn everything under the epic magic heading. While I mostly respect your decision to try and include everything ever published, I think a line has to be drawn on really badly thought-out lore. Not just stuff you think could have been more elegant, but stuff that makes you sit back and go, "Wow, that person really has no idea what they're talking about." The infamous "Elves know epic magic, they call them mythals" comment fits here.
Given all of the above, I believe it makes *at least* as much sense to conclude that EHM and Epic Magic are two totally separate things. After all, we seem to have eight different ways of doing just about everything else (two Weaves, I don't even know how many "alternate magic" casters), why can't there be two or more forms of magic above 9th? Especially when it makes more sense than the glop that was published? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 21:54:56
Okay, for about the hundredth time - there is a difference between game mechanics "High Magic" (as showcased first in Elves of Evermeet and then in Cormanthyr) and lore "High Magic".
With the advent of the 3E rules (and even into the 4E rules with rituals), "High Magic" was a term of nomenclature, not a separate type of magic in and of itself. It was epic magic, practiced by the elves in their own unique, particular way. That didn't mean however that an elven "High Magic" epic spell couldn't be cast or replicated by other races/individuals. To consider such to be the case would be to argue that the elves created 'magic missile' first and so no other race/individual could ever cast that spell.
In that sense, Rich Baker's thread of lore he put into his Myth Drannor novel trilogy, namely that there were several "High Magic" elven, spellcasting traditions (i.e. the Vyshaan had their own particular method/type of epic spellcasting that they called "High Magic" as did the elves of Miyeritar, Keltormir, Shantel Othreier, et. al.) is a more accurate reflection of the diversity and 'parallel development' theme of magic that Ed has espoused since the inception of the Realms.
It's all epic magic if you are using 3E rules and its all rituals if you are using 4E rules. Only if you are still playing 2E can you state that "High Magic" is a separate, elves only system of spellcasting and magic and thereby pick holes in what has come after in the novels - novels which were written in the context of the 3E rules, I might add.
-- George Krashos
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 18:15:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
Hmm, I recall the "drow" having help...
Spoiler below:
Weren't the drow actually dark elves using the powers of the kiira found behind Kraanfhaor's door? Didn't they then become these very 'dark-elves' who were punished along with the allies they never sought?
Also, didn't the actual high magic have help from Khelben's group of casters who also restored the sharn and their city, as well as the scene that cost Qilue her life?
-This, however, does not take into account the problems in the first novel, Sacrifice of the Widow, where the Vhaeraunites use Epic Magic that is claimed to be Elven High Magic, to open a portal from the Material Plane to Eilistraee's Divine Domain, which Vhaeraun used to enter into her abode through. The individuals who were casting the spell were Vhaeraunite Drow. (That also presents a problem, in that Elven High Magic is not recorded on scrolls, as was the case in the novel, but in Selu'Kiira, but this is just added "icing on the cake", so to speak.
-The events in Storm of the Dead, in which Kiaransalee's name is erased from the tongues and minds of the people on Abeir-Toril was, again, and Ascendancy of the Last, in which those Drow of pure Miyeritaari blood, or belonging to the church of Eilistraee, cast by Drow Elves. This time, however, it was given a metaphorical asterisk, in that it was explained that the sentiences within the Selu'Kiira were the ones doing the actual casting. This explanation is sufficient, in that the essences within Selu'Kiira can possess the "host" that is wearing the gem. In most cases, this works like a Magic Jar effect, with the essence of the Selu'Kiira wiping the mind of the individual wearing it, and bringing him/her to safety (this is because, in most cases, those who decide to affix the gem to themselves are deemed unworthy to do so).
-But, after all of that, the long and the short of it is that the initial casting is problematic, in the notion that the Drow were casting Elven High Magic. It would be 100% possible and plausible for them to be casting Epic Magic, in that first instance, but not possible or plausible for them to be casting Elven High Magic (the specific 'path', or 'branch' of Epic Magic). |
| Ifthir |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:40:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
[quote]
-Correct (Though, The Lady Penitent Trilogy conveniently ignores this fact, or misrepresents what the Drow Magi are casting as Elven High Magic). Selu'Taar, when joining in circles, are able to cast Elven High Magic rituals because of (A) Their magical prowess, and (B) the communion of the various minds and spirits of the casters. Drow, in lacking that innate pseudo-spiritual connection to one another, like most other Elves have, cannot link their minds and spirits as Selu'Taar, and thus, cannot wield Elven High Magic. They can cast Epic Spells that look, act and smell like Elven High Magic spells, but they would not be using Elven High Magic itself.
