| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sightless |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 21:16:01
In relation to my last scroll, this one involves another side project of mine, which hasn’t quite gotten off the ground yet, but is most definiately in the planning stages. Since you’ve guys given me plenty of ideas before, I’m sturring the pot for this one. The essential working base assumption, the “A” in the entire argument if you will, is that some of the Netherese believe that Shaar has too much control over the nation of reborn Netherial. Some have studied the “good old days,” enough to believe that Netherial would be better off without so much influence by Shaar. A number of individual factors are related to this, which I shall elaborate on later, but given this, let me know, what do you think?
Note, timeline wise this is taking place in 4e.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 23:01:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
*prods Wooly* Bane is not Xvim! Bad hamster! 
Ah, another poor, deluded Banite, not realizing he's worshipping Junior instead of Daddy.  |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 22:22:36
*prods Wooly* Bane is not Xvim! Bad hamster! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 22:09:43
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Oh,
Selûnarrans aren’t the ones responsible for the arson, that’s actually the result of one of the merchant groups that eventually become the Silver Ravens. I was trying to be sustenct about this, instead of going on for page after page.
I thought Mask was dead, isn’t he? Or has he been restored? Assuming that he was actually dead in the first place. Just want to know for my own purposes. If he’s dead, I might have him, or some reminent of his active anyway. I also intend to have the Selûnarrans more active later on, but for the moment, there kind of in the background. Hope that clears up most of the confussion.
I think he is dead, officially. Of course, you could have him still around, somehow... Maybe he's like Myrkul, and around as an artifact and not a god. Maybe he's now reduced to something between an avatar and a demipower, and it's all a plot to weaken Shar and gain his godhood back. Maybe he pulled a Bane/Xvim thing, and his son will take his father's place. There's a lot of ways you could spin it.
I personally like Mask a lot, so in my Realms, he would not be dead. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 17:19:31
Oh,
Selûnarrans aren’t the ones responsible for the arson, that’s actually the result of one of the merchant groups that eventually become the Silver Ravens. I was trying to be sustenct about this, instead of going on for page after page.
I thought Mask was dead, isn’t he? Or has he been restored? Assuming that he was actually dead in the first place. Just want to know for my own purposes. If he’s dead, I might have him, or some reminent of his active anyway. I also intend to have the Selûnarrans more active later on, but for the moment, there kind of in the background. Hope that clears up most of the confussion.
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| Sightless |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 16:43:57
Thanks Giant Space Hamster, as for your suggestions, my plans were that the Cult of True Mortals, is initvertently receiving their power not from Char, but aa powerful demon, the books that each person reads, when read enough times, helps to secure a pact between them and the demon. This artifact, a kind of mythal device powered by souls, is connected to the various books, and serves as a conduit to the abyss, once there, the demon is devouring the souls, through a ritual to gain further power. In short, weakening the Gods, and strengthening himself at the same time. Those this sect will be completely independent of char within a very short time. I should note, that there not really working together, as so much take advantage of the chaos other groups are making. Several groups are also active in the forest kingdom and in the north, as well as elsewhere, I only mentioned the three groups important to Sembia. As for further Netherese survivers, I was, and am still playing round with that, in regards to Lady Thibauneau, I had plans for her having a secret menter that’s a Netherese surviver. Her goals are to try and restore all the strengths of old Netheral, but remove there weaknesses. To her that means removing, or weakening Char’s strangle hold on the empire. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 16:12:21
I think you've got some good ideas, here.
One thing I should note, though... I like involving Selûne and the Selûnarrans, but arson and such would not be a tool of goodly folk or powers. I, personally, really like the deity Mask, and in my Realms he would be actively working against Shar. I would make him, or another dark power, be part of the overall plot against Shar.
Another thought: We know from Ed that Larloch, Aumvor, and Ioulaum are not the only Netherese who have remained in the Realms. You could easily involve another hidden survivor of the Fall, who has a personal grudge against Shade's rulers or even Shar, and this hidden Netherese and his agents could be a large part of stirring up the unrest.
