| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 17:07:14
Hey... I was thinking about Karsus the other day... no not like that... and if we believe him to be the casper of the most powerful spell ever since its a lvl 12, then is he indeed the most powerful spellcaster of all time. I’m not here thinking about the best tactisian, because that was evident at the time of the casting, but simply put in raw lvl of spells casted. If he is the most powerful ever, then what about guys like Ioulaum, Larloch and the Srinshee? Or indeed someone like the Terraseer?
Would they have the knowledge of the art necessary to pull off a lvl 12 spell, if indeed we forget about the ban of Mystra?... Or was Karsus a so talented so genius spellcaster that it was He himself, and only him who had/have ever achieved such knowledge; and by that; power???
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 06:01:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Erik once shared some info on Negarath with me as well, but I'm curious about what further info he provided you. Can you share it here with us?
-Sure, I don't think he'd mind. I asked why Nega, the Arcanist who built the city, built it so "weirdly", like Relativity, or House of Stairs and he said:
"Negarath is indeed "weird," and for two reasons. The (surprisingly lawfully-aligned) arcanist Nega was a master of chaos magic, and he found the Escher-like quality of his enclave an artistic expression of himself as well as soothing. He built Negarath as a kind of Parque Guell / Sagrada Familia (Gaudi creations in Spain). Long story short, he built it that way purposefully as a destination, kind of like an amusement park for the Netherese. Negarath was actually inverted, with its own reverse gravity field (as seen in the novel).
Also (and what led to Negarath's downfall), Nega bound a Sharn (Ruuk), which he afflicted with a lawful alignment in the process of squeezing its chaos out of it (like juice from an orange) to use in making the enclave really crazy. This continued even after the fall of Netheril, continuing to warp the surrounding area.
The basic theme of this story is Netherese arrogance: thinking that chaos magic can be controlled by understanding it.
Which is similar to one of the things I'm going for in the book, only with madness."
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Thanks, but no thanks. I don't like the protagonists. The blurb alone is dull enough. Plus I read some nasty reviews on that novel.
-Depths of Madness, or Ghostwalker? If it's the latter you're talking about, that's one of the Top 10 Forgotten Realms novels published, in my not so humble, highly regarded opinion! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 02:16:38
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
From what novel is that? Haven't read any of Erik's.
-Depths of Madness. I did a review on that one, didn't like it too much, but if you haven't read it, you should try it. Outside of that one, I enjoyed Ghostwalker immensely, as well as the assorted short stories he's written.
Thanks, but no thanks. I don't like the protagonists. The blurb alone is dull enough. Plus I read some nasty reviews on that novel. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 01:31:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Only one other enclave exists, that we know of, that, seemingly, was as "advanced" as Karsus' Enclave, and that would be Nagareth, based off of the awesome information that Erik was able to share with me, ...
Erik once shared some info on Negarath with me as well, but I'm curious about what further info he provided you. Can you share it here with us?
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 18:30:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
From what novel is that? Haven't read any of Erik's.
-Depths of Madness. I did a review on that one, didn't like it too much, but if you haven't read it, you should try it. Outside of that one, I enjoyed Ghostwalker immensely, as well as the assorted short stories he's written. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 18:26:05
From what novel is that? Haven't read any of Erik's. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 18:15:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The architectural designs of the buildings in his city were also a breakthrough, albeit they defied logic. And of course, let's not forget that he once apprenticed one of Toril's current most powerful badass, Telamont.
-Only one other enclave exists, that we know of, that, seemingly, was as "advanced" as Karsus' Enclave, and that would be Nagareth, based off of the awesome information that Erik was able to share with me, vis-a-vis why the architecture was right out of Maurits C. Escher's Relativity, or House of Stairs paintings. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 05:22:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He did fail in his objective, though: to steal deific power long enough to do something specific with it. He also failed in his objective to protect Netheril.
-That much is true, in that he wasn't able to harness Mystryl's divine power long enough to do anything noteworthy with it (anything, period, really). His basic objective, to steal the power of a deity, did in fact get met, though with unforeseen consequences, and his spell most definitley worked. It's all about specificity.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And your point is certainly true, Sage, but other than his "Folly", there doesn't seem to be much to the man. We've never really heard much about anything else he ever did- and I suspect it's because it was ALL he did worthy of any note. Honestly, I can't remember reading a single other thing he ever did that was even remembered!
-He kinda was the most gifted magical prodigy a highly magical nation had ever seen, and went on to lead that highly magical nation by default (however decentralized it's government was) for X amount of time.
