| T O P I C R E V I E W |
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 15:09:49
Was just reading the creation story of the realms, and it mentioned that selune reached into the plane of fire to get light. Who created that plane? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 06:50:54
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
He wouldn't be very interested in creating other places anyways, even if he had the power.
Deities act more on whim than interest.
Seriously, though, he may have some purpose for creating it, if indeed it's he who did. For one, he could make them a prison for creatures in his crystal sphere that he deems 'undesirable.' |
| Korginard |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:21:28
I go with the idea that concepts of the planes are beyond mortal and possibly even most divine minds ability to comprehend. Any attempt at planular geography is indeed just one entities quest to understand what they cannot. Tree, Wheel, whatever, I think we agree for the most part that it's all subjective. Of course it's also tons of fun to speculate anyway.
I actually happen to like the cosmology offered in 4th edition. Now put away those ropes and torches and let me assure you that like so many others I think most of 4th Edition was utter rubbish. I simply have a philosophy of using what I like no matter where I find it.
4th Edition cosmology is about spheres. You have the world at the center, enclosed by a sphere that is halved by the Astral and the Elemental. Bright and Dark mirrors of the world lie parallel to it. Drawing on these basics I created the cosmology of my own campaign.
In the beginning there was void, the void was pierced by light and the two became the first entities. Light strove to fill the void, void sought to quench the light, and their struggle powered creation. Solid concepts like Fire, Stone, and Lightning gathered bellow while concepts such as Thought, Dreams, Justice and Malice floated upward, forming two distinct regions or planes, the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea.
The Elemental Chaos is a wild churning mess of elemental matter and energy. Here one finds rivers of stone, mountains of salt, oceans of fire, as well as expanses of air and gas. Primordials were the first creatures to rise here, but all manner of elemental and energetic forms of life followed. Primordials are sentient representations of elements and energy fueled by chaos on destructive impulses.
The Astral Sea is a placid ocean of Idea, thought and emotion. The Elder Gods rose here and each created a domain or pocket realm based on their own individual wants and desires. The Domains can be seen as islands in a vast ocean, but each is an enclosed reality all its own. The Elder Gods were ideas and ideals made flesh. The created any number of beings to serve them in their Domains.
The World was created by The Earth Goddess, who was unique in that she was a Primordial driven more to nurture than destroy. To escape the destructive tendencies of her fellows, she forged a pocket of space between the Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea which became the Prime Sphere. Here she created the Sun and planets. After much experimentation she created one last world and filled it with life. As she created this system of planets she discarded those parts that were too bright or too dark. In doing this she created the Shadowfell (Plane of Shadow/Ethereal) and Feywild (Fairy) which are bright and dark reflections of the Prime.
Primordials and gods find the world, start to fight over it.. yada yada and the history goes on. You get the idea ļ
The Elemental Chaos brings Limbo and the Elemental planes together, with the Abyss added later due to evil taking root deep within. I like the idea of its jumbled mess as opposed to segmented elemental planes. (Planes of Magma, Ooze and Ash??? REALLY?)
The Domains of the Astral Sea holds the place of all the other outer planes of the old ring. The idea is each Deity (or group of deities since some choose to share) has their own ideal paradise where their servants and practitioners reside. Arvandor is a good example, as most of the Elf Pantheon resides here.
The Shadowfell is a mix of the Plane of Shadow, the Ethereal, and the Negative Energy plane. Undead draw their power from here, and it is the source of shadow magic. Like the Plane of Shadow it mirrors the prime but is darker and more sinister. The Shadow Elves (Drow offshoot) thrive here.
The Feywild is a mix of the Beastlands , Fairy Realm, and Positive Plane, infused with life and magic. Plants and animals are bigger and stronger. It¡¦s mostly uncivilized, very wild, and supremely dangerous to the unwary. The most populous race is the Eladrin, an offshoot of Elves whose existence here has been infused with the life and magic here. Gnomes also originated here, as do all fey both good, evil, and in between. Underground regions are ruled by Fomorians and their servants (most notably Cyclopes)
It¡¦s by no means perfect, but offers yet another alternative to the Tree or Wheel.
As for how I would connect it and other campaign worlds? Portals. It's the most simple and elegant solution. Greyhawk, Faerun, Ebberon are all seperate realities that can be reached via portals which are basically tunnels/tears/rifts between them.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 18:46:13
More then vague - we have various sources giving us different versions of the same events (like THE Creation). In fact, it appears each race has its own version... as it should be.
