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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  20:24:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, I go the other way with everything (mostly because my theories aren't just based on D&D lore, they're based on ALL established lore in folklore, mythology, and scify/Fantasy works) - that deities NEED mortals to survive. Thats the 'default setting' for the Universe. Just because most other Crystal Spheres don't point that out (and why would gods want that known?), doesn't mean its not how it works. In just about everything I've ever read, gods slip into some form of coma/death when they lose all their followers. However, Crystal Spheres are like very complex computer programs... even 'suites' of programs, and the Spheric Guardians can merely 'flip a switch' to turn various options on & off. A lazy Overower might just leave everything at the 'default' setting (the bum running Greyhawk does this LOL). You can even 'download' your own 'skins' for your interface (cosmology) to customize it - I hear 'The Tree' one is very popular.

So (I believe) Abeir-Toril had the 'default' settings where the gods were concerned at the beginning. Deities (note I am not using 'gods' - see below) depended upon their followers for power. This is very important to 'The Balance', which is why most Overpowers don't play with this setting. But after the WoL&D and Ao was forced to separate the Estelar from the Primordials, he changed the settings so that 'fighting over followers' would no longer be an issue (because after separating the worlds, some Gods were going to have an unfair advantage over others). Without checking the warnings in the manual, he set it for 'God power based on portfolios held', and thought that would be it. Little did he know it would eventually lead to deities just ignoring their followers, and instead concentrating on grabbing as many portfolios as they could from other gods. For a dude in charge of Gods, he isn't a very good judge of their characters. Mystryl benefited the most by this mistake - she gained power from EVERYTHING related to magic... on a High-Magic world... where there were even lots of gods and priesthoods throwing around magic (so she basically got her 'cut' {tithe} if every other god's power).

Shar: "Sister dear, I know you're the head cheerleader and everyone loves you, but aren't you being a bit unfair?"
Mystryl: "Shut the hell up you little emo-Goth turd! I AM THE TYRANT OF MAGIC! I will rule this Sphere! Its all mine I tell you! MINE!!! Now go crawl back into your dark little hole under the stairs, you ugly little wretch!"
Shar: {whimper}

Mystryl was so greedy, she even took the restraints of the power (spell) level off mortal magic, just so she could get more 'Juice'. And then it happened - Karsus did his thing (mostly because Shar steered his research... she's such a kind and goodly thing), her 'magical cartel' (The Weave) collapsed, she 'died', and magic went bye-bye. Ao grabs whats left of The Weave (being propped-up by her proxies and Chosen), and 'glues' the sentience of a special girl (thats canon, BTW) to it, and creates Mystra. He then sits her down and explains to her that she shouldn't allow mortals to go past the 'default' spell level of '9' (you'd think he'd follow his own advise about playing with the settings), and if she does that again (she's a little confused by this) he'd put her over his knee and spank her. Not the normal way an Overpower punishes a god, but it seems to work wonders for Sune (or so he claims) He's also used it quite a few times on Sharess... which is probably why Shar has 'Daddy issues'.

*AHEM*

Anyhow, it all seems to be working fine again, except he stupidly left his own setting-error in-place, where dieties continue to get power from their portfolios. He also told Shar to 'keep an eye on' Mystra and her Weave, and gives her a back-door password. She knew she'd make good use of THAT. Time goes by, and all sorts of things happen, like the 'Dark Three' gang jumping poor Jergal, and Shar 'ate' her imaginary friend, Ibrandul (some folks think Shar herself is Selūne's imaginary friend). All sorts of interlopers beating-down other interlopers (Orcgate wars), etc., etc., until finally those same hooligans - 'the Dark Three' rob Ao's crib and steal all his mixed tapes... and Tablets of Fate (I'm pretty sure he was actually more mad about those mixed tapes - you just can't find good cassette recordings anymore).

So he puts them ALL - even ones not even remotely involved - in 'Time Out' (the ToT). Except for Helm, because he was always "daddy's favorite" (actually, he was a kiss-arse who always ratted the others out). Eventually he gets his stupid tablets back (he never did find the mixed-tapes), and punishes the culprits. He also accidentally managed to kill a few other gods (and millions of mortals) by doing all this, including Mystra. He grabs some girl standing on the rooftop (she probably reminded him of Shar) and said, "Hey you! You should have minded your own business! Now I'm going to punish you by making you the goddess of magic!" (it never ends well for them). He also finally remembers to reset the 'Godly Powers' to default, so from then-on, instead of killing each other, they'd go back to the normal way of divinely doing things - having their followers kill each other.

