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Lhynard
Seeker

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2020 :  22:20:42  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There seems to be a lore conflict in Empires of the Shining Sea regarding who rules the city of Schamedar in 1370 DR.

After the Living Gem War ends in 1368, the syl-pasha is said to have established the victorious Seven Satraps as the rulers, and p. 39 gives three of their names and claims that they serve El Kahmir. The text claims that they "now" rule in 1370 DR.

However, the section actually detailing Schamedar on p. 116 claims that the Syl-Vizar in 1370 DR is an elf named Vatarn Wahrim and that he was chosen by the people a few tendays after the Council of Vizars disappeared. He selects a new Council, and the name of one additional Council member is given.

The original council disappeared as a result of Shond Tharovin in 1367. The only way that I can reconcile this conflict is if I ignore the "now" on p. 39 and assume that the disappeared Council in the Schamedar description on p. 116 refers not to those killed or exiled by Shond but rather to the Seven Satraps.

In other words, did Schend intend for the first Council to be removed by Shond in 1367, to be replaced by the Seven Satraps in 1368, and then to be replaced in 1370 again by a new council? Or was this a mistake on his part in forgetting who he claimed was in charge between the two sections of the book?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5835 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2020 :  13:04:38  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I think the "now" is the problem here. Clearly the Seven Satraps rule from 1368 DR but disappear (for whatever reason) in 1370 DR allowing Vatarn to take control. At least that's how I would read it to mean.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Lhynard
Seeker

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2020 :  01:24:25  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Yes, I think the "now" is the problem here. Clearly the Seven Satraps rule from 1368 DR but disappear (for whatever reason) in 1370 DR allowing Vatarn to take control. At least that's how I would read it to mean.

-- George Krashos



thanks for the reply!
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Lhynard
Seeker

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  20:58:22  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yet another family tree question for Schend (likely to be answered by Krashos ).

I built this detailed family tree of Clan Ithal of Tethyr today:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ithal

My question is about one missing queen.

Page 24 of the "Erlkazar & Folk of Intrigue" booklet from the Lands of Intrigue boxed set states that the lich Priamon has the "1,530-year-old bridal crown of Queen Arial of the Ithal Dynasty." The boxed set is set in 1370 DR, so this means that the crown was from around −160. This means that it was made during the reign of King Silvam. However, Silvam's queen was Alcina. This means that it must have been the bridal crown of one of the following kings. (Perhaps it was one of Alcina's crowns given to the new queen as a gift?)

In any case, whose bride was Arial? It would have to be Nishan or Garynor, because Garynor II never reigned, and Nishan II married Arhymeria, and then the dynasty fell.

Edited by - Lhynard on 09 May 2020 21:00:18
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1638 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2020 :  20:32:00  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Not sure if Steven still checks in but I'll leave this question here because I'm pretty sure it is related to his work on Blackstaff Tower.

When the Spellplague merged Nameless and Raergar into Nameless Haunt where was the location that this happened? All I seem to find is that it was on the east side of Mount Waterdeep and that it left a cat head shaped mark on the cobbles there. I'm guessing it would likely be "near" Blackstaff Tower. Using the old Waterdeep City of Splendors Map from TSR1109 I can see there aren't that many cobbled location near the Mount Waterdeep. Maybe Fetlock Court or Turnback Court?

Well if anyone can answer would be great, thinking of using the location as part of a quest.



That was meant to put a new landmark/place of interest somewhere on the expanded and changed Mount Waterdeep that had a whole other neighborhood up thereabouts. I've never gotten around to checking 4E sources (or 5E sources for that matter) as to where and how they shifted things when they messed up the City.

In any case, placing it around/near Turnback Court works well, ayup.

Steven the very late

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1638 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2020 :  20:38:42  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lhynard

Yet another family tree question for Schend (likely to be answered by Krashos ).

I built this detailed family tree of Clan Ithal of Tethyr today:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ithal

My question is about one missing queen.