Its doesn't matter what bits and pieces hold true or do not hold true - what matters is the fervent belief by large groups of people believing they are true for many generations. This is why 'religious dogma' gets presented in sources as 'fact', when in fact, no-one could possibly know all the facts, except whoever/whatever "started the ball rolling".
My entire point is that unless you were there, at the beginning (and only THE GOD would have been), no being could possibly know the entire story - even an over-over-overgod (ad infinitum). Each 'power' - and every large group of mortals - will draw its own conclusions from observable data available at the time of its existance, and twist that data to reflect their own perception and desires. This is why the whole concept of 'truth' becomes meaningless (which is as it should be in a game like D&D, where every DM needs to tweak stuff for his own purposes).
That, BTW, is what I meant by 'separate canon for each setting'. Its actually like "separate canon for each major group/race". Heck, every different beholder sub-type believes that its type is the 'true form', and you cannot argue with them otherwise (and only another beholder would try to). I have to apologize to Grey - I get a bit 'zealous' at times, and only re-reading old posts am I able to see how confrontational I come off occasionally. 
As for the question of whether the universe 'happened by accident', or by some 'great plan' - I would say that nearly all D&D (and RW myth/folklore) concerning 'the heavens' dictates that a LOT happened by uber-beings 'getting creative'. Even the accidents - like the Elven creation myth - have something of a plan to it. However, the first sentience - whatever that may be - HAD TO have happened by accident, since by definition, no other being could have planned it. AFAIK, no such 'All Powerful' (GOD) being exists in D&D lore, nor should it.
As for (parallel) evolution - who's to say that wasn't part of 'the design'? 
Funny how this thread came back around - I was just thinking about some of this stuff just before posting this (I was considering writing a gnomish piece - of all things!  - and then realized I would have to go back further and include all the Fey, which lead me back to my 'One World' theory). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 03:05:47
The origins of the planes were best addressed in Planescape lore, and even there TSR/WotC deliberately left them very vague. One (of several) plausible explanations are that the planes were created by the World Serpent, Jazirian and Ahriman.
Ao is an ultimate overgodly power, but only within his own sphere of Realmspace. He wouldn't be very interested in creating other places anyways, even if he had the power. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 01:05:19
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
I don't see the need for "parallel evolution" when the D&D cosmology is definitively the result of (semi)intelligent design.
How do we know that this is indeed the case? I don't recall it being noted as such in any planar source. |
| Veritas |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 00:06:07
I don't see the need for "parallel evolution" when the D&D cosmology is definitively the result of (semi)intelligent design.
Edit: Apologies for resurrecting the thread. It escaped my notice that the last posting date was November. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 23:28:15
I wanted to bow-out gracefully from this thread (my last post saying it all), but another thread lead me to issue #1 of The Dragon -
"In the infinity of cosmic probabilities there stretches an endless succession of Earths, this one being but one of the possible realities. Those in close proximity of our world are but little different from it, but countless alternatives to history exist, and as these co-worlds become more removed from this plane of reality so their resemblance becomes removed. There are, then, worlds which are gloriously superior to ours, some which are horribly worse, but most are merely different in some way. Far from our probability line is a world called by it's inhabitants Oerth. It is very similar to this Earth in many ways, but it is also quite different..."
----------Gary Gygax, in a preface he wrote for a piece, and the first time he named the World of Greyhawk.
There's no school like the old school, and canon doesn't get much older then that. ALL D&D worlds are just reflections of each other, and possibly, some 'true reality' that existed before time, and history forked-off into myriad possibilities. Major events travel outward from some imperceivable center like ripples on a pond. This is where we get our 'alternate canons' - each world holds its own truth of the same event. None are less true then the others. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 02:59:22
Isn't the "separate canon" issue rendered impotent by each DM who admits he accepts or denies (ie: judges) which canon will be used within his gaming? I accept the Spellplague as canon, for example, although I completely reject the possibility or magnitude of that event anywhere within my game setting. It doesn't stop me from enjoying FR fiction where the Spellplague is a necessary part of the background.
Insofar as "official" canon ... I'm of the opinion that if it's got the trademark D&D and TSR / WotC branding all over it then it is canon, regardless of the format or the content. Having said that, yes there are contradictions, and outcast lore, and even some bizarre idiocy here and there, since D&D products are something of a sprawling beast spreading across time and space and creators and companies and audiences and markets. To be honest, if one always disregards everything prior and subsequent to the edition of choice then canon generally works out quite easily. D&D is a game, and the Realms are a setting, enjoy them for what they are instead of hating what they aren't. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 23:50:50
Separate sets of canon exist for EACH setting. This MUST be the case because several settings claim to be the 'birthplace' for various races.
