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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 02:00:38
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The dichotomy of Low Netheril and High Netheril is the key to "explaining" much of what occurred to that realm. I have many thoughts, but most are in the "spitballing" stage. If you both come to GENCON we can talk about this stuff for hours!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 18:42:19
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I wish I could, but this is probably my brokest year ever. Seriously - my total projected income this year is $50. 
EDIT:
Need help again - anyone have a hard-copy of the Anauroch map? Once again, I can't really read the map-key. Most of them I can easily figure-out, but the first three mountain terrains - I can't read the secondary print there (I assume its the heights of the different mountain types).
Also, I was looking back over my semi-old Map of the Eastern Heartlands, and I thought I had gotten the two terrain-types for desert mixed-up, but it turns out, the Anauroch map itself got it wrong (I should have figured my research back then wouldn't let me make such a novice mistake)*. I've been meaning to post an updated version of that map, but I didn't because my main project was going to cover the same region. Had I know my main project would be delayed by almost two years I would have just gone for it. That map was missing a few settlements.
*The Plain of Standing Stones IS the 'badlands' type terrain, and the rest - except for the High Ice - is the 'sandy' type of desert. The official map would have you thinking otherwise (if I am reading that map key correctly). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2018 19:33:07 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 00:20:28
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OR... it could have just been a stupid mistake. 
The river passes through the mountains. Its clear as day to me
I did move the connecting piece south (from where I can see it on the super-imposed maps), so as to line-up better with the pass through the mountains you can see on the survivor-state map (there's a trail there that leads to the Tower of Ashaba). Interesting that Anauria has a trail leading to a drow stronghold, no? You don't build roads to people you are trying to avoid.
That same map doesn't show the river connection (because it ceased to exist after the Fall), but considering how off other things are on it (like the lake that's completely in the wrong spot - water ALWAYS travels to the lowest point it can reach, and the damn depression - where the lake was in Nethril - is RIGHT THERE), I have no problem nudging it a bit south, rather than create TWO passages through the mountains, right near each other. In fact, it makes perfect sense the 'new' trail followed the old, dry riverbed.
I also only just learned that river didn't get named 'Ashaba' until after a water-wizard merged himself with the river. The tower was HIS (after he defeated the drow the first time). So the whole thing - from its humble beginnings on the Narrow sea, right on to where it empties into the Dragon Reach at Scardale - was probably all called The River of Gems during the time of Netheril.
And I am starting to like the idea the Battle of Bones IS something fairly new. In fact, I'm almost sure of it at this point. Despite the backstory in the EE booklet (which are all notoriously 'erroneous' when it comes to FR's history), I think it began as a shattered enclave that rained-down in that area. However, because of the condition (and 'spread') of it, I was say it exploded while still high in the air. I know of at east one Flying Enclave that did that (I have to look it up). It would also go a LONG way in explaining some of the oddness in that region (including chaotic magical fluctuations).
EDIT:
Dubloon would make an interesting choice. Jockteleg could be another. Tenish has possibilities, especially considering it wasn't in the Netheril boxed set. There are a few others named in LEoF but not in the boxed set, but I could has sworn reading about one that actually exploded pre-Fall.
I also just came across the name of yet another 'lost kingdom' - Apothecs. I now have a name for my pre-Halaster Thaeravel people.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 03:05:52 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 01:42:31
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| The three mountains on the Anauroch map are from top to bottom: "Mountains (high), Mountains (medium), Mountains (low)" and then onto Foothills and Rolling Hills, etc. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 03:04:54
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Thank you, Tom.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 13:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont remember the dates but the twisted tower was not always drow occupied. The elves of cormanthyr cleared it out and anauria may have had the trail created during that time.
There was also a trail leading from basin lake through the mountains but it would have led to the human settlements in the cleared land around the river tesh (between cormanthor and rystall wood).
The rystall wood was for info created when a big meteor slammed into one of the three elven kingdoms in cormanthyr (the one with the famous library) which burned a big swathe of forest down along the river. This gap was widened later by the spider fires.