Hmm, I recall the "drow" having help...
Spoiler below:
Weren't the drow actually dark elves using the powers of the kiira found behind Kraanfhaor's door? Didn't they then become these very 'dark-elves' who were punished along with the allies they never sought?
Also, didn't the actual high magic have help from Khelben's group of casters who also restored the sharn and their city, as well as the scene that cost Qilue her life? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 17:44:58
quote:
Originally posted by Magister Sunstrider
As for the Drow, I seem to remember something about them lacking the "connection" that allows them to cast Elven High Magic and must instead use the standard rules for epic spellcasting, but I'll be damned if I can remember where or when I read such a thing.
-Correct (Though, The Lady Penitent Trilogy conveniently ignores this fact, or misrepresents what the Drow Magi are casting as Elven High Magic). Selu'Taar, when joining in circles, are able to cast Elven High Magic rituals because of (A) Their magical prowess, and (B) the communion of the various minds and spirits of the casters. Drow, in lacking that innate pseudo-spiritual connection to one another, like most other Elves have, cannot link their minds and spirits as Selu'Taar, and thus, cannot wield Elven High Magic. They can cast Epic Spells that look, act and smell like Elven High Magic spells, but they would not be using Elven High Magic itself. |
| Magister Sunstrider |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 04:42:53
As has been noted, several cities of primarily non-elven population have raised Mythal style wardings such as Silverymoon. Thay on the other hand, is slightly different. The 3E FR Campaign Setting pg 207 stated:
"Inquisitive mages of other lands who dare to scry onto the plateau discover that overlapping wards - in many places now approaching the strength of the fabled mythals of old - overlie the land, effectively preventing spying from afar. Those who have reason to be wary of the Red Wizards greatly regret this divination "shield" and seek other ways to learn the Thayans' schemes."
To my knowledge, Thay's wardings have not evidenced any other of the properties of a Mythal such as antipathy or protection against evil spells that Silverymoon and Myth Glaurach are sourced to have.
As for the Drow, I seem to remember something about them lacking the "connection" that allows them to cast Elven High Magic and must instead use the standard rules for epic spellcasting, but I'll be damned if I can remember where or when I read such a thing.
|
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 17:32:20
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Suffice it to say that there is nothing about the 4e gods that I like. Not from a lore perspective, not from a playing perspective
IMO, this is on of the greatest errors they made in the 4e Conversion. They could have kept the 20ish gods that they put in the FRCG and then had DDi articles (or better, a supplement book, IMO) to detail the other deities. For me, the polytheistic faith of the Realms is part of what made it feel real to me. I am not saying that they shouldn't have killed off any gods, but the wholesale slaughter (or demotion, or merging; don't get me started on the merging of various human and racial deities) completely and utterly killed this feeling for me. It is one of the major reasons the 4e Realms feels nothing like the Realms to me. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 03:34:41
A lot of the deities that my players pray to are gone. They were either killed flat-out (Tyr, Helm, the entire drow pantheon minus Lloth, several of the dwarven deities), or had their godhood stripped away to become exarchs. Exarchs aren't gods, not even demigods. They don't form churches or have worshippers, they're just big targets for players to target.
There's none of the gravitas that the gods of the earlier editions possessed. Which isn't all that surprising, since we've had all of maybe six pages devoted to them. The problem is, the designers are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, they tell us that everything is new in the Realms, that all the old lore doesn't matter. But on the other, the god pages make no sense whatsoever without lore from the older editions. What's Mielikki's sphere of influence? What's her ethos? What is a priest of Mielikki supposed to do in the world? These are fundamental, basic questions needed to roleplay a priest, and there's no answer in 4e. The answer seems to be, well, go look in Faiths and Avatars. But it's been 100 years since Faiths and Avatars, and things have changed just a little. How has Mielikki changed? You can't have it both ways, and yet that's exactly what they seem to want.
And then there are the demihuman deities. My games have a very strong demihuman component, and the idea that all the demihuman deities (except Corellon and Moradin, who for some reason have enough traction to survive even this) are actually aspects of human deities is downright insulting. Actually, the rest of my group had some rather stronger words on the subject, but I don't swear, so I won't repeat them. You notice, however, that no human deities were revealed to be demihumans. No one said, "Oh, well, Mystra was actually Corellon all this time." Instead it's, "Oh, you know that deity whose worship you brought with you some thirty thousand years ago, back when humans were still trying to figure out what that jumpy warm yellow thing on a stick was? Well, she's actually a human deity, and has been all along."
