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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2017 :  19:37:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just did a comparison of the map in ToA with Mike Schley's Sword Coast map. My own continental reference map has incorporated Mike's SC map, so the scales match-up precisely. When I pasted the Chult map into it, I found a discrepancy.

Using the same scale he use in his SC map, it should be closer to 11 miles per hex, not 10. So, for those of you who are sticklers for accuracy (as I am), you may want to incorporate that slight change. It really shouldn't make any difference to the campaign at all. (I just don't like Chult getting any smaller than it already is - its already way smaller than any other settings 'Africa-like' region).

Of course, we should probably include the entirety of the Shining South as our 'Africa', since The Shaar is our Savanna. I also liken Calimshan to Morroco, so the Calimshan-Lake of Steam region is like North Africa/Berbers, and then we have Mulhorand being Egypt, so yeah, I guess maybe our Africa is pretty damn big when I look at it that way.

EDIT:
And for anyone interested in why I was playing with the Chult map - when I was working on my Misbegotten Realms I had incorporated the Razor Coast (Frog God Games) region onto Chult's east coast, and it was an excellent fit. Its an excellent product, and it really 'spruced up' and otherwise boring piece of the Realms. Unfortunately, when I tried to do that again (not as part of any 'canon' project I am working on - just for Shiggles) I found that its a bit too big if I try to keep the scales the same (which I always strive for, so that the maps that come with individual products are still accurate). Thus, I have decided to push that off to the side, as a possibility for the 'right coast' of Laerakond, if and when I ever do that Abeir-near-Chult map I've been toying with on a far back burner.

quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity

Decided to respond with humor.

http://breadthofpopsanity.blogspot.ca/2017/10/please-find-dragonbait.html

enjoy. :)
So did Dragonbait EAT Alias? Was that your point?

Not that I'm faulting his taste, mind you....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2017 19:58:11
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2017 :  21:36:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does any part of this adventure touch upon Samarach? A good chunk of it is on the map, but I don't see any locales there (which is actually kind of odd - there should be at least two settlements on the map there). Was Samarach destroyed during the Spellplague years? (4e)

I don't see how that is possible, since the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign Storm of Zehir took place there. Just having 'Zehir' in the title means its post-Spellplague.

I was actually hoping it got blowded up (:P), because it would make a great spot for me to shoe-horn in Skelkor.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
854 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  01:29:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The kingdom of Samarach was drowned, that is why there aren't relevant settlements in the area. But most of the land remained. As for Samarach, it doesn't have a role in the adventure.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  17:06:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So kingdoms that went completely underwater (or got whisked away to 'somewhere else', which seemed to happen A LOT) are back, but a country that apparently had no ill (geographic) effects visited upon it was 'completely destroyed'. I don't even see how it could have been 'drowned' since ALL the land is still there, unless there was a tidal wave that washed a hundred miles inland.

Sometimes I think FR logic would drive a Vulcan into a savage rage.

I'm just gonna put the settlements back. We can say that Samarach went to the Domains of Dread, but Ravenloft found the place so boring it sent it back ASAP. After all, I just found out Mezro's been hiding in a pocket dimension this whole time.

Which brings me to the whole reason why I am posting right now - the lore about Mezro in the Wiki comes from the ToA AP, and it says that the city left behind 'FAKE ruins' to fool people (seems every place in FR did that... but lets not call it a 'retcon', eh?). Then the entry goes on to say that, "members of the Flaming Fist looted most of the ruins and began to use them as training grounds for their forces in Chult".

They looted 'fake' ruins?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2017 19:42:23
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3602 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  17:19:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fake ruins. Fake loot. Fake setting.

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
854 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  17:22:25  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, that is what the AP says. Better still, the Flaming guys are so protective of their "ruins", they even hand't realized they got fake stuff, but will not allow you to steal their fake stuff.

If you need the actual text from the adventure:

quote:
By all accounts, Mezro was destroyed by the Spellplague, and its ruins indicate as much. In truth, the city's immortal defenders -the barae- used their god-given magic to transport the entire city to a paradise (a magically constructed demiplane, far from prying eyes). Empty ruins were left behind to create the impression that Mezro had been destroyed.