I do agree about George - he 's probably forgotten more then I will ever know. THO of course knows more then any of us here (designers included), and only Ed could top her (he is like the Ao to her Mystra).
I had a lot more here, but have decided to simply agree to disagree. I need to take another break - my new, positive attitude is beginning to lose its luster. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 19:12:08
quote:
Gray Richardson
Separate sets of canon? <snipped and butchered> Your theory may be just as valid as mine.
Agreed absolutely 100%, your writings are concise and eloquent, Gray. I hereby promote ye to Head Poobah Master of Realmslore, alongside such notables as Krashos and The Lovely Hooded One herself. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 17:47:40
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I don't think I'm likely to ever agree with your notion about there being a "prime wheel" or that the Wheel is some sort of "true cosmos" or meta-cosmos. My personal theory is that Toril's Great Tree has always been that way, but that it's connected by portals, gates, rifts and soft borders to Greyhawk's Great Wheel to such an extent that when characters in older books and sources traveled around in the Wheel, it was because they crossed over from the Great Tree side--possibly without even realizing it.
And I just don't buy that the 1e/2e Great wheel, which was the Planescape setting (technically an over-setting), ONLY took place in Greyhawk. That makes little sense to me.
It also means what few crossovers we had between PS and FR in 2e didn't happen, thus invalidating canon, which you claim to be supporting. No matter how you slice it, the Great Tree was a fabrication of 3e - there is NO way of getting around that, unless you invalidate gobs of previous lore.
To say the Great tree is just how the Realms-folk view things now works. There was no tree (aside from Yggsdrasil), and there is no tree now - it is merely a metaphor for how FR philosophers see the local planes align.
Personally, I don't even think the Great Wheel exists - at least not in the purely physical sense we see it laid out. Each plane is separate, and some of them have VAST portals connecting them. Otherwise, how can an infinite plane have borders? They don't, plain and simple. When normal beings encounter a gate that is a thousand miles wide, several miles deep and several miles high, they come to the conlusion they have reached the end of the plane. When they move through across the 'border' - in reality the uber-gate - they think their hypothesis stands correct.
Godly domains are the same as demi-planes: they are blisters that have sheared-off another plane, which can exist for an eternity, be sucked back into the original plane, break-off and become a proto-plane (a semi-sentient autonomous demi-plane), or even be shifted to another plane and re-anchored - a trick that requires immense power, and one that was pulled off by Lolth during the WotSQ (leaving behind a psychic 'residue', which mortals see as an abandoned/ruined version of the demiplane).
Planes exist in 4 (or more) dimensional space, and don't follow the rules the RW does - ANY cosmology that can be imagined (without going insane) - has to be flawed for that reason. No model is correct, not even the Great Wheel. It is what we mortals "can handle".
And 'The Truth' of things changes all the time - the universe is a vibrant, living thing, never standing still and never being fully understood (except, perhaps, by whoever created it, which is several levels above gods & Overpowers, I would imagine). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 09:31:26
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Separate sets of canon? Not sure I buy into that. If it's published it's canon. If it's not published, then it's just interpretation or speculation.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean I also agree to all things made canon. The readers' interpretation sometimes makes more sense than what's published. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 08:51:10
Separate sets of canon? Not sure I buy into that. If it's published it's canon. If it's not published, then it's just interpretation or speculation. WotC designers and authors have stated that there's a rule of construction that, where there's conflicts between lore, the newer lore takes precedence over older lore.
Some people take such conflicts to be an inexplicable "retcon" and take umbrage at the presumption that WotC is saying "it has always been that way" when it obviously hasn't. But I prefer to try to find some sort of explanation to harmonize the lore so that the old lore and the new lore can both be true, like in the words of Obi-Wan who said "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."
Not that people should be slavishly devoted to canon. I was always fond of that quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." Don't let canon get in the way of a good story or campaign idea. Canon's just a jumping off point, a guide to good gaming. Once you know the rules, you can feel free to ignore them.
And I certainly don't claim to be more canon than thou. I don't feel like my interpretations or conjectures are necessarily more valid than anyone else's. I just like to offer them for people to think on, and accept or reject as they like.