So thats how I believe things went down (more or less ), and that Ao didn't change 'the rules' after the Tot, he just changed them back to how they should have been. Gods became dependent upon their worshipers again.

*When I write, and I say 'Gods', I mean everything above the mortal power-tier, which would include, but not be limited to, Estelar, Primordials, Primal Spirits, Archfey, archfiends, Arch-everything else, Beast Lords, 'Cosmic Powers', etc., etc. - just about anything that could show up and mortals would say, "Oh, s***". If I write 'gods' (rarely, with small 'g'), I mean deities - those beings that mortals call gods, which are really just ascended mortals who have gotten a hold of a 'deific template' - this all falls under another set of rules/theories I have, which now helps explain primordials as well ('spontaneous gods'). Its basically a 'loophole' in the universe's code, that some mortals have learned how to exploit (although the first few cases were probably all 'accidents').

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Here is as I understand it.

Supreme Overpower appears (Master, Luminous Being, whatever), created multiverse.

Minor Overpowers appear (Ao, Lady of Pain, the Serpent, the World Serpent, etc.), set about to order this multiverse.

Concepts appear (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, Neutrality). Begin to fight because reasons. Create agents for this war, such as Obyriths, and those.

Gods and primordials appears. They create mortal worlds and the first mortals.

Dawn War, multiverse in chaos. Some primordials join the gods. Multiverse is saved.

Individual histories of each sphere.

Beyond the creation of the world, I really doubt mortals need to know more. The Luminous Being exist, yeah. Do mortals know about it? I dunno. They barely know about Ao and the gods.

They need to know about this? I don't think so.
I would make only one change - that EVERYTHING is technically a 'God' (capital 'G'). When you say 'Gods and Primordials', you really mean 'Estelar & Primordials' (which should both be 'Gods', and helps fix a lot of old lore retroactively).

When we say 'gods' (small 'g'), we usually mean deities - those ascended mortals (some of which may have ascended during the days of Thunder, so age isn't part of the equation, just 'source') who are actually one of the lowest echelons of 'The Gods'. I might make allowances for some rare few who have 'proven their worth' to have graduated to hire tiers in the Cosmic Pyramid. For example, in Lovecraft's writings, Cthulhu wasn't even 'a God' - he was a 'high priest' of the elder Gods. In D&D terms, that means he should be 'of this universe (something deeply corrupted - a Batrachi?), and he just worships things from the Far Realms (like Hastur, who is called "He who should not be named", sort of like 'The Dark God'. eh?) So if anyone would qualify as a 'mortal (Creator-race) made good' (Elder Evil), it would be him. He is not the same being i call 'Cthon' - Cthon is more of a concept than a rational entity. How can 'Chaos Incarnate' have a rational thought? Thats why it has minions, like Tharizdun.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2017 21:18:23
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  20:36:45  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How do you explain deities existing before their followers (particularly racial deities), then? This is why I say they can exist before their followers/without worship, but once they have created a race/followers, they have to take some form of responsibility, and become more dependent on their followers. This helps bridge the gap between gods needing followers, and gods existing prior to their followers.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Aug 2017 20:38:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  21:35:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".

I could easily fix it, though. The first of a pantheon (the one who is usually accredited for creating his/her 'race') is created by something else (it wouldn't be 'spontaneous' because thats just the universe responding to a need, and no-one needs a god of a race that doesn't exist yet), and then the rest of the pantheon happens naturally, as the race matures. ONE gods creates them (which is how it is - or a couple - in nearly every mythos), and the rest of the gods 'just happen'. Only deities need their worshipers, because that is their purpose. Every other 'cosmic entity' doesn't need faithful - they can exist without them. Just say Corellon isn't a 'deity', is all. And that's how I would resolve that, if I were so inclined...

But I'm not. I already have my Fey Mythology, and Elven mythology is just a branch off of that. Corellon is just the 'bad son' who rebelled against 'the Heavens' (Faerie), and was 'cast out' (he left and founded Tintageer). El-Adrin = "wayward offspring". The Fallen. Most chose to stay behind with Oberron and Titania - El-Ves = "Loyal Children".

