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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 18:40:11
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I'm about to write a mini-article for a friend (Planescape setting).
Here's a bit gleaned (by me) from WotC forums of old.
Anything to add/remove? I want to have this article as clear as possible.
Zireael
Thanks in advance for any replies.
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SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 18:48:04
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| Well, everybody knows about Succubi, Alu-demons, Cambions, and Tieflings. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 18:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Well, everybody knows about Succubi, Alu-demons, Cambions, and Tieflings.
Aren't Tieflings just humans with fiendish traits in their bloodline and cosmetic features?
By the way, Zireal, do you have this Wizards article at your disposal? Figured you might, but not certain. Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 21 Oct 2010 19:21:33 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 20:20:04
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| I recall the Daemonfey included fey'ri (essentially gold-elf tieflings) and gold-elf half-fiends. The latter had all sorts of fiend parentage: marilith, glabrezu, vrock, balor. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Oct 2010 20:23:27 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 21:34:00
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Iuz is a Cambion, and he was the child of Grazzt and the mortal Natasha. She's the one who created the spell Tasha's Hideous Laughter - that bit was revealed in the final issue of (the real) Dragon magazine.
She is known as Natasha the Dark in Greyhawk, and was also an apprentice (adopted daughter) of Baba Yaga. In the Forgotten Realms, she is better known as Iggwilv. She is also known as Louhi on other worlds (and in Finnish mythology).
And all of that makes her a fascinating character and an incredible bit of D&D history.
Iuz is perhaps the best-known half-fiend in D&D, and was an enemy of Vecna (who's own exploits have multi-planer repercussions).
You get a deeper understanding of the 'behind the scenes' of the cosmology when you were a GH fan first. 
As for the topic, I happen to think that ALL extra-planer beings are really just spirits (in relationship to the Prime Material), and are therefor capable of breeding with mortals (no matter what form the physical action of procreation takes, it all comes down to an exchange of energy).
This is why we have SO MANY half-beings in D&D - the nature of the universe allows for nearly any 'magical' creatures* to cross-breed. Where Fiends are concerned, nearly anything is possible.
*And by 'magical creature' I mean any being with some extra-planer bloodlines, which would include nearly every non-human race and legendary creature. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2010 21:35:25 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 01:14:12
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Agreed, fiends can breed with anything. The result is either magnificent or terrifying, always powerful. There's even one demon/celestial crossbreed. I've never seen a demon/dragon, but it's not impossible.
Question - Can demons be afflicted with vampirism or lycanthropy? Can half-demons be afflicted? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 02:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Question - Can demons be afflicted with vampirism or lycanthropy? Can half-demons be afflicted?
In general templates can only be applied from the top down the creature Type pyramid. Though a few templates are exceptions to this rule. Lycanthropy (in 3.5) can only be contracted by humanoid and giant types; which excludes outsiders and thus full and half blood fiends. Vampirism is restricted to humanoid and monstrous humanoid types. Half-Dragon can be applied to any corporeal creature. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 02:16:04
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Orcus is undead, so he sorta breaks all the rules, thus proving anything is indeed possible with Fiends.
A half-Celestial/Fiend crossbreed? You're not talking about Little Nicky, are you?
Theres also nothing preventing anyone from creating a fiend-specific variant on vampires and Lycanthropes.
Isn't Ghost Rider a Were-Fiend, technically? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2010 02:18:45 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 02:30:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't Ghost Rider a Were-Fiend, technically?
That really depends upon which Ghost Rider you're talking about. Certainly, I'd say the 70's-era Johnny Blaze was actually demon-possessed by Zarathos. But Dan Ketch/Blaze, would be a likely candidate. He was soul-possessed by the ancient spirit of Noble Kale. Maybe Kale was an ancestral were-creature spirit*, haunting Dan's bloodline and manifesting as the 90's Ghost Rider.
...
* That's a cool concept all on it's own.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 03:26:44
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| Sage - I'm aware of the creature types, but not the pyramid structure you describe. Which ruleset? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 08:18:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Well, everybody knows about Succubi, Alu-demons, Cambions, and Tieflings.
Aren't Tieflings just humans with fiendish traits in their bloodline and cosmetic features?
