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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  08:42:31  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well aside from having never been actually finished by Tolkien and instead released by his son...

The only story there is the legend of Beren and Luthien where both characters were figures of nobility. The other characters are essentially beyond this with Feanor being as much villain as hero, Morgoth himself serving as an inverted Lucifer of Paradise Lost with his stealing of the Simarils, the punishment of the Numenoreans is handled in a fashion that's utterly depersonalized, while the opening bits of the story are merely following the deeds of Archangels whom are hardly qualifiable in the terms of nobility at all. One of my favorite stories actually follows the tale of the commoner elf kidnapping one of the Prince's relatives to wed.

While the Beren and Luthien legend is certainly "the bestest of the perfectest of the two races wedding" its hardly something that is that noteworthy in the annals of Professor Tolkien's literary contributions.

And as I hope you can see, I'm quite familiar with the work.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Apr 2006 08:43:28
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  09:51:25  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Romance has hardly ever been treated properly. As Elaine said, us writers should do some research in that area if we want to include it. (I think I order some of the books of the writer Elaine suggested... this is so rich, it's gonna freak the statistics guys at Amazon!!!)

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1772 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  14:44:24  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Winterfox: I don't mind stories that worry about The Rightful Heir to the Throne, since, as we know from real-world history, that has often been a question of importance and a source of conflict in dynastic politics. But the older I get and more fiction I experience, the more intolerant I become of The Chosen One, selected by God, Fate, prophecy or what have you to punch the bad guy's ticket and bring peace of the land. I much prefer protagonists who make their choices and go on the hero's journey without the hand of Destiny goosing them along their way. Their stories seem more suspenseful and their victories more meaningful.
I don't know that all, or even the majority, of warriors in fantasy should be all scarred and uglied up. In my judgment, this isn't true of modern soldiers, martial artists, boxers, or extreme figthers. If we're looking a fantasy where combat and medicine are presented kinda sorta as they really were in the Middle Ages, it's quite possible that when a nice-looking warrior takes a serious wound, he doesn't bounce back tough as ever only now looking nasty. It kills him and that's that.
Conversely, if you're dealing with a world like the Realms, where healing magic is arguably more effective than modern medicine, if the wounded warrior is the beneficiary of it, why would he necessarily wind up with a scar?
I do agree with you that a writer who depicts a wee slip of a girl wielding, say, a greatsword in plate armor is pushing the bounds of believability pretty hard. But small, slim people can be effective combatants. Just, probably, not in that way. Make this character a lightly armored skirmisher or put her in the light cavalry and she may acquit herself well.
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  15:31:34  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

{snip stuff about the Silm}


Oh, but remember, all the people doing big stuff were descended from OMG HIGH!11! lineage. Feanor was the greatest inventor ever -- he made the silmarils. Of the Noldor he is the greatest in mind and body, seconded by Galadriel. Funnily enough, both he and Galadriel are royal/noble-born. That these characters made screw-ups isn't that relevant: the Silm almost exclusively features people of high lineage. So of course it would be them who screw up -- there're few, if any, characters of common stock to do anything at all. And who goes to the Valar to seek aid against Morgoth? Earendil. And who does he descend from? The High King of Noldor.

So, name me a common-born character in the Silm who has a role of some importance at all.

Coming back to LOTR, I'd note that Frodo, Merry and Pippin are as close to aristocrats as you can get among hobbits. At the very least, they're more well-to-do than anyone else. The only one real "peasant" is Samwise, who's a servant and a gardener. The rest of the Fellowship consists of... you guess it, nobility. Even Gimli is related to some dwarven lord or another, and Legolas is Thranduil's son. A big deal is made of the "a king has a healing hand blah blah" thing, to the point that athelas is called kingsfoil. Not coincidentally, it's the herb used to heal wounds inflicted by a Nazgul's weapon. Shall I do a search-inside-the-book and see how many times the word "kingly" comes up? I do believe it's described that Aragorn has kingliness shining out of his freaking eyes (which must be radioactive!). I'm not sure where you get the "parody" thing from, since in the end Aragorn is recognized as king, gets the girl (because he is king), and makes a happily-ever-after for all of Middle-earth.

quote:
the punishment of the Numenoreans is handled in a fashion that's utterly depersonalized


I'd say that almost everything in Tolkien's fiction is depersonalized, period.

quote:
while the opening bits of the story are merely following the deeds of Archangels whom are hardly qualifiable in the terms of nobility at all.