I could go on, and on, but I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have. Suffice it to say that there is nothing about the 4e gods that I like. Not from a lore perspective, not from a playing perspective |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 01:42:56
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I don't like the god-smashing-togetherness. One of the things I've always liked about the Realms was the true polythesism, praying to twenty different gods in a day as you enter their sphere of control, and where there was respect between different faiths, both within and between races, because everyone knew all the other gods existed. 4e took most of that away.
How does 4E take all of this away "in game"?
-- George Krashos
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 01:40:51
I don't like the god-smashing-togetherness. One of the things I've always liked about the Realms was the true polythesism, praying to twenty different gods in a day as you enter their sphere of control, and where there was respect between different faiths, both within and between races, because everyone knew all the other gods existed. 4e took most of that away.
But getting back to the OP's question, yes, humans have created mythal-like fields, Silverymoon and Shoonach being two which spring easiest to mind. The definition I'm using is a single field of magic, spread over a large area (preferably a city), that provides multiple defenses/boons to those within it, and which can last for centuries. Note, however, that they're called "mythal-like," as in, not quite mythals. This is partly ironic since Silverymoon was Myth Drannor's sister-city, and one would think they'd be able to get enough High Mages around to raise a mythal (or use the 10th level version).
Other examples are the Herald's Holdfast and the drow of Lyrathil in the Sea of Fallen Stars (which is called "extensive mantle magic that may near-equal the level of mythals, just as the Shoon sorcerors did...") Thay doesn't have the proper traditions to weave that sort of wide, single field of magic. Note, however, that they *have* made extensive use of smaller magics to make the land more fertile, tame the weather, and other similar tasks. Much the way the Netherese used to use 10th level spells to hold back the glaciers and warm their sub-arctic lands to a temperate clime. Only it's taken Thay many more spells to do the same over a much smaller area. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 09:11:48
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
For a long time Myth Lharast has been like a small hunk of meat caught in my back teeth that no amount of tongue probing can dislodge. Simply put, as a "Myth X" city it didn't make much sense. Similarly, Myth Iliscar on Lantan doesn't make sense either unless we put an elven presence on that island (pre-human obviously) as well.
I've tinkered with a few solutions, one of which gels fairly well with the current (and controversial) take on deities in 4E. I'd long latched onto Ed's statement that gods in the Realms use a large amount of subterfuge in terms of gaining worshippers and thereby deriving deific power. I'd envisoned that the Realms was saturated with little (and not so little) cult gods and religions which purported to worship X but in actuality were worshipping Y. Hence the cult of "Gorthak of the Storms" was actually worshipping Talos etc. etc. etc.
As such, I wasn't at all peturbed by the 'folding in' of various deities in the cosmology into others - ala the Sehanine into Selune change as well as others. To me it made sense as I had never envisioned gods in "my Realms" to be anything other than things to be worshipped with meaningful contact occurring more through manifestations rather than avatar or direct god/mortal interaction (ala some of the stuff Ed showcased in FR11 Dwarves Deep).
Drawing from that, and given Myth Lharast's location (surrounded as it is by elven lands and environs for millenia) why couldn't the city have had a sizable elven population who worshipped Sehanine alongside the humans who worshipped Selune (with 'both' gods - actually the same god - giving signs to 'their' respective worshippers that such a thing was "good") and thereby having a hand in the laying of a proper mythal by way of elven High Magic.
In fact, the coming of these moon worshipping moon elves (because Selune and Sehanine are all about the moon and magic) to the environs of Minsorran (led by 'signs' from their deity) may have been the catalyst for the breakaway from that state and the establishment of Myth Lharast.
So in answer to the question, it's not a situation where elves are worshipping a 'human' deity, it's elves worshipping an 'elven' deity alongside humans worshipping a 'human' deity. The fact that these elves and humans can live in social and religious harmony is clearly enhanced by the concept that they are in actuality worshipping the same deity with that deity nudging them into cooperation and interracial co-existence because it suits it to do so.
Anyway, that's my view on Myth Lharast from a post-4E perspective. I think it works fairly well, all things considered.
