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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 15:45:46
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I was just thinking about this the other day. What if a creature has enough resistance or even immunity to fire and this spell was cast on them? Would a weapon subjected to this spell be able to inflict the appropriate amount of fire damage that's supposed to happen in the appropriate round as per the table for the spell in the (3.5 edition) PHB? What if said individual had it cast on their armor and an enemy struck them with a natural attack or unarmed strike while the armor was supposed to deal fire damage to the wearer? I would think that the one using the natural attack/unarmed strike would take fire damage (maybe with an appropriate saving throw).
For example, let's say Joe Shmoe the fire giant fighter had Heat Metal cast on his greatsword or his armor, and John Doe the human monk were attacking him. If it were cast on Joe's sword, would it technically not cause fire damage to John alongside the normal damage rolled for a greatsword strike? What if it was cast on Joe's armor and John hit him with an unarmed strike? I would think the hot armor would hurt Joe.
Granted, there are spells out there like Energy Weapon (What book was that featured in? Spell Compendium?) and the like, but I just couldn't help but contemplate this. 
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 18:56:19
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Obvious fix is obvious: anyone unprotected who touches it gets burned. Whether once (save for half?) or "per round".
And yes, "Heat Metal + grappling" was used already, in Silver Shadows. I am interested in Heat Metal being mentioned as an arcane spell (there and IIRC by Elminster somewhere), though. Who remembers anything about this?
For weapons... IMO heating usually should soften metals (mechanically - perhaps force a saving throw with penalty equal to current heat damage, every time it's struck against something). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 19:41:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
For weapons... IMO heating usually should soften metals (mechanically - perhaps force a saving throw with penalty equal to current heat damage, every time it's struck against something).
That would depend on the metal and the amount of heat. Metal pots obviously get hot while cooking, but any softening that occurs then is not noticable.
It doesn't take all that much heat to burn flesh (as in, scalding, blistering, and such, not actually setting it afire). It takes considerably more heat to turn metal into anything more than a cooking surface. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 20:06:31
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I would rule no fire damage by heated weapon or armor. For a few reasons.
1) Such a rule would pervert the intention of spell.
2) A successful weapon or fist attack is a brief moment, a segment or less of time or a round Not enough time to transfer enough heat to cause hit point loss, maybe a blister or minor distraction.
Now a grapple or imbedded weapon clearly should offer some heat damage, because the time in contact is longer. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 22:26:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
(snip)
2) A successful weapon or fist attack is a brief moment, a segment or less of time or a round Not enough time to transfer enough heat to cause hit point loss, maybe a blister or minor distraction.
Now a grapple or imbedded weapon clearly should offer some heat damage, because the time in contact is longer.
I would disagree with this part. I've worked in restaurant kitchens, and I can say with certainty that even the briefest contact with a heat source can, if hot enough, cause a serious burn. Among other things, I've poured fryer grease down my hand and accidentally touched, with bare skin, a pizza pan that had just come out of a 600º oven. The latter contact only lasted long enough for me to be aware of it and drop the stack of pans, but I still had a scar on my arm that didn't fade for several years.
I also worked in electronics for a while, and more than once burned myself with a soldering iron.
Another time I accidentally touched a component on a powered-on backlight circuit board. The contact was again very brief, but I had scorched skin surrounding a very small burn from that, as well. It was also because of this that I can personally confirmed that burning flesh has a "sickly sweet" smell, as has often been described in print. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Apr 2013 22:28:02 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 22:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I am interested in Heat Metal being mentioned as an arcane spell (there and IIRC by Elminster somewhere), though. Who remembers anything about this?
Elminster (in the guise of Elmara) used either that very spell or something similar in Elminster: The Making of a Mage. I'll edit in the page number when I get a chance. |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 22:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would disagree with this part. I've worked in restaurant kitchens, and I can say with certainty that even the briefest contact with a heat source can, if hot enough, cause a serious burn. Among other things, I've poured fryer grease down my hand and accidentally touched, with bare skin, a pizza pan that had just come out of a 600º oven. The latter contact only lasted long enough for me to be aware of it and drop the stack of pans, but I still had a scar on my arm that didn't fade for several years.
I also worked in electronics for a while, and more than once burned myself with a soldering iron.
Another time I accidentally touched a component on a powered-on backlight circuit board. The contact was again very brief, but I had scorched skin surrounding a very small burn from that, as well. It was also because of this that I can personally confirmed that burning flesh has a "sickly sweet" smell, as has often been described in print.
Ironically, Wooly Rupert, I have plenty of small burn scars on my arms/hands from years of mishaps with clothing irons, the oven in the kitchen, and my household's various wood stoves. Recently, though, I burnt part of my right index finger rather nastily by mishandling a hot cast iron frying pan. Thankfully, that healed up in days.  |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 01:44:40
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| I was always of the thought that a Heat Metal spell should really just cook a guy dead if cast on them. I'm surprised its damage and level hasn't been upped because it's such a nasty spell. |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 03:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I was always of the thought that a Heat Metal spell should really just cook a guy dead if cast on them. I'm surprised its damage and level hasn't been upped because it's such a nasty spell.