Uhm, duh? Of course they wouldn't "qualify" as such -- they aren't mortal. Even then, Manwe and Elbereth are later called king and queen of the Valar respectively.

quote:
One of my favorite stories actually follows the tale of the commoner elf kidnapping one of the Prince's relatives to wed.


Do you mean Eol the Dark? If so, he was originally a member of a royal house. Related to Thingol, too. Yeah, that's real common. (Besides which, he enchanted Aredhel into marrying him. In an earlier draft, the hints that he raped her were even stronger.)

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

Winterfox: I don't mind stories that worry about The Rightful Heir to the Throne, since, as we know from real-world history, that has often been a question of importance and a source of conflict in dynastic politics.


What annoys me about fantasy royalty is that, most of the time, their royalness magically makes everything all right. They automatically know how to rule, even if they've been raised in a farm; their presence makes magic work, the crops grow, the sun rise. And everybody automatically spots their royalness and bows to them. People that don't are mean bullies or on the bad guy's side.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  16:57:05  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Royals and Romance, the stuff I see a lot of women read when I wait at any doctor's... and here I thought fantasy was all about testosterone... boy was I wrong *irony off*

A story is good when a story is good, like I care about the genre

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30342 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  19:57:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We've strayed away from the original topic, folks...

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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
39 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  23:40:25  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Considering it's been over 10 years since this thread has last seen action, have the Realms come out with any novels since then that do a good job of relating to the subject? I get it's not really common in the Realms, but I'd be interested in finding a new FR series where there's some decent romance/relationships.

Thanks

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 10 Sep 2017 23:47:04
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
793 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  00:33:53  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Brimstone Angels series is the first one I can remind right now.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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BenN
Learned Scribe

Japan
340 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  09:32:35  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the Galaeron-Vala-Takari triangle in Return of the Archwizards series, and the Araevin-Ilsevele-Fflar triangle in The Last Mythal series, were pretty interesting & well-done.
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
39 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  02:38:52  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the responses, I'll consider the two series recommended. I've actually read the first book of The Last Mythal, so I'll have to watch for this triangle you speak of when resuming that series.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 12 Sep 2017 02:39:57
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
139 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  07:40:32  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage  Send Adhriva an AOL message  Send Adhriva a Yahoo! Message Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How did you ever convince Mystra to let you cast Resurrect Scroll at this level? O.o I'm glad you did or I would never have seen it.

I too enjoy Ilsevele's love arch because it's well structured. Not enough time was spent on it but that's due to the pace of the story and the fact that her love story is secondary to the unfolding events (as opposed to someone else's). I especially like the final scenes of it because I always felt Fflar was her gateway when it came to learning how to love Cormanthyr. Sieveril's words to her at the Battle of Myth Drannor doubled as her road map to restoring Myth Drannor (Drannor comes from the unlikely love story of an elf and a dwarf no less) which I thought was brilliant on Rich's part. One step at a time, and Fflar wonderfully represents the people of Cormanthyr as a whole. I also enjoyed it because Ilsevele strikes me as one of the few potential demi-romantic/sexual oriented characters in literature.