By the way, Zireal, do you have this Wizards article at your disposal? Figured you might, but not certain. Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a
Yeah, one of the things I'm going to mention in that article.
And you are right about tieflings.
From WotC forums:
Balor, marilith, glabrezu, succubi, and vrocks are known sires of half-fiends.
As for the Tannarukks: "Tanarukks are the descendants of orcs and tanar#8217;ri (vrocks, in particular)" (RoF).
ok, then FC I says that demons can have sex if they have the necessary ''equipment'' and some do, others don't. It says that half-fiends can be created through arcane magic or curses.
I doubt it will be ever revealed what particular demonic race has the ''equipment'', but using polymorph spells and similar anyone can have it. The children take the true form of the shapechanged parent, similar is with half-dragons.
So you try to figure out "something definite" of something which has not been any more specified than what is written in the Fiendish Codices? Methinks much has been answered so far and AFAIK, we know of a certain number of set-in-stone possibilities:
- mariliths (Empyrean Odyssee)
- succubi / incubi (various half-fiends, tieflings, fey'ri et al) (most likely lilitu too)
- erinyes, chain devils, amnizu,harvester devils & brachina devils (as of FC II)
- glabrezu (draegloth)
- yochlol (assumed from Drow of the Underdark talk on drow warlocks)
- chasme (assumed from WotSQ)
- various archfiends and their consorts
tanar'ri - probably all except manes (have no will), with some shapeshifting help
spyder-fiends - yes
blood fiend, shadow demon, lilitu -yes
bebilith - yes
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SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 17:00:25
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| Hmm, from the lore, it's pretty obvious that Glabrezu have the "equipment". So would Succubi/Incubi, for obvoius reasons. Mariliths "might", and clearly Balors can (Wendonai, anyone?), the Vrocks seem to, but I've never run across any specific lore on it. Chain devils? Yikes! I'd hate to walk in on that one... Erinyes are also a given. Most of the other Tanar'ri either would need polymorphing, or are too alien in nature to seem likely. You might have better luck with some of the devils. They seem to have more humanoid forms to begin with. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 17:14:07
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I don't think the physical equipment is strictly necessary. There are D&D examples of characters who have inherited and manifested fiendish traits without having fiendish blood, genetics, or ancestry. The physical element appears to be only one method for fiends to procreate with mortals; spiritual corruption and symbolic conjugation (usually involving evil actions, blood, and sacrifices) are sometimes enough to spawn a bouncing baby fiend, or at least to curse/condemn all subsequent offspring with fiendish characteristics.
Though of course any masculine fiend worth his fangs would absolutely prefer the purely visceral experience over mere abstraction. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 17:25:00
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Thank you so much for the replies!
Alystra - what Planescape lore do you mean? Links, titles? I'd love to peruse them.
I'm in the process of writing the mini-article and will tell you when I'll have the final version. Unfortunately, it'll be in Polish.
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And in the vein - are there 3.0/3.5 stats for Red Shroud anywhere? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 17:57:47
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| I may sadly be even older oldschool. In my Realms tieflings (along with other outsider half-breeds) hardly exist, they're freaks and they tend to be seriously dangerous. To my old-fashioned way of thinking, planar breeds belong in the planes. Some may endlessly attempt to intrude upon the Realms, but their efforts are typically interfered with before they can gain a lasting hold. Heroes like to kill fiends, villains like to enslave them, gods don't want their rose garden trampled by the neighbours. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 18:28:10
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If you watch some of the 'sicker' anime', you will note that a humanoid form is not necessary. BTW, I am not recommending such anime' - its pretty awful - but I am aware of it and think that Fiends can get pretty damn creative.
Think of it like the Aliens movies - actual intercourse isn't necessary. All you need is an exchange of fluids or energy, and the deed is done.
Extra-planer beings are highly unconventional (as are creatures from space, apparently).
If you go the 'less yucky' route of energy-transference, then it becomes a simple 'corruption' thing as Arik has already pointed out. Spiritual beings (which ALL extra-planer beings are) don't require physical contact (read the Twilight story in Realms of Infamy by Troy Denning). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2010 18:38:19 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 18:28:50
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I don't have links,and my books are all buried at the moment. It's all in the 2nd ed Planescape boxed set. There is good stuff in the Manual of the Planes, the Planar Handbook, Sigil and Beyond, and DM's guide to the Planes, off the top of my head. On Hallowed Ground might have some info, too, but it's mostly covering the gods.
