| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 10:03:34
This is not a rant(at least i think so) but rather a sort of want to find out about certain things in dnd. I hope that the sages and scribes out there can illuminate my problem or problems at it is...
First off, about liches. I know that there are spells that can help a lich separate his phylactery and essentially provide him with a bonus to help stave off oblivion. With the spell Aumvor's fragmented phylactery, what i would like to know is that is it applicable for pcs, and if so how? If a phylactery were a necklace or amulet that i could understand, maybe the links of the chain would be imbued with the lich's soul but what about a gemstone, if a gem shaped like a bar were to be cast with the fragmented phylactery spell how would it separate, would a piece of it simply fall off? And another thing, for Aumvor whose phylactery is a skeleton which has been separated 206 times(since its a skeleton!!!) where would he reform at. Which bone would he pop out of? And the question is also posted to my earlier query about fragmenting your own phylactery, where would you pop out of?
For my second question, the new 4e wizards and sorcerers has me stumped. I cant seem to make head or tail of it. I mean i do like the whole idea of dropping the memorising spells thing but now it seems like they bungled up the spells of dnd. You would have to be a certain level like 29 to cast circle of death???(at least i think so but bear with me, i mean im sure that you found the level with which to cast a certain spell to be a bit ludicrous) And i read 4e races and classes and they have separated the wizard?? Now with illusionist, necromancer and such but they do not seem all that powerful at least no so much to me. With sorcerers getting their own spell list how does that work, if you were a cosmic sorcerer(its a spell source thing i believe, if anyone would like to clarify please do so) would that mean you could not learn dragon magic spell or something like that.
Either way i simply would like all of you to just help me understand dnd a little bit more and you can all put your 2 copper's worth of opinions in too. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 13:46:29
Thanks Bladewind! |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 15:11:25
I'd advise getting a copy of Epic Level Handbook and read it thoroughly before beginning play. You could also try the d20 SRD site for a comprehensive gathering of D&D's epic rules. It's not terribly different from regular D&D play, but the sheer amount of options a 21st level character has can grind play to a halt.
The way to get 13th level arcane spells is found in the Epic Level Handbook in the Epic Feat section. You need to pick the feat Improved Spell Capacity 4 times to be able to cast 13th level spells. This means the character can apply meta-magic enhancers with up to 4 levels over his 9th level spells, as true 10th level spells don't exist anymore (ever since the goddes of magic Mystryl banned their use after Karsus' Folly and Netherils fall). An example is Aumvor the Undying, a Netherese Arcanist lich whose able to cast a quickened meteor swarm (a 4 level meta-magicked 9th level spell). You'd need at least 6 levels of epic wizard to be able to achieve a similar spellcasting level. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 13:06:51
Thanks Salacar.
Recently a friend of mine thought it would be cool to start an epic campaign. We debated on it and decided to use the base classes from our original campaign(one we already finishing with) Basically starting from level,
Rogue 21
Paladin 21
Wizard 21
Ranger 21
My friend(DM) and I wanted a epic campaign that finally ends somewhere in the Lower Planes and the reason he confided in me is because he wants me to be the BBEG! I said ok but what is my motivation, because the others are good friends and I don't want to hurt them. He said I was supposed to be a descendant(or refugee who is slightly long lived due to magic) of Netheril. He wants me to bring in an army of fiends to conquer a part of the world and raise a new empire of magic with the supposed BBEG actually trying to stop me,
Rogue/Cultist of the Shattered Peak/sorcerer,
and another BBEG archfiend just wanting to come to the Material Plane to kill everyone, so he wants me to take Netherese Arcanist...
I read an earlier thread about it, how do I qualify with a 13th level spell? Most of our campaigns don't go that far, so first off I think our DM is going way overboard. He just said I should do take the class and I agreed but how do I?(Help!)
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| Salacar |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 09:40:56
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
OK thanks for answering my query. I have another question though pertaining to some of the characters like Larloch and such. When I looked up in the books they have levels in epic! How does that work and can it work for pcs to?
It pretty much just means that he's a lvl 32 character, 32 levels in Wizard, 12 of them being past lvl 20 and therefore Epic Levels.