DOWNSHADOW by Erik Scott de Bie has a wonderful romance plot in it's story structure, one I think you should check out if you're looking for good Realm romances. I think where most romance plots go wrong in general is that the characters either are not a part of the over arching thematic structure or their romantic interaction doesn't further the story's theme. You see in most stories, there is only ever 1 [meta] character - each player on stage we see in the story are different facets of the theme and character represented as they collide in meaningful ways. Often, the love interest is also the main opponent (the one who challenges the hero the most and also is the most deeply connected to who the hero is). To quote a chosen of Besheba: "Love is the sharpest sword of all", and for good reason. In DOWNSHADOW, let us say we have two competing love interests for our protagonist: Fayne and Myrin. Fayne represents our hero's inner darkness. The desire for vengeance, the masks he wears, the lies he tells - she is the embodiment of his inner most self that is all but numb to him despite wishing otherwise. This, of course, is contrasted with Myrin, whose innocent naivety is powerful and dangerous to herself and others. She represents his dreams, his idealism, his own wishful beliefs about himself and the way the world should be. The driving story structure comes down to what does our protagonist desire more? What does he cling to and crave here? It's a subplot told through the framework of romance, very similar to any interaction you'd find in mythology where the characters represent different parts of nature or ourselves. If you have a character that is more interested in confronting what he desires most head on, you're going to have that scene play out through conflict instead of romance, friendship, or any other framework. No story simply follows the hero around until the problem is solved - although great characterization will make you forget that all stories are staged - it's the structure of the story that propels it all forward. DOWNSHADOW, despite not typically being billed as a romance novel amongst fans, follows this philosophy extremely well in the way it utilizes romance between its cast of characters. It's well worth checking out.

Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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Edited by - Adhriva on 12 Sep 2017 07:53:18
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
39 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2017 :  23:51:55  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

How did you ever convince Mystra to let you cast Resurrect Scroll at this level? O.o I'm glad you did or I would never have seen it.


LOL, not sure if that means what I think it does

Thanks for the information, I will add Downshadow to my list.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  14:52:10  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

How did you ever convince Mystra to let you cast Resurrect Scroll at this level? O.o I'm glad you did or I would never have seen it.

I too enjoy Ilsevele's love arch because it's well structured. Not enough time was spent on it but that's due to the pace of the story and the fact that her love story is secondary to the unfolding events (as opposed to someone else's). I especially like the final scenes of it because I always felt Fflar was her gateway when it came to learning how to love Cormanthyr. Sieveril's words to her at the Battle of Myth Drannor doubled as her road map to restoring Myth Drannor (Drannor comes from the unlikely love story of an elf and a dwarf no less) which I thought was brilliant on Rich's part. One step at a time, and Fflar wonderfully represents the people of Cormanthyr as a whole. I also enjoyed it because Ilsevele strikes me as one of the few potential demi-romantic/sexual oriented characters in literature.

DOWNSHADOW by Erik Scott de Bie has a wonderful romance plot in it's story structure, one I think you should check out if you're looking for good Realm romances. I think where most romance plots go wrong in general is that the characters either are not a part of the over arching thematic structure or their romantic interaction doesn't further the story's theme. You see in most stories, there is only ever 1 [meta] character - each player on stage we see in the story are different facets of the theme and character represented as they collide in meaningful ways. Often, the love interest is also the main opponent (the one who challenges the hero the most and also is the most deeply connected to who the hero is). To quote a chosen of Besheba: "Love is the sharpest sword of all", and for good reason. In DOWNSHADOW, let us say we have two competing love interests for our protagonist: Fayne and Myrin. Fayne represents our hero's inner darkness. The desire for vengeance, the masks he wears, the lies he tells - she is the embodiment of his inner most self that is all but numb to him despite wishing otherwise. This, of course, is contrasted with Myrin, whose innocent naivety is powerful and dangerous to herself and others. She represents his dreams, his idealism, his own wishful beliefs about himself and the way the world should be. The driving story structure comes down to what does our protagonist desire more? What does he cling to and crave here? It's a subplot told through the framework of romance, very similar to any interaction you'd find in mythology where the characters represent different parts of nature or ourselves. If you have a character that is more interested in confronting what he desires most head on, you're going to have that scene play out through conflict instead of romance, friendship, or any other framework. No story simply follows the hero around until the problem is solved - although great characterization will make you forget that all stories are staged - it's the structure of the story that propels it all forward. DOWNSHADOW, despite not typically being billed as a romance novel amongst fans, follows this philosophy extremely well in the way it utilizes romance between its cast of characters. It's well worth checking out.