The ruins have been thoroughly ransacked by the Flaming Fist in the name of Baldur's Gate, and Flaming Fist patrols still visit the site regularly -partly as training for new recruits, partly to make sure nothing was missed. Neither treasure nor clues remain for the player characters to find here.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Dec 2017 17:35:59
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  19:23:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Fake ruins. Fake loot. Fake setting.



Just once, I'd like to see if you could pass up the opportunity to randomly bash the setting. Just once.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  19:24:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Yeah, that is what the AP says. Better still, the Flaming guys are so protective of their "ruins", they even hand't realized they got fake stuff, but will not allow you to steal their fake stuff.

If you need the actual text from the adventure:

quote:
By all accounts, Mezro was destroyed by the Spellplague, and its ruins indicate as much. In truth, the city's immortal defenders -the barae- used their god-given magic to transport the entire city to a paradise (a magically constructed demiplane, far from prying eyes). Empty ruins were left behind to create the impression that Mezro had been destroyed.

The ruins have been thoroughly ransacked by the Flaming Fist in the name of Baldur's Gate, and Flaming Fist patrols still visit the site regularly -partly as training for new recruits, partly to make sure nothing was missed. Neither treasure nor clues remain for the player characters to find here.




If they left behind ruins, it seems to me that the city was "copied" elsewhere, and thus the ruins would be legitimate ruins. At least, that's how I'd spin it, because otherwise you've got a whole lot of people somehow oblivious to having fake loot in a fake city.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  19:39:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Yeah, that is what the AP says. Better still, the Flaming guys are so protective of their "ruins", they even hand't realized they got fake stuff, but will not allow you to steal their fake stuff.

If you need the actual text from the adventure:

quote:
By all accounts, Mezro was destroyed by the Spellplague, and its ruins indicate as much. In truth, the city's immortal defenders -the barae- used their god-given magic to transport the entire city to a paradise (a magically constructed demiplane, far from prying eyes). Empty ruins were left behind to create the impression that Mezro had been destroyed.

The ruins have been thoroughly ransacked by the Flaming Fist in the name of Baldur's Gate, and Flaming Fist patrols still visit the site regularly -partly as training for new recruits, partly to make sure nothing was missed. Neither treasure nor clues remain for the player characters to find here.

So, like... whats the whole point of even saving Mezro in 5e, if it can't be 'accessed'?

They should have at least put something in there that the 'treasure' removed from Mezro reverts to just leaves and other natural debris, and the Flaming Fist have just been too obstinate (stupid?) to figure it out - they seem to think there is some sort of curse or something that keeps replacing their 'real' treasure with junk. Now they are scared to remove anymore, and thats why they are all paranoid about guarding the ruins. At least it would have made the whole thing amusing, if nothing else.

I actually got banned from the WotC because of this topic. After they destroyed Mezro and said the Chultan tribes "had reverted back to barbarism" (that was OFFICIAL at the time), I made the comment, "So they took an advanced culture of BLACK people and turned them all into savage spear-chuckers?"

The reason they gave for my banning is that I had made a 'racist comment'... while point out THEIR racism. LMAO

I guess they took it to heart, and didn't want to get called out again, so they 'saved it'. Of course, they still didn't bring it back into the Realms. Heaven forbid those Dar... errrr... Chultans get too close to our good neighborhoods.

And, of course, at the same time, they did away with ALL the powerful female characters in the Realms. Agenda, much? Sorry Wooly, but today I'm leaning toward's Dazzler. So much of this half-arsed "not a retcon" retcon. Its annoying as hell. I didn't know about Mezro's 'return' until today, and this whole "it didn't get destroyed but we aren't letting it back in" thing really sticks in my craw.

On the other hand, I managed to repurpose the Samarach Tomfoolery into something palatable.
And weirdly, I think its going to be the 'Maztica Alive!' people who are going to cry the loudest - I just did away with any need whatsoever with Maztica proper. Why go to Maztica, when neo-Maztica is right around the corner?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2017 02:21:50
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3602 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  19:41:37  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Fake ruins. Fake loot. Fake setting.



Just once, I'd like to see if you could pass up the opportunity to randomly bash the setting. Just once.




Forgotten Realms is the best roleplaying setting i have ever read about, DM'd, or played in. I sincerely mean that.