I'm guessing the reason why it's written like that is because Lords of Darkness came out before the Epic Level Handbook for 3E.
As for your second question, yes, PCs can play Epic Level characters, it's basically just a character with more than 20 levels, see the Epic Level Handbook for the rules regarding it. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 04:56:12
OK thanks for answering my query. I have another question though pertaining to some of the characters like Larloch and such. When I looked up in the books they have levels in epic! How does that work and can it work for pcs to? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Sep 2011 : 10:47:38
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Wooly Rupert, I thought that as a specialist you could not cast spells from schools that you choose as opposition and for a red wizard you have 3 schools of opposition, so does that mean with more time a wizard living or undead could learn spells from schools of opposition or the fact that some of them can cast spells from schools of opposition its just for the plot?
It's plot. In game, being a lich just means you get to hang around longer than non-liches. That's the only rule it allows you to break: your lifespan. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 Sep 2011 : 05:20:49
Wooly Rupert, I thought that as a specialist you could not cast spells from schools that you choose as opposition and for a red wizard you have 3 schools of opposition, so does that mean with more time a wizard living or undead could learn spells from schools of opposition or the fact that some of them can cast spells from schools of opposition its just for the plot? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 11:36:42
Becoming undead does not increase or effect prior class limitations unless the template says so.
However if a wizard is not a specialist and Int. enough, can learn all spells that exist if can find them under 2nd Edition. Would of course need high Int. and able to at least cast 9th level spells. Getting Int. high enough itself is a problem, finding all spells in the Realms and taking time to learn them however I would think harder. *wink* |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 10:49:55
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
But Wooly Ruper does that mean that a specialist wizard like say Szass Tam who is also a Red Wizard subject to having 3 schools of opposition would only be able to cast spells from 5 available schools of magic?
Without knowing what schools he banned, does that mean he cant cast from those schools even after becoming a lich?(my reasoning is that somehow becoming undead more specifically a lich broadens the mind to learn spells from schools of opposition)
It's a limitation of the class. Becoming a lich doesn't mean someone suddenly learns how to pick pockets, or swing a sword... All that becoming a lich does for you is give you more time to study, not automatically increase your knowledge and/or allow you to break the rules of your classes. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 06:39:47
Azuth, as the god of wizards and spellcasting, is the only wizard who could possibly know all spells. As of 4E he's kinda dead, though. Mystra's focus seems to be the magic itself, she can probably directly manipulate her Weave to manifest any spell effect she likes without any actual knowledge of the spells themselves, at least not in the same terms understood by wizards.
There's too many spells which are unique to particular groups or individuals, in many cases only a single copy within the spellbook and minds of their creators. Magic-users like Elminster, Khelben, and the Simbul may have shared innumerable spells, but they keep their most potent spells only to themselves and - perhaps - their most trusted and proven close friends. Other magic-users like Manshoon, Szass Tam, and Larloch possess all manner of spells known only by name (if at all) to the world. Spying and scrying on individuals of this order is nearly impossible; they are not only superior spellcrafters but they've also had many centuries to devise complex layers of defenses, and in many cases they are actively protected by Mystra herself.
Elves (and drow), fey/faerie, dragons (metallic, chromatic, etc), phaerimm, liches, shades, aquatic races, shapechangers, giths, fiends (and cambions, tieflings, etc), celestials (and aasimar), gnomes, and many others have devised spells which can only function for a spellcaster with biology or psychology specific to their race. Elves, dragons, humans (and liches), and most likely phaerimm and sharn have also devised complex alternate systems of spell magic and rituals which are forbidden or simply impossible for outsiders to ever learn.
Red Wizards of Thay (and their Zulkirs), War Wizards of Cormyr, Rashemi Witches, Zakharan Sha'ir and Sorcerors, Wu Jen from Shou, Mulhorandi Elementalists, Shadovar, and many other groups - especially the most secretive, evil, threatened, or threatening ones - have also devised many unique spells which are effectively impossible for any outsider to learn or cast. Not only that, but there were all the spells devised by similar groups in the past; Netheril, Myth Drannor, many many others.