Well, don't forget, D&D is FAR from reality in many ways. In reality, people can easily die from MANY events that can just as well take place in the game. The game's meant to be entertaining so that it normally doesn't get either too extreme or too dull. Otherwise, the game would be far from fascinating and such would have faded out of existence decades ago. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 14:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I was always of the thought that a Heat Metal spell should really just cook a guy dead if cast on them. I'm surprised its damage and level hasn't been upped because it's such a nasty spell.
This may simply hint at the level of "heat" applied to the metal. I'm picturing that if close to stovetop temperatures its more like the low setting. Its damage is obtained only by steadily heating up that which it touches over time. We all hear heat metal and we picture that it turns any metal into this red hot material, but perhaps that should be a much more powerful version of the spell ("searing metal" maybe).
Alternately, maybe the hit is searing red hot, but its not continuous, instead cycling through once a round or something. That may explain why low level people are insta-killed by this (they don't react fast enough to reduce the damage like a higher level character does). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2013 : 02:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
For weapons... IMO heating usually should soften metals (mechanically - perhaps force a saving throw with penalty equal to current heat damage, every time it's struck against something).
Well, there is the Metal Melt spell in the Spell Compendium. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2013 : 22:56:05
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quote:
TBeholder
For weapons... IMO heating usually should soften metals (mechanically - perhaps force a saving throw with penalty equal to current heat damage, every time it's struck against something).
quote:
Wooly Furball
That would depend on the metal and the amount of heat. Metal pots obviously get hot while cooking, but any softening that occurs then is not noticable.
It doesn't take all that much heat to burn flesh (as in, scalding, blistering, and such, not actually setting it afire). It takes considerably more heat to turn metal into anything more than a cooking surface.
Agreed, and I note that the sorts of metals one would make armor, weapons, and cookware from tend to have very high melting points. Smithies have to fire these items in the forge a lot longer than the little duration of a heat metal spell, then work the half-malleable glowing items quickly and with great force on a hot anvil (for at most a minute or three) before too much of the heat is lost to radiation. Fantastic metals (mithril, adamantium, etc) seem to often require even higher temperatures to forge than steel.
Even soft metals like lead and gold have melting points difficult to achieve with a typical campfire-sized blaze. I also note the heat metal spell description only states "searing hot" not "glowing hot".
Metal plate armor is typically laid over chain, and chain laid over leather or quilt or silk or other fabric/hide padding. This light-flexible padding would most likely be highly flammable. The sheer metal mass in a chunk of armor can hold an immense quantity/density of thermal energy without melting, while living flesh is basically just a fleshy sponge full of water which can burn and evaporate with comparatively little thermal energy. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Apr 2013 23:05:13 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2013 : 23:55:19
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Is that really perverting the intent of the spell? I would rule that as just being clever--under certain circumstances, turning an offensive spell into a buffing spell. I mean, certain golems are powered by lightning, and when I'm fragging some meddlesome PCs who stumbled into my den of profane darkness, I don't think it's a perversion of my lightning bolt to include said golem in the area of effect so that it gets buffed. Like y'do. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 12:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That would depend on the metal and the amount of heat. Metal pots obviously get hot while cooking, but any softening that occurs then is not noticable.
True, this means a threshold. Perhaps no higher than damage from normal fire, in most cases - this won't make steel soft as clay, but it's enough to mess with tempering.
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Elminster (in the guise of Elmara) used either that very spell or something similar
Aye, but Elminster (in the guise of Elmara) is a priest (in the guise of a priestess). I vaguely remember offhandedly mentioning it as "the spell you use to humble cocky warriors by burning them with their own weapons" or something to that effect.
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Well, there is the Metal Melt spell in the Spell Compendium.
Melt Metal, 4-level Evocation, Wu Jen spell from ol' good OA? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 15:47:17
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I had considered, at one point, creating a variant - a simple 'heat material' spell, which makes more sense to me. It would almost be like a magical version of microwaves.
As part of that, I tried to get my hands on some sort of list that featured the temperatures that most common substances would melt/combust at... and ran into a brick wall. Apparently you end up on FBI lists when you do those kinds of searches.
I was actually trying to do my own version of 'Path Magic' for my games - something featured in an old Dragon article. Its a system very similar to one used in Rolemaster - a system I am very fond of (and one that fits The Realms very well, IMO). 'Heat Material' would have been the first thing learned by a caloric mage (which diverges into fire and ice).
As for your idea, I would assume the weapon would do just as much damage to the wielder as it would to the victim, unless the wielder had some form of protection (something automatically built-into weapons like flaming swords). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2013 15:48:11 |
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Thought about the Heat Metal spell and equipment.