The architectural designs of the buildings in his city were also a breakthrough, albeit they defied logic. And of course, let's not forget that he once apprenticed one of Toril's current most powerful badass, Telamont. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 04:31:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He did fail in his objective, though: to steal deific power long enough to do something specific with it. He also failed in his objective to protect Netheril.
-That much is true, in that he wasn't able to harness Mystryl's divine power long enough to do anything noteworthy with it (anything, period, really). His basic objective, to steal the power of a deity, did in fact get met, though with unforeseen consequences, and his spell most definitley worked. It's all about specificity.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And your point is certainly true, Sage, but other than his "Folly", there doesn't seem to be much to the man. We've never really heard much about anything else he ever did- and I suspect it's because it was ALL he did worthy of any note. Honestly, I can't remember reading a single other thing he ever did that was even remembered!
-He kinda was the most gifted magical prodigy a highly magical nation had ever seen, and went on to lead that highly magical nation by default (however decentralized it's government was) for X amount of time. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 03:34:58
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, when one aspires to epic heights, one should expect to FAIL epically. That was sort of my point. And your point is certainly true, Sage, but other than his "Folly", there doesn't seem to be much to the man.
While I do agree... the very fact that he launched such an audacious plan, suggests a particular degree of research and skill on his behalf. Something that hasn't been duplicated either before or since.
That's what I was getting at earlier. We shouldn't completely dismiss the path Karus took to his Folly, just because the end result went badly. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 01:45:00
Well, when one aspires to epic heights, one should expect to FAIL epically. That was sort of my point. And your point is certainly true, Sage, but other than his "Folly", there doesn't seem to be much to the man. We've never really heard much about anything else he ever did- and I suspect it's because it was ALL he did worthy of any note. Honestly, I can't remember reading a single other thing he ever did that was even remembered!
It sort of puts me in mind of (as a RW example) King Harold during the Norman invasion. He's famous for loosing at Hastings- but does anyone even have a CLUE about anything else he ver did? Nope. Everything else was just not memorable enough. Without that battle, he'd be one of those rulers who just sort of faded into obscurity. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 01:28:48
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
LOL! Karsus = EPIC FAIL!!! (In his objectives, at least....)
I know this is said in the spirit of jocularity... but to me, it just seems a little too simplistic to simply state Karsus as an EPIC FAIL!
And I think entirely too much emphasis is placed on his "Great Folly," especially when we seem too eager to disregard the amount of time, experience, and skill Karsus placed into researching his method of ascension in the first place.
Granted, the end result demonstrated by his method posed such a tragedy that it encompassed the entirety of the Realms in its scope of devastating consequences. But that shouldn't completely devalue the overall genius, nor the glimpse into the dangers of humanity reaching too far too quickly, that Karsus ultimately came to represent.
Our own real-world history is marked by a great folly here and there, and all made by remarkable individuals. But at the same time, both the world and human history learned something from them -- the individual and the folly.
I think Karsus and his Great Folly should be interpreted in much the same way.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 23:49:28
LOL! Karsus = EPIC FAIL!!! (In his objectives, at least....) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 19:45:10
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Exactly. If the spell failed, and didn't worked, Mystryl wouldn't of needed to sacrifice herself to prevent the Weave from fraying beyond repair. His ultimate goal, to wrest control of her power forcibly, and use it to stop the Phaerimm and their lifedrain spells, that was the part of the equation that didn't go as planned.
He did fail in his objective, though: to steal deific power long enough to do something specific with it. He also failed in his objective to protect Netheril. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 18:39:08
-Exactly. If the spell failed, and didn't worked, Mystryl wouldn't of needed to sacrifice herself to prevent the Weave from fraying beyond repair. His ultimate goal, to wrest control of her power forcibly, and use it to stop the Phaerimm and their lifedrain spells, that was the part of the equation that didn't go as planned. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 08:23:08
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Correction: the choice of the deity that had unique nature being a weave itself was failure. The human simply had no way with his entity, even with stolen power, to become the replacement for something that was magic itself on his own.
That doesn't equate with the failure of his spell. It performed as he intended, albeit for just a fleeting moment. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 08:05:49
Correction: the choice of the deity that had unique nature being a weave itself was failure. The human simply had no way with his entity, even with stolen power, to become the replacement for something that was magic itself on his own. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 07:58:51
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I don't rate what Karsus did as highly, because it failed.
-He didn't, though. The spell worked as it intended to; he became deity of magic, for a limited amount of time.
Agreed. That it was countered by Mystryl's suicide shouldn't be seen as a failure. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 05:20:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I don't rate what Karsus did as highly, because it failed.