Unique spells are often recorded in particular tomes ... some almost as powerful as artifacts. They are invariably extremely dangerous; if not because of the (unique) magical protections placed upon them then because of the value they have to wizards and kings who will spare no effort nor expense in retrieving them. Some such books are even given nicknames like "Xerox's Folio of One Thousand Assassins" because of the trouble they bring to their possessors.
Then of course there are entire worlds and planes of existence beyond the Realms, each with unique spells and magic systems. Learning all the unique magic from Oerth or Athas or Ravenloft or Spelljammer or Mechanus or the Abyss would itself be nearly impossible.
The list goes on and on. A spellcaster might certainly be able to learn all the spells printed in, say, the Player's Handbook. But learning all spells is not. Even a lich dedicated to millennia of research (and raiding, theft, harvesting, mind-reading, purchasing) cannot possibly obtain knowledge of every spell before he dissolves into dust. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 05:47:51
But Wooly Ruper does that mean that a specialist wizard like say Szass Tam who is also a Red Wizard subject to having 3 schools of opposition would only be able to cast spells from 5 available schools of magic?
Without knowing what schools he banned, does that mean he cant cast from those schools even after becoming a lich?(my reasoning is that somehow becoming undead more specifically a lich broadens the mind to learn spells from schools of opposition) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 14:57:58
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Hey guys. Was wondering something and will post it to another of my topics too but just in case nobody answers, i was wondering what you guys have to say...
In 3.5e(not 4e because we do not play that(my friends anyway)) i became a specialist wizard.already epic and becoming a lich, so my question is if you become a lich are you still subject to having banned/forbidden schools of opposition?
Comments and answers are appreciated!
Thanks guys!
Why wouldn't they be? A specialist wizard is a specialist wizard, regardless of race or mortal status. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 09:53:36
Hey guys. Was wondering something and will post it to another of my topics too but just in case nobody answers, i was wondering what you guys have to say...
In 3.5e(not 4e because we do not play that(my friends anyway)) i became a specialist wizard.already epic and becoming a lich, so my question is if you become a lich are you still subject to having banned/forbidden schools of opposition?
Comments and answers are appreciated!
Thanks guys! |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 02 Aug 2011 : 09:05:36
But if a rough estimation with the wizard achieving lichdom or immortality to learn the Art, how high would his level be? in that case, considering that he has learn all the magic there is to know |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 08:32:15
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
At what level does a wizard learns all the spells there is?
I echo Eltheron's point. Perhaps even Mystra herself does not know all the spells. That's why she encourages wizards to invent more...
THIS is a discussion somewhat related to the answer to your question. You might want to read some interesting points raised by our fellow scribes there. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 03:05:16
1. The only way I know (in D&D) for a lich to have more than one phylactery is for the lich to cast "Aumvor's fragmented phylactery". Perhaps someone else has additional information, I'm not sure.
2. No wizard "knows all the spells" in D&D. Knowledge of specific spells (or rituals, in 4th edition) requires that the wizard actually obtains and learns each spell.
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| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 02:43:37
At what level does a wizard learns all the spells there is? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 21 Jul 2011 : 13:31:33
Ok which chapter in Elminster in Hell and could you help me with my questions on the lich having two or more phylacteries query?
Thanks! |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 08:11:28
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Oh ok, but i wanted to know also is it possible for a zombie to able to remain animated without the head and if so, is it commanded mentally and still able to carry out its animator's wishes?
Another question about the liche(love'em to undeath) when a lich's body is destroyed and his soul goes to his phylactery, well this is where it gets puzzling. From different accounts, I know that the lich returns by possessing a body, maybe a clone of his former body or some such but there is also some evidence where a lich's undead spirit creates the body. How does this work? Do both methods count or only one does the trick of returning the lich to unlife?
Maybe in the undead spirit creation case, the lich has to expend more magicl energy to recreate his body, whereas possessing one takes minimal effort. What do you think?
You might want to read both Ed's piece on liches in the original (2E) Lords of Darkness accessory if you can get your hands on it, and the more pertinent narrative snapshot of Laeral of Silverymoon (not the Seven Sister) that he provides in his novel "Elminster in Hell". That story gives a great look at how a lich can assume a new form.
