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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  20:57:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I've completed the North (there are some funky hills that need attention in Skelkor, but that’s a different country).

Map of Northern Returned Abeir (Laerakond)

The Grimwings:
These are strange creatures resembling flying goblins or even Imps, except they have wings in lieu of arms. The Grimwings live in caves in the massive cliff-face that encircles all of the northern coast, and were fond of lairing in an ancient tower before the cult took it over (hence the name "Grimroost").

Grimroost: This ancient tower does not appear on any records from Abeir; it's as if it just appeared out of nowhere. However, the apparent great age of the place indicates that it is at least as old as the Time of the Primordials. The only mortals aware of it's existance are members of the Order of the Dawn, and even then only to the elite membership. The Tower seems to have some sort of magical field enveloping it that prevents all forms of scrying. This protection also extends outward from the Tower for quite a distance, and also causes anyone looking away from the tower for only an instant to forget what they saw. This aura of Forgetfulness is so powerful that it is simply impossible to place the site on any map - it blocks a person's ability to make any written record of it! Since the location is completely surrounded by towering Mountain peaks and the entire region is impossible for anything to fly in, the magical protection has proven 100% effective thus far.

The Grimwings that used to make their lairs within the Tower are mildly telepathic, and several members of the group always remained within, so that others were able to find their way home. Since the Cult has chased off the creatures, none have been able to find their way back (although packs occasionally come across it quite by accident). The Dragonborn Cultmember who first discovered the tower also found a secret cache of amulets in a locked chest hidden in one of the many Underhalls - these amulets are able to allow the wielder to overcome the Forgetfulness that effects everyone who comes across the tower, and most of the upper echelon of the Cult wears one. The amulet itself is a rather plain Platinum Octagon a finger's width in length bearing a rune on one side, apparently belonging to some unknown Primordial.

Though no furnishings exist from the original occupants, most of Grimroost seems to be constructed for creatures of humanoid size and build. The one exception to this are the stone benches built-in to the walls along the outer parapet, several of which were apparently designed to accommodate tailed creatures. Cultmaster Rowan Babar spends much of his time between the tower and Skullkeep, crafting ever greater plans to further the Cult's goals.

The Lost Land:
This your typical 'Lost World' region existing on Returned Abeir primarily as a sanctuary and private hunting grounds for Dragons. The area is filled with all manner of prehistoric monstrosities, Dire Animals, and Shambling Behemoths. The only sentient creatures that live here other then the masive beasts are a race of small, hairy man-like beings who refer to themselves as 'the Chaukūni'. They are extremely primitive, barely understanding the rudiments of tool-use, and their language is little more then grunts containing less then 200 words. These creatures are about the size of (4e) Halflings, and some scholars speculate that these might be the ancient ancestors of that race.

The Windswept Plain:
This area is a bit of an anomaly - although Laerakond exists close to Toril's equater and is very hot, these plains are quite cool during the day and downright chilly at night. This is caused by the massive amount of ice-water running off from the northern mountains into Relmaur Bay (many in astoundingly beautiful waterfalls and cascades of ice-filled water sparkling in the sunlight). The frigid water along the coast cools the winds that travel up through the Dragon Sea, which becomes very strong as it is funneled into the narrow Bay. Much of the Wind is blocked by the mountains and is forced NW across the plains, causing the occasional gale-force storm to blow across the region. Most living creatures avoid the area because of these sudden, violent wind-storms, but rumour has it that the Eminence of Araunt has a base of operations here.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2008 22:08:02

Brimstone
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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  21:26:21  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Pretty Good Stuff.


BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Dalor Darden
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USA
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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  21:55:03  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye...

Good stuff indeed!

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  23:19:50  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fascinating.

If I'm ever to feature northern Returned Abeir in my campaign Markus, know that your map will be the one that I'll be using.

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Edited by - The Sage on 07 Nov 2008 23:20:34
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Jakk
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Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2008 :  08:44:56  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks good, but I still haven't decided where I'm putting Returned Abeir in my (otherwise unchanged) Toril yet... how are Kara-Tur and Zakhara coming along?

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2008 :  21:49:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everything is coming along - I do a little here, and a little there.

I only pushed Laerakond to the forefront of my projects because I suspect Ed's coming up with some new material for the place for the DDi soon, and I think people could realy use a decent map of the place.

I had done a pretty basic one when I first got my hands on the Returned Abeir Map, but I am now revisiting it and adding in lots of little details the original was lacking, like small forests, lakes, and swamplands.