Lets see, somewhat androgynous, has pointy ears, has it in for humans (mortals), and in some myths elves have 'tails' (Huldrafolk). Am I missing anything? What are his 'Boots of Elvenkind' hiding, hmmmm? Cloven hooves? And he probably has a fake 'evil Spock' goatee he wears when he's at home, in Hell...

I think we all know who Corellon REALLY is.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2017 21:38:44
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  21:46:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  22:28:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them.

The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.


Mind, I came from 4e, not before, so:

1. I'm accustomed for "deities are useful" and are involved in world affairs.
2. The Nentir Vale gods don't interact with mortals, just manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and that stuff. So, for me deities interacting actively with mortals was a unique (and attractive) feature of the Realms.

So, from my point of view, making the gods of the Realms behave like the gods of the Nentir Vale is killing a unique aspect of the Realms.

Notice, that I also respect that is what Ed wanted for the Realms, so I have come to terms with it (it took me a few months, though... I was like Dazzler before); but doesn't mean that I like that approach.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

However... when it comes to the cosmology we have to work some stuff out. Like, for example, Banehold is an actual place you can go to and visit. Is it possible to bump into Bane there? If not, then what does it look like? What does someone visiting this plane find and see?


This is why I like better the 4e approach than the 2e one you guys want to take. Is direct, is reliable, and doesn't contradict itself with every other lore written about the same topic.

How are the gods described in 4e:
"Deities are the most powerful immortal creatures, residents of the countless dominions that swirl through the Astral Sea. They appear in dreams and visions to their followers and wear countless different faces, and artwork depicting them shows them in a variety of forms. Their true nature is beyond any physical form. Corellon is often depicted as an eladrin, but he is no more an eladrin than he is a fey panther—he is a god, and he transcends the physical laws that bind even angels to their concrete forms."

4e PHB, p.20 (mind, this is about Nentir Vale gods, but the concepts apply to the Realms gods as well).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  23:03:59  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them.

The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.


Mind, I came from 4e, not before, so:

1. I'm accustomed for "deities are useful" and are involved in world affairs.
2. The Nentir Vale gods don't interact with mortals, just manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and that stuff. So, for me deities interacting actively with mortals was a unique (and attractive) feature of the Realms.

So, from my point of view, making the gods of the Realms behave like the gods of the Nentir Vale is killing a unique aspect of the Realms.

Notice, that I also respect that is what Ed wanted for the Realms, so I have come to terms with it (it took me a few months, though... I was like Dazzler before); but doesn't mean that I like that approach.



The gods have long been active in the Realms, even before 4e. I agree they add a unique flavor, and have been one of my favorite aspects of the setting. However, I am willing to have them interact more indirectly, especially because that was Ed's intention. I just don't want them to become so far removed that they might as well not be there. I still want them to be active, even if the way they are active changes.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  23:47:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, thats part of the problem. Well, depending on what definition of 'god' we are going with. I don't think 'gods' are the most powerful beings. We KNOW Ao is above them, and we KNOW there is 'something' above Ao (HIS 'Boss'). However, if we just use my definition of 'God', then its a catch-all that includes all of those levels of beings (in other words, if something appears in front of a bunch of people, and can do stuff beyond the abilities of any other mortal around, people would refer to that as 'a God'). Humans may have thought Elves were gods at some point (come to think of it, wouldn't it be a kick in the head if it was HUMANS that caused the Seldarine to ascend?).

In OD&D, in the world of Mystara, they didn't even call them 'gods' - they called them Immortals. Most of them suspect there is a 'layer' of beings above them. One spent a lot of time trying to find out... and went missing. No-one knows if he 'ascended further', or something bad happened to him because he was asking too many questions. Nice and simple - the designers don't have to answer too many questions that way.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?
Didn't he achieve demigodhood status while he was still known? I don't really remember all the details - I only have one of the books right now - I should try rereading it (I hate when I don't have the whole set, though).

From what I remember, he became a demigod because of his body of work (the 'adulation' thing), but because he wouldn't let anyone modify his work, something happened (the gods cursed him? I forget?) and everyone forgot who he was. Ostensibly, that should have destroyed him (the same trick seems to have worked on Kiaransalee). I recall my thoughts at the time were along the lines of "his body of work was still receiving acknowledgment, and thus, even though they managed to wipe his name from it, there was still a 'trickle' he was getting from that, sustaining him at a very weak state.