-He didn't, though. The spell worked as it intended to; he became deity of magic, for a limited amount of time. The fallout that happened afterward was because of the actions of Mystryl, not some flaw in the design of the spell, or it's effects. Trying to think of a good analogy...It'd be like saying a car wasn't properly put together if a driver drove it into a wall, causing it to get crushed beyond repair. The end result is still that the car was crushed beyond repair, but the fact that it is doesn't take away the fact that the mechanics who built the car did indeed built it to specs.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was thinking if the ban did not exist.
-Oh. In that case, yeah, anyone who was "high enough level" would be able to use that kind of magic. They'd have to do more intensive research into developing their spells, but it'd be possible. Just another notch up further on the ladder to climb up. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 05:14:14
Would surprise me if Mask pulled of a divinity stealing caper. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 04:58:13
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
So for sheer manipulation we have to give him credit!
And for the fact that he did it all by himself! |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 03:12:35
Alystra, I know SOME of the stories of previous ambitious "godhood-seizers" are NDA, but I believe Savras isn't. That tale was told at a public GenCon seminar panel, by Ed (the creator of Savras, not to mention Netheril and the wider Realms, too) sitting in a line of TSR staffers.
And Savras managed it, where Karsus didn't. Which would make him better than Karsus, if that's the yardstick someone is measuring "greatest spellcaster" by.
love,
THO
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| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 02:48:40
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But... To reenter the question at hand, would it indeed be possible for others of likewise power, to cast a lvl 12 spell. And since im referring to a single entity casting a single spell, I would personally believe that the Srinshee would have to be able to pull that off. Mind you, this shall not turn into a vs thread; it is just a place for contemplation of the entities of great magical power.
-No. After Mystra reformed herself and the Weave after Karsus' Avatar was cast, "Mystra's Ban", as it's known as, came into effect.
I was thinking if the ban did not exist.
quote:
Originally posted by THO
Hi again, all. They were two different spells, and yes, they're NDA until WotC permission is given.
Is there a thing wotc hasn’t put a NDA on??? I mean it seam like every time someone asks about something that has not been published it is automatically a NDA? is this really so? Or have they gone through "all " of Ed's home written stuff and said: no, yes, no, no, no....
Im sorry but sometimes it just seems lame to prohibit so "old" knowledge. Especially after they altered the whole world that much. Why care about info on an "old"/"obsolete" setting... ohh well what can you expect.
But on a lighter note...
I think that some credit would have to go out to Karsus for actually bending "magic" to an extent that it ripped divinity from a god. It was not his spell that failed, (as far as I know), but the consequences that he hadn’t calculated properly.
So for sheer manipulation we have to give him credit!
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 00:32:13
Hmm, that last tid-bit really has my curiosity up now. Somehow, I've always suspected as much. But I suppose it's NDA too? |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 20:34:10
Hi again, all. They were two different spells, and yes, they're NDA until WotC permission is given.
Lord Karsus, my answer to the most powerful was what those "in the Realms," who are in a position to have educated opinions on magic, would think the most powerful spellcaster was.
For everyone else (we scribes and less-informed inhabitants of the Realms), it's purely a matter of limited knowledge and personal preferences.
I don't rate what Karsus did as highly, because it failed. Nor was he the first to try.
love,
THO |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 08:29:18
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Answer #3: If you DO just mean human spellhurlers, the answer is pretty clear: Azuth.
Who cast a spell so complex, mighty, and subtle that only Mystra recognized it as the work of one man, and made him Magister. As Magister, he cast an even greater spell, and with Mystra's aid and Ao's assistance, ascended into godhood as a result (whereas Karsus tried to come in the back door, and failed to achieve unfettered lasting divinity). Both of these spells altered how magic works in the Realms. There was a reason Azuth was known as "the High One" among mages.
I suppose the exact details of those spells are NDA?
Regarding Mystra's Ban and 10+ level spells, if I recall the Secrets of the Magister sourcebook correctly, it says that 10+ spells can in fact still be cast - it's just all the rules for how to cast them have changed, and pretty much nobody has figured it out. The Srinshee and Elminster both know the 10th level form of the Srinshee's Spell Shift spell, for example. However, there's only a very small chance that 10+ level magic will work (a 1% chance for every few levels the character has or something like that?) - the Magister has the ability to cast a single 10+ level spell with a guaranteed chance of it working, but doing so means immediately sacrificing their office, and Mystra/Azuth can reverse the spell anyway if they disagree with its use. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 05:10:16
What was that spell he cast prior to and after he became a Magister? |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 04:57:29
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ooh, many thanks for that, THO. That really perks my interest- what was the spell? I don't recall it from my sources.
