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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2015 :  16:31:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had - a long time ago - proposed two distinct, advanced (for their time) peoples in the North of Toril, one located in The North (Western Heartlands) and the other in the northern fringes of the Hordelands, around Yal Tengri. Ed had even said that The Great Ice Sea does indeed connect to the Sea of Floating Ice (around Icewind Dale), and works much like the Northwest passage did/does on Earth. These two groups would have been Torillian versions of The Norse and the Fins, and would have interacted up in those far northern waters (which have been frozen-over and melted several times over the course of milenia, sometimes for centuries at a time).

I still kept a piece of that in my Toril-Fins, and they were the group the ethnicity Raumvari (Lake of Steam/Raumathar, Rashemen, aboriginal Thayan, Nar, Sossal, etc) developed from, after they themselves were pushed south from the western fringes of the Ama basin (where the evil kingdom of Pohjola arose). This part has gone beyond theory and conjecture deep into the 'homebrew' zone.

I had to drop my line of thought for the Toril-Norse, however, because they were NOT native to that region - they actually came from the south! They worked their way up the coast and settled the islands and Sword Coast North (mixing with the native peoples, who may or may not been our Mir/Gur people). I had asked Ed where they came from, discerning no logical source (that very large island down near Katashaka?), and he hinted that they may not even be native to Toril, which would indicate a very large and once-highly active portal somewhere south of the Swordcoast - perhaps he had thought to connect them to whatever continent he had envisioned 'to the west' (Anchoromé was an island chain in Ed's Realms), and the published Realms made their origin odd (because we got Maztica and that large northern landmass instead). Hell, for all we know, thats what native Katashakans might look like (southern Katashaka does come fairly close to the southern pole, so it would have a similar climate to Xendrik - steamy jungles and savannas to the north, and frigid regions along the south).

However, if we go with the idea that they are not Toril natives, then they may very well be actual Vikings... although I see very little cultural resemblance aside from some cosmetic issues. It would explain the presence of Tyr... but what of the other Norse gods? (unless my theory about Annam being Odin 'the all-father' is correct, but then we have the Norse pantheon arriving at the wrong time... or do we?) Placing the Twilight Giants story further along Toril's timeline (as I've wanted to do for some time) would prove useful here. (I had much more here, but realized I had crossed into yet-another set of theories)).

Not sure what to do with them; Ed would know, but he's not telling. I wouldn't mind saying ALL 'Norse' (RW and Torillian) actually came from yet-another 'Viking World' (Midgard?), but I've used a similar device to explain the vast number of similarities between (*cough* Derivative *cough*) Kara-Tur and our on RW Asia (culture, religion, appearance, language, etc, etc... they even have a friggin' wall!) In my homebrew musing, the Celestial Bureaucracy ruled over a Crystal Sphere that had a cataclysm, and those people became refugees on a dozen or more worlds (which also explains 5 Rings/Rokugan, etc). I don't know how RW Asians would feel about me making them 'aliens', but this IS the D&D Earth I am talking about here.

Hmmmm... maybe those early 'Viking' ships (from Midgard?) were actually some sort of Rune-empowered Planesjammers? Maybe they had done all they could on their world, and found a way to "go a'viking" (raiding) on other worlds? That would be both different and interesting. Planer Vikings... thats kind of cool. Then we could even use the Sundering (or some other magical apocalypse) to explain why those ships stopped working, and they all got stranded on whatever worlds they were on at the time. Would be neat to have a party of adventurers find and figure out how to get one of those planes-hopping longships working again!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2015 16:37:32
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8542 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2015 :  16:03:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My personal view of Norse Mythology and the realms is that they were one of the early interloper races of humans (NOT from earth). They also were NOT part of the creator races.... they were just another subset of humans located on Toril. They also became spread out via portals, and thus various groups brought different deities to different areas. They experienced their version of Ragnarok long ago fighting against Annam and his brood, as well as the death goddess with light and dark halves (Selune/Shar or Ssharrstrune?). As a result, some of their deities exist in Toril still, but possibly changed. Some came in as entirely different names. For instance, I like the idea that Valigan Thirdborn who was known to be in Jhaamdath before Tyr returned... who appears to be a chaos / corruption based god.... is actually this reality's version of Loki Laufeyson... and that he is actually a giant deity who has interloped to become a human deity by allying with the Norse deities long ago. Noting, this does match with Norse lore, in that Loki is the son of Farbauti and Laufey, and he has brothers Býleistr and Helblindi.... so he can be the thirdborn.