But even if he got nothing from it, he still wouldn't be dead DEAD. Gods don't 'die'. Then again, neither do mortals, really. Mortals just go somewhere else, and gods go into this comatose state in the astral (which is why I ascertain Finder had to have been getting some power still). The only permanent death that we know of (and we don't know if it would work on gods) is going into the River Styx. It literally erases all traces of you.

Some of my RW beliefs play into this - a 'spirit' (soul) never fades away completely, until the very last person has forgotten about them. I think in the case of those 'ghost legends', what happens is that the legends themselves wind up 'anchoring' the spirit in-place, so it gets 'stuck'. Just like gods (and in Asian philosophy, 'gods' are spirits - just greater ones), they depend on the thoughts of other to stick around. Isn't there a TV series out right now that plays to this theme? (American Gods)

So, basically, even though no-one remembered Finder himself, they remembered 'his stuff', and that was enough... just barely. Thus, it is true an unworshiped god can 'get by', at a near-mortal (DvR 0, Quasi-deity) state, if he has some 'worldly attachment' to something he's left behind (maybe thats why Vecna leaves his hand and eye lying around).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 00:19:41
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5654 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:12:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".



Some are just honest about it, like Leira, and they're treated bad for doing so. Go figure.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5654 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:17:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13822 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:26:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think he had some sort of quasi-deity status before that, but I may be wrong. I recall him getting 'full godhood' from Moander (which is weird, because didn't Moander come back as well?

Thats the problem with gods like him, and Ghaunadaur, etc... you leave a piece of stinky cheese out, or maybe some moldy bread on a garbage heap, and the next thing you know *POOF* they're back!

"Wait... what? Did you order the Blue Cheese dressing on your salad? WITH MUSHROOMS!? Dear god! Someone call a priest! We need an exorcism!"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 00:26:50
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:29:42  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

See, thats part of the problem. Well, depending on what definition of 'god' we are going with. I don't think 'Gods' are the most powerful beings. We KNOW Ao is above them, and we KNOW there is 'something' above Ao (HIS 'Boss'). However, if we just use my definition f 'god', then its a catch-all that includes all of those levels of beings


I was using gods/deities as an all-encompassing term, too. I suppose I could use powers instead, but that gets confusing when we're talking about the gods and their powers (as in abilities, magic, etc). And yes, it is "tiered". You have your demigods at the bottom, and then overgods like Ao higher up--and then his "boss" above him.

Some of course are ascended mortals, like Shevarash, Cyric, Kelemvor (the latter two obtained greater god status fairly quickly). But other deities existed before their mortal followers, because, if one thinks about it, creation and destruction are "founding principles", so to speak, that govern the universe. This gives entities (whether they are cosmic beings on the level of Ao's "boos", overgods like Ao, or greater gods like Corellon or Moradin). Because of these "creation principles", it seems logical to me that they could exist before their followers, and thus create them. It's that whole "create life" thing.

quote:
But even if he got nothing from it, he still wouldn't be dead DEAD. Gods don't 'die'. Then again, neither do mortals, really. Mortals just go somewhere else, and gods go into this comatose state in the astral (which is why I ascertain Finder had to have been getting some power still). The only permanent death that we know of (and we don't know if it would work on gods) is going into the River Styx. It literally erases all traces of you.

Some of my RW beliefs play into this - a 'spirit' (soul) never fades away completely, until the very last person has forgotten about them. I think in the case of those 'ghost legends', what happens is that the legends themselves wind up 'anchoring' the spirit in-place, so it gets 'stuck'. Just like gods (and in Asian philosophy, 'gods' are spirits - just greater ones), they depend on the thoughts of other to stick around. Isn't there a TV series out right now that plays to this theme? (American Gods)




This is true about Asian cultures. I took an interest in Shintoism (I like Japanese culture), so I studied it some. I am by no means an expert on it, but kami, often translated as god, are spirits and gods. You have your nature kami (really, kami are everywhere). There are greater kami, which are more on a "godly" level, like Amaterasu, who, for all intents and purposes, is a deity (of the sun, to be exact).

