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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 07:39:00
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The Ogre Kingdom of Thar, ruled by Ogre-Magi...and it fell "one thousand years ago" to never rise again.
What I can't find is when it was founded!
Or even, really, when it actually fell.
Anyone have anything?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 08:23:22
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| Was a date ever actually referenced? Because I seem to recall the "Thar" booklet from the Elminster's Ecologies box set saying that the exact dates of the kingdom were unknown. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 09:35:44
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Just curious, where has it been said that Thar was ruled by Ogre_Magi? I seem to remember it being an advanced version of the common ogre.
And as far as I remember, no specific dates have been given for any happenings within Thar. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 10:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Just curious, where has it been said that Thar was ruled by Ogre_Magi? I seem to remember it being an advanced version of the common ogre.
And as far as I remember, no specific dates have been given for any happenings within Thar.
Richard Baker wrote an article titled "The Tribes of Thar" that speaks of the Kur-Tharsu (or "Overlords of Thar") that once ruled the Kingdom of Thar. The Kur-Tharsu are Ogre-Magi.
While the Common Ogre was indeed the Commoner of this Kingdom, the Ogre-Magi would have been the nobility...according to his writing. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 10:38:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Was a date ever actually referenced? Because I seem to recall the "Thar" booklet from the Elminster's Ecologies box set saying that the exact dates of the kingdom were unknown.
You know, the Elminster's Ecologies boxed set is one of the few items I don't have. 
I need to remedy that.
I feel that "a thousand years ago" is sort of a folk-lore type of saying really...and not a true statement. Sort of like "Once upon a time..." |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 10:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Just curious, where has it been said that Thar was ruled by Ogre_Magi? I seem to remember it being an advanced version of the common ogre.
And as far as I remember, no specific dates have been given for any happenings within Thar.
Richard Baker wrote an article titled "The Tribes of Thar" that speaks of the Kur-Tharsu (or "Overlords of Thar") that once ruled the Kingdom of Thar. The Kur-Tharsu are Ogre-Magi.
While the Common Ogre was indeed the Commoner of this Kingdom, the Ogre-Magi would have been the nobility...according to his writing.
Ah, thanks; I think I will keep things the way they were in my mind.
The Elminsters Ecologies box is worth getting. A lot of the information is probably contradicted now, but its always been a central part of my Realms view. The two additions are among WotC's free downloads if I remember correctly. They are not as good as the original set, so it might be a good idea to read trough them. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 15:44:14
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| Was the draconic realm of Tharkrixghontix in Thar? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 20:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Was the draconic realm of Tharkrixghontix in Thar?
I don't know...thought I do know that the original settlers of The Rystall Wood came from an EASTERN Dragon Kingdom that they were escaping from around -10,000 DR...
That would be a good tie in. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 20:47:20
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The Great Gray Land of Thar, pg.30 -quote:
"Many wicked deeds were attributed to the Ogres of Thar, including the destruction of the dwarven colonies in the West Galena Mountains, disturbing the dragons of the region to the point that they raided surrounding human lands, and even uniting the forces of the region to destroy the human citadel of Northkeep."
Evidence of dragons inhabiting (controlling?) the region before the Ogres did. The Orcs in the region have their own legends - they say they were mercenaries hired by the Ogre kingdom in their wars (the ogres insist they were slaves). I'm willing to wager, given the time-frame and proximity, that these were orcish warriors from Vastarr.
Also, the Ogres of the kingdom were much more advanced then common ones - they seem to be very much like the Ice Spire Ogres detailed in Giantcraft.
If the Ogres were the 'common foot soldiers' of Ostoria, it stands to reason that after that Empire fell there were several 'survivor states' that out-lasted them and built their own civilizations for a time. I would connect the two groups of ogres somehow, perhaps even going so far as to say the more advanced ones left the region to join their giantish kin to the west, after the humans began invading their homeland.
As a historic note, the original leader/unifier was known as Vorbyx, and he had an immense enchanted weapon, Vorbyx's Hammer. The final chieftan that was killed by the human Beldoran was the Tharkul (king) Maulog.
Also a thing for you to note Dalor; pg.31 in the 'Legends of the Orcs' entry -quote:
"The notion that the orcs and ogres might ally is a disturbing notion to many, for both possess potent magic and efficient military machines. Should this ever happen, Glister will certainly come under attack, as the city has long been seen as a thorn in the side of both ogre and orc. The various cities of The Ride and the Dragonspires might also be threatened."
Accent mine. It appears there are some permanent settlements of size within The Ride.
There is something there I can't quite put my finger on - the Zhents tried to invade Glister, didn't they? Could it be they used the local brutes from Thar, and the Eraka of The Ride recognized the threat, and that is why they went to Glister's aid? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2010 20:53:43 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 20:56:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is something there I can't quite put my finger on - the Zhents tried to invade Glister, didn't they? Could it be they used the local brutes from Thar, and the Eraka of The Ride recognized the threat, and that is why they went to Glister's aid?
I seem to remember that the invasion from the Zenths was of the Erakas lands not Glister? It ended after a large Zenthish caravan was destroyed by the Eraka, which makes it likely that it was a part of some plan to open a new northern trade route. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 21:35:33
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My understanding was that the Zhentarim (using the Zhentilar) had planned to conquer Glister to control the Bloodstone trade more fully, as well as the minerals coming from Glister itself.
The reason they were going through the northern hills of the Dragonspine mountains, now that I've talked with THO, is that they would have had to fight a terribly powerful Red Dragon in Dragonden Pass. The other alternate route would have been right through Thar, which the Ogres and Orcs would have seen as a direct invasion and would have massed together to stop them.
By going along the northern verges of the Dragonspines they avoided both problems...but did not realize that the Eraka would have seen it as an invasion of their land as well...and thus the slaughter of the Zhentarim soldiers who were not strong enough to face the full might of the gathered Eraka because they were only intended to be used against the mining community of Glister. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 21:45:23
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The Zhents say it was a caravan, but it was an army aimed at Glister, which the Eraka attacked. I'm looking through several sources now, and I am no longer for the idea of the Zents using the Ogres and orcs - they seem to have as much trouble with them as the next group. HOWEVER, it does say that the peoples who settled in the area of Zhentil Keep originally were deserters from the Dark Alliance; pg.3 of 2e The Moonsea reference guide -quote:
The evil, inhuman forces known collectively as The Dark Alliance (spearheaded by the land of Thar) realized Northkeep was a threat.
quote:
"In the year 400DR, the year of the Blue Shield, it was. On a night later called the First Turnabout,, the forces of the Dark Alliance swept down on the backs of black dragons and attacked Northkeep. What's more, a huge fleet of their black ships with ragged sails sacked and destroyed Northkeep."
It seems that a 'thousand years ago' is accurate, and that the Ogres even had an airforce and navy! Looking through the Moonsea material, the Ogres and Orcs were chased out of Thar by humans at one point (probably when their kingdom fell to Baldoran), but then they re-took it - that is the group there now. So the humanoids did not persistently hold Thar straight-through, which is what I surmised.
Is Baldoran the guy who founded Baldur's Gate? 
I seem to have heard that name before. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2010 21:48:13 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 22:32:25
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| Damn it man! You are stealing my ideas! LOL |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 08:49:01
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| That was Balduran, maybe Dabron Sashenstar's travels to the Cold Lands were inspired by him ? |
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Thar