And all of these separate elements don't have to be working together. One group or entity could be manipulating the others, or it could be a case of multiple independent plots happening at the same time. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 15:38:49
Well… there’s a good bit here… liked the civil war reference you guys. Now, there are a few things I should have probably clarified to begin with, but didn’t, largely as I wanted to hear where the conversation would go. I think now is the time to reveal what my crazy mind has come up with so far, and you guys can kick it around and play with it as you like. I should note, that I’ve not yet read the Return of the Archwizards, nor the Twilight wars (I think that’s what it’s called), but intend too. Scanning books is time consuming, and I do have other matters that require my attention. That said, I feel that you can take a look at what I’m planning, and can provide imput.
I should also note, two important things, when I meant a Netherese Civil war, I wasn’t just referring to the Shadovar, but also those that they have direct hedgamonic control over. Second, and this goes back to George’s comment, as he, and Ed, are reinforcing something I have already concluded, Char would eventually engage in tactics to weaken the Shadovar. For that reason, I am going to be introducing a “Cult of Shadows,”, known by a small number of dedicated individuals, as “Chayel Sjach Oyr Irthos, or Those that are dedicated to the Secret Oath of Shadows, if translated directly, although shadows can also mean darkness. This term is used very seldom among members of the sect, the founders all coming from the church of Char, with the soul exception of the arch wizard Alonzo Feathersteel. Members only mention the name of this most sacred organization in vary special circumstances during very private conclaves, which occur as seldomly as the heads of the organization can manage it. In understanding this organization, one can find readily analogy, being some what imperfect as all analogies are, in the Cult of the dragon. At least as far as being small cells, who are working to bring about the distruction of Faerûn, so that Char can rebuild it in a proper way. This Cult doesn’t even refer to Char, as Char, but rather to her under another name, with only the highest ranking members of the Cells knowing of their Goddess’s true identity. Lower members of the Cells are simply told that they are working to aid a Goddess that was imprisoned in ancient times, by other jealous Gods, and there actions will bring about a better age, etc, etc, additional typical rhetoric for such things. Each Cult works to accomplish two major goals, either to infeltrate various governmental bodies across Faerûn, working to disrupt their efficacy and engage in actions, which on the long term will be harmful to the regions overall benafit. The second group, attempts to foment civil unrest wherever and whenever it can (The group has other goals beyond this, but this is enough, I think for now). The three groups that are active in Sembia by 1481 are The True Faith of Mortals, The Cult of the Stalwart, and lastly the Silver Ravens. Holding this as our first given assumption (A), we can move onto the next factor.
(A). agents of Selûnarra have been popping in and out since about 1408 with some regularity. There major goal has mostly been to gather information, and periodically assist the church of Selune, usually in small ways (I have further plans for the group later on). One of said members will supply certain high ranking Shadovar, through intermediaries, documents that present the possibility that the phaerimms were one of Char’s creations (whether said information is true or not cannot be discerned, and I intend to keep it that way). This information eventually makes it way to the Princes of Shade, starting a fierce debate, as it provides the possibility that Char was in part responsible for the down fall of ancient Netheral, and possibly the events that have influenced the development of the Shades themselves. Shadovar agents sent to the Herald's Holdfast, confirm the authenticity of the document, but not the information therein. A partial copy of the Nether scrolls are discovered at the sametime, with copies being brought back, along with several tomes related to ancient and powerful magics for study. The latter development, was part of the Selûnarrans plan, as certain responsible members hoped that such an action might weaken the enherence to Char so prevalent among the Shadovar.
(This ends Given, dash line in place, argument provided).
(1) Elie Moonablar Priest of Char, and member of the Cult of the Stalwart, successfully infiltrates one of the cells of the Cult of the Shattered Peak, and begins to slowly subvert several of it’s memvers. Under his guidance the group carries out a series of assassinations against several Selgauntian officials and two Shadovar over a two week period.
(2). In response Shade declares marshal law, greatly curtails trade coming in and out of the city, and begins an investigation attempting to track down the individuals responsible.
(3) During this same time Onglos Andolso and members of the Silver Ravens begin to meet with various long skeaming, and previously uncoordinated , cabals of various merchant groups trying to rid Sembia of Shade rule in Saerloon. In convincing the various factions to work with them, the Ravens claim responsibility for the assassinations in the Capital, which is after a fashion true.