Cormanthyr reclaimed the Twisted Tower in -331 DR and lost it again in 194 DR. Perfect match with the rise of the Survivor States.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 20:46:32
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Can someone give me any source or insight into the People of the Black Sails? I keep seeing them mentioned from time to time on these boards but I've never been able to find much.
On Ghaethluntar, I have it as an enormous volcano with a family of red dragons covertly ruling over an empire of flinds (the flind part comes from Polyhedron 81, for the volcano and red dragons part I can't find my sources ...). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2018 : 02:46:30
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IIRC, it was only mentioned in the 2e Moonsea source, and that was it. there was no elaboration, as far as I recall. I just now reread the 'Brief History' section, and although not specifically label that way (that must be form somewhere else), this is what it says:
quote:
In the year 400 DR, the Year of the Blue Shield, it was. On a night later called the First Turnabout, the forces of the Dark Alliance swept down on the backs of black dragons and attacked Northkeep. What's more, a huge fleet of their black ships with ragged sails sacked and destroyed Northkeep.
After the attack, 40,000 humanoid priests, mages, and shamans stood on the shore of the Moonsea and chanted desperately to their gods. They must have been heard, because with a deafening crack, the city sank beneath the purple waves.
If I had to guess, I would say that's when the Ogre-kingdom of Thar and the Orc Kingdom of Vastar united under one banner. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2018 : 06:46:10
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On the comment above - I think there was an older source that actually said, "People of the Black Sails" - it may have been in the 1e/2e CG's even (I've checked every possible Moonsea source I could think of).
Onto my never-ending quest to find the (geographic) truth... Orifin & Orolin. It gets even better. Looking at my super-imposed maps (I've added like 6 more now), Orifin falls out EXACTLY on top of Canlespiere (a Netherese settlement), which used to be the Ogre city of Canth. So I have to keep Orifin and Orilin separate, otherwise we have, "Orolin, formerly Orofin, formerly Canlespiere, formerly Chanth". I can't do much about three of them, but Orolin was far enough away from orifin (and on the wrong side of mountains) so I can at least fix that. The city was Canlespiere (a city, BTW, they 'stole' from ogres, because it was so nice... and the Netherese had a hard time taking it, too... those were some pretty nifty ogres!) had to be the ruin now known as Orifin, and because of that, I can connect it to Orilin, just by saying it was a case of mistaken identity by the folks who discovered the ruins (they thought they had found Orilin... which they didn't even spell right). So now, there's never really been an 'Orofin' - it was just a scholarly error marked on some older maps.
I am trying something new here - gonna do the survivor state locales in my usual (black) icons, but I am going to color 'defunct' red, and 'future' blue, so that people can see how everything fell-out over time. I started out doing it all black, so now I have to change the flying enclaves. That minor, though. I think the little extra will be worth it.
So now we got us a group of what appears to be a fairly advanced (and well-organized) group f ogres, being chased out of Netheril (it took SEVEN YEARS!), just before we have the rise of an advance 'ogre Realm' just to the NE. We can easily fudge things to say the city of Chanth was the 'capital' of a realm of Chanth, so we can get better numbers... ermmm..
Nevermind. I just checked the dates (stupid Netheril-reckoning!) I forgot that source dates things differently - it happened in -2856 DR; WAY too far back to be useful to us. However, it does indeed establish a 'superior breed of ogres' living in the North in the distant past (Irda?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2018 06:59:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 01:51:29
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So I'm looking at the 'Backdrop Daggerdale' article in Dungeon #192, and can't help but wonder why someone who actually knew a little something about the place hadn't written the article.
Obviously, neither the author of cartographer had access to the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas. Its probably THE most crowed small region outside of Cormyr, in regards to 'locales and sites of interest', and nary a mention of ANY of them. Its as if the article was written just by using the old Dalelands source (map and all).
So annoying... I was hoping to find some new goodies. I should have known better than to seek an early 4e article (in the beginning, they seem to have taken the 'lore lite' approach to an extreme). Thank goodness I manage to get a couple of nifty things off of the Monument of the Ancients maps - the 4e material seemed to have gotten somewhat 'fluffier' over time.