-- George Krashos
I didn't comment on this earlier because I hadn't yet calmed down about the 4e changes. It's a great explanation, and I'll be incorporating this into my campaign's lore. I'm still on the fence over the whole god-aliasing thing. I like having hundreds of gods in the world, but even so, it makes sense that gods with similar portfolios and alignments and different worshipper demographics would work together and encourage their worshippers to do the same. Good stuff!  |
| Jakk |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 09:13:51
Re: chance87: I was pondering the same thing, rather recently... specifically the idea that the entire Thayan plateau is protected by a simple pseudomythal similar to the one that holds up the Waterdeep plateau against all the excavation happening in Undermountain. The Thayan pseudomythal protects the plateau against collapse, extreme weather conditions, and outsiders (ever since that nasty business with Eltab); effects stronger than this are simply not possible with a magical construct of this size and expanse. This pseudomythal is recent, of course, being raised post-Spellplague, if you're playing 4E... if not (like myself and most others I know), then its date of creation is up to you. |
| chance87 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 05:06:41
Hmm.
Mythals require cooperative magic.
Circle magic = cooperative magic.
Red Wizards use circle magic.
What traits and powers would a Thayan mythal possess? 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Thanks, everyone.
I agree that the Zhents might not possess the cohesiveness to produce a Mythal sized ward. I wonder if the Drow could accomplish it? If they were to retake the twisted tower in Shadowdale with Zhent support, perhaps they could attempt to construct a Mythal-type ward to prevent it from being retaken by the other dales or the intervention of Cormyr.
Afet
It would have to be an odd group of drow... Creating a mythal requires cooperative spellcasting. And from what we've seen of the drow, even when cooperation can achieve a worthy goal, they're still quite willing to off a rival for their own advancement.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 06:15:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's pretty similar to what I was thinking, Krash. I wasn't approaching it from any ruleset-specific angle; I was just figuring it was elven worshippers of Sehanine and human worshippers of Selūne. It's an obvious way around it, thinks I.
... Though you did explain it better, and with more involved Realmslore. 
Hey, no sweat. It used to be my "thing".
-- George Krashos
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 03:26:17
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
For a long time Myth Lharast has been like a small hunk of meat caught in my back teeth that no amount of tongue probing can dislodge. Simply put, as a "Myth X" city it didn't make much sense. Similarly, Myth Iliscar on Lantan doesn't make sense either unless we put an elven presence on that island (pre-human obviously) as well.
I've tinkered with a few solutions, one of which gels fairly well with the current (and controversial) take on deities in 4E. I'd long latched onto Ed's statement that gods in the Realms use a large amount of subterfuge in terms of gaining worshippers and thereby deriving deific power. I'd envisoned that the Realms was saturated with little (and not so little) cult gods and religions which purported to worship X but in actuality were worshipping Y. Hence the cult of "Gorthak of the Storms" was actually worshipping Talos etc. etc. etc.
As such, I wasn't at all peturbed by the 'folding in' of various deities in the cosmology into others - ala the Sehanine into Selune change as well as others. To me it made sense as I had never envisioned gods in "my Realms" to be anything other than things to be worshipped with meaningful contact occurring more through manifestations rather than avatar or direct god/mortal interaction (ala some of the stuff Ed showcased in FR11 Dwarves Deep).
Drawing from that, and given Myth Lharast's location (surrounded as it is by elven lands and environs for millenia) why couldn't the city have had a sizable elven population who worshipped Sehanine alongside the humans who worshipped Selune (with 'both' gods - actually the same god - giving signs to 'their' respective worshippers that such a thing was "good") and thereby having a hand in the laying of a proper mythal by way of elven High Magic.
In fact, the coming of these moon worshipping moon elves (because Selune and Sehanine are all about the moon and magic) to the environs of Minsorran (led by 'signs' from their deity) may have been the catalyst for the breakaway from that state and the establishment of Myth Lharast.
So in answer to the question, it's not a situation where elves are worshipping a 'human' deity, it's elves worshipping an 'elven' deity alongside humans worshipping a 'human' deity. The fact that these elves and humans can live in social and religious harmony is clearly enhanced by the concept that they are in actuality worshipping the same deity with that deity nudging them into cooperation and interracial co-existence because it suits it to do so.
Anyway, that's my view on Myth Lharast from a post-4E perspective. I think it works fairly well, all things considered.
-- George Krashos
That's pretty similar to what I was thinking, Krash. I wasn't approaching it from any ruleset-specific angle; I was just figuring it was elven worshippers of Sehanine and human worshippers of Selūne. It's an obvious way around it, thinks I.