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  03:34:48  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and about Finder. If I remember correctly from the novels (I have them, but I don't want to go through them trying to find the info I need right now lol), he was banished by the Harpers, and was known as the nameless bard. Then, he is given a second chance, and kills Moander, taking his divine spark.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  03:56:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Aug 2017 03:58:17
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5654 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  15:35:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.



Oh, gotcha. I wasn't thinking about what was being said prior (which I don't subscribe to). As another example, Velsharoon and Malyk both became deities without followers initially. Same with Karsus. Same with Midnight, Cyric, and the Dark Three. There is something to becoming a deity that can be done by sheer taking or receiving of power.

Now, once someone becomes a god they either find a source of faith energy or "burn out" the energy and possibly become dead. I'm guessing becoming a deity is a two-edged blade in many ways (need faith energy to stay a god, but get too many followers and they can change you... makes you realize why the elemental lords are cold). Of course, we also have it that you can "take off" your divinity as well, since Finder does so in order to enter whatever the damn name of that city is with the Lady of Pain.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  15:49:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.


Just noting... wonder if Lolth "repurposed" the divine domain that was Moander's Offalmound to make it into the separate demonweb pits that's not in the abyss. Maybe she let Ghaunadaur and Moander take over the demonweb pits in the Abyss. Obviously, there could still be linkages between the two (as in some kind of portal) that most people don't even realize they're traversing because of how its used or something.

Lolth: Hey, Moander, I know you'll come back, so I moved all your sh*t out of your house and shoved it over there by all the slime that Ghaunadaur is wallowing in. I kinda figured you two would get along real fine. Oh, and I changed the locks.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Aug 2017 15:52:07
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  16:16:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.
There are other examples of similar events in FR/D&D...

What I think happens here is that you get that initial 'surge' of divinity - whatever the other Power has. But you aren't getting any 'new' worship-power (Elan) from his following, nor his portfolios if you didn't seize those either. Its related to what happened when Baal killed all his assassins during the ToT - he got a HUGE boost... and then NOTHING. Pretty damn stupid, IMO.

This is why most would-be gods (or already-established gods trying to 'grow bigger') grabbed the other guy's portfolios; in fact, unless you are diametrically opposed to them on some moralistic basis, its stupid not to... even just in the short-term. Of course, post-ToT, the portfolios mattered less than the faithful.

But when you do this - just grab the POWER but none of the 'perks', you tend to blow through it rather quickly (as did the Dark Three when Baal killed his assassins). It was through his own body of works (and Olive Ruskettle's 'pimpage') that he was able to maintain his tenuous hold on godhood. Had he not done that - try to establish himself on his own merits - he would have soon fallen into obscurity and would have been forgotten once again... and withered and become a comatose deity in the Astral, like all the rest. Of that, I am sure.

So I guess what I was trying to say (in an overly-complicated way LOL) is that these 'boosts' are only temporary, and if you don't use it, you lose it. And by that, I don't simply mean 'expend the power' (as did the 'Stupid Three'). More like 'invest it'. In fact, EXACTLY like that. Picture Finder being some dude in the RW who just won the lottery. He could just blow through his windfall and eventually have nothing (as most do), or he could invest it wisely and be able to 'bank on it' the rest of his life. Its just like that. He took his 'short term' divinity and leveraged it into his own religion, which was smart.

He was punished by the Harpers? REALLY? By guys like Khelben and Elminster, for having an inflated ego? A group that basically thinks its THEIR JOB to tell everyone else how to live their lives? I had forgotten about that. Pretty dumb.

Just goes to prove that in The Realms, the 'good guys' aren't really the good guys at all. They are just another power group with their own agenda. Everything is circumstantial.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 16:19:00
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  17:59:59  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.



Oh, gotcha. I wasn't thinking about what was being said prior (which I don't subscribe to). As another example, Velsharoon and Malyk both became deities without followers initially. Same with Karsus. Same with Midnight, Cyric, and the Dark Three. There is something to becoming a deity that can be done by sheer taking or receiving of power.

Now, once someone becomes a god they either find a source of faith energy or "burn out" the energy and possibly become dead. I'm guessing becoming a deity is a two-edged blade in many ways (need faith energy to stay a god, but get too many followers and they can change you... makes you realize why the elemental lords are cold). Of course, we also have it that you can "take off" your divinity as well, since Finder does so in order to enter whatever the damn name of that city is with the Lady of Pain.