On the flipside, I don't think I've had this much fun playing with maps in quite some time - I really like this 'multi-edition' approach. I feel like I am uncovering buried secrets. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2018 : 12:37:38
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Hey Mark, I was just trawling through Ed's "Elminster in Hell" and found that the Lost Peaks in the High Forest have a name: "Alander" (p.243 - hardcover). Ed just keeps sneaking this stuff in. Cheers.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2018 : 18:08:28
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Thanks George!
And while I have your attention, on the Cormanthor map in issue #354 of Dragon, there is a site called 'Caronal' just above Mistledale - you wouldn't happen to now where that from?
Also, something I'm almost embarrassed to ask about - On my semi-old (like 6 years now) map Map of the North (really, the entirety of the Western Heartlands - pretty-much the same exact area Mike Schley covered in his 5e map), I have a mountain in Anauroch labeled 'Mount Skyfell' that I can turn up NOTHING on. Its between the Far Forest and the High Ice, and its not on any other maps. However, on the warped 3e maps there is a 'lonely mountain' just SW of the 'A' in Anauroch, so I think that's where I may have taken it from. But I have no idea about that name, unless I tried to find out where it came from, and then was like, "it just fell from the sky" (and so, I named it that). Weird thing is, I have no recollection of this, so I was hoping it might ring a bell for you (some obscure source that said 'something huge fell in the desert'). I used to never worry about making notes on stuff like this, but as I get older my memory isn't 100% anymore (when I was younger I had automatic 100% retention of EVERYTHING - I could literally repeat the lines of a movie I had just seen verbatim).
Alas, such has not been the case in years... getting old sucks.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 05:42:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2018 : 19:15:05
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I've found some problems with the lore and locale placements on the Netheril map I a working on (not quite Netheril, but the Netheril locations will all be noted on it), as in, "it don't make sense".
For example, Wreath falls out right on top of Evereska, and since Evereska was established in -8600 DR, it makes no sense. It also makes no sense that there is zero interaction between Netheril and those elves, when both Illefarn and Eaerlann (and Delzoun) are named as trading partners, and the 'trademeet' town of Westwendt is right near there! Solution: Move Wreath into the northern section of the Greycloak Hills (as opposed to the southern section where Evereska is), and then just say that a very powerful series of Illusion magics were cast on Evereska to obscure it from the Netherese. The Mythal there would have been raised between -5300 DR (1st city Mythal) and the founding of Netheril in -3859 DR. However, the elves did not feel the illusions were necessary until the Netherse started showing magical might (or more likely, Thaeravel, which preceded Netheril and was right on Evereska's eastern border). So these illusions and obfuscation (anti-divination) magics were layered on top of the Mythal, and were powered by it, but NOT part of the original High-Magic ritual which created it. Thus, when The Weave fell in -339 DR, that magic was stripped away, leaving Evereska exposed. It was not discovered by non-elves until 244 DR (although one can surmise that the goblinoids and other monstrous types had been aware of it for most of that time after the 'Stealth' magic was ripped away). Evereskan elves wishing to trade at Westwendt and elsewhere would have simply posed as Illefarni of Earlann elves (humans would have never known the difference, and other elves certainly weren't telling).
Which brings me to Westwendt and Unity. Unity is a fortified city that was created to house not only Netherese troops, but those of the elves and dwarves as well, in order to combat the serious threat of humanoids and other monsters in the Greypeak Mountains. All four nations (possibly five if Evereska was sending disguised troops as well*) were present in Unity. Then we have the 'trade village' of Westwendt, where the elves and dwarves went to trade with the humans of Netheril (and laos the Angardt and rengerth, presumably. I'd probably lump the Thaeraviltes in there as well, early-on. In fact, it probably would make sense if it was original a Thaeravelan outpost FIRST... hmmmm...