I don't think I'm likely to ever agree with your notion about there being a "prime wheel" or that the Wheel is some sort of "true cosmos" or meta-cosmos. My personal theory is that Toril's Great Tree has always been that way, but that it's connected by portals, gates, rifts and soft borders to Greyhawk's Great Wheel to such an extent that when characters in older books and sources traveled around in the Wheel, it was because they crossed over from the Great Tree side--possibly without even realizing it.
But I'm not saying you're wrong. Go with your gut. Your theory may be just as valid as mine. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 04:59:26
All I was saying is that we do not have to disagree, we do not have to invalidate Ed's own take on things, and we certainly don't have to retcon Planescape material.
ALL of it still works within the model I proposed - there once was one, and now there are many. The Great Wheel IS the 'main' cosmology, because we were told that back in 2e (actually, it was the only cosmology, but that fits with what I was saying). Its so much simpler to say "things change", and some spheres might have out-dated information. Or, mortal concepts of the Oververse (the Outer Planes) are changed by changes to the Planes themselves, so that what was true yesterday might not be true today. Just as reality (and gods) is altered by mortal beliefs, so to does it work the other way around - the connection to 'the divine' is a two-way street. We have canon concerning Ao which proves that all the mortals in a sphere can be made to forget things (or made to remember them differently).
Anyhow, this is why we can have separate sets of canon for a universe connected by the Great wheel; the concept of 'closed' spheres was introduced to us (Athas being the first), which opened the doors for individual mini-cosmologies for each setting. Not every setting has them, but the ones that do would still be connected to greater D&D cosmology through the wheel (note that even Athas fell prey to Ravenloft's realms-stealing ways). The majority of folks in many of those spheres are probably completely unaware that theirs isn't the only cosmology - they would think their own is the end-all, be-all.
And in 3e, folks 'forgot' about the Great Wheel. I think this was the eventual outcome of Ao's forced sphere-wide amnesia of himself, but thats just conjecture. In any case, the Wheel was never common knowledge, even in spheres that only use the wheel. The multiverse is a topic for philosophers, madmen, and priests (and most are all three) - the common man rarely thinks about the world beyond his cornfield, let alone other worlds. Once the main cosmology was forgotten (a running theme in FR, BTW), the folks of Toril had to imagine the godly domains connected somehow, and so the tree was born. The reality is, there is no tree -its just a model some philosopher came up with, and everyone else agreed with.
To me, fantasy cosmologies are just like theories in physics - most folks just believe the most popular theory, until a better theory comes along. I've been alive long enough to have experienced dozens of stated-as-fact theories of everything, and I'll probably be around for at least a dozen more. The Tree is just the 'flavor of the month', and it may linger, or it may go... but the planes will still be there.
Everyone lies, and gods lie most of all. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 04:45:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does Ao follow certain measures to ensure that no god under his turf could ever ascend to Overgod?
Oh, I really doubt this. I think it is assumed that when a god has maxed out his divine ranks, and spent a few ages at DVR 20, that the god will eventually ascend to overdivine status. Ao would probably encourage this, even sponsor the ascension if the god were "ready." In some ways, I think Ao is like a father to all the gods of Realmspace, and wants to see them grow and develop, but most of all to get along. But in other ways he is like a curmudgeonly grandfather shouting "you kids stay off my lawn!"quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Isn't that one of his jobs to maintain the delicate Balance in the space that is his area of responsibility?
Job? or a hobby? I don't know if it is his assigned duty, it may be. Or he may have other duties as an overgod but can't help keeping an eye on his creation in his spare time. At the very least, he seems to have an interest in keeping the "kids" from burning down the house while he is away on vacation.quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Did it ever happen when one of the greater deities came close to ascending to Overgod status? Other than Cyric's mad atttempt, of course.
There is no documented case of it in Realmspace. There was a dubious (possibly apocryphal) attempt by Vecna, in the adventure module Die Vecna Die!.
Please note that becoming a greater god or becoming the head of a pantheon is nothing like becoming an overgod. Overgods are something else than gods. Once a god ascends to overdivinity, he passes beyond the concerns of the material world. He is (usually) never heard from again. In many ways it's like a death; it's assumed that the overgod passes on to some greater purpose beyond the cosmos, up in higher planes or dimensions. Only in a couple known cases (possibly 5 total) are overgods known to have any remaining presence in the cosmology they created.