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
854 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  20:02:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If they left behind ruins, it seems to me that the city was "copied" elsewhere, and thus the ruins would be legitimate ruins. At least, that's how I'd spin it, because otherwise you've got a whole lot of people somehow oblivious to having fake loot in a fake city.



The adventure isn't clear about this. In fact, Mezro only got a paragraph, half of it what I've writen here. So, there is not much to work with.

But, if I got to DM this adventure, I will do something like you suggest. Otherwise, the treasure hunters and the Flaming Fist guys will look too way stupid...


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So, like... whats the whole point of even saving Mezro in 5e, if it can't be 'accessed'?


I was asking myself the same.

Although, there is the wife of Artus, and this naga NPC. Both say that while Ras Nsi is alive, Mezro will never return to Toril, so, it seems that sending Mezro to a demiplane was done not only to save the city from the Spellplague, but also from Ras Nsi. And this gives a way for DMs who want to "retrieve" Mezro to do it, provide their adventurers can kill old Ras.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  20:10:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Sorry Wooly, but today I'm leaning toward's Dazzler. So much of this half-arsed "not a retcon" retcon. Its annoying as hell. I didn't know about Mezro's 'return' until today, and this whole "it didn't get destroyed but we aren't letting it back in" thing really sticks in my craw.



Hey, I'll be the first to agree that WotC has done some really questionable stuff, and while I can understand their reasoning, I wish they'd done a grand reset rather than retconning the retcons.

My issue was not with Dazz's opinion. My issue was that I'm sick of seeing his random negativity expressed at every conceivable opportunity. It's like when we had the Edition Wars going on, and people went out of their way looking for chances to say how much they hated the thing being discussed. It got painfully old a few years ago, and it's no less annoying now.

I've actually been avoiding some discussions, just because of his rampant and unceasing negativity. And I've been asking for a while -- obviously in vain -- for it to be toned down.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  20:18:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Fake ruins. Fake loot. Fake setting.



Just once, I'd like to see if you could pass up the opportunity to randomly bash the setting. Just once.




Forgotten Realms is the best roleplaying setting i have ever read about, DM'd, or played in. I sincerely mean that.



Truly, I'm glad to see you say that... I just wish you didn't indicate otherwise so much. Given your continuous negativity, your blind hatred of its gods, and your desire to re-write everything, one could easily assume you strongly dislike just about every aspect of the setting.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
473 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2017 :  01:56:54  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Artus-Mezro story line is being played out (in some fashion) in the DM's Guild Adept program adventures Ruins of Mezro, Heart of the Wild, Risen Mists, and one more not yet released. Without seeing where the last storyline goes, it's hard to say what exactly will happen, but so far it looks solid.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
854 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2017 :  02:29:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are those storylines canon?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2017 :  02:37:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if they bring it back (via an AP), then I'll be a LOT less annoyed by this weird "its back, but its not" scenario.

I should probably look into that. My 15 year old is now playing D&D with his own group of friends, and he tells me they are 'having trouble' (the DMs not so good - the kid never even played, so ho can he run a game? And they don't know the rules, at all), and he wants me to 'help out' (and by that he wants me to take over the group... but I'm not sure I should). I've been going through some of the old Paizo AP's (back when they were still doing Dragon FOR WotC), and both the Savage Tide and Shackled City AP's are perfect for Chult (there are even conversion notes precisely for that by Eric Boyd), and the two are semi-connected already to each other (The City of Cauldron is just south of Sesserine on their maps). And, of course, we have this ToA AP as well. I believe Ed is also working on something nearby (the other end of the Chultan 'arm', in Sheirtalar). So it sounds like 'dinosaurs & pirates' in a jungle might be just the thing for a group adolescents.

I'm working on amalgam map combining elements from all of these... plus I shoe-horned Returned Abeir into the region. Its getting very crowded.

Plus, Tasloi are one of my favorite, non-OP monsters, and I never, ever get to use them. Screw Batiri, MY Chult is going Tasloi.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2017 02:42:09
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
473 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2017 :  17:52:35  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hard to say if they are canon or not. I'd say sorta. They are somewhere between WotC product, Adventurer's League (which is generally canon), and something else. That said, the reality is that based on the probably lack of future development, they are probably as canon as its going to get.
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