MT- I understand that, and I'm not disagreeing with the idea- I just don't like the approach of distilling it down to "he/she made a blood pact and now the kids are half-fiends". That just seems to bland and simple to me. And not to burst your Aliens bubble, but they DID use "intercourse" as a means of reproducing via humans- that's what the "face-hugger" xenomorphs were for!! I know this because I have a friend who is a very big Aliens fan-boy.... He gripes that the movies were not "canon", even though they came before any of the other stuff...
And apparently the novels go much deeper into what those face-huggers are actually doing. Yick! That is one bit of info I could have lived happily without ever knowing, though in hind-sight, it makes perfect sense. Yes, it actually WAS a we'ha going into that poor guy's mouth. *shivers*) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 22 Oct 2010 19:33:20 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 20:18:39
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I know all that (veteran nerd here), but my point was that what those face-huggers were doing was far from 'conventional'
First-off, it was using human males as females. 
And I agree with you that 'gross' works better, especially where Fiends are concerned. The 'energy exchange' is just a bit too 1980ish TSR for me (you know, when they re-named Fiends, and had the vampires steal 'life energy', rather then drink blood?)
So for actual offspring, I would go the 'fluid exchange' route, but for tainted bloodlines (like Tieflings), I could see the 'dark pact' thing being pretty cool. The original pact-makers would look something like 4e's Tieflings, and the descendants would have less... noticeable... traits (like old-school Tieflings).
The further removed from the initial corrupted individual genetically, the more human the descendant would look. A fresh influx of fiend blood, however, or even 'taint' through some evil deed, would re-activate the recessive gene and all sorts of fun could begin to happen. 
Note that I look at Tieflings the opposite way 4th edition does - it makes little sense to me that direct offspring had some visible traits, but descendants of tainted individuals look like fiends themselves. On the other hand, my last paragraph sorta took care of that. The constant mixing of fiend blood through a specific group of people caused their primarily human gene-pool to mutate.
Everything is explainable with a little thought and lore.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 21:04:37
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D&D seems to be attempting to add some "realism" into the workings of human/fiend genetics. Yes, some newly introduced genetic traits will not express very well until the second and subsequent generations in RL. This inspires all sorts of half-accurate fallacies about baldness or lycanthropy skipping every second generation. Of course I have to wonder whether the fiend DNA is in fact genetically recessive in a human population, or if individual variances are so random that generic assumptions cannot apply.
I'd even be inclined to say - since we're dealing with supernatural fiends after all - the normal "rules" of genetics/parentage don't really apply at all. Humans - genetically untainted pure strain humans - could indeed be so vile (at the rarest extreme) that they begin to express fiendish traits without any external assistance at all. Tieflings might pass completely undetected as perfectly normal humans indefinitely, until something evil or supernatural triggers their "dormant" fiendish blood. The potential for fiendish evil is present in the genetics of every human. Perhaps fiends somehow tainted humanity at the very dawn of our race? Perhaps the opposite, humanity is the result of pure divine goodness attempting to redeem a race of fiends? Some precedents exist, such as the powers of Ravenloft "rewarding" evil bastards with fiend-like "gifts". Conversely, some precedents exist for fiendish-looking tieflings who eternally struggle against their dark natures ... it's as simple or complicated as you want it to be.