Along these lines, the Norse mythology mentions a very nature oriented group (the Vanir) that they war with and then ally with by trading captives (Njord, the ocean god, Freyr, lord of the elves and the Sun, and Freyja, the fertility and love goddess). I submit that these deities may correspond to other Torilian deities (as in the Norse gods of this realm accepted deities of other pantheons for these roles). The question is, are these elven deities... Celtic Pantheon... Finnish Pantheon.... some kind of mix of all three? Njord could be Ulutiu. Freyr could be Lathander. Freyja could be Sune or the elven deity of love.

The last take I have is that there is some kind of long/twisted story with Talos. I've thrown out a lot of ideas over the years pertaining to him, but I keep coming back to one. Personally, I'm of the view that Talos is somehow a twisted amalgam of Odin & Thor (as in Thor gave up his storm powers to Odin after dying to the world serpent, in the process of slaying/breaking up the world serpent). Odin himself died to Kezef the Chaos Hound in this same battle. Somehow or other, Talos comes around later and kind of wears this spear wielding "suit" of Odin, absorbing his portfolios. The how of this matter could make a great story.

Of the other Aesir Norse gods, they're dead except for Heimdall (Helm) and Tyr..... except that they were finally turned upon one another during the spellplague.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8542 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2015 :  16:13:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and another take on this thing is that a lot of these dead deities "bodies" / "essences" are used by Ao and or other deities when promoting mortals to deific status. As a result, they begin to have "bleedover" from past incarnations that the mortal form had no involvment with. So, for instance, in the above, I have that Valigan Thirdborn is Loki... but it could also be that Cyric is ALSO born upon the "essence" of Loki... and slowly he is being manipulated by this past incarnation. Along these lines, the red knight could be using the "essence" of Sif, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2015 :  20:45:44  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting stuff sleyvas, but Freyja was a not only a goddess of fretility and love and she was more like Inanna/Ishtar, rather than Aphrodite(and Sune by extension). Freyja was also a goddess of war, death(in battle, shared the slain with Odin), sorcery. Freyr is also a very nature oriented, and is sometimes described as having antlers(he kills the giant Beli with them, during Ragnarok), like Cernunos, Herne, and Silvanus. Freyr is also described as the lord of the Light Elves.

I wondered if Freyr and Freyja weren't maybe the human/Norse interpretation of Corellon Larethian, who split him into two deties, of two sexes, rather than worship Corellon as an androgenous/hermaphroditic deity.

[EDIT]

And there indeed is possibly a precedence of merging with an old god's, to ascend a mortal, as it's very possible Shevarash was ascended by merging him with Elikarashae. So it's possible Valigan's vestige, was used by Ao to fully ascend Cyric.

Also, about the Northmen, I didn't mean that Rengarth and Ice Hunters are identical with them, only that they share the same ancestors, with now Rengarth, Azuposi, Illuskan, and Ice Hunters, all being descended from the same stock of northern humans.

It's possible that the Norse people(who split later into Illuskans, and possibly Azuposi, and if my theories could be right, Rengarth and Ice Hunters), went to Toril through Batrachi made portals, that possibly transported them in time and space.

And yeah, Talos does seem like a corrupted version of Odin, but I also seen him more as a fusion of Zeus with Odin, rather than Thor and Odin. If one read Greek myths(or played God of War ), Zeus was a pretty cruell deity.
There is a reason why Tv Tropes has Zeus as the picture representing the God is Evil article.