(4) a series of arsens throughout the city of Saerloon, consisting of several of the cities major granaries, a number of warehouses, and four ships, combined with the cities powers inability to catch the culprits, causes increasing tension. By Winter’s end the city is a keg of oil of impact, the slightest hard push will cause matters to erupt in violence. The Shades sending additional wizards and soldiers not helping the matter in the least. While the Princes are aware of this development, none step in directly as of yet, leaving the matter to underlings they are at the moment more concerned with the beginnings of something more cerious.
(5). The keg goes off on the first of Mirtul as a consequence of three taps: first tap, Petronille Bandgetslow, daughter of Abelard Bandgetslow, is found dead on the porch to her family’s tallhouse. While there is no physical mark upon her anywhere, the absence of any shadow, even when the body is in the light of full highsun, leads many to believe that shadow magic is involved. Both father and daughter were considered pillers of the city, widely liked and respected. Petronille worked as one of the cities Tax Dischargers, or one of those folks responsible for ensuring that city revenue, that which doesn’t go out to the Shade proper, is put to best use. A task that requires a fine head for numbers and a keen wit for how to squeeze the silver for all it’s worth. Her father, argueably one her staunchest supporters, was one of the new heads of the Firehands Group, and has helped put money, wisely, but beneficently into anumber of wayhamlet across the width of Sembia. The wizard Anto Flacks, apprentice to the Arcanist Khemal Addington, was considered most to be the one responsible for the death. The younger wizard had persued the last for many a month prior and she seemed to spurn all his advances, having feelings for Elith Myferd, a merchant in her father’s company. Some thought that Petronille uncovered some dark scheme among her superiors and was silenced before she could reveal what she knew. This was however, the icing on the proverbial cake, as the Church of Char was already spitting distence from carrying out a full inquisition, trying to capture and eliminate a group of blasphemers calling itself the True Faith of Mortals. A group of individuals, who claim that miracles can be worked on the basis of faith, and that the Gods aren’t needed at all. Further support for their claims comes in the form of their working miner miracles (the equivilent of third and fourth level clerick spells). The Cult has one many adherents, or at least many that see some advantage with the Cult, which has lead to some brutal actions on the part of the Charans. These two elements work together to provide the second and third tap, resulting in two days of serious rioting, which is eventually quelled; at least temporarily. .
(6) Thibauneau Tanthul,* daughter of Lamorak Tanthul, head of the expedition to the Herald's Holdfast, finishes construction of a flying enclave. She is eventually approached by members of the Cult of the Stalwart, a sect working within the church of Char, who claim that only through uniting Char with Selûn, claiming that this was how matters were from old, and the splitting of the two has what has lead to such henderous damage to the old empire. Suspecting that the sect has darker motives, she excepts.
(8) Attacks on trade caravans, as well as raids against several wayhamlets. In response many Sembian leaders increase the number of troops and sellswords and began to increase patrols of major traderoads.
(9) Under the insistence of members of the CotS, Thibauneau constructs two smaller enclaves, and several air ships, but unbeknownst to the Cult several contegency and scrying spells are placed on each. To the realm at large all this labor is to further return the glory of the old empire, and to further protect the Sembians.
(10) Thibauneau discovers that the CotS are in truth trying to weaken the empire threw the use of the Church of Char, and informs her father, who in turn informs the other Princes. During the course of their investigations, it is discovered that Thibauneau’s enclave has small temples to both Amaunator, and Auppenser. As a consequence she is taken into custody.
(11). Shortly after this, Joint task forces of the Silver ravens and the shaddered peacks launch an unsuccessful attack against Shade enclave. While they do manage to damage the Mythel, The damage is largely enconsequential. During the chaos however, Telamont, Tabra, Thibauneau, and Aglarel go missing. All attempts at determining the Princes where abouts faile. While the High Prince has left instructions that Dethud is encharge during his absence, his injuries during the attack keep him from fully fulfilling that role.
(12) Prince Rivalen * is contacted by Char, and informed of his role as the clensing force for the Shade empire, having been informed of his duties, he and his allies leave Shae enclave to take refuge on another flying city; the Shade civil war has begun.