Anyhow, it doesn't make sense (to me) that traders from Illefarn, Eaerlann, and Delzoun (those are specifically named in canon) would have marched all the way south, bypassing or going through unity, which was a city they already shared! While it could be said that Unity was primarily an armed camp, it was a permanent settlement, and unless there was a very strict law/reason for not allowing any 'non-essential personal' inside, I would think traders would have felt FAR safer trading there in tiny, remote (and often attacked) Westwendt. So my initial thoughts here was to simply swap the two around, so that traveling merchants would get to Westwendt first. However, my mentioning Thaeravel just now gave me an inspiration - what if Westwendt was the furthest NE city of Land of Alabaster Towers, and they were trading with the elves and dwarves (and others) first? Then the Netherese violently annex Thaeravel into their empire, and they build Unity, which slowly takes the place of old Westwendt.
Now, we have almost nothing on Thaeravel, but it seems to me that the best way to spin things in their case is that they weren't good. Maybe not 'evil', per se, but their fondness for 'Shadow Magic' probably made a lot of folk nervous, and the attack on them may have even been at the coaxing of the elves themselves (so rather than everyone getting angry at Netheril for their 'blitzkrieg tactics', they were likely relieved to have a potential threat averted) Unfortunately, Netheril itself eventually became a much bigger threat than Thaeravel ever was. The surviving Thaeravelites would have mostly been the 'commoners' - normal Talfirfolk who didn't care which group of foreigners ruled them (because in my version, expatriate Imaskari created Thaeravel). This is when the first signs of Netheril splitting into 'High' & 'Low' would have occurred - non-Netherese (people who were NOT of ancient Gur bloodlines) would have been 'looked down upon', both figuratively, and later, literally, as the enclaves rose into the sky. There were probably VERY strict rules about non-Netherse blooded people living in High Netheril, who were consider the 'elite' of their growing empire (much like the Romans who were actually from Rome).
So just about all of southern Netheril used to be Thaeravel, and the 'low' Netherese probably still preferred to trade at Westwendt, whereas the High netherese were able to conduct business at the Fortress-city of unity. Some of this is actually support by canon - Westwendt would often have to petition unity for help against humanoids and bandits, and Unity's response was usually underwhelming, giving me the distinct impression that 'the elite' looked down at most of the grundling settlements with great disdain, and did little to help them (they were almost always 'on their own'). This seems to go deeper than just a 'rise of aristocracy' and/or the usual class differences found among real human nations, which is why I get the distinct impression that there was a huge 'racial divide' as well. They literally let some settlements be wiped out (when the easily could have done something), while other settlements - ones that were of some importance to them - were protected and would retaliate explosively for harm done to them. I almost feel like when they 'ascended into the air', the Netherese left some of their humanity behind.
*EDIT:
And Ammarindar, which would have included Unity in its own lands later on.
quote:
–3373 DR
King Azkuldar of Ammarindar initiates trade relations with the magic-wielding humans of Netheril.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2018 19:23:31 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 05:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks George!
And while I have your attention, on the Cormanthor map in issue #354 of Dragon, there is a site called 'Caronal' just above Mistledale - you wouldn't happen to now where that from?
Also, something I'm almost embarrassed to ask about - On my semi-old (like 6 years now) map Map of the North (really, the entirety of the Western Heartlands - pretty-much the same exact area Mike Schley covered in his 5e map), I have a mountain in Anauroch labeled 'Mount Skyfell' that I can turn up NOTHING on. Its between the Far Forest and the High Ice, and its not on any other maps. However, on the warped 3e maps there is a 'lonely mountain' just SW of the 'A' in Anauroch, so I think that's where I may have taken it from. But I have no idea about that name, unless I tied to find out where it came from, and then was like, "it just fell from the sky" (and so, I named it that). Weird thing is, I have no recollection of this, so I was hoping it might ring a bell for you (some obscure source that said 'something huge fell in the desert'). I used to never worry about making notes on stuff like this, but as I get older my memory isn't 100% anymore (when I was younger I had automatic 100% retention of EVERYTHING - I could literally repeat the lines of a movie I had just seen verbatim).