[EDIT2]

To be clear I got my theory about the Rengarth and Ice Hunters being related to the Azuposi and Illuskans, from this fragment from the original Grand History of the Realms:

quote:

In the wake of the Sundering, many human
of Azuposi descent found themselves on mainland Faer#251;n or scattered on newly created islands of the Trackless Sea. By - 3000 DR these humans would become known as the Illuskan people and found the realm of Illusk along the northern shores of the Sword Coast.



I would guess the Azuposi stranded on the islands, became Illuskans, while the Azuposi stranded on the North Western part of Faerun, became the Rengarth and Ice Hunters. Especialy that their location on the map of Faerun - 24,000 DR, fits were Ice Hunters developed.

But that's only my crazy theory...

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Mar 2015 08:47:43
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2015 :  12:32:59  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, as you yourself proposed sleyvas in the Talos - some research into Alias' & real world thread

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

"In the Cretan dialect, talôs was the equivalent of the Greek hêlios, the Sun: the lexicon of Hesychius of Alexandria notes simply "Talos is the Sun". In Crete Zeus was worshipped as Zeus Tallaios"




So I think it's possible Kozah absorbed Odin, and Zeus Tallaios, before becoming Talos we know. The Original Kozah, could be just a god of Elemental destruction, and only got the aspects of a storm god, and god of rebelion, after absorbing/subsuming Zeus and Odin.

[Edit]

So I think that Kozah, could absorb a number of deities.
I think the Chondathan deity he absorbed, possibly of Sun and Storm, could be named "Tallaios". The Talfir deity, could be named Taranis, Tanarus, Taranos, or Tuireann, after the Celtic God of Storms, thunder, or something similar. When the Talfir, Chondathans, and Netherese, started to mix, the names of Tallaios and Taranos, got mixed and confated, created the name "Talos".

Edited by - Baltas on 30 Mar 2015 00:32:28
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8542 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  15:39:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Interesting stuff sleyvas, but Freyja was a not only a goddess of fretility and love and she was more like Inanna/Ishtar, rather than Aphrodite(and Sune by extension). Freyja was also a goddess of war, death(in battle, shared the slain with Odin), sorcery. Freyr is also a very nature oriented, and is sometimes described as having antlers(he kills the giant Beli with them, during Ragnarok), like Cernunos, Herne, and Silvanus. Freyr is also described as the lord of the Light Elves.

I wondered if Freyr and Freyja weren't maybe the human/Norse interpretation of Corellon Larethian, who split him into two deties, of two sexes, rather than worship Corellon as an androgenous/hermaphroditic deity.

[EDIT]

And there indeed is possibly a precedence of merging with an old god's, to ascend a mortal, as it's very possible Shevarash was ascended by merging him with Elikarashae. So it's possible Valigan's vestige, was used by Ao to fully ascend Cyric.

Also, about the Northmen, I didn't mean that Rengarth and Ice Hunters are identical with them, only that they share the same ancestors, with now Rengarth, Azuposi, Illuskan, and Ice Hunters, all being descended from the same stock of northern humans.

It's possible that the Norse people(who split later into Illuskans, and possibly Azuposi, and if my theories could be right, Rengarth and Ice Hunters), went to Toril through Batrachi made portals, that possibly transported them in time and space.

And yeah, Talos does seem like a corrupted version of Odin, but I also seen him more as a fusion of Zeus with Odin, rather than Thor and Odin. If one read Greek myths(or played God of War ), Zeus was a pretty cruell deity.
There is a reason why Tv Tropes has Zeus as the picture representing the God is Evil article.

[EDIT2]

To be clear I got my theory about the Rengarth and Ice Hunters being related to the Azuposi and Illuskans, from this fragment from the original Grand History of the Realms:

quote:

In the wake of the Sundering, many human
of Azuposi descent found themselves on mainland Faer#251;n or scattered on newly created islands of the Trackless Sea. By - 3000 DR these humans would become known as the Illuskan people and found the realm of Illusk along the northern shores of the Sword Coast.



I would guess the Azuposi stranded on the islands, became Illuskans, while the Azuposi stranded on the North Western part of Faerun, became the Rengarth and Ice Hunters. Especialy that their location on the map of Faerun - 24,000 DR, fits were Ice Hunters developed.