Newer Version of Northern Abeir

The north is pretty-much finalized except for a little more mountain detail, and thats most of Skelkor now. I'll probably add some more to Skelkor so that country isn't quite finished. Am I the only one who sings the song Fernando everythime I read "Mount Cormanda"?

The Wetlands
Sounds like the locale of the same name in WoW, and guess what? It is! Pretty much marshy jungle with lots of swamps, bogs, and quicksand (all of which I still need to add to Melabrauth), with all sorts of 'jungles nasties' running about. This place gives the song Crocodile Rock a whole new meaning.

This area is like the worst parts of the Amazon and the Florida Evergaldes combined, with packs of 'Gatordogs' tearing apart just about anything they come across, amongst other things.

Crescent Lake
Okay, not the most original name... this lake was only recently discovered, even though it's been taking up a huge part of central Skelkor for thousands of years. People have just been walking around it not noticing it until just last week, when one small child pointed it out and said "Hey! Is that a lake?"

What? This is 4e! Thats quality stuff there.

Just kidding - This is a Dragon-created lake that was first constructed (using both magic and brute-force) back in the days of Gorloun's Empire and filled with pleisaurus' and other aquatic creatures, along with a variety of flora conducive to maintaining a stable ecosphere (Dragons are very clever that way). Dragons consider the dinosaurs - simply called 'lake Monsters' by most inhabitants - a delicacy, and they have managed not to over-fish the lake in the centuries since. Hunting the creatures is against the law by any non-Dragons, much to the consternation of the folk living along it's shores (who wind-up being an occassional meal for the beasts).

Bellakh
This fortress-city gaurds one of only two passes through the mountains from Skelkor to Eskorn. Unlike many such fortresses in Laerakond and elsewhere, its main goal is to keep people IN, not out. After the revolution to the south, Empress Gauwervyndhal was forced to build many such fortifications to keep her citizens from fleeing en masse.

Arangyn
Being the only port in the country of Skelkor one with think it a place of bustling mercantile activity... but it's not. It is a dreary and dismal place and all traffic into and out of the port town is monitored by the Maldrake Overseers - beings roughly the size of a large carriage with an evil disposition. Created from stock of the normaly peaceful Woodrakes living in the Abeirran Forests, these fell creatures keep a tight lid on the population. Because of the dangers involved in trading in the city, most foreign merchants avoid the place, but this has driven prices for outside goods sky-high in Skelkor, and Greedy ship-captains do occasionally dock here and make their fortunes... or die trying.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2008 21:50:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 10 Nov 2008 :  23:01:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eskorn is done.

Only a little left to go - I'm going to see if I can get the E.G. 'stamp-of-approval' on all of this when I'm done.

I'm just at a loss for words over the complete lack of feedback on these... people have less interest in Returned Abeir then I had even estimated.

I had to shift the Firetress around - it was kinda crowded in that one area so I spread things a bit, and I also didn't feel the locale made sense inside the forested area (considered it is a burnt-out forest). I may do some other texture in the region where the trees were burnt down though, because 'clear' terrain doesn't seem approriate either. The rivers, Moor, and Bregendūth area were all my adds. Don't ask me what lives in Bregendūth (both the name for the region and the forest), but I know it's nasty (Ed mentioned wanting more undeveloped areas for monsters, so this is one of them). As for the Moor -

Dimee Moor:
In the distant past of Eskorn there lived a Lord by the name of Sir Brusche of Wallace - a Realm long since vanished into the swamps. Simply called 'The Brusche' by his adoring subjects, he was a kind and noble Lord who took care of his people and treated his neighbors with respect - something you do not see so much anymore. He fell in love with a handsome Noblewomen from the Swordlands, and the two married. For several years all was well, but the Brusche found himself having to stay away from his castle more and more as both hostile creatures and humans began to encroach upon his lands, and his young bride grew lonely. He arrived home unexpectedly one day from a campaign and caught her in the arms of his young page, and so terrible was his wrath that he nearly killed them both on the spot. Instead he had a tower constructed far outside his own lands on a lonely Moor on Laerakond's coast, and had them imprisoned together therein, with no other company but each other.

Gaurds were posted around the outer wall of the tower, and supplies were brought in from time to time, but no-one was allowed to have any contact with the traitorous duo. They both grew old and bitter together, locked away in their tower, and the young man even grew to hate the women that caused his fate. When she finally died he buried her in the tower courtyard, but he was soon to find out his torment was not at it's end. She arose on the night of the next full moon as a Banshee, and so terrible were the Harrigan's cries to the man's ears that he threw himself from the top of the tower, managing to clear the outer wall and at last escape his captivity in death. It is said that the tower still stands, lonely and ungaurded, and the Noblewomen can still be heard weeping and screaming within. The ghost of the young man is also trapped upon the moor, and he has taken to playing mean pranks upon travellers through the area.