Alas, such has not been the case in years... getting old sucks.
Caronal is from FOR1 Draconomicon (p.110) and Cult of the Dragon (p.49).
I've got nothing on Mount Skyfell. It might be a Markustay original.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 05:41:20
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| Thanks for the quick response GK. I'll have to write that one down in my geography notes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 05:42:39
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Re Wreathe and Unity. Examining the lovely to look at but horribly drawn map from the Netheril boxed set - and if we take the Purple Mountains to be the Graycloak Hills and Evereskan Mountains (I think the southern mountain group isn't called the Graycloak Hills, but I digress) - then Unity is way to the north, bordering the current-day Far Forest on the east in my view, while Westwendt Village is on the western edge of that forest further south, bordering Ammarindar. I don't actually see Wreathe as that much of a problem. It is on the southwestern edge of the Evereskan Mountains bordering the current-day Forgotten Forest. The Netheril boxed set notes that humans don't enter the Purple Mountains because of dragons, and I see the Evereskan elves surrounding themselves with powerful dragons like Karselridrith ("Brightstrike" - I named her for Dragons of Faerűn) to deter other races while keeping their hidden city inviolate. The destruction of Wreathe only serves to ensure that no humans settle nearby after that event. I do like it being a northwestern settlement of fallen Thaeravel though. Given that it was a simple hunting village, I can't see the elves revealing themselves to do anything about it. When the humans started to explore the mountains more boldly, they used their controlled dragons to wipe them out.
-- George Krashos
P.S. Would love to get my hands on that Netheril map. Need the geography right in my head to sort out the place. |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 03 Mar 2018 05:43:34 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 05:44:32
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Re Wreathe and Unity. Examining the lovely to look at but horribly drawn map from the Netheril boxed set - and if we take the Purple Mountains to be the Graycloak Hills and Evereskan Mountains (I think the southern mountain group isn't called the Graycloak Hills, but I digress) - then Unity is way to the north, bordering the current-day Far Forest on the east in my view, while Westwendt Village is on the western edge of that forest further south, bordering Ammarindar. I don't actually see Wreathe as that much of a problem. It is on the southwestern edge of the Evereskan Mountains bordering the current-day Forgotten Forest. The Netheril boxed set notes that humans don't enter the Purple Mountains because of dragons, and I see the Evereskan elves surrounding themselves with powerful dragons like Karselridrith ("Brightstrike" - I named her for Dragons of Faerűn) to deter other races while keeping their hidden city inviolate. The destruction of Wreathe only serves to ensure that no humans settle nearby after that event. I do like it being a northwestern settlement of fallen Thaeravel though. Given that it was a simple hunting village, I can't see the elves revealing themselves to do anything about it. When the humans started to explore the mountains more boldly, they used their controlled dragons to wipe them out.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 06:09:22
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Well, when I superimposed all the maps (I think I have 27 now 'stacked'), Wreathe falls-out practically on top of Evereska.
Another cool one is Lundeth and Thievesward are in basically the same spot. You can see it HERE on this snippet of the chrono-map I'm working on. The darker circle is my icon representing both (in other words, Lundeth was built on the ruins of Thievesward, which makes a lot of sense, when you think about it - just more crooks!) And as you can also see, Kismet and Rasalith are VERY much the same place (which screws the history up a bit, I'm afraid). Of course, something that eventually became part of the empire would have its history 'white-washed' but left primarily intact (the Netherese just erased all references to their southern holdings having once been Thaeravel). It was a fairly common practice RW, as well (erase the history of a place, and within one generation those people are your people).
Another oddity was that Ammarindar's Citadel Yaunoroth wound-up VERY close to the Ruins of Dekanter, but Dekanter has moved around a lot and it also makes some sense, since Ammarindar and Netheril were friends at the beginning, but then the dwarves stopped trusting them (so, drop a fortress near their annoying mining-operation to keep an eye on them).
This is WHY I do this - as I work on these, the maps start to tell me a story.