But that's only my crazy theory...



Yeah, they were very different. But my main thing is that in EARTH mythology, they came from the war with Vanaheim. Nothing says that in Abeir-Toril mythology that a specific war with gods of Vanaheim happens (nothing even says that the Norse deities were here is canon either, just to be clear). However, maybe they had some kind of interaction with the gods of another nature pantheon and adopted them in before their Ragnarok against the giants and primordial happened.

Thus, I present the idea that there weren't actually many Asgardian gods. A lot of what we think of as Asgardian gods were actually interlopers (jotuns, vanir, some other nature deity). Even in the list below, some of those who are listed as Aesir (such as Sif) could easily be interlopers. I state this, because this then becomes that Ragnarok as the "end of the Aesir gods" might just be seen as just another powerful divine conflict in which a lot of deities died..... which corresponds to the Dawn Conflict or whatever its called with the war with the primordial.


Aesir deities:

Odin (the all father, Sky god)

Balder/Baldr (god of light, joy, purity, beauty, innocence, and reconciliation.... and of rebirth, as he is one of the deities that returns from Hel after Ragnarok). He might make a very good Lathander.

Bragi (god of poetry, eloquence & song) - a son of Odin, mother unknown

Forseti (god of laws) - Balder's son. His name means justice, but in actual lore, there are no stories of him providing justice, only providing laws to live by.

Hermod (god of speed) - Odin's son.

Thor (god of thunder and lightning) - although I list Thor as a Aesir deity, technically his mother was a jotun named Jord.

Magni (Thor's son, god of strength) - even moreso than Thor, I list his son as Aesir, but he is more Jotun than Aesir, as their mother is a jotun named Jarnsaxa and not Sif

Modi (Thor's son, god of courage and berserk rage) - mother unknown, assumed to be Sif.

Sif (goddess of Skill in battle) - parentage unknown, so making the assumption that she is Aesir.

Tyr (god of war and justice) - even Tyr is questionable as an Aesir, as there are things stating that both Odin and Hymir (a Jotun) are his father. However, its probably easiest to assume he is Aesir.

Ullr (Uller) - (god of hunting) - Ullr is Thor's stepson by Sif. In theory, if Sif and the father weren't Aesir, then this deity might not be as well.

Vidar (god of strength & vengeance) - son of Odin. Destined to kill the Fenris Wolf & survive Ragnarok.



Giant / Primordial deities/beings:

Aegir (giant "god" of storms & the sea)

Surtur - god of fire giants

Thrym - god of frost giants

Heimdall (the watchman, god of rainbows... he was born of nine jotun maidens)

Loki (god of mischief, strife and fire)- son of Fárbauti and Laufey, both jotuns, but taken in by the Aesir as a youth.

Fenris Wolf (as a child of Loki's and Angrboda's, both giant born)

Jormungandr (the world serpent, a child of Loki's and Angrboda's, both giant born)

Hela (two-faced death goddess)- (as a child of Loki's and Angrboda's, both giant born)

Skadi - (goddess of bowhunting, skiing, winter, and mountains) giantess who comes to wed Njord when the Aesir slay her father.

Vanir deities:
Njord (god of the sea)
Freyr (god of virility, prosperity, sunshine and fair weather) - destined to be killed by Surtr during Ragnarok

Freyja (goddess of fertility, love, the Valkyries)

Nature deities:

Frigg - (goddess of divination, marriage, childbirth & love) - whether Frigg is actually an Aesir or not is also debatable. I therefore list her as a "nature" deity

Idunn (Goddess of spring, immortal youth and eternal life) - Bragi brings Idunn to Asgard as his wife. It doesn't say where she's from, but she's obviously not an Aesir. She could easily be some Archfey.

Norns (fate goddesses, swan forms when travelling the earth)

Dwarven Deities:
Fjalar

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  16:33:36  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A very interesting take, although it's theorized that Frigga was originaly identical to Freyja, and only pretty late into the viking era, did they become trully separate. Idunn was similary probably identical with Freyja, and probably started out as an aspect of the Freyja cult, before separating. Although Idunn was separated much earlier, than Freyja, and Frigga.