(Notes: first, this is going to require a great deal more flushing out, this merely the beginning. Second, those points that have stars next to them represent areas where it’s truly a shot in the dark. While I don’t know for certain that Shades can bread, I would like to assume that they can, but don’t know exactly yes. Other outsiders can, so why not shades, right? Anyhow, kick it around, chop it up, and let me know what you like and don’t like.)
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| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 21:35:12
Thats allways a good approach to a discussion... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 17:47:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You two can go back and forth here. There's so many unknown factors for his decision that it could be argued anything could come into play. Maybe he needed a god's help because he wasn't exactly prepared for this at that second. Maybe his desperate attempt was also the first time he'd been introduced to the shadow weave and he leapt upon it instantly (note, that may require some research as to when the first use of the shadow weave was). Maybe it had some other factors to do with the shadow weave. Maybe he needed a spell component that was from the plane in question for such a powerful spell, and the only thing he had on hand was material from the plane of shadow.
We could go back and forth, but I'm not going to. I stand by the fact that there is absolutely nothing in canon that indicates divine assistance was needed or even a factor, and I stand by the fact that canon indicates that Lord Shadow twice made the the decision to take the city into Shadow, despite plenty of alternatives. I'm opting not to keep arguing either point. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 14:10:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
A wizard can't just take a random spell and make it larger in effect so a spell that normaly affects a single person or a small group that holds hands suddenly affects a whole city with everything in and around it because he desires so.
Maybe not just any spell, but there have been plenty of examples of wizards making larger versions of existing spells.
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
If you reread my previous post you see that devine intervention was just one possibility why he was able to do so. Even when there was no devine help we still don't know how exactly he was able to do it and imho its likely that due to his specialization in shadow magic he was only able to do transfer his city to the plane of shadow.
Similar magics exist that would allow what he did on a small scale. I don't see any reason to assume there was anything other than an upscaled spell being used here. And if all he could target was a single plane, then he's not worthy of the title of archmage -- plane-hopping is a pretty common thing among higher level wizards
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
In fact there isn't anything that indicates he was able to just choose another plane.
Nothing indicates he wasn't able to choose. And since spells exist that allow travel to any plane, I find it very unlikely that he didn't have a choice.
Besides, the choice to return to Shadow was his -- the city could have been moved to another part of the Realms.
You two can go back and forth here. There's so many unknown factors for his decision that it could be argued anything could come into play. Maybe he needed a god's help because he wasn't exactly prepared for this at that second. Maybe his desperate attempt was also the first time he'd been introduced to the shadow weave and he leapt upon it instantly (note, that may require some research as to when the first use of the shadow weave was). Maybe it had some other factors to do with the shadow weave. Maybe he needed a spell component that was from the plane in question for such a powerful spell, and the only thing he had on hand was material from the plane of shadow. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 09:01:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe not just any spell, but there have been plenty of examples of wizards making larger versions of existing spells.
Similar magics exist that would allow what he did on a small scale. I don't see any reason to assume there was anything other than an upscaled spell being used here. And if all he could target was a single plane, then he's not worthy of the title of archmage -- plane-hopping is a pretty common thing among higher level wizards
You are implying that its easy to just make a spell bigger and the task is done.
I only know a few occassions where someone made a "bigger" version of a spell on that scale and then it was someone who was considered one of the best of the best of his art.
Planeshifting whole cities is not a common thing among higher level wizards.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nothing indicates he wasn't able to choose. And since spells exist that allow travel to any plane, I find it very unlikely that he didn't have a choice.
Again you are implying that he just has to choose a spell and cast it "bigger" to get what he wants when there are no rules that allow something like this.
Metamagic feats wont allow something like this so he has to research some new method and I find it very likely that he has take some disadvantages while doing so to improve some other aspects of the spell.
Just like creating epic spells in 3.5 where every positive affects added makes it harder to develop the spell and negative aspects added make it easier. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 19:17:50
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
That's perhaps a niave understanding of human nature, remember Telmont and the Church of Shar controls alot of what the average Shadovar sees, there so doused in propaganda that they'd be more likely to blame the Selunarra for what happened to them. Humans, Shadar Kai, Krinths, and Shades are all irrational beings by thier fundamental nature, only with training do they gain any real measure of rational thinking.