As for The Brusche - he became an old and bitter man, ignoring his subjects and his lands, and after his death his tiny Realm disappeared into obscurity as all such realms do.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Thalos_Milathriel
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 11 Nov 2008 :  13:13:43  Show Profile  Visit Thalos_Milathriel's Homepage Send Thalos_Milathriel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting lore. Fabulous maps, as always. Thanks for all you do for us Markustay. You are a great asset to the keep.

I'm sure we'll see some novels set in Abeir soon. Perhaps that will get me more into this continent.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2008 :  18:31:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The lore is, as always, optional. I just tack that on here so folks know what I had in mind when I name something, but DMs are always free to do whatever suits their own campaigns best.

That was always the case with canon lore, too, but some people didn't get that, and we wound up with 4e...

But thats water-under-the-bridge now.

The whole continent should be done by the end of the day, and I'll be shipping it off directly to Alaundo - CK gets exclusivity on the finished version (I won't even put any more WIPs of it up on my site).

I may put together what Homebrew lore I have for an article here, since it is only a few pages and most of it is already written. I just don't want to contradict anything Ed may come up with about the place in DDi articles, so I may wait on that a bit.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2008 18:33:45
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
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Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  15:33:38  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You do amazing work, Mark!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  18:43:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Update - Its done, but no more previews.

The complete Larakond Map was E-Mailed to Alaundo last night and should be up soon.

Thank you for your interest - Mark

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  21:31:07  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks good... I hadn't been paying much attention to geography stuff lately, as you know. I'm better now. Mostly because I got my Pathfinder Campaign Setting in the mail today! Yay! Now I need to do some reading...

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  21:37:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wanted to do some Golarion... but their maps are already PERFECT and I couldn't possibly do anything to improve them. Besides, I started this project(s) because I wanted to bring back all the missing locales from earlier editions into 3e, and Pathfinder is still in it's infancy, so it certainly doesn't need an amateur like me mucking about.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2008 21:50:50
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  23:42:39  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course they're perfect... Rob Lazaretti did the cartography. Not that I'm slighting your skills; but you know that. At least, I hope you know that.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Brimstone
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USA
3286 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2008 :  02:00:22  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Wow Markus you got dissed! That Golarion Map is a wonder to behold.


BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2008 :  05:35:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He also did the 4eFR map... 'nuff said.

EDIT: There was a little problem with the mail so thats why the delay here, but the finished Laerakond map should be up by tomorrow hopefully - I'm extremely proud of it - it's my best work yet, if I do say so myself. I haven't felt that much creative freedom since doing the Ixinos map recently.

Drawing over other people's work is fine, but designing your own little 'kewl things' just gives one a special feeling, and I can actually be thankful for that one aspect of 4e (the complete and utter lack of detail does give one some 'breathing room').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2008 05:41:59
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2008 :  07:42:30  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
RL did the FR4E map!? Did WotC force him to work in a darkroom to save electricity?

Seriously: No dissing intended. I have nothing but the greatest respect for your skills and work, Mark, and there's a very good reason I don't do graphics work. Actually, there are a number of them, but lack of talent and lack of patience are at the top of the list. I have far more patience waiting for other people to get things done than I have for myself to learn something I'm not particularly talented at, and you've seen on these boards how much patience I have with corporate entities.

I've always been a fan of RL's work, and if I'd known he'd done the FR4E map, I'd have been a lot earlier. I had always suspected that WotC just took the 3E map outline, ran it through a morphing algorithm, then had someone new do the detail work; how else do you explain the location of Calimport on the 4E map? I realize that the water levels have dropped, but still...? Anyway, given the Spellplague and its aftermath, I thought the style of the 4E map was a perfect fit for the new Realms.

Edit: After Returned Abeir is done, will you be returning to Kara-Tur and Zakhara? Or are you full-speed-ahead on 4E stuff now?

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 14 Nov 2008 07:47:15
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2008 :  12:33:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nope - thats it for 4e for now. Peeps have quality 3e maps already to work off of for the rest of the Realms, but anyone wanting to run a Returned Abeir campaign was kinda screwed, so thats why I put everything aside to do that.