... Though you did explain it better, and with more involved Realmslore. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 03:05:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Yes the floating cities of Netheril are held up there by Mythals (both past and present versions of Netheril I believe, but the past ones definately)
Are you sure you're not thinking of the giant "battery-like" Netherese mythallars instead Alisttair?
Indeed. Despite the unfortunate similarity of their names, mythals and mythallars are totally separate beasts.
Ah yes, my mistake. But the similarities don't end only upon the names, but they are quite different, yes. Thanks for the correction guys  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 02:38:26
That works for me! Good stuff George.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 02:33:40
For a long time Myth Lharast has been like a small hunk of meat caught in my back teeth that no amount of tongue probing can dislodge. Simply put, as a "Myth X" city it didn't make much sense. Similarly, Myth Iliscar on Lantan doesn't make sense either unless we put an elven presence on that island (pre-human obviously) as well.
I've tinkered with a few solutions, one of which gels fairly well with the current (and controversial) take on deities in 4E. I'd long latched onto Ed's statement that gods in the Realms use a large amount of subterfuge in terms of gaining worshippers and thereby deriving deific power. I'd envisoned that the Realms was saturated with little (and not so little) cult gods and religions which purported to worship X but in actuality were worshipping Y. Hence the cult of "Gorthak of the Storms" was actually worshipping Talos etc. etc. etc.
As such, I wasn't at all peturbed by the 'folding in' of various deities in the cosmology into others - ala the Sehanine into Selune change as well as others. To me it made sense as I had never envisioned gods in "my Realms" to be anything other than things to be worshipped with meaningful contact occurring more through manifestations rather than avatar or direct god/mortal interaction (ala some of the stuff Ed showcased in FR11 Dwarves Deep).
Drawing from that, and given Myth Lharast's location (surrounded as it is by elven lands and environs for millenia) why couldn't the city have had a sizable elven population who worshipped Sehanine alongside the humans who worshipped Selune (with 'both' gods - actually the same god - giving signs to 'their' respective worshippers that such a thing was "good") and thereby having a hand in the laying of a proper mythal by way of elven High Magic.
In fact, the coming of these moon worshipping moon elves (because Selune and Sehanine are all about the moon and magic) to the environs of Minsorran (led by 'signs' from their deity) may have been the catalyst for the breakaway from that state and the establishment of Myth Lharast.
So in answer to the question, it's not a situation where elves are worshipping a 'human' deity, it's elves worshipping an 'elven' deity alongside humans worshipping a 'human' deity. The fact that these elves and humans can live in social and religious harmony is clearly enhanced by the concept that they are in actuality worshipping the same deity with that deity nudging them into cooperation and interracial co-existence because it suits it to do so.
Anyway, that's my view on Myth Lharast from a post-4E perspective. I think it works fairly well, all things considered.
-- George Krashos
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| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:23:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
True, but there have been elven followers of human deities. Considering that mythals are generally elven, I'd be inclined to think there were some Sehanine worshippers involved in raising that mythal.
I'm not so sure about that. Myth Lharast was founded as a "purer" temple city with worship solely to Selūne rather than the orthodox theocracy of the Minsorran*. And I'm pretty sure Krash already put forth the view that there wasn't much in the way of elven influence involved when the mythal was erected, during a similar discussion a few years back.
* The Minsorran was a short-lived conclave of different religious orders [to Selūne, Lathander, Shar and Mystra] that settled around Lake Weng in Amn in the Year of the Late Sun [300 DR]. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:03:47
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Do we know for certain that elves were not involved in the raising of Myth Lharast's mythal?
I don't immediately recall whether it's actually been specifically stated. I just remember that there were no specific elven influences mentioned in reference to the temple city. And the LoI references for Myth Lharast tell us it was dedicated to Selune: not the most elven of deities.
True, but there have been elven followers of human deities. Considering that mythals are generally elven, I'd be inclined to think there were some Sehanine worshippers involved in raising that mythal. |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 09:16:44
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Do we know for certain that elves were not involved in the raising of Myth Lharast's mythal?
I don't immediately recall whether it's actually been specifically stated. I just remember that there were no specific elven influences mentioned in reference to the temple city. And the LoI references for Myth Lharast tell us it was dedicated to Selune: not the most elven of deities.
Before she remembered she was Sehanine...  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 06:10:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Do we know for certain that elves were not involved in the raising of Myth Lharast's mythal?
I don't immediately recall whether it's actually been specifically stated. I just remember that there were no specific elven influences mentioned in reference to the temple city. And the LoI references for Myth Lharast tell us it was dedicated to Selune: not the most elven of deities. |
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