Also ordinary citizens of Shade have no access to Selunarra even if it came back to Toril so all they know about it is what horrorible things thier leaders tell them. Just like the Drow do, villifying and lying about other races and religions and so on.
Keep in mind that my original suggestion was having Selûnarra return in a manner that was visible to the citizens of Shade. All the propaganda in the world won't affect what people see for themselves.
And until Selûnarra returns, there is no reason for the leaders of Shade to say anything about it. In fact, since Shade wasn't around for the fall and Opus was, Shade would have no reason to believe Opus was still around. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 18:57:30
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
A wizard can't just take a random spell and make it larger in effect so a spell that normaly affects a single person or a small group that holds hands suddenly affects a whole city with everything in and around it because he desires so.
Maybe not just any spell, but there have been plenty of examples of wizards making larger versions of existing spells.
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
If you reread my previous post you see that devine intervention was just one possibility why he was able to do so. Even when there was no devine help we still don't know how exactly he was able to do it and imho its likely that due to his specialization in shadow magic he was only able to do transfer his city to the plane of shadow.
Similar magics exist that would allow what he did on a small scale. I don't see any reason to assume there was anything other than an upscaled spell being used here. And if all he could target was a single plane, then he's not worthy of the title of archmage -- plane-hopping is a pretty common thing among higher level wizards
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
In fact there isn't anything that indicates he was able to just choose another plane.
Nothing indicates he wasn't able to choose. And since spells exist that allow travel to any plane, I find it very unlikely that he didn't have a choice.
Besides, the choice to return to Shadow was his -- the city could have been moved to another part of the Realms. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 17:50:50
As for magic, they had spells over level 9 back then so the spell they used would likely no longer be possible now. But I figure it was more likely a Greater Gate Spell of some sort. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 17:48:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I doubt what the average citizens think will matter. Telamont always gets the final say. Besides, they owe it to him that they’re alive when more than half of their fellows perished when Netheril fell.
We're talking about a civil war, here. Usually, rebelling against the central authority -- Telamont, in this case -- is part of the process.
Telamont did what he thought was right for his people and what was within his capability to do. Besides, why would the ordinary populace complain about their fate when their leaders themselves were also having a hell of a time in Shadowfell? If the Shadovar were just "walking in the park" when the rest of Shade were famished or dying, then it's likely they'd revolt. But no, their leaders suffered the same fate they did.
You're not seeing my point. My point is that the return of Selûnarra would show the citizens of Shade that they could have been somewhere other than in Shadow, and that they could have survived the Fall without a centuries-long fight for survival. It was their leadership that chose to put them in constant dire jeopardy when there were clearly safer alternatives.
That's perhaps a niave understanding of human nature, remember Telmont and the Church of Shar controls alot of what the average Shadovar sees, there so doused in propaganda that they'd be more likely to blame the Selunarra for what happened to them. Humans, Shadar Kai, Krinths, and Shades are all irrational beings by thier fundamental nature, only with training do they gain any real measure of rational thinking.
Also ordinary citizens of Shade have no access to Selunarra even if it came back to Toril so all they know about it is what horrorible things thier leaders tell them. Just like the Drow do, villifying and lying about other races and religions and so on. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 14:49:45
A wizard can't just take a random spell and make it larger in effect so a spell that normaly affects a single person or a small group that holds hands suddenly affects a whole city with everything in and around it because he desires so.
If you reread my previous post you see that devine intervention was just one possibility why he was able to do so. Even when there was no devine help we still don't know how exactly he was able to do it and imho its likely that due to his specialization in shadow magic he was only able to do transfer his city to the plane of shadow.
In fact there isn't anything that indicates he was able to just choose another plane. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 13:08:16
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nothing in canon indicates it was anything more than an overly large planeshift spell -- and spells like that could be aimed anywhere.
There are no suggestions the spell was anything beyond that, or that any divine assistance was needed.
So how do you do an overly large plane shift spell in canon?
You take a canon spell and make it larger in effect. Doing this is canon; Proctiv's Move Mountain, for example, is a seriously upscaled and specialized levitation.
I just re-read the description of what happened to Shade. Absolutely nothing to indicate divine intervention. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 13:06:00
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You are the one who fails to see my point. As I said, the leaders of Shade did what was within their ability to do. It’s not as though they deliberately chose to shift to the Plane of Shadow because they so wanted to suffer for years like deranged masochists. Any ordinary person in Shade with a brain would understand that.
