| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 05:50:33
the Empire of Netheril be now? This is one of those what-ifs that I can’t help but ask, considering the possibilities that could, in the long run, benefit the people of Toril, and be an avenue for good storytelling, which ultimately, or so I hope, would delight most FR fans…
It was Mystryl’s and the phaerimm’s fault that Netheril fell… And Karsus was partly to blame. It is likely that he had considered other options and tried out some alternatives… and in the end resorted to casting his devastating spell that doomed his homeland…
So here’s the situation: The phaerimm’s lifedrain persists to annihilate the empire’s fertile land. Candlemass is dead, carrying with him the secret ingredients of a spell that dispells the atrophic effects of the lifedrain on crops. And Karsus is exploring other means to save his gradually dying empire, so are a couple of archwizards from other enclaves… Some of them work in concert, temporarily setting aside petty (or serious) rivalry. What would Netheril be like then? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| althen artren |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:23:32
I have the rough outline of a Oberon enclave that did go into space, it had
"cloaking" capabilites, fought a multi-decade war with the Spider race, flew
to countless spheres over a few thousand years and resettled in a high mountain
valley in Osse just before the Godsfall. With enough high level spellcasters
and creating imagination, (like weapon equip ornathopters), really only
the SPELLJAMMER had a chance to destroy it, and they stayed very far away from it. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 07:13:20
It's possible he lost control of some. Those he lost could have fled elsewhere, or a few remained, having nowhere in particular to go. Some might have been suspended in time, just like Raidon Kane, and those Larloch was able to salvage upon his 'recovery' |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 07:01:53
Mind-binding is a useful option and certainly efficient if you are skilled at doing so...I wonder, when the Spellplague hit, did the chains of wizardry on Larloch's liches break or warp in any way??? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:52:22
They can always empower their slaves, to the point where they would at the very least inspire a modicum of respect. After the slaves have established a (relatively) solid presence in Realmspace, the archwizards can then show themselves and do as they wish. And to ensure that their slaves wouldn't betray them, wouldn't indulge in transactions they don't approve, they can mind-bind them too, just like how Larloch controls his 60-odd liches, and Szass Tam, his necromancers. There are many Netherese archwizards who could do it without any problems. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 03:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, they employed gnome slave. On Toril. Where the arrogance of the Netherse was already firmly established. I wouldn't imagine the same could be said for Netherese entering a new environment like Realmspace. I doubt they would trust such important expansionist matters to "lesser beings."
-If a Gnome is trustworthy enough to <insert various duties that Gnomes took the burden of- by canon, we don't have too many examples of specific duties, outside the fact that they were slaves- it is not a leap of logic to envision them being used for trade matters where Netherese Humans themselves are not specifically welcome, face-to-face.
True.
But I can't see this being indicative of the entire Netherese approach to working in Realmspace, nor making deals with the Arcane. One or two arcanists, perhaps, who have trusted and noteworthy relationships with their gnomish slaves.
Accepting that all Netherese arcanists operating in Realmspace would entrust important decisions to what they consider "underlings" and/or "lesser beings," isn't so applicable. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 02:27:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, they employed gnome slave. On Toril. Where the arrogance of the Netherse was already firmly established. I wouldn't imagine the same could be said for Netherese entering a new environment like Realmspace. I doubt they would trust such important expansionist matters to "lesser beings."
-If a Gnome is trustworthy enough to <insert various duties that Gnomes took the burden of- by canon, we don't have too many examples of specific duties, outside the fact that they were slaves- it is not a leap of logic to envision them being used for trade matters where Netherese Humans themselves are not specifically welcome, face-to-face. While neither here nor there, the Mongols (as plenty of other cultures, I am sure) practiced this extensively as they carved Asia into their domain(s). Looking at Q'arland (sp?)'s relationship with his Gnome slave- the Drow were another culture who looked down upon other races- the slave had a lot of leeway and relative autonomy. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:35:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Didn't it occur to them to use proxies instead of personally doing 'business' in a space where they're hardly welcome?
And rely on "lesser" beings? That's not something that would reply to the Netherese...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Unlikely. That's a contradiction of the arrogant presumption of the Netherese to establish their power and dominance in any environment they seek to master.
-The Netherese employed Gnome slaves. They're certainly lesser beings.
Yes, they employed gnome slave. On Toril. Where the arrogance of the Netherse was already firmly established. I wouldn't imagine the same could be said for Netherese entering a new environment like Realmspace. I doubt they would trust such important expansionist matters to "lesser beings." |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 21:27:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Didn't it occur to them to use proxies instead of personally doing 'business' in a space where they're hardly welcome?
And rely on "lesser" beings? That's not something that would reply to the Netherese...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Unlikely. That's a contradiction of the arrogant presumption of the Netherese to establish their power and dominance in any environment they seek to master.