Like, for instance, why doesn't the Battle of Bones exist at the time of Netheril? Its more like a vast 'debris field' ('riddled with caves and tunnels'). Seems to me like something exploded over that spot (it couldn't have just crashed - it is spread-out to much). Unless.... it was very large enclave that was VERY high... hit the ground like a meteor and blew apart (the place does look a LOT like a crater in the Elminster's Ecologies booklet). But I'm actually thinking about repurposing the one Erin mentioned in her books, that wasn't even in the Netheril box - Tenish. I'd expand the name though (something like Tenishaar, or the like). In her lore another mage - Tarchamus the Unyielding - blew it up. That works for me.
What I love about all this is that I'm following Ed's vision - ruins built on top of ruins built on top of ruins, etc. When you dig in the anywhere in the Realms, you'll soon be finding the 'bones' of the last folk who lived there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 22:03:00 |
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 08:00:17
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I was just thinking, I would love to see a working map of the feywild. I'm currently running a campaign where my players might possibly Venture into the feywild and there is very limited Maps.
If I could find a few Maps like the fey Court, I can just use theater of the Mind for the rest. Anyone know where I can find such thing? |
Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.
(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)
-Elren Wolfsbane |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 17:42:10
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There was a map in Heroes of the Feywild, but if you want a better resolution than THIS, you'll have to purchase it from Mike Schley's site - (Its only $2).
I have plans to do a very un-detailed, world-map kind of thing eventually, and I say 'undetailed' because we are talking about a plane that's basically a miniature copy of the entire known material universe. LOL
Hey Krash, where was Uvarean? The only post I found on this site was one made by me 10 years ago, and it was just a reference to their burial rites. It was also know as "The Lorelands", and must have been fairly close to - or IN - Cormyr.
EDIT:
Nevermind - should have kept reading. It appears to have been centered on Mistledale. That should prove helpful... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 17:46:20 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 21:11:36
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But according to the lore regarding the Lorestaffs of Uvarean, some of the famous 'libraries' of Uvarean can be unearthed in Mistledale (it DOES say most were destroyed, though). So, Uvarean's capital may have been at one site (the center point for the meteor impact), while there may have been another university-like settlement around Mistledale. Okay, so I just now discovered that at some point, 'Uvarean' was changed to Uvaeren' - no wonder I couldn't find anything!!!
Now, superimposing the maps have revealed to me that the whole of the east (from Netheril) was forest, and then stuff happened and on the survivor-state map, it shows areas where there is no forest, and then later - on 'modern' maps - some of that forest is back. The only problem with all that is that that meteor ('tearfall') hit that area in -5000 DR, WAY before Netheril ever existed (Seventon was founded in -3859 DR). So we can't blame that phenomena on that tearfall (although, once you start really studying the histories and geography, you realize Toril gets hit with a planet-killer sized asteroid about every other week LOL). No wonder there are so many damn craters everywhere....
As for the inconsistencies with Uvaeren/Uvarean, I have several ways to resolve that, and all of them revolve around the two slightly different names. I think the best would be this: Uvaeren was the 'realm', and it existed as part of Cormanthyr (when the forest was 'whole'). Uvarean was the capitol, and it was located in the region of Mistledale (not that far away, really). Ya know, 'Mistledale' looks like a swath of woods that got hit with a 'missile' - a shallow-trajectory impact, burning the surrounding trees as it skidded along the ground. Hmmmmm... never realized it before, but that clump of mountains at the far end of that theoretical impact has never had a name in canon. I always assume it was a northern extension of the Thunder Peaks, but now I am thinking I have been very, VERY wrong. I see the word 'shadow' appears around there a lot. Hmmm hmmm HMMMMMM... 