I imagine that a god cannot ascend to overgod status without the help of a sponsor overgod, or approval of the overgod community, and not without successfully completing the above mentioned cosmic quest or project.
But if a god were "ready" and has paid his dues, doing time as a greater god for a few ages, then I imagine the community of overgods would welcome him into the fold.
Of all the possible candidates, I suspect Annam may be the closest. It is said that the Allfather of the giant pantheon has cloistered himself away in meditation and solitude. Some think he is despondent and mourning the death of Othea, but I think it is likely he is preparing for or undergoing his overdivine ascension. He has spread his children, the giants, on countless worlds and has probably qualified to move up. Other gods that may be close to overascending are Corellon, Moradin and possibly Gruumsh.
In addition to creating a crystal sphere, I surmise that another possible project that could qualify a god to overascend is for racial deities to spread their chosen race to a critical mass of worlds. I believe this is a major impetus for why there are so many elves, dragons, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and giants on all the D&D worlds. Their racial gods are working hard to spread their races from world to world.
You know, that could explain the elf genocide on the world of Ortho. Not that humans need a good excuse to commit genocide, but it could have been a plot perpetrated by rival gods to trip up Corellon and keep him from overascending. Not to mention the Threnody tragedy. Both worlds are examples of efforts made to exterminate all the elves on the planet. Hey, maybe it's Lolth herself who is trying to sabotage her former husband's bid for overgod status. Just a thought. But Gruumsh is as likely a candidate. And I'm sure Corellon has countless other enemies working against him too. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 03:20:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
Does Ao follow certain measures to ensure that no god under his turf could ever ascend to Overgod? Isn't that one of his jobs to maintain the delicate Balance in the space that is his area of responsibility? Did it ever happen when one of the greater deities came close to ascending to Overgod status? Other than Cyric's mad atttempt, of course.
But then one might ask why the powerful goddess of magic is destroyed over and over again.
Perhpas Mystra came close to ascending to overgod that Ao has to press the button once in a while to shut her down/reboot her. Besides, wasn't it mentioned [by Ed himself?] that she's the most powerful of all the greater gods? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 18:29:06
One might also ask why Ao tolerates the lesser gods, or indeed the multitudes who believe in them. But these questions might ignite all sorts of theological misunderstandings which WotC would wisely choose to avoid. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 18:22:20
quote:
Dennis
Does Ao follow certain measures to ensure that no god under his turf could ever ascend to Overgod? Isn't that one of his jobs to maintain the delicate Balance in the space that is his area of responsibility? Did it ever happen when one of the greater deities came close to ascending to Overgod status? Other than Cyric's mad atttempt, of course.
But then one might ask why the powerful goddess of magic is destroyed over and over again. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 07:26:58
Does Ao follow certain measures to ensure that no god under his turf could ever ascend to Overgod? Isn't that one of his jobs to maintain the delicate Balance in the space that is his area of responsibility? Did it ever happen when one of the greater deities came close to ascending to Overgod status? Other than Cyric's mad atttempt, of course. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 07:18:56
There are likely many, many overgods. 3e lore supports the notion that overgods are to gods as epic level characters are to regular player characters. Gods have divine ranks, which in 3e was divided into 20 levels. Entities that had 21 or more divine ranks were said to be overgods.
But overgods are not just more powerful gods, they are a different class of entity altogether. They no longer require worship, and it is hinted that their concerns are orders of magnitude beyond the material world. In most cases they are forgotten completely, and it has been documented that Ao has made the general public forget he ever existed.
I think in most cases, overgods are as far removed from mortals as we are to ants. Overgods don't even think about mortals, as their responsibilities lie in higher dimensions and with concepts that are inconceivable to men.
The only two known overgods are Ao and the High God of Krynn. It is suspected that the Lady of Pain, Ptah, and Anubis may qualify as overgods as well.
But it seems likely that every crystal sphere in the multiverse may have been created by an overgod. I imagine that creating a crystal sphere is like a PhD thesis or an Eagle Scout project for an overgod candidate. They have to complete some kind of cosmic work or quest to qualify for ascension. And if creating crystal spheres is only one of many different kinds of projects or quests they can attempt, then it follows there could be multitudes of overgods out there in the beyond operating in the higher realms.
Ao is probably a lower level overgod. Something like between overdivine rank 21-25. A demi-overgod. Just like demi-gods (or exarchs in 4e parlance) tend to serve a higher-up god, so too might demi-overgods serve higher rank overgods. In fact, Ao's superior has been documented.
