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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 01:31:29
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I'm sorry if this is a really dumb question, but I'm fairly new to fantasy. I have read quite a few Weis and Hickman books(which I throughly enjoy) and am wondering what is the connection between the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. I understand that Weis and Hickman (I think it was them both) were amongst the inventors of Dungeons and Dragons. Are the Forgotten Realms an offshoot of that and if so why do they not write any of the books?
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The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 02:09:32
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
I'm sorry if this is a really dumb question, but I'm fairly new to fantasy. I have read quite a few Weis and Hickman books(which I throughly enjoy) and am wondering what is the connection between the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. I understand that Weis and Hickman (I think it was them both) were amongst the inventors of Dungeons and Dragons. Are the Forgotten Realms an offshoot of that and if so why do they not write any of the books?
While I truly enjoy both settings, they are not linked. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 02:19:35
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Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson are officially co-credited with the creation of Dungeons & Dragons. The long, long history is a bit more complicated than that, and can be summarized something like this: Gary Gygax was the driving force behind getting the game published, many people down the years have contributed to it, and the first world-setting for the game was Greyhawk, again a collaborative effort, but essentially Gary's.
The company Gary founded to publish the game, which became known as TSR, eventually wanted a new world-setting for the game, and Weis and Hickman (who were employees of the company) came up with a proposal that became Dragonlance. Again, many people at the company, from artists to designers, contributed ideas to Dragonlance, but Weis and Hickman wrote the "foundation" novels of the setting, that told the epic tale of the Heroes of the Lance, and became known as THE creators of the setting.
The Forgotten Realms was created by Ed Greenwood, and TSR bought the rights to it when they wanted a new world-setting for the 2nd Edition of the game that didn't have the epic storyline of Dragonlance attached to it (so it could be more flexible, incorporating Oriental and Arabian and undersea and so on adventures). The published version of the game is co-credited to Ed and to Jeff Grubb, a TSR staff designer who became the "traffic cop" of the Realms. By the time the Realms was being developed, Weis and Hickman were busy bestselling Dragonlance novel authors, and the Realms was seen as a place to develop new writers (like RA Salvatore, Elaine Cunningham, and Ed, among others), and to a large extent freelancers (which Weis and Hickman soon became) were divided into "write for Dragonlance" or "write for the Realms" camps (which Wizards is doing right now for the Realms and Eberron) . . . so that's why Weis and Hickman didn't become Realms novelists.
I'm simplifying, and may have stated some things incorrectly, but that's basically it.
BB |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 02:39:11
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| Thanks Blueblade, quite complicated but you explained it very clearly. Interesting that the games were mostly based on published books. I wonder what the statistics are for pure gamers/pure FR readers/ and a combination of both. |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 03:05:28
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Ed's work on the Realms began in 1967 with a short story "One Comes, Unheralded, to Zirta." The story was originally given away in chapbook form at a GenCon, and then later reprinted in The Best of the Realms Vol. 2: The Stories of Ed Greenwood. It's also stored at Candlekeep:- http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/zirta.htm
Ed's also discussed a little about his early work on the setting in his replies here at Candlekeep [see the "So Saith Ed" link in my sig]. You're likely to find Ed's thoughts on the origins of the Realms to be fascinating reading.
The origins of the DRAGONLANCE setting were detailed particularly well in the 'Introduction' of both the original Dragonlance Chronicles omnibus and the Annotated Dragonlance Chronicles edition. I think there's a copy stored on the DL Nexus... I've got the URL here somewhere.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Jan 2009 03:11:31 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 03:10:13
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Oh, and while we're on the subject of connections between the Realms and Krynn...
Tahlia, you may find this interesting:-
I'll note that kender have been referenced in the Realmslore previously -- specifically, the character of Emilo Haversack in the novel Tymora's Luck. The events of which were later recorded on pg. 148 of The Grand History of the Realms tome.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Jan 2009 03:10:47 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 03:36:09
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| Well, the settings were linked together in 2e's multiverse, they just were two separate solar systems/crystals spheres within one prime material plane, so it's not a surprise that some races/characters crossed over. They especially did in planescape and spelljammer material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 03:41:02
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| I miss that portal between Anauroch and Taladas that was mentioned back in 2E. |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 03:52:27
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I have the Annotated Dragonlance Chronicles, that must be where I picked up the information. Lovely to hear Kender have made it to the Forgotten Realms ...Tasslehoff Burfoot is my most favourite character  |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 03:52:42
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
Thanks Blueblade, quite complicated but you explained it very clearly. Interesting that the games were mostly based on published books. I wonder what the statistics are for pure gamers/pure FR readers/ and a combination of both.