What could have Telamont done? Bargain with a goodly god like Selune? In exchange for what? And it’s not as though he had enough time for that—he didn’t have a “direct line” to Selune or any other gods that he could use to call them at his every whim. In one of the versions of their retreat to the Plane of Shadow, it was said they only had a few moments before the whole of Netheril fell. Time was a factor, and options were very limited. Again, Telamont did the best he could.
Nope. The failure to see the point remains with you. There are countless other planes -- Elemental Air, the Astral, the Outlands, etc, -- where Shade could have gone. Instead, Lord Shadow chose one of the most dangerous ones he could pick.
And he picked it twice. Not once, twice. Once before Netheril fell -- not as it was falling, not as an "Oh, crap, we have to exit, stage left, right now!" maneuver, but a deliberate "Hey, I like Shadow and want to take all these people who have no say in the matter there with me!" decision. Then Netheril fell, while Shade was elsewhere. The city came back afterward, and they decided they couldn't stay in what was Netheril.
Did they then go to a friendlier plane? Nope. Did they then take their flying city which could go literally anywhere in the Realms, and find another patch of ground that wasn't crawling with phaerimm? Nope. The decision was "Okay, this sucks, we can't stay, so let's go back to that really really dangerous place we just came from." and they went back to Shadow.
That's canon, per page 80 of Lords of Darkness. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 08:48:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nothing in canon indicates it was anything more than an overly large planeshift spell -- and spells like that could be aimed anywhere.
There are no suggestions the spell was anything beyond that, or that any divine assistance was needed.
So how do you do an overly large plane shift spell in canon? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 06:02:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I doubt what the average citizens think will matter. Telamont always gets the final say. Besides, they owe it to him that they’re alive when more than half of their fellows perished when Netheril fell.
We're talking about a civil war, here. Usually, rebelling against the central authority -- Telamont, in this case -- is part of the process.
Telamont did what he thought was right for his people and what was within his capability to do. Besides, why would the ordinary populace complain about their fate when their leaders themselves were also having a hell of a time in Shadowfell? If the Shadovar were just "walking in the park" when the rest of Shade were famished or dying, then it's likely they'd revolt. But no, their leaders suffered the same fate they did.
You're not seeing my point. My point is that the return of Selûnarra would show the citizens of Shade that they could have been somewhere other than in Shadow, and that they could have survived the Fall without a centuries-long fight for survival. It was their leadership that chose to put them in constant dire jeopardy when there were clearly safer alternatives.
You are the one who fails to see my point. As I said, the leaders of Shade did what was within their ability to do. It’s not as though they deliberately chose to shift to the Plane of Shadow because they so wanted to suffer for years like deranged masochists. Any ordinary person in Shade with a brain would understand that.
What could have Telamont done? Bargain with a goodly god like Selune? In exchange for what? And it’s not as though he had enough time for that—he didn’t have a “direct line” to Selune or any other gods that he could use to call them at his every whim. In one of the versions of their retreat to the Plane of Shadow, it was said they only had a few moments before the whole of Netheril fell. Time was a factor, and options were very limited. Again, Telamont did the best he could. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 23:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I doubt what the average citizens think will matter. Telamont always gets the final say. Besides, they owe it to him that they’re alive when more than half of their fellows perished when Netheril fell.
We're talking about a civil war, here. Usually, rebelling against the central authority -- Telamont, in this case -- is part of the process.
And my point is the average citizen of Shade comparing their rescue to the rescue of the Selûnarrans. Shade spent centuries in a literally dark place, fighting for their very survival, and having to struggle just to be able to make it back. Selûnarra, on the other hand, was in a warm and nurturing place, the citizens did not have a daily struggle for survival, and their return (for the purposes of my point, they have returned) was at leisure, not another struggle.
In other words, for Shade, they had to endure darkness and conflict because of their leaders, when Selûnarra clearly had a much easier time.
That kind of thing is going to piss people off, even if their "dear leader" doesn't like it.