Sigil?

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  18:04:54  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

[quote]

He was punished by the Harpers? REALLY? By guys like Khelben and Elminster, for having an inflated ego? A group that basically thinks its THEIR JOB to tell everyone else how to live their lives? I had forgotten about that. Pretty dumb.

Just goes to prove that in The Realms, the 'good guys' aren't really the good guys at all. They are just another power group with their own agenda. Everything is circumstantial.



If I remember correctly, Finder didn't like that his songs were being tweaked, even though they inspired others. It wasn't the level of perfection that Finder strove for (in his mind), so he created the Finder's Stone to preserve his songs. It didn't give him quite the results he wanted, so he then created a clone--Flattery--but didn't like how Flattery turned out. Flattery eventually lashed out, and one of Finder's apprentices died trying to defend his master. For his transgressions and dangerous pursuits, the Harpers imprisoned him.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  18:57:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And yet, guys like Szass Tam, Manshoon, etc, etc... walk around with Nary a care. Heck, some of the 'good guys' even buddy-around with the likes of Halaster, Larloch, and Semmenon.

Sounds more like a case of, "Lets punish the ones we can, not the ones that actually deserve it".

Elitism at its finest. There are no 'good guys' in the Realms - you just get to pick your favorite flavor of evil, is all. I actually read something last night (accidentally, in a 4e source, while looking for something completely unrelated) - guess what? The Good Guys went to Abeir. THAT isn't 'the prison planet', Toril is.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  19:01:48  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I wasn't trying to justify anyone's actions, I was just refreshing people's memories (including my own) of what happened.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  19:38:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know you weren't - I just love playing 'devils Advocate'.

I HATE the idea of 'White hat' good, and 'Black Hat' bad. Ed never meant the Realms to be B&W, and I try to convey that to people as much as possible.

And I don't REALLY think Corellon is evil (or Asmodeus LOL) - I just like to throw possibilities out there. It keeps the players guessing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2017 21:10:33
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  19:55:39  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "gray" is always interesting (though the fantasy nut in me does love the good ol' good vs evil story trope LOL). I also enjoy a good "gray" story (though not fifty shades of it .

It's like Shrek said: ogres are like onions--many layers.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  04:31:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And yet, guys like Szass Tam, Manshoon, etc, etc... walk around with Nary a care. Heck, some of the 'good guys' even buddy-around with the likes of Halaster, Larloch, and Semmenon.

Sounds more like a case of, "Lets punish the ones we can, not the ones that actually deserve it".

Elitism at its finest. There are no 'good guys' in the Realms - you just get to pick your favorite flavor of evil, is all. I actually read something last night (accidentally, in a 4e source, while looking for something completely unrelated) - guess what? The Good Guys went to Abeir. THAT isn't 'the prison planet', Toril is.



The issue was that one of the good guys caused the death of one of his apprentices -- so he was punished by his fellow good guys.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  04:35:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, gotcha. I wasn't thinking about what was being said prior (which I don't subscribe to). As another example, Velsharoon and Malyk both became deities without followers initially. Same with Karsus. Same with Midnight, Cyric, and the Dark Three. There is something to becoming a deity that can be done by sheer taking or receiving of power.


I'd not include the Dark Three, Cyric, or Midnight on that list. In all of those cases, they were stepping into the place of and assuming all of the responsibilities of a previous deity -- which included an established church. It was like being a new CEO at an existing company. Finder, Velsharoon, and Malyk were all new CEOs without companies.

Karsus is an odd case because he assumed the position of a prior deity, but didn't hold onto it for long enough to matter... He basically ran in to the existing company, shoved the CEO out of her seat, sat down, and then the deposed CEO popped back up and threw him out the window.

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  04:54:25  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Sounds more like a case of, "Lets punish the ones we can, not the ones that actually deserve it".


I remember Elminster says something like this in a text blocks in the 3e Campaign Setting. Its about why the good and mighty of Faerūn don't kill the bad guys. Short answer: Elminster admit that they can't. So, they do only "minor stuff" to no upset the status quo.

And at this point I'm really believing that there is a spell or some magic at work to maintain the status quo in the Realms... even the Spellplague is considered "a plague of change".

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Aug 2017 04:55:48
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