Ironically, I prefer reading about DL and DMing in FR. With DL built so much around the events in the books, I never saw any room for DMing there. A lot of books have been written about FR, of course, but a) there's not a single storyline that covers the entire Realms; and b) I tend to ignore the novels anyway.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 04:09:58
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| That's interesting Erskine. I haven't done any gaming whatsoever and I do like how Weis and Hickman books have the same characters and worlds popping up here and there in their books. That is my problem a bit with FR, where to start so that I can pick up the thread. But I don't have a problem with stand alone stories. I like the look of Elaine Cunningham from what I've read here so will try to get hold of something by her. |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
Edited by - tahlia on 10 Jan 2009 04:13:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 04:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
I have the Annotated Dragonlance Chronicles, that must be where I picked up the information. Lovely to hear Kender have made it to the Forgotten Realms ...Tasslehoff Burfoot is my most favourite character
It was just the one, Emilo Haversack -- and at the end of the book Tymora's Luck, he had decided to accompany Joel back to the Realms. The story ends there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 04:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was just the one, Emilo Haversack -- and at the end of the book Tymora's Luck, he had decided to accompany Joel back to the Realms. The story ends there.
Well you never know with Kender, they have a habit of popping up again unexpectedly, usually with something valuable that just 'happened' to fall into their pockets  |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 04:47:57
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There's not really a single thread to the Realms stories. You could read them in the order they were published, but it's not necessary. IMO, how to read them depends on whether your goal is to become knowledgeable in Realms lore, or whether you're looking for good stories to read. My approach has been the latter, so I've skipped over a lot of stuff that just didn't appeal to me. Elaine, however, is one of my favorite of the FR writers, and I don't think you can go wrong with her novels. Here's a website that describes the books, tells what series they belong to, and what general order to read them in...
http://www.o-love.net/realms/fr_reading_order.html
Some of the titles listed are short stories that appeared in anthologies, and some were short stories that appeared in Dragon magazine. Those add to the storyline, but aren't essential for reading the books.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 05:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well, the settings were linked together in 2e's multiverse, they just were two separate solar systems/crystals spheres within one prime material plane, so it's not a surprise that some races/characters crossed over. They especially did in planescape and spelljammer material.
Indeed. Tahlia, for more on this, please consult section D.1 of the 'Code of Conduct' [the link's in my sig].
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 05:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
I have the Annotated Dragonlance Chronicles, that must be where I picked up the information. Lovely to hear Kender have made it to the Forgotten Realms ...Tasslehoff Burfoot is my most favourite character
There was also an instance whereupon some tinker gnomes found themselves in the Realms, via spelljammer, but that occured in the Into the Void novel for the SPELLJAMMER line. Basically, those gnomes ended up in Rauthaven, in the realm of Nimbral. Though, I don't think it was ever clearly defined what happened to the remaining tinker gnomes that were part of the "Probe's" crew.
I've speculated previously that while some of them did die, a few may have been unaccounted for. So it's a possibility that at least some were left in Rauthaven. Perhaps they discovered a lost shrine to Gond somewhere in the city, or maybe a temple once dedicated to a Nimbral-derivative Wonderbringer interpretation based on the gnomish concept of Gond as Nebelun.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Jan 2009 05:49:36 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 06:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
Thanks Blueblade, quite complicated but you explained it very clearly. Interesting that the games were mostly based on published books. I wonder what the statistics are for pure gamers/pure FR readers/ and a combination of both.
Just a quick note of clarification, the games were based more on what Gygax and Arneson were fans of and the published D&D novels came second. IOW, the books were based on the game and not vice versa. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 08:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
There's not really a single thread to the Realms stories. You could read them in the order they were published, but it's not necessary. IMO, how to read them depends on whether your goal is to become knowledgeable in Realms lore, or whether you're looking for good stories to read. My approach has been the latter, so I've skipped over a lot of stuff that just didn't appeal to me. Elaine, however, is one of my favorite of the FR writers, and I don't think you can go wrong with her novels. Here's a website that describes the books, tells what series they belong to, and what general order to read them in...
http://www.o-love.net/realms/fr_reading_order.html
Some of the titles listed are short stories that appeared in anthologies, and some were short stories that appeared in Dragon magazine. Those add to the storyline, but aren't essential for reading the books.
I'm with you there Erskine, I'm more after a well-written book than trying to read everything about the Realms. Some of the stories I've glanced at are written in a far too stylised way for me. Thank you very much for that link, that's a big help. |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 08:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
[Just a quick note of clarification, the games were based more on what Gygax and Arneson were fans of and the published D&D novels came second. IOW, the books were based on the game and not vice versa.
Does that apply to all Forgotten Realms books ....are they all based on D&D ? |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 08:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well, the settings were linked together in 2e's multiverse, they just were two separate solar systems/crystals spheres within one prime material plane, so it's not a surprise that some races/characters crossed over. They especially did in planescape and spelljammer material.
Indeed. Tahlia, for more on this, please consult section D.1 of the 'Code of Conduct' [the link's in my sig].
Now you're just trying to blind me with science.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ed's also discussed a little about his early work on the setting in his replies here at Candlekeep [see the "So Saith Ed" link in my sig]. You're likely to find Ed's thoughts on the origins of the Realms to be fascinating reading.
I would be interested to read this ...which posting covers this?