Anyhow, back to Uv-whatever. Moander... errrr... I mean 'big giant rock'... comes crashing to Toril, and the majority of the realm (Uvaeren) winds up north of the 'scar'. Pieces of the main object break-off and wreak havoc in other parts of the forest, including one fairly large piece that strikes Uvarean, the capital, which is situated around Mistledale. Now, Elven architecture isn't anything like human's. In the past few millennia 'bad habits' have rubbed-off, but Elves do NOT build great, closely-clustered, high-building metropoli. An eleven 'city' could spread over 50 miles, with some buildings acres - even miles - apart. This was Mistledale, the old 'city' of Uvarean. After the tearfall only the northern portion (The Border Forest) is still considered Uvaeren, although The coronal and nearly all of Uvaeren’s noble houses die instantly or during the conflagration. Few Uvaeranni escape to the safety of deeper Arcorar, aside from those few dozen away from the realm during this disaster."
And yet, there are still entries for 'Rystel Wood' with a caronel. How peculiar. 
The elves history is a complete MESS. Uvaeren could NOT have BEEN Rystal wood, because THAT realm still existed. Uvaeren was definitely IN Mistledale and the surrounding region - it even had interaction with early Cormyr (there are tombs there from Uvarean). Rystal Wood was further north, and still existed after the Twelve Nights of Fire. I am starting to think that separation in the forest of Cormanthor form The Border Forest is NOT the same event nor area that these events are talking about!
I don't need to split that 'tearfall' (although it does make sense -- normal meteorites DO do that). That IS the one that created the way Mistledale looks now - the forest never regrew there (as it had in other places). I just now found what I was looking for -
quote:
–2439 DR
The Spiderfires: Drow inflict the greatest damage upon the forests since the Twelve Nights of Fire by setting the southern Rystall Woods aflame with a swarm of spiders made from arcane fire. After a long, dry summer, the woods burn easily. This clears nearly one hundred miles of forest south of the River Tesh, severs the southernmost part of the woods around and to the west of the Twisted Tower from the greater Rystall Woods, and widens the cleared lands between them and Cormanthor.
I KNEW there had to be a second fire! The Twelve Nights of fire created Mistledale, where Uvaeren/Uvarean was. All that woods north and west of Mistldale was part of Rystall Wood, including Shadowdale . I think there was some mountains there (and those 'crystaline' mountains still exist on Abeir, but have appeared in that area at least TWICE during times of 'magical chaos'), but the 'object' that fell from the sky obliterated the existing range and created just that mass that sits there, between the Thunderpeaks and Desertsmouth... Ummmm.... 
Going ALL THE WAY back, even pre-1e, I see that that was one long, continuous chain of mountains - even on the Fonstad atlas maps, the mountains to the 'left' of the Dales are considered part of the Thunderpeaks! 
I was hoping to link this to the butterfly-shaped thing that hit Cormyr, but that must have been MUCH more ancient. My head is starting to hurt. I just want to draw pretty maps. I am starting to get this weird idea that Ravenloft and The Forgotten Realms are much more alike than I had ever thought. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 21:20:33 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 20:16:35
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Well, I have never been big on Elven history. I avoided Cormnathyr because I felt a lot of elven history was contradictory to other things (for example, a LOT of Nethril lore). FR lore 'looks good' in close-up, regionally, but when you 'pan back' it starts to stop making sense. The reason why maps take me so goddamn long is because each 12-hour day I spend working on them, only a half hour goes to drawing and 11˝ goes to me looking for all the 'WTF' moments in the the lore.
And then I get people who ABSOLUTELY insist that two things must be different things, just because we have two names for it, even if the two things existed in the same place at the same time. I've pulled my hair out over one of those conundrums awhile back, when someone I respect very much refused to say two forests were the same, even though I proved they had to be, geographically. And there was a VERY simple fix for it - one name derived directly from Elven lore, and the other, human lore, and yet that person didn't want to do that because it 'mucked with his history' for the region. Sometimes leaving lore 'pristine' (no alterations) is worse, IMHO, than trying to fudge stuff to the point of implausibility (and I've giving up on the "two different versions of the same NPC" thing a long time ago - that ship has sailed).