Freyja, and Vanir, in general in the d&d universe/multiverse/Planescape, are probably related to the Seladrine and Faerie pantheon.
Ullr is theorized to be Vanir in origin, so Sif may also be one of the Vanir.

In Planescape, Eilistraee had her realm in Svartalfheim, the realm of Svartalfar/Dokkalfar.

[EDIT]

Aedrie Fenya's realm, also is part of the time in Alfheim, partialy in Arvandor. The Same Alfheim which Freyr rules, and Light Elves/Lios Alfar live in.

Planescape's Book of Chaos also states, "Some say that Alfheim was once a part of Arvandor, and gradually slid over into Ysgard as its people grew more concerned with honor and survival."

Seeing the connection between Vanir, and Ligh Elves, I think the original Vanaheim, could be in Arvandor. Vanir could be once part of Seldarine, or a very closely related group.
In Monster Mythology, Erevan Ilesere is curiously compared to Loki, with his birth of Eachthighern, being compared to Loki giving birth to Slepnir. Maybe Erevan Ilesere is in reality Loki, who interloped also to the Seldarine? But I think Ereven aspect could get disconnected from Loki, when Loki became much more malevolent, with now Loki and Erevan Ilesere being separete deities.

Edited by - Baltas on 02 Apr 2015 09:58:23
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2015 :  17:02:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And then there is the (RW) theory that Aesir = Assura in Vedic myth. Could the Vanir possibly be the Vedic deities? Are we looking at some fragment of actual history between two very powerful (perhaps even technologically advanced) groups from prehistoric times who were at war? You can almost imagine that the myths of both groups are just two sides of the same story. The Vedic deity Ki also appears in Sumerian mythology, and is VERY similar to MielikKi.

And, of course, the Vedic pantheon IS canon to FR (at least a small portion of it, way over in Malatra).

Which is why I go back to my 'One World' theory, before the Godwar and the Sundering (The Shattering) - we are looking at one great story that has become fragmented and retold so many times by different (surviving) cultures, and spread across many worlds. The Five Creator Races would have 'come into being' on THAT world, and bits and pieces of them survive all over the multiverse in various forms. Humans - whats left of the Blackmoor civilization - would turn out to be the most successful survivor, being the dominant species on most worlds (thanks to their adaptive abilities, although all the Creatori has some sort of ability to adapt to different circumstances/environments).

One of my favorite bits of homebrew lore is where I theorized that Zakhara was originally the home of powerful Rakshasa (similar to how they are in parts of Eberron). The Beastlord Baast grew tired of being Nobanion's (Aslan¹) concubine; she was more adventuress then the stuffy law-giver ("King of the jungle"), and tried to join the Pharonic Pantheon. She was snubbed by them, until the Godwar broke out. Desperate for more troops (cannon-fodder) to throw at the other gods, Ra (Amaunator²) agreed to let her in if she found suitable 'shock troops' for them to use. She then approached a group of neutral fiends - the Khaasta (reptilian demons) and coaxed them to work for the Pharonic gods (using her 'wiles', I suppose). For their part in the Godwar, they asked to be left-alone (unmolested) for all eternity by the Pharonics, and be allowed to settle in certain parts of of the Prime Material after it was all over. Ra reluctantly agreed, but then placed a powerful spell over them all, transforming them into a similar (cat-like) visage as Baast, to forever remind her that she was responsible for what was wrought that day. So Ra's Khaasta - which eventually became Rakshasa - fought for the Pharonic gods, and were allowed to settle in parts of the Prime Material.

However, no-one foresaw the outcome - the destruction of the One, True World, so they became scattered like everyone else. They still wear the feline form Ra forced them in, and the Pharonic deities still leave them be (albeit reluctantly, at times).

One of the areas that they settled was Zakhara, which was a lush africa-like continent back then (jungles, swamps, savannas, etc). They then used their demonic powers to summon elemental lords (Dgen) to serve them... along with the native halfling population. They began to kidnap humans and others (elves, dwarves, etc³) from other regions as well, which would ultimately lead to their undoing. The Dgen Lords eventually figured out how to break free from Rakshasa control and drove them from the continent (into the Yehimals, where they displaced the Dwarves around -16,000 DR).