I think there is well done "romance" or relationships in every thing Erik Scott de Bie has done in the realms.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 18 Sep 2017 14:53:32
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  23:07:28  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

How did you ever convince Mystra to let you cast Resurrect Scroll at this level? O.o I'm glad you did or I would never have seen it.

I too enjoy Ilsevele's love arch because it's well structured. Not enough time was spent on it but that's due to the pace of the story and the fact that her love story is secondary to the unfolding events (as opposed to someone else's). I especially like the final scenes of it because I always felt Fflar was her gateway when it came to learning how to love Cormanthyr. Sieveril's words to her at the Battle of Myth Drannor doubled as her road map to restoring Myth Drannor (Drannor comes from the unlikely love story of an elf and a dwarf no less) which I thought was brilliant on Rich's part. One step at a time, and Fflar wonderfully represents the people of Cormanthyr as a whole. I also enjoyed it because Ilsevele strikes me as one of the few potential demi-romantic/sexual oriented characters in literature.

DOWNSHADOW by Erik Scott de Bie has a wonderful romance plot in it's story structure, one I think you should check out if you're looking for good Realm romances. I think where most romance plots go wrong in general is that the characters either are not a part of the over arching thematic structure or their romantic interaction doesn't further the story's theme. You see in most stories, there is only ever 1 [meta] character - each player on stage we see in the story are different facets of the theme and character represented as they collide in meaningful ways. Often, the love interest is also the main opponent (the one who challenges the hero the most and also is the most deeply connected to who the hero is). To quote a chosen of Besheba: "Love is the sharpest sword of all", and for good reason. In DOWNSHADOW, let us say we have two competing love interests for our protagonist: Fayne and Myrin. Fayne represents our hero's inner darkness. The desire for vengeance, the masks he wears, the lies he tells - she is the embodiment of his inner most self that is all but numb to him despite wishing otherwise. This, of course, is contrasted with Myrin, whose innocent naivety is powerful and dangerous to herself and others. She represents his dreams, his idealism, his own wishful beliefs about himself and the way the world should be. The driving story structure comes down to what does our protagonist desire more? What does he cling to and crave here? It's a subplot told through the framework of romance, very similar to any interaction you'd find in mythology where the characters represent different parts of nature or ourselves. If you have a character that is more interested in confronting what he desires most head on, you're going to have that scene play out through conflict instead of romance, friendship, or any other framework. No story simply follows the hero around until the problem is solved - although great characterization will make you forget that all stories are staged - it's the structure of the story that propels it all forward. DOWNSHADOW, despite not typically being billed as a romance novel amongst fans, follows this philosophy extremely well in the way it utilizes romance between its cast of characters. It's well worth checking out.



I had a hard time getting into Erik's books.

But that is possibly because he could be a bit belittling and insulting to posters on these forums when we spoke of our thinking the spellplague was a mistake and might kill the realms off. I did not even know he was an author until he started inserting that factoid into every other post while chiding us.

In the end, we were right about the Spellplague. It started a downward spiral from which the realms could not recover.

Nevertheless, I gave Depths of Madness a twirl. Didn't do it for me. I heard the Shadowbane books were better but never got around to trying them

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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
794 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2017 :  18:37:43  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Giogi and Cat; love those two and their subsequent cameos.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2017 :  01:47:42  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasn't here for the "first life" of this thread, but I'll contribute now.

I think the majority of the Realms have some form of romance going on, but some are more prominent than others. I won't spoil anything, but Last Mythal is great, and I enjoyed the romance. Oh, speaking of which, Blades of the Moonsea, also by Baker, is a very loose follow-up to LM, and that has a nice romance, too. It is also a good story. It is 4E era, but worth the read. I also recommend reading Anthology of the Elves after LM. The last story in there takes place during the events in LM, and the main character is featured in Blades of the Moonsea.

As for new stuff, I would agree that Brimstone Angels and Shadowbane feature romance more prominently in their stories, but they don't detract from the plot and action. They're well done, IMO. I would say the more recent Drizzt books deal a bit more with relationships, too.

Sweet water and light laughter
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