And the idea that there were 'different forests' in the Heartlands is ludicrous in and of itself. There were TWO, and just barely - one on one side of the plains of Anauroch, and one on the other - a thousand or so years ago. If you go back further, even that region was probably covered with trees. What comes off as 'separate forests' in elven lore is more like 'districts' in human thinking - there was no actual, physical separation - no empty swath of land between stands of trees! Funny how folks who design fantasy settings for a living can't wrap their mind around the idea that the same concepts might mean very different things in an alien culture. For example, the difference between an elven 'city' and an elven 'realm' would be negligible; elven 'cities' were large, sprawling affairs where the buildings would have been very far - perhaps in miles in some cases - apart. Both words would have translated pretty-much into elven as the same word. Country/nation would also be less geographic, and more based upon which 'realm' a group of elves answered to, and thus, part of one 'kingdom' could lie within other 'kingdoms' - they had no concept of 'borders' (which is why FR doesn't have the concept - in a world where humans learned culture form others, these sorts of things would have carried-over; Ed Greenwood is a VERY smart man). The dwarves even more so - you could literally have kingdoms 'stacked' one atop the other, and if they are far enough apart (depth), they may not even be aware of each other. Thus, the dwarven ideas of 'realms' would different from both the elves and the humans (dwarves would find it hysterical that earthlings consider everything 'straight down' from them theirs... when it all 'meets in the middle' anyway (think about THAT, when you consider things like oil-drilling 'rights'). Earthers also consider everything above their land theirs (the concept of 'airspace'), which would also be laughable in the Realms. When you have folks living both above and below you, the whole idea of 'borders' goes right out the window.
Yet, rather than try to reinterpret all the lore with that in mind, the powers that be instead try to keep it all strictly to the human definitions, which causes inconsistencies, and we windup getting convoluted stories to explain the inconsistencies... which were never really there in the first place. {sigh}
I may just finish a part of this map - the part that initially interested me (and then just kept growing as I went 'further out' to see what would have been there). I started out just wanting to know where the damn Shaddan Hills were (and they weren't at all where I thought they were - in fact, they become problematic). trying to get the Netheril (and survivor-state) maps to work within the greater FR lore is a chore, but it gets so much worse when I start having to backwards-engineer 3e and 4e map stuff (have you ever tried to apply the Monument of the Ancients map to a real FR map? HAVE FUN). This is why when I get to the Unapproachable east (very soon - my main project has become linked to someone else's), I have used the maps from the 3e source book, because they were the most detailed, and it was far easier for me to 'fudge' the old geography to fit that, then the other way around (something I totally DIDN'T do when working on the Heartlands).
But the Moonsea area has always been my albatross - no two maps - even form the same edition - are quite the same. Someday I'll get it perfect... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2018 20:49:01 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2018 : 00:20:42
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So I just did something new. I've used the Fonstad atlas maps for the basis for most of my maps, because according to Ed, "they are the most like my original Realms". Now, I stopped using the atlas itself years ago, because I found a really good scan someone did online, piecing it all together. Thus, I rarely ever reference the atlas itself, except on the very few occasions when something doesn't appear on the main maps (like the lake in the Evermoor).
But today - in my desire to get 'the most perfect' rendition of Cormyr ever (and I've started about 20 Cormyr maps, at least, but have never published any of them because I never finished any), I went into the atlas itself and grabbed one of the close-up maps she did for the Eastern heartlands, and a LOT of stuff 'pops' much more clearly when I did this (I also pasted both halves into a blown-up rendition of the main map, and it didn't even line-up perfectly - so maps even within the same product are sometimes slightly inconsistent (and yeah, its that damn Moonsea again LOL). I'm pretty certain Zhentil Keep is on wheels, and they just shove the thing around every once in awhile.
ANYWAY, I noticed something that is not evident on any other maps, and since Karen Fonstad had access to all of Ed's originals - and was also able to interact with him while it was being made - I have to assume this isn't something she just made up herself. The Wyvernwater is sitting in a depression; there are cliffs all around it. Now, I have always felt that something slammed into Cormyr many millennia ago - it may have been part of the same object that created the Sea of Fallen Stars, and I am glad to finally see some hard evidence to that effect. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 21:59:42 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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My maps