I see what you are getting at Wooly, but I think it depends on a few variables to be an issue. The biggest, in my mind, is how many of the present (*present* being whenever Selunarra returns) day citizens of Shade lived through the years on the Plane of Shadows and how many have not. If this is post 100 year time jump then I would imagine the majority have never even been to the Plane of Shadow, much less struggled just to survive there, since I believe the majority of citizens are not near immortals like the Princes. The other factor is the possibility that the Shades view it as a mark of their strength (or pride, honor, whatever) that they survived where they believe others would have failed. If that is the case, they will view the Selunarrans as soft and weak for having had it so easy.
Given that most people want to be comfortable, I think that a forced struggle for survival is going to pale in comparison to a more comfortable life, especially when that struggle for survival was purely because of the whims of their leadership.
When you lose loved ones and have to endure extreme hardship because of an obsession of your liege lord, you're going to have some hard feelings about that.
I get what you are saying and I agree. However, as I said, I seriously doubt that many people in Shade Enclave have actually seen the Plane of Shadow and were instead born after they arrived back on the Prime Material because most of the people aren't Shades. And if the majority are Shades, they just might enjoy near immortality enough to overlook how they came by it.
I look at it like this: Here in the U.S., the older generations look on the current generations coming up with a degree of disgust at how easy they have it. I don't believe envy drives this. I believe they have come to understand that hardship is part of life and it has shaped who they are and they are stronger for it. They don't cushy lives for themselves, they want others to know what it feels like to endure hardship so they can appreciate what they have. I believe the citizens of Shade could take an attitude akin to that when they see how easy their cousins had it.
I'm just saying it's a possibility. I think it could go either way and we don't know nearly enough about the average citizen of the Empire to say either way. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 22:41:44
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I doubt what the average citizens think will matter. Telamont always gets the final say. Besides, they owe it to him that they’re alive when more than half of their fellows perished when Netheril fell.
We're talking about a civil war, here. Usually, rebelling against the central authority -- Telamont, in this case -- is part of the process.
And my point is the average citizen of Shade comparing their rescue to the rescue of the Selûnarrans. Shade spent centuries in a literally dark place, fighting for their very survival, and having to struggle just to be able to make it back. Selûnarra, on the other hand, was in a warm and nurturing place, the citizens did not have a daily struggle for survival, and their return (for the purposes of my point, they have returned) was at leisure, not another struggle.
In other words, for Shade, they had to endure darkness and conflict because of their leaders, when Selûnarra clearly had a much easier time.
That kind of thing is going to piss people off, even if their "dear leader" doesn't like it.
I see what you are getting at Wooly, but I think it depends on a few variables to be an issue. The biggest, in my mind, is how many of the present (*present* being whenever Selunarra returns) day citizens of Shade lived through the years on the Plane of Shadows and how many have not. If this is post 100 year time jump then I would imagine the majority have never even been to the Plane of Shadow, much less struggled just to survive there, since I believe the majority of citizens are not near immortals like the Princes. The other factor is the possibility that the Shades view it as a mark of their strength (or pride, honor, whatever) that they survived where they believe others would have failed. If that is the case, they will view the Selunarrans as soft and weak for having had it so easy.
Given that most people want to be comfortable, I think that a forced struggle for survival is going to pale in comparison to a more comfortable life, especially when that struggle for survival was purely because of the whims of their leadership.
When you lose loved ones and have to endure extreme hardship because of an obsession of your liege lord, you're going to have some hard feelings about that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 22:32:38
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is nothing in canon which indicates that the decision to go into Shadow was anything other than an experiment by Lord Shadow. He was obsessed with the place.
Which would mean that he was specialized in it and it probably was much easier for his shadow magic to transport his city there instead of a diffrent plane (if he was able to do so at all).
Besides being an experiment of him doesn't exclude shar helping him.
Nothing in canon indicates it was anything more than an overly large planeshift spell -- and spells like that could be aimed anywhere.
There are no suggestions the spell was anything beyond that, or that any divine assistance was needed.
I'm happy to play in grey areas, but there is nothing here to make me think Shar had any interest in what happened to Shade. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 22:11:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is nothing in canon which indicates that the decision to go into Shadow was anything other than an experiment by Lord Shadow. He was obsessed with the place.