One thing lead to another, and the Dgen were no better then the Rakshasa at ruling Zakhara, and fell into fighting amongst themselves. The Efreet Lord Memnon was ultimately victorious, driving the others out of Zakhara as the dgen had done to the Rakshasa milenia earlier (which would be when those first Dgen started arriving in Calimshan). Memnon was a cruel master, and burned much of the world in his wrathful rages. Three minor deities of destiny - who normally would only observe and not get involved with mortal affairs - took it upon themselves to right this affront against nature. Merging into one powerful Goddess - Fate - she drove Memnon and his followers from Zakhara as well (and this would be when Memnon finally showed up in Calimshan).

However, around the same time when the Dgen were warring on each other in Calimshan, a human - the first Sha'ir - began to experiment with ways to control the genies and harnass their power for mortal use. Legend (Al-Qadim canon) has it where he struck a deal with the Dgen Lords for their service - one that was mutually beneficial. But when the great Elemental Lords were all driven from Zakhara, the new Sha'ir realized they no longer had to pay homage to them, and began to create their own empires. Dozens rose and fell during that period, and eventually the tripatriate Goddess was forced once-again to act, realizing that she had inadvertently doomed the land to much the same fate as it had originally, but with different 'masters'. So began the 'Scattering of Fate', wherein huge, mobile portals were created to scoop-up all the peoples of Zakhara and deposit them just outside the borders of "The Land of Fate" (Note: this was very similar to how the Imaskari just to the north abducted peoples from other worlds). Most wandered and settled other lands, as did the Muhjuri people that would eventually become the Golden waters tribes and the Imaskari. Some stayed on the fringes of their old lands, settling along the coasts or just outside of Zakhara-proper (there is evidence of Zakharan culture in the Utter East), or on the numerous islands that surround that land. At least four empires arose along the NE of Zakhara around the Sagara Sea, all to eventually fall themselves (some say it is the curse of the Rakshasa, who still work behind-the-scenes in that region, creating all sorts of nasty cults and corrupting the people).

Since the Scattering, there have been several 'eras' of Zakharan history; great empires rise and control most - if not all - of the continent, only to fall back into small warring kingdoms. During these 'lows' much history is lost, and when a new empire arises to take the place of the old and unite Zakhara, it always claims to be the first and only empire. Such is the Narcissism of humanity. The current empire claims Zakharan history only began a thousand years ago... but the rest of Toril knows better. They've even had female Sultans! (This last bit was to fix some continuity problems between FR lore and AQ, and also a minor fix to to the GHotR). However, when you look at their legends it is easy to see that their history goes MUCH further back then they are willing to admit.

Sorry that was so long - that was an uber-fix for a bunch of disparate stuff between FR, K-T (which I left out otherwise this would have been three times the size!), AQ, and The Hordelands. There may have also been some 'temporal anomalies' with the timeline as well (when the Dgen wars were taking place in Zakhara and their arrival in Calimshan). Fate may have had a hand in that - for a time she was considered an 'Overgod' (her power limit went above the normal DvR range for just a god, which is one of the reasons I've spun her as a tripatriate deity)). Take everything here as PURE HOMBREW, rather then conjecture. I've based it on some stray bits of canon I've woven together, but its very little compared to all the stuff I had to 'make-up' from scratch.


¹ I also think Torm is a human aspect of Nobanion.
² Ra = Amun-Ra = Amaunator. The leap is fairly simple to make.
³ The Rakshasa are known to have experimented on people, much like the Creator races, and are responsible for nearly all of the 'cat-like' mortal races around the multiverse. The tabaxi catfolk were actually a tribe of chultan Tabaxi that were kidnapped and breed to their current state (hence the duel-usage of the term - they kept their tribal name for themselves).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2015 17:11:26
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2015 :  14:18:32  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting stuff Markustay.
Although I think the Rakshasa could be originaly celestial servants, under the gods, or to be specific, the 4E Devas. There could be rebellion connected to Baast, and that's why when the Deva transformed into fiends, they became feline Rakshasa.
Especialy that it's notted allready in canon that Mulhorandi gods produced deva, and that fallen Deva, become Rakshasa...