I spent the better part of yesterday touching-up the Hordelands area so I can submit new maps for that, and as of today I'm pretty much full-bore on Kara-Tur...

and then Zakhara.

Edit: Oh, and I'm a huge fan of Rob Lazaretti's work as well, and that's why I was in shock when I found out he did that 4e map. I don't know if it was a 'rush job', or he was specifically asked to make it look that way, but that was definately a 'low point' in his carreer.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2008 12:38:03
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2008 :  23:57:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Returned Abeir map should be up in a few days, but in the meantime I have placed it (in miniature) on a section of the world map to allow people to get a better idea of it's position. I did this primarilly for someone wanting to use my CK article for a pirate campaign based out of Laerakond, so I threw this together to give him a better idea of things.

Returned Abeir and it's place in the world

Note that it fit pretty good and only took up a part of Maztica, and we still have the entire southern Lopango region left, along with a bit of the north that was detailed in one of the modules. Please read the notes below the map for Evermeet's more southerly location - I think my explanation makes some sense and it bridges the 3e and 4e placements.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Daviot
Senior Scribe

USA
372 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2008 :  23:55:47  Show Profile  Visit Daviot's Homepage Send Daviot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Question: Where'd the map of Katashaka come from, and besides its name being dropped once or twice, has the landmass ever had any description in detail?

One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  00:35:13  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Katashaka was featured in one of Brian James' articles for the Candlekeep Compendium [see the link in my sig]. Inside, you'll find some lore about this dark continent located southwest of Faerūn. Grand History has a few other tidbits.

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Edited by - The Sage on 18 Nov 2008 00:36:31
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Daviot
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  01:16:27  Show Profile  Visit Daviot's Homepage Send Daviot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Katashaka was featured in one of Brian James' articles for the Candlekeep Compendium [see the link in my sig]. Inside, you'll find some lore about this dark continent located southwest of Faerūn. Grand History has a few other tidbits.


Once again, Sage, you come to a swift response. I'd seen the GHotR tidbits, but I'd totally neglected to look through the Compendium for it. Shame on me.

One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  01:20:03  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Katashaka was featured in one of Brian James' articles for the Candlekeep Compendium [see the link in my sig]. Inside, you'll find some lore about this dark continent located southwest of Faerūn. Grand History has a few other tidbits.




Which particular volume is the Katashaka article in?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Daviot
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  04:00:00  Show Profile  Visit Daviot's Homepage Send Daviot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Which particular volume is the Katashaka article in?


Brief mention in 4, but mostly in the 9th volume. Pages 12, 40-45 in the latter.

One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  19:56:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I explained elsewhere that that terrain you see was something I did a long time ago - I was just roughing stuff in to make a Katashaka-version of Nyambe. Basically, I was going to use Katashaka's outline from the FRCG, but use all the terrain and locales from the Nyambe campaign setting, and what you see there is me just pasting away with bits of terrain to get an idea for a layout.

Thats about as far as I got with it, and thats nowhere near what I would have like to have done (and will eventually, when I get back to it). I really just wanted to show the multiple island chains I created for my own CK article, to help someone flesh-out a pirate campaign, and that map (from the compendium) was part of the larger Katashaka one.

So it's not canon - it was me just messin' with stuff.

EDIT: I'm still eagerly awaiting Alaundo's posting of the Laerakond Map. <nudge, nudge>

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2012 19:23:52
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2012 :  19:25:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*** Casts Raise Scroll ***

I was looking for a thread with this title to ask some questions, and wouldn't you know it... it was a thread of mine!

Where can I find the MOST info on this place? Is the FRCG all there is?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2012 19:26:06
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

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4211 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2012 :  19:48:25  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They didn't do much of anything with it MT...perhaps you did more work than anyone not involved in releasing it...

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2012 :  21:18:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought there was a series of articles - I am sure there was at least a Gontal one (by Ed Greenwood and Bruce Cordel, IIRC) because I remember a discrepancy with Rimlost.

You do a Google search for 'Skelkor' and you wind up with a whole lot of nothing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2012 :  01:21:21  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I thought there was a series of articles - I am sure there was at least a Gontal one (by Ed Greenwood and Bruce Cordel, IIRC) because I remember a discrepancy with Rimlost.
There have been two articles on Gontal -- one in DRAGON #366, focusing on the region specifically, and then again in DRAGON #375 -- which treats the ruins called the Dominions of Nehu.

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 01 Dec 2012 :  18:19:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So that was it, eh? Seriously?

I thought there was more; ah, well...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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