Ao probably maintains closer ties to his creation than other overgods precisely because he is new at the job and still retains some vestige of his humanity (or divinity). We believe Ao to be a relatively new overgod, as Ed Greenwood mentioned in one of his posts that it is commonly thought by Faerun's sages that Toril is around 70,000 years old, give or take. Not that anyone knows for sure, but that's the prevailing theory, anyway.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 02:45:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
"The Master" which Ao serves ---didn't he/she/it create something more colossal than a Crystal Sphere?
It's probably not something we can ever properly ever known. Nor should we, as I see it.
Conceivably, "the Master" created the entire universe within which the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace exists. But taking our own knowledge of the universe of our material plane into consideration for a moment, even we don't know the exact purpose and/or function of the universe [and, possibly, beyond] in purely scientific terms.
I can't see why it would be any different for the Realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 18:20:38
I've reconciled the Tree and the Wheel to my own satisfaction by assuming that the planes reached by the Tree are subplanes or domains on the planes of the Wheel. I'll grant that my planar lore is weak, but this seems, to me, to be an easy fix, and one easy to apply to this particular retcon. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 17:55:57
"The Master" which Ao serves ---didn't he/she/it create something more colossal than a Crystal Sphere? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 06:13:56
That last bit from Gray, above, is usually how I work things when it comes to the subject of utilising material for both the Great Wheel and the Tree in the same campaign. I prefer to interpret both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place' -- often relying heavily on the words of Ed for inspiration:-
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
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| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 05:13:51
Shemmy, if anyone prefers to use the Wheel, then they should go ahead and do that. It's a great setting, and I had a lot of fun playing around in the Wheel in 2nd edition. I have no beef with the Wheel, except only that it is not canon for the Realms.
I also like the Great Tree, and I personally think it works better for the Realms because it is unique to the Realms and follows Realms history and culture.
As a Realms Fan, I have no problems with complex continuity and evolving lore--which I think is a point of pride for many Realms fans. I enjoy very much trying to reconcile 3e with 2e lore, and 4e for that matter. And it's really not as hard as you make it out. But the seeming conflicts are fun to try and figure out.
Because the Great Tree is canon (so sayeth Ed) it is what I prefer to go by. I could no more use the Wheel than I could insert Jedi knights into my campaign or Sauron, or the X-men. All of those may be great settings, but they just aren't the Realms to me and I have no interest in deviating from canon.
But that's just me. Every game should be fun for the DM and the players involved, and if you like the Great Wheel or like to mix up your Realms in interesting ways, then go for it. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 05:11:26
Convergent evolution, yes. Similar forms? No problem with that.
But not parallel evolution in the sense of exactly the same forms generated through random mutation on world after world after world. That's so improbable that the notion seems just silly.
But I completely agree that if you throw in magic and/or gods then that works just fine for me. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 03:26:45
Convergent evolution has been observed in many species on our own world, sometimes form is defined by function. "Magic rich" environments like Realmspace stimulate and encourage diversity and depth of species, it seems to me that if numerous sophonts could evolve on one world then it's probable that many would have superficially similar parameters. Perhaps humaniform creatures are a simple and successful template, if so then it's no surprise so many other races exist which are similar.
If one considers the infinite multitudes of creatures native to the infinite planes, and their migrations, then these probabilities of similar (even identical) species become almost inevitable. The chances of humans evolving simultaneously in many places might be infinitesimal small, but it's multiplied against countlessly infinite infinitudes, the result is it's bound to happen all over the place.
If one considers that such species are shaped by the design of greater beings rather than random natural selection, then really any possibility can be an absolute certainty, no matter how improbable it might otherwise be, and no explanation need be given beyond that a power has willed it. If the gods want humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragons then so be it.
There are also always tinkering wizards, magical mutations, and all sorts of other methods by which the parameters for any species can be designed or altered. Again, the presence of "magic" defies all the rules of biology and genetics we understand in our world; they do not necessarily govern the shaping of life in D&D worlds. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 03:15:38
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I got a headache from reading this.....
Which is why I just stick with the Great Wheel, avoiding the continuity headaches that 3e introduced and 4e tried to outdo by replacing it with the PoL stuff. Design not intended or tailored for a specific setting shouldn't influence and negate swathes of that campaign setting if it had material of its own already in place, it's poor practice. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 03:00:50
I got a headache from reading this..... |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 02:13:27
I think I'll stick with the Big Bang Theory. |
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