-The Netherese employed Gnome slaves. They're certainly lesser beings. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:57:29
That could be the case. Though Oberon would not agree to it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:51:46
The only way I could see the Netherese using proxies in a situation like this, would be due to the fact that they view such interactions with "outsiders/aliens" as either beneath their sensibilities, or because of their xenophobic nature. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:20:07
Well, they could reveal that the proxies are actually working for them after said proxies successfully establish a relatively solid presence. They may be an arrogant lot, but some of them are more sly than haughty. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 06:22:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Didn't it occur to them to use proxies instead of personally doing 'business' in a space where they're hardly welcome?
Unlikely. That's a contradiction of the arrogant presumption of the Netherese to establish their power and dominance in any environment they seek to master. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 04:25:13
'Lesser' beings have their uses. At least, Shade knows that pretty well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 04:22:54
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Didn't it occur to them to use proxies instead of personally doing 'business' in a space where they're hardly welcome?
And rely on "lesser" beings? That's not something that would reply to the Netherese... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:37:25
Didn't it occur to them to use proxies instead of personally doing 'business' in a space where they're hardly welcome? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 01:54:04
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But my own take is backed up by lore as well:-
Ah, but read more there: Great wealth entered the groundling city, but spelljamming proved an even greater expense.
In 2895 NY, the archwizards decided that the risk was far too great to justify the tremendous expense of lost ships and murdered crews. That is, Arcane then-complete monopoly on helms didn't bother Netherese much as long as they hoped to get anything of value to them in return for their expenses.
We don't know exactly what that expense includes completely, though. Sure, ships and personnel. But it could also just as equally entail the financial compensation the Netherese needed to payout in order to satisfy the purchase of helms from the Arcane in the first place. Which, again, makes them a dominant factor in the Netherese enterprise of spelljamming. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:53:05
Perhaps we could edit that real-world reference out, because it's not overly flattering for people of that nation... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:21:29
IMO, Any race or large group/civilization that has powerful magic or other simple means of planer travel wouldn't bother with Spelljamming. Since the Netherese were adept enough to just 'snap their fingers and be there' when it came to other worlds, Spelljamming was probably thought-of more in terms of what they could get out of Arcane Space itself, rather then as a means of travel.
So, from their point of view, its was a very inefficient way to get anywhere, which is where the "risk was far too great to justify the tremendous expense" comes into play. If they were only using Spelljamming as a means to profit from Arcane Space, and not as their primary method of traveling between worlds, then it would soon have become apparent that space itself had very little to offer, other then other (often belligerent) sentient lifeforms (who took offense at even being considered 'a resource').
It seems to me at this point that many Archwizards were concerned with mercantile pursuits, and that much of their 'scientific breakthroughs' (magical discoveries) were often focused on profits. Sadly, the Netherese are beginning to remind me of an Arcane version of the United States - slavery, exploitation, drainage of natural resources, near-genocide of indigenous peoples, militaristic, 'Yankee Trader' mentality, etc, etc... and at their core, a 'mad brilliance' that made them excel at everything they attempted.
Even snatching godhood. 
We all know what happened when Icarus "reached for the sheavens" - he fell hard. Its an old story. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 13:05:17
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Netherese? Remember what happened when they tried 'jamming? They managed to quickly make it unprofitable. 
That was then. Who's to say they couldn't manage to do that years after?
The main problem remained: power-drunk jerks have troubles working with anyone. A few like Oberon or Larloch may be sensible enough and able to set things up as they see fit, but once this becomes a mass phenomenon... 
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But my own take is backed up by lore as well:-
Ah, but read more there: Great wealth entered the groundling city, but spelljamming proved an even greater expense.
In 2895 NY, the archwizards decided that the risk was far too great to justify the tremendous expense of lost ships and murdered crews. That is, Arcane then-complete monopoly on helms didn't bother Netherese much as long as they hoped to get anything of value to them in return for their expenses. Except for Oberon and like-minded folk for whom it remained worthwile because they explored just for the exploration's sake. Others chose to cut the losses when they finally realized they hit a dead-end.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
There's hardly any records about the Netherese dabbling in planar experiments; but I wouldn't discount the possibility that, given their curiosity to all things arcane, many of them had done so.
In the trilogy, archwizards had a rather casual attitude about the planes, but weren't really interested in any implications as long as there's no open gate to Lower planes or something like this.
Mod edit: Tweaked the spacing a bit to try to get around the page-stretching reference. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 04:27:16
It's The Seven Sigils War, mentioned in GHotR, and, as noted by some scribes, in the novel Finder’s Bane. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 04:16:07
Didn't the Netherese actually invade the Outands in some novel or other?