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The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 12:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
[Just a quick note of clarification, the games were based more on what Gygax and Arneson were fans of and the published D&D novels came second. IOW, the books were based on the game and not vice versa.
Does that apply to all Forgotten Realms books ....are they all based on D&D ?
D&D is a roleplaying game, as you know. Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk etc. are gameworlds that you use the D&D rules in; after all, you can't play D&D without a gameworld, whether it's a published one like the above examples or your own.
Either way, since DL and FR are D&D gameworlds, everything written about them is obviously based on D&D. Novels are a way of marketing and enriching (or, a some might say, ruining) the gameworld.
Ed created the Realms for personal use, TSR bought it and made it a D&D setting, and several authors wrote their own stories situated in the existing gameworld, in that logical and chronological order. Of course, how much mechanical D&D game elements individual authors choose to show in their work is another matter. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 10 Jan 2009 12:10:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 13:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
I would be interested to read this ...which posting covers this?
Oooh! I'll probably have to dig through the compiled reply files to find them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 00:04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
I would be interested to read this ...which posting covers this?
Oooh! I'll probably have to dig through the compiled reply files to find them.
Don't worry Sage, I thought you might know which one it was off hand. I'll read through them  |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 00:10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
Does that apply to all Forgotten Realms books ....are they all based on D&D ?
D&D is a roleplaying game, as you know. Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk etc. are gameworlds that you use the D&D rules in; after all, you can't play D&D without a gameworld, whether it's a published one like the above examples or your own.
Either way, since DL and FR are D&D gameworlds, everything written about them is obviously based on D&D. Novels are a way of marketing and enriching (or, a some might say, ruining) the gameworld.
Ed created the Realms for personal use, TSR bought it and made it a D&D setting, and several authors wrote their own stories situated in the existing gameworld, in that logical and chronological order. Of course, how much mechanical D&D game elements individual authors choose to show in their work is another matter.
Thanks IronAngel, that completely clears it up. |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 00:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
I would be interested to read this ...which posting covers this?
Oooh! I'll probably have to dig through the compiled reply files to find them.
Don't worry Sage, I thought you might know which one it was off hand. I'll read through them
Oh, there's more than just one reply on Ed's early Realms work. They're scattered across practically all the years Ed's been replying to questions here at Candlekeep.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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tahlia
Acolyte
New Zealand
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 00:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by tahlia
I would be interested to read this ...which posting covers this?
Oooh! I'll probably have to dig through the compiled reply files to find them.
Don't worry Sage, I thought you might know which one it was off hand. I'll read through them
Oh, there's more than just one reply on Ed's early Realms work. They're scattered across practically all the years Ed's been replying to questions here at Candlekeep.
Well I might be a while then  I think it's absolutely great that the authors actually come on here and you can ask them questions. |
The dragon is always smaller in the eye than in the mind |
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sneakypetev
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 16:20:42
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| As far as DL and FR "connecting" you might want to count the Solomnic Knights transported to the Baldur's Gate Wizard orb in BG II. If you can count PC games as part of Realmslore.(?) |
"Go for the eyes boo,go for the eyes!"- Minsc |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 22:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sneakypetev
As far as DL and FR "connecting" you might want to count the Solomnic Knights transported to the Baldur's Gate Wizard orb in BG II. If you can count PC games as part of Realmslore.(?)
I do. It's true that only the events that occured in the novels are "canon", but the games themselves seemed to have left a huge impression on a lot of Realms fans, myself included. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 23:27:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sneakypetev
As far as DL and FR "connecting" you might want to count the Solomnic Knights transported to the Baldur's Gate Wizard orb in BG II. If you can count PC games as part of Realmslore.(?)
*blinks* Why were Solamnic Knights transported to the Realms?
I think it'd be cooler to have the Knights of Takhisis pop up int the Realms, but since the timelines don't mesh up until around the time of the 4E Realms, that's not as easy to pull off. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 23:35:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sneakypetev
As far as DL and FR "connecting" you might want to count the Solomnic Knights transported to the Baldur's Gate Wizard orb in BG II. If you can count PC games as part of Realmslore.(?)
*blinks* Why were Solamnic Knights transported to the Realms?
'Twas because of the Planar Sphere [where you encounter them in Shadows of Amn], as I recall. If your character is a mage, you can actually help them to return to Krynn.
quote:
I think it'd be cooler to have the Knights of Takhisis pop up int the Realms, but since the timelines don't mesh up until around the time of the 4E Realms, that's not as easy to pull off.
I'd prefer the Knights of Neraka, actually. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 15:35:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
'Twas because of the Planar Sphere [where you encounter them in Shadows of Amn], as I recall.
I recall the same thing. True to its name, the Planar Sphere was able to travel to all sorts of places (in the game, you wind up travelling to the Abyss with it) and is full of weird creatures. At one point you come across cannibalistic halflings from Dark Sun.
quote:
If your character is a mage, you can actually help them to return to Krynn.
That's correct, it's part of the "mage stronghold" activities.
I liked how the knights refer to the PC as a "mage of great power." |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Jan 2009 15:38:18 |
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Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance link