Was it the spell that trapped the Savras in his staff? Just for that I admit he is cool strong mage. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 23:05:21
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But... To reenter the question at hand, would it indeed be possible for others of likewise power, to cast a lvl 12 spell. And since im referring to a single entity casting a single spell, I would personally believe that the Srinshee would have to be able to pull that off. Mind you, this shall not turn into a vs thread, it is just a place for comtemplation of the entities of great magical power.
-No. After Mystra reformed herself and the Weave after Karsus' Avatar was cast, "Mystra's Ban", as it's known as, came into effect. Because True 10+ Level Magic was so taxing on the Weave (part of the reason Mystryl committed suicide, rather than let Karsus take her position as deity of magic- she did not think he could deal with the constant repairing the Weave that the Netherese and Phaerimm magic was necessitating), Mystra rewove the Weave upon her birth to prevent magicians from being able to cast True 10+ Level magic. Instead, if magicians wanted to cast such potent magic again, they'd have to turn instead towards Epic Magic (3e terminology for the concept), where casters would draw from their own life essences (EXP and Ability Score costs for spells), as well as pool their resources (Spell Circles/Pools), to achieve such massive effects. The way True 10th+ Level magic worked was like spells below 10th Level worked- the caster did the necessary incantations, had the necessary components, and the Weave did the rest. Those True 10th+ Level spells were so taxing to the Weave that the reborn Mystra did not want to take a chance that the Weave would become as stretched and frayed as it did during the heydays of Netheril.
-Regarding the Srinshee's magical ability, she utilizes Epic Magic, which, again, while it mimics the effects of True 10th+ Level magic, in terms of effects, isn't True 10th+ Level Magic. Being the extraordinarily gifted magician that she is, with the Seldarine and Mystra's blessing (being a Chosen), her ability to cast Epic Spells that are normally shared by numerous casters to mitigate their negative effects are strengthened, so she appears that much stronger. After Mystra's Ban, nobody can use True 10th+ Level Magic.
-Mystra's death at the hands of Cyric in 1385 DR, and the complete elimination of the Weave makes things more difficult, in terms of lore. Using 4e terminology, there are 21 Levels of spells stronger than 9th now. I'd roughly equate those 30th Level spells with, in prior 3e D&D, Epic Magic, those 20-29th Level spells are in the 7th, 8th and 9th 3e/2e/1e area, and everything else accordingly. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 22:50:04
I was thinking about "human" spellcasters, since I don’t know of any creatures that have pulled off magic at that range. I know dragons are very powerful, and a highly magical being, but I have jet to read about a dragon so deep in the knowledge of the art that it could level mountains, by pure magical prowess. That said, I do also know that many things goes on in Fearun, that are far beyond my comprehension, and by that, maybe even who I deem the most powerful spellcasters might just as well be puny.
But... To reenter the question at hand, would it indeed be possible for others of likewise power, to cast a lvl 12 spell. And since im referring to a single entity casting a single spell, I would personally believe that the Srinshee would have to be able to pull that off. Mind you, this shall not turn into a vs thread, it is just a place for comtemplation of the entities of great magical power.
But THO could or would you shed some light on what spell Azuth did cast so many years ago!???
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 20:07:17
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
...And are we talking solo spells, or "circle"/mythal/cooperative magics?
-Personally, I'd have to disqualify collective spells from the running, such as Thayvian Circle Magic, Waterdhavian Guild Magicians, and Elven High Magic Circles, among others, because they're utilizing the power of multiple individuals to power them. The...'grandeur' of those spell would have to be divided "per capita", for a lack of better words.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Answer #3: If you DO just mean human spellhurlers, the answer is pretty clear: Azuth.
Who cast a spell so complex, mighty, and subtle that only Mystra recognized it as the work of one man, and made him Magister. As Magister, he cast an even greater spell, and with Mystra's aid and Ao's assistance, ascended into godhood as a result (whereas Karsus tried to come in the back door, and failed to achieve unfettered lasting divinity). Both of these spells altered how magic works in the Realms. There was a reason Azuth was known as "the High One" among mages.
-Karsus' Avatar had a limited duration from the get-go. Once that duration ended, the spell would end, and the caster dead. Arguably, though, once cast, and divinity was achieved (especially if the deity of magic was the target), the "rules" could be changed to ensure that the temporary divinity would be permanent. And, perhaps I'm a little biased, but wresting control of the power of the goddess of magic by using a magic spell is a bit more impressive than being recognized and rewarded for crafting mighty works of magic with divinity. Apples and oranges, at the end of the day, but the narrative is stronger with the former than the latter for most people. |
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