Page 24 of the "Erlkazar & Folk of Intrigue" booklet from the Lands of Intrigue boxed set states that the lich Priamon has the "1,530-year-old bridal crown of Queen Arial of the Ithal Dynasty." The boxed set is set in 1370 DR, so this means that the crown was from around #8722;160. This means that it was made during the reign of King Silvam. However, Silvam's queen was Alcina. This means that it must have been the bridal crown of one of the following kings. (Perhaps it was one of Alcina's crowns given to the new queen as a gift?)

In any case, whose bride was Arial? It would have to be Nishan or Garynor, because Garynor II never reigned, and Nishan II married Arhymeria, and then the dynasty fell.



Unless George found another timeline snafu, I'd say that Arial was Nishan's bride and mother to twins Garynor and Rhynda. It would have easily been forged/crafted during Silvam's reign as Arial and Nishan married before ascending to the throne (and the crown is only referred to as Queen Arial's crown because of her most famous title/role).

Steven

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4422 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2020 :  21:38:40  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This sounds like sense. A bridal crown certainly could be given before becoming Queen. It is hard to be born a Queen after all. Most cases one inherits from someone living at the time after they are born. Sometimes years or decades pass before an heir becomes ruler (or even titled).
There could be examples of being born King or Queen though. Depending on treaties and laws of realms.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5835 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2020 :  01:17:46  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by Lhynard

Yet another family tree question for Schend (likely to be answered by Krashos ).

I built this detailed family tree of Clan Ithal of Tethyr today:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ithal

My question is about one missing queen.

Page 24 of the "Erlkazar & Folk of Intrigue" booklet from the Lands of Intrigue boxed set states that the lich Priamon has the "1,530-year-old bridal crown of Queen Arial of the Ithal Dynasty." The boxed set is set in 1370 DR, so this means that the crown was from around #8722;160. This means that it was made during the reign of King Silvam. However, Silvam's queen was Alcina. This means that it must have been the bridal crown of one of the following kings. (Perhaps it was one of Alcina's crowns given to the new queen as a gift?)

In any case, whose bride was Arial? It would have to be Nishan or Garynor, because Garynor II never reigned, and Nishan II married Arhymeria, and then the dynasty fell.



Unless George found another timeline snafu, I'd say that Arial was Nishan's bride and mother to twins Garynor and Rhynda. It would have easily been forged/crafted during Silvam's reign as Arial and Nishan married before ascending to the throne (and the crown is only referred to as Queen Arial's crown because of her most famous title/role).

Steven



Ahh Steven, you've still got it. Your Clan Ithal notes confirm that she was indeed Nishan's bride and originally from Clan Fyrson. As always, I bow to your superior Realms-fu.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Lhynard
Seeker

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2020 :  02:11:08  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by Lhynard

Yet another family tree question for Schend (likely to be answered by Krashos ).

I built this detailed family tree of Clan Ithal of Tethyr today:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ithal

My question is about one missing queen.

Page 24 of the "Erlkazar & Folk of Intrigue" booklet from the Lands of Intrigue boxed set states that the lich Priamon has the "1,530-year-old bridal crown of Queen Arial of the Ithal Dynasty." The boxed set is set in 1370 DR, so this means that the crown was from around #8722;160. This means that it was made during the reign of King Silvam. However, Silvam's queen was Alcina. This means that it must have been the bridal crown of one of the following kings. (Perhaps it was one of Alcina's crowns given to the new queen as a gift?)

In any case, whose bride was Arial? It would have to be Nishan or Garynor, because Garynor II never reigned, and Nishan II married Arhymeria, and then the dynasty fell.



Unless George found another timeline snafu, I'd say that Arial was Nishan's bride and mother to twins Garynor and Rhynda. It would have easily been forged/crafted during Silvam's reign as Arial and Nishan married before ascending to the throne (and the crown is only referred to as Queen Arial's crown because of her most famous title/role).

Steven



Ahh Steven, you've still got it. Your Clan Ithal notes confirm that she was indeed Nishan's bride and originally from Clan Fyrson. As always, I bow to your superior Realms-fu.

-- George Krashos



Thanks, both! I am super excited that my guesses were correct. And you also gave me an extra bonus by giving me her clan. I am writing what wiki articles I can for all of those too.

I'm sure I'll have lots more questions as I continue to try to milk out all the details of the First Age of Tethyr as I can. It is so sad that all of this information did not make it into the sourcebooks.
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