Yeah, I read about the Asura and Aesir connetion, and probable that Aesir emerged from the Asura part of the proto-pantheons. Although in the D&D/Planescape multiverse, I think that Vanir are connected to Archfey, and Seldarine. Freyr, a Vanir god, inherted the rule of Alfheim, showing that Vanir are connected to Alfheim.
And as I wrote before, in the Planes of Chaos, it was theorized that Alfheim was once part of Arvandor.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 17 Apr 2015 :  19:48:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that was my take some years ago, but it probably needs to be re-tweaked. I try to not over-use the whole 'proto' thing, but thats what those Rakshasa were - proto-Rakshasa, so YES, they could very well have been 'deva' (Celestial Servants). I think close to the beginning (of time), the 'plan' was for everything to be neutral, and each group of celestial (outsider) beings were part of a hierarchy (much like how it is in the Celestial Bureaucracy).

As time went on, and universe went from a 'blank slate' to a highly-detailed setting, some (if not all) of these 'higher beings' began to develop personalities, and formed into 'cliches' (proto-pantheons?) At that time there would have been no concept of 'fiends' or 'angels' (celestials - the later D&D usage of the word), but rather, just groups of beings with various leanings and agendas of their own. All of that terminology would come later, after the Godwar, and the destruction of the First World (when death came into existence).

This would also apply to the Vanir, who would have been a group more about the preservation of 'the natural order' initially, but then slowly split over time into those more concerned about 'natural' (The Feylords) and those more concerned about 'order' - the Rigveda (perhaps some ancient translation of 'inflexible Vanir'?) So what would appear to be separate and distinct groups now were actually part of a singular, larger group which has fragmented (as did all the other 'heavenly hosts').

The Vedic/Hindu deities then moved to Nirvana on the new-established 'Great Ring' (the shape of the universe post-Godwar), whilst their more nature-minded kin moved to Arvandor (Alfheim). Eventually the Vedic Pantheon would be supplanted by their own creations - the Modrons - and Nirvana would be renamed 'Mechanus'.

Split for brevity

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2015 19:52:43
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Markustay
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Posted - 17 Apr 2015 :  19:51:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Conjecture Continued...

I have lots and LOTS of little tweaks in my (homebrew D&D) cosmology, which includes that Corellon (Cor'Elion) and Gruumsh (Gru-Maas) were not only brothers, but TWINS. Fraternal twins by Titania, with two different fathers. Cor ('something worthy of worship'/devine) Elion was the son of Frey Elion - King of the light elves, and Gru-Maas ('wild spirit') the son of Malekith (stolen from Marvel Comics), lord of the DokAlfar ('Dark Elves'). Both were called upon to lead their respective tribes after their fathers became 'indisposed' (both were prisoners after some deific conflict - Frey went to Asgard and Malekith was locked-up in Hel).

So really, the whole 'pantheon' thing is a human (demihuman/humanoid) convention. The gods (and nearly all other outsiders) are really just part of one HUGE group, which has fragmented into hundreds and hundreds of smaller 'cliches', and some beings are even part of more then one (some make it their business to be in as many as they can - 'gods of mischief' are known for this).

So mortals are the ones drawing all these 'hard lines' between various planer beings, when in fact they are all related and inter-connected, even the (Planer) Giants. 'The Gods' (Assura, Deva, Kami, etc) don't go by names like we do - they judge the others by their power-level and political leanings. So you CAN have Fiend-lords and even 'giants' that have more power (and sway) then some 'gods', as it ought to be, because that fits with mythology. If anything, becoming a 'deity' (a being capable of receiving worship and delivering power back to its faithful) is more like a 'power hack', and may even be frowned upon by some (like the Primordials).