As mentioned above, fiends (like all planar beings) are creatures of belief. The chaotic evil essence of the abyss is part of what builds and defines a fiend, it is his DNA, it even defines how he grows as his chaos and evil increase. I suggest that human DNA requires stuff like oxygen, food, and water to live and grow ... while abyssal DNA requires flames, suffering, and vile deeds. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 21:45:00
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| The evil deeds taint concept just seems so silly to me. Why would doing something like- say, sacrificing puppies to a dark power, or going Jack the ripper on innocent elf-maids- turn someone into a fiend in the literal sense? Even Dr. Jeckle (who was a good man, BTW) needed his formula to turn into Mr. Hyde. And that was a transitory thing, to start out. Dahmer and Manson were about as twisted as it gets, but they were still fully human. (Just using the psychology in this example, not comparing RL sickos to the FR. The point is that a similar creep in FR would still just be a very disturbed human.) DNA and pacts aside, I don't see an evil person manifesting demonic traits unless there was some direct influence from an outside source. A demonic graft, maybe, or drinking demonic blood (a la Dragon Age: Origins) or some other means of physically or ritualistically consorting with such creatures. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 22:51:47
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| Yeah, evil transformation is bit of a stretch. I didn't really think that one through very well before posting. A guy like Manson or the Ripper would probably attract some sort of fiendish attention in the Realms, and probably be unable to resist whatever temptations/power the fiend would initially offer. As you say, there would be direct influence from an outside source. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 00:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I agree with you that 'gross' works better, especially where Fiends are concerned. The 'energy exchange' is just a bit too 1980ish TSR for me (you know, when they re-named Fiends, and had the vampires steal 'life energy', rather then drink blood?)
I actually liked the renaming of fiends... It made them sound more exotic and also made it easier to remember which was which. Additionally, the renaming allows them to avoid any religous connations. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 17:59:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Markustay
I actually liked the renaming of fiends... It made them sound more exotic and also made it easier to remember which was which. Additionally, the renaming allows them to avoid any religous connations.
Easier to remember? Really? I have a hard time even remembering the words (much less spell them) they used to rename the fiends. I take the Myth series view of labeling planar critters... |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 20:03:25
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I approve of the "fiend" nomenclature as well. Distancing the terminology from popular religious contexts was a damned intelligent move. I'm not sure I agree with all of the finer details, especially the retconned neutering of potentially controversial material, but it could've been done a lot worse (just think about the uproar caused by some other particular retcons).
"Fiend" is now also a great blanket term for pretty much anything extra-planar and evil that doesn't really fit neatly into existing categories. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 22:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Markustay
I actually liked the renaming of fiends... It made them sound more exotic and also made it easier to remember which was which. Additionally, the renaming allows them to avoid any religous connations.
Easier to remember? Really? I have a hard time even remembering the words (much less spell them) they used to rename the fiends. I take the Myth series view of labeling planar critters...
It's easier to remember that the baatezu are the lawful evil ones (because they're from Baator), and that tanar'ri are the chaotic evil ones (the name suggests chaos, to me). It's not as easy to keep the alignments straight betwixt demons and devils.
I do, however, like the catch-all term fiend. It also lacks the religious connotations, and can be used for any nastybad from the Lower Planes.
I wasn't into D&D then, but I do recall the hysteria against D&D from the 80s. I even recall flipping thru channels once and seeing some kid on a religious show explaining how playing D&D gave him all sorts of dark urges, and how he'd hear a voice in his head demanding he leave when he was hanging with his friends and they decided to pray. 
I never took any of that seriously, and I'm pretty far from the picture of a devout churchgoer. That said, I'm far more comfortable with the terms baatezu and tanar'ri than I am with the original terms. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Oct 2010 22:23:04 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 23:02:18
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| The DM can always use whatever terms he pleases, of course. I take advantage of this aversion and have all those musty old tomes in my games use whatever terminology might have been their fashion du jour in decades and centuries past. I've modelled many of my most expert sages on the personalities of RL sages, so they're a crotchety grizzled lot of grognards who'll argue relentlessly about miniscule errors in terminology ... just another annoying little complication to sometimes delay and frustrate players, make them second guess themselves when answering riddles and such, or suck extra gold through the hired-sage straw. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 00:53:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Markustay
I actually liked the renaming of fiends... It made them sound more exotic and also made it easier to remember which was which. Additionally, the renaming allows them to avoid any religous connations.
Easier to remember? Really? I have a hard time even remembering the words (much less spell them) they used to rename the fiends. I take the Myth series view of labeling planar critters...
I think it depends, also, on just how prevalent fiends are in your campaigns. For me, demons and devils feature regularly across many of the worlds I campaign in -- mostly due to my love of PLANESCAPE. So I'm inclined to agree with Wooly's point.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Demons/devils that are able to have half-fiends