-- George Krashos
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| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 09:47:20
Oh, is it also possible for a lich to have two or more phylacteries, and im not saying to split it like Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery but like to have actually another soul-hidey place.
Like your original phylactery is a gemstone, and you make another gemstone your phylactery also, is that possible? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 14:10:01
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Oh ok, but i wanted to know also is it possible for a zombie to able to remain animated without the head and if so, is it commanded mentally and still able to carry out its animator's wishes?
I'd suppose so as I don't think it's like Night of the Living Dead where the brain-stem holds it all together. Basically you can probably spin it however you wanted but a decapitated zombie doesn't automatically drop it to 0 HP or kill it outright in my book (unless your playing in a game where it does).
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Another question about the liche(love'em to undeath) when a lich's body is destroyed and his soul goes to his phylactery, well this is where it gets puzzling. From different accounts, I know that the lich returns by possessing a body, maybe a clone of his former body or some such but there is also some evidence where a lich's undead spirit creates the body. How does this work? Do both methods count or only one does the trick of returning the lich to unlife?
Maybe in the undead spirit creation case, the lich has to expend more magicl energy to recreate his body, whereas possessing one takes minimal effort. What do you think?
I've always assumed that the Lich manifested it's body from nothing, as in it's held together by strands of magic rather than the requirement of a corporeal body. The 4E rules are unclear on this and I'm away from my Open Grave book. Maybe the truth lies therein? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 05:07:16
Oh ok, but i wanted to know also is it possible for a zombie to able to remain animated without the head and if so, is it commanded mentally and still able to carry out its animator's wishes?
Another question about the liche(love'em to undeath) when a lich's body is destroyed and his soul goes to his phylactery, well this is where it gets puzzling. From different accounts, I know that the lich returns by possessing a body, maybe a clone of his former body or some such but there is also some evidence where a lich's undead spirit creates the body. How does this work? Do both methods count or only one does the trick of returning the lich to unlife?
Maybe in the undead spirit creation case, the lich has to expend more magicl energy to recreate his body, whereas possessing one takes minimal effort. What do you think? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 10:57:10
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
They dont allow head chops?
I mean it is a role-playing game
Oh it's allowed, just not a requirement of killing a specific creature, like with the Vampire in v3.5 where you had to chop off his head and fill his mouth with holy wafers. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 10:50:55
They dont allow head chops?
I mean it is a role-playing game |
| Diffan |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 22:53:14
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Thanks though i did not see the artificier thing coming, i thought that wizards could do it maybe with a wish spell or something like that.
Wish spells do not exist in 4E (and probably for good reason). That being said, a wizard could do this with a Ritual and a construct's body but the Artificer is another way of doing it too.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Thanks though i did not see the artificier thing coming, i thought that wizards could do it maybe with a wish spell or something like that.
In Order of the Stick, I dont know if any of you read it but the protagonist(fighter) is riding with the antagonist(lich sorcerer) on a zombie silver dragon. He cuts off the dragons head but it doesn't plummit. Instead the lich explains that the zombie is mentally controlled and if he wants it to bank left and climb it just does. In dnd is this actually possible, cutting off a ghoul's head i understand you kill it and its dead(again) but cutting a zombie's head off?
PS the comic page that im referring to is 441.
Hmm, the decapitation of a creature's head serves in destorying Vampires (that I know of) using 3E mechanics. 4E doesn't attempt to make the PCs perform this style of "slaying". |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 10:05:20
Thanks though i did not see the artificier thing coming, i thought that wizards could do it maybe with a wish spell or something like that.
In Order of the Stick, I dont know if any of you read it but the protagonist(fighter) is riding with the antagonist(lich sorcerer) on a zombie silver dragon. He cuts off the dragons head but it doesn't plummit. Instead the lich explains that the zombie is mentally controlled and if he wants it to bank left and climb it just does. In dnd is this actually possible, cutting off a ghoul's head i understand you kill it and its dead(again) but cutting a zombie's head off?