Which would mean that he was specialized in it and it probably was much easier for his shadow magic to transport his city there instead of a diffrent plane (if he was able to do so at all).
Besides being an experiment of him doesn't exclude shar helping him. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 21:04:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I doubt what the average citizens think will matter. Telamont always gets the final say. Besides, they owe it to him that they’re alive when more than half of their fellows perished when Netheril fell.
We're talking about a civil war, here. Usually, rebelling against the central authority -- Telamont, in this case -- is part of the process.
And my point is the average citizen of Shade comparing their rescue to the rescue of the Selûnarrans. Shade spent centuries in a literally dark place, fighting for their very survival, and having to struggle just to be able to make it back. Selûnarra, on the other hand, was in a warm and nurturing place, the citizens did not have a daily struggle for survival, and their return (for the purposes of my point, they have returned) was at leisure, not another struggle.
In other words, for Shade, they had to endure darkness and conflict because of their leaders, when Selûnarra clearly had a much easier time.
That kind of thing is going to piss people off, even if their "dear leader" doesn't like it.
I see what you are getting at Wooly, but I think it depends on a few variables to be an issue. The biggest, in my mind, is how many of the present (*present* being whenever Selunarra returns) day citizens of Shade lived through the years on the Plane of Shadows and how many have not. If this is post 100 year time jump then I would imagine the majority have never even been to the Plane of Shadow, much less struggled just to survive there, since I believe the majority of citizens are not near immortals like the Princes. The other factor is the possibility that the Shades view it as a mark of their strength (or pride, honor, whatever) that they survived where they believe others would have failed. If that is the case, they will view the Selunarrans as soft and weak for having had it so easy.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 16:27:37
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Because we don't know how exactly they moved their whole city to another plane.
Maybe they needed the help of shar to do so and she only allowed them to go to the plane of shadows, or other resources they needed restricted them to that plane.
If they needed shars help, the reson why Selûnarra was able to got to the astral plane was Selune was nice enough to do this for them.
There is nothing in canon which indicates that the decision to go into Shadow was anything other than an experiment by Lord Shadow. He was obsessed with the place. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 13:51:27
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have the Netherese traditionalists wear blue and have gold belt buckles with NS for Netherese Statists. Then, the Sharrans would wear grey, and when they kill a Netherese Statist they take his belt buckle and put it on upside down so that it becomes SN for Sharran Nationalist. Both groups would carry shoulder fired staffs of metal hurling. The Sharrans would obviously be against the taxation of the Netherese which prevents proper tithes to Shar. The Netherese Statists would state they're trying to free the Shadar-Kai from oppression by the Sharrans. Oh, and the Sharrans would sing a song about when "Jaanni" comes marching home again.
If that were to come to pass Sleyvas, I think the town of Gattar's Berg in the foothills of the Desertsmouth Mountains would likely gain significance.
-- George Krashos
Yeah, my favorite NPC of the era would be an unshaven, tobacco spitting, outlaw named Joecie Wails. He carries a couple of blast scepters that have been modified with his specific calling card effect. You see he developed a metamagic effect that can be added to an area effect spelll to add slippery, flammable oil to the area, which people have taken to calling greasing a spell. Thus, he's become known as "Mr. Greased Blue Lightning, fastest fingers south of the Spine of the World". |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 13:15:37
Because we don't know how exactly they moved their whole city to another plane.
Maybe they needed the help of shar to do so and she only allowed them to go to the plane of shadows, or other resources they needed restricted them to that plane.
If they needed shars help, the reson why Selûnarra was able to got to the astral plane was Selune was nice enough to do this for them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 12:48:01
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
That depends wether those alternatives where available to the city of shade or not.
Why wouldn't they have been available? He could have just as easily chosen the Astral, the Outlands, Mechanus, etc. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 12:44:02
That depends wether those alternatives where available to the city of shade or not.
As long as Telamont is in power I don't see any chance for a great civil war because he holds all the power. If he somehow disapears I see a chance where infighting between the princes starts, for example Brennus' hate for Rivalen.
One thing I am wondering about after reading the newest Neverwinter books is how big the Netheril Empire of Shade really is. Because those books made it sound to me that they also have holdings (outpost or maybe even other cities?) in the shadowfell. |
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