When you try to 'take over' the planer-hub of the multiverse, I would say that a fairly BIG interest in other planes.
Can't recall where that lore was from (I never read the exact source - only heard about it from others), but I'm pretty sure it was later more fully canonized in some timeline (most likely LEoF, or the GHotR). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 02:56:40
From Netheril it is noted that the only arcanists who ever seriously studied the planus mechanicus set of Nether Scrolls were Valdick and Shadow.
Valdick "invented" all the planar spells (astral spell, gate, etc) from about 2000NY onwards, along with the Valdick's Spheresail spell which duplicated spelljamming. He apparently loved to travel, was rarely actually found anywhere in Netheril, and was generally thought of as a strange but mostly harmless eccentric by his peers.
Shadow's work came more than twelve centuries later, his Demiplane of Shadow was the first other plane (beyond the Ethereal) known to anyone in Netheril other than Valdick. Most of the "dozens of arcanists" who dared to explore his new Demiplane of Shadow never returned so such studies were judged too perilous to persue. Even during his prime, even with Karsus backing him as a close friend and official sponsor, Lord Shadow still found his work ridiculed and rejected so violently that he ultimately had to fake his own assassination to escape the wrath of his peers. His new magic theory was valid, but in Netheril it was always controversial, never revolutionary - it affected Karsus (who decreed laws specifying forced ejection to the Elemental Plane of Fire as part of an ultimate form of execution), but it just didn't have enough time to profoundly affect Netheril at large.
So,
1) The only arcanists actually interested in exploring other worlds and planes were basically radicals and renegades, and
2) Netheril at large was incapable of dealing what they found in these places, they had no interest in falling off the edge of the map describing their empire. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 02:53:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually Sage, I have to go with wooly on this one.
Sure.
But my own take is backed up by lore as well:-
quote:
Netheril: Empire of Magic -- "Winds of Netheril" pg. 9:-
Since the Netherese were unsuccessful in creating their own helms and other spelljamming items-being forced to rely on the Arcane for such materials—they decided to drop out of Realmspace.
So, again, the collective arrogance of the Netherese people -- and their desire for self-sufficiency -- was certainly a factor in their decision to abandon the exploration of Realmspace via spelljamming. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 01:41:04
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
[snip]we also know that archwizards as a group were generally disinterested in other planes...[snip]
I tend to disagree. There's hardly any records about the Netherese dabbling in planar experiments; but I wouldn't discount the possibility that, given their curiosity to all things arcane, many of them had done so. Larloch did, and still does. Karsus was busy with his preparation for the Avatar spell, so he left to his then student, Telamont Tanthul, the special task of delving deeper into the mysteries of the Demiplane of Shadow. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 23:42:12
-If you figure that so many of them were so powerful with magic that they oftentimes reshaped reality to suit them, I think the proportion of influential Netherese residents who had that kind attitude far outclassed those who didn't. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 23:40:36
A sour-grapes civilization? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 21:48:09
-Chiming in, I've also seen it as a situation where the Netherese were made to know that they "weren't welcome" because of their actions, and as a result, made the decision to 'forget it', similar to a little kid rationalizing that something/someone is stupid because they don't get it, or aren't liked, or whatever. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 16:50:04
Actually Sage, I have to go with wooly on this one.
They performed the most hellishly evil of all acts - they "experimented" (dissection? vivisection?) on sentients. They simply treated everything they met in space like 'an animal'.
Considering all the races in space, that was a BIG mistake.
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
Any relation to the french one?
The archmage is very loosely based on the character-types (Victorian psuedo-scientists) that the author favored, and the enclave has that type of vibe, and so I (after seeing how it looked) decided to pay homage to my inspiration in that fashion.
There is no physical (blood) relation between the two. 
I also realized that that is an example of something I have stated in another thread that I absolutely hated, and while I could comically add, "my rules don't apply to ME", the truth is, if any of my lore became canon, I would change the names of a lot of stuff (which is why I wish Brian James had conferred with me for the name 'Collinswood', which I borrowed from a TV show). My homebrew lore can have as much stupid crap as i want in it (and only my players have to put up with it), but if I were to write anything official, I wouldn't be so obviously derivative (derivative YES, obvious... NO). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 15:25:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is documented that they went into space, but that their behavior up there caused them to be most unwelcome. The Netherese were basically chased out of space.
I don't see it as the Netherese necessarily being "chased out of space."
Rather, as it was, I believe it was the arrogance of the Netherese that couldn't abide relying on the Arcane for just about all their realm's spelljamming needs. And, so, they abandoned the initiative altogether. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 10:53:57
It is documented that they went into space, but that their behavior up there caused them to be most unwelcome. The Netherese were basically chased out of space. |
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