I often say that Outsiders are really just energy given form by their consciousness, and the group consciousness of the mortals that believe in them. It might be easier to think of them as a liquid, however, like water. Water doesn't have to be in one place - you can take it apart and split it as many times as you like... but it gets diluted. Suppose the vedic gods tasted like cherry, and the Norse gods tasted like grape, and the Pharonic gods tasted like orange, etc. You could 'pour' a little of the same god into each pantheon, and it would still be that god, but it would be 'flavored' by their environment. The more times a god splits-off this way (sends avatars off into other pantheons, in D&D jargon), the more 'diluted' they become, and could even risk 'losing themselves' (having that bit completely subsumed by the pantheon, or even absorbed by some other being who "takes their stuff").

So yeah... now I am sort of back to my 'lava lamp' analogy. Thats how I see the gods, and thats how I see the universe - always changing and mixing and re-mixing together. Mortals are special because they are 'born of the prime', which means that each of them has a wee-bit of the divine spark within them (a leftover from when the First world - Ymir - was shattered). With that first death mortality was born, and the fragmented spirit of the 'great old One' Ymir resides in us all. It is THAT power which Outsiders covet - that is the one true commodity of the multiverse - God-power. Its is in limited supply,and only by starting a cult (religion) can a god access more then their normal share.

After the death of their brother Ymir, the other High Ordials (super-Overgods) withdrew from the workings of the Celestial Bureaucracy. This is how it is in the Mystara (OD&D) setting - their is another 'plane' beyond the one the gods reside in - a place for the 'gods of gods', so far removed from the normal universe its little more then speculation. They leave their children - all those being they helped create (the Outsiders, including Primordials) - to fight over the physical multiverse, whilst they reside each in their own respective dimensions (of which there are 11, total... I even try to give a nod to science/physics). Two overlap much more closely then the others and are actually now just two parts of one whole now - the 'Gaea' (lifeforce/'sentience') and the 'Ymir' (spirit/Old magic), which is reflected by the Astral and Ethereal Planes which straddle the Prime. This is because Gaea wrapped herself around the dying form of Ymir and mixed her energy with his, causing the material world to coalesce into new worlds (crystal spheres).

"Let there be Light!"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2015 19:57:50
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Baltas
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Posted - 18 Apr 2015 :  11:29:43  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting stuff Markustay, and I was allways curious if you took Malekith from Marvel Comics, or Warhammer Fantasy.
The Rigveda, could overtime, become confused with their servants(called deva), and started to use the names Deva themselves.
Some of the Rigveda, could have become corrupted(by Asmodeus/Ahriman?), and become Daeva(Zoroastrian devils), who were some of the first Lord of the Nine.
The Rigveda would also have a semi-alliance with part of the Asura, but there would often be conflict between the groups.
It the "Hell" were Malekith is imprissoned, is Baator, or some other lower plane?
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sleyvas
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Posted - 18 Apr 2015 :  16:36:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Very interesting stuff Markustay.
Although I think the Rakshasa could be originaly celestial servants, under the gods, or to be specific, the 4E Devas. There could be rebellion connected to Baast, and that's why when the Deva transformed into fiends, they became feline Rakshasa.
Especialy that it's notted allready in canon that Mulhorandi gods produced deva, and that fallen Deva, become Rakshasa...

Yeah, I read about the Asura and Aesir connetion, and probable that Aesir emerged from the Asura part of the proto-pantheons. Although in the D&D/Planescape multiverse, I think that Vanir are connected to Archfey, and Seldarine. Freyr, a Vanir god, inherted the rule of Alfheim, showing that Vanir are connected to Alfheim.
And as I wrote before, in the Planes of Chaos, it was theorized that Alfheim was once part of Arvandor.



Yeah, I really like the idea that the Vanir are basically a collection of Archfey / Seelie & Unseelie / Seldarine / Celtic deities. It should be remembered also that Njord, Freyr, and Freyja coming to the Aesir was a trade of hostages essentially to establish peace. So, there's some Aesir who were sent to the Vanir as well... but who we don't know. For instance, the Crow/Raven tri-partite Goddesses of War Morrigan