PS the comic page that im referring to is 441. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 21:15:59
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Thanks Diffan.
In 4e is is possible, when a high level pc like say in epic adventures or games, to use a golem or metal body. This question is something recent that i have been thinking about, since rereading unholy many times. The necromancer So-Kehur is merely a brain in a steel body, all i want to know is whether its possible for a pc to do the same without having to resort to a dm allowing it, I mean by that time surely an epic character could do it without the dm's consent right??
Without referring to my books, one way of accomplishing something similar is to take the Self-Forged paragon path (Eberron's Player's Guide) though it requirs being an Artifier or at least having the Artificer multiclass feat. This gives you mechanical limbs and the like but you could probably reflavor it however you wish so long as you remain within the power/abilities of the Paragon Path.
Another avenue to take is to make a Ritual (which would be Homebrew) that transfers your "essence", "spirit", or "being" (take your pick) and placing it within a Construct like a Warforged. This would allow your sentinence to remain intact while being inside a living construct. You, of course, would retain all the benefits of your class, but your Race would technically change to Warforged and thus gain all the benefits of that races but lose all the benefits of your previous race.
Those would be the two ways I'd explain how to gain a metal body. One is more PC friendly and requires less "DM approvial" since there's nothing tweaking the mechincs of the game. The other requires a homebrew Ritual but I think that would be relatively small ripple on the over-all balance of the game. It does require DM fiat though.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I don't know the 4e rules, so I don't know if there is an ability, spell, Epic Destiny, or anything to that effect (I am guessing there isn't), but nothing a player does should be without the DM's consent.
To an extent, I wholly agree. A DM should be made aware of what your planning so that he can help you along with the story. I also feel a DM should be encouraging the to PC to get creative and as long as the two can work out any story problems or mechanical once, it should come along nicely.
But I feel that the rules of 4E are much better balanced that it requires less DM over-view. I don't have to worry much about what Paragon Paths pcs are gonna take that will completly break the mechanics side of the game. There is just simply less of that in 4E than in prior editions (I'm speaking from my vast experience of v3.5 here). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 18:16:13
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
...I mean by that time surely an epic character could do it without the dm's consent right??
-I don't know the 4e rules, so I don't know if there is an ability, spell, Epic Destiny, or anything to that effect (I am guessing there isn't), but nothing a player does should be without the DM's consent. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 10:32:14
Thanks Diffan.
In 4e is is possible, when a high level pc like say in epic adventures or games, to use a golem or metal body. This question is something recent that i have been thinking about, since rereading unholy many times. The necromancer So-Kehur is merely a brain in a steel body, all i want to know is whether its possible for a pc to do the same without having to resort to a dm allowing it, I mean by that time surely an epic character could do it without the dm's consent right?? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 12:46:21
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Thanks Diffan and Theiran.
What exactly is the power difference of liches against vampires in 4e?
I mean with heroes of shadow we now have a vampire class and vryloka race, but the lich has its own player template too, i mean on the wotc website for pcs that is.
What is the general difference in power, skills or abilities?
Well there isn't anything "technically" for PCs in regards to Liches. There is a template in the DMG that could be applied to a PC but it makes the character horribly imbalanced with the bonuses to certain criteria, defenses, and so forth. You could take some of the elements of the Template and turn them into a Paragon Path, accessable by specific classes such as the Wizard/Mage, Sorcerer, Warlock/Binder.
The difference is that Vampires are very straight forward in their abilities. The class only has a few choices at specific levels that a PC can choose between. The rest are just abilities and powers that are shoe-horned into the theme of a Vampire. But the class has features from 1st thru 30th level. The lich, by comparison, doesn't have any of that. It's abilities are tied in with a template (which adds onto a current character) and doesn't have anything really progressive in their powers.
Think of it in terms like this: the Vampire is it's own class, with levels and specific feats. It's designed to be used by PCs through all levels of play. The lich, however, is like a template added from the Monster Manual (v3.5), boosting the power of an already created character. A lich can be a Warlock Lich, a Sorcerer Lich, a Mage Lich, or even a druid lich. The vampire is just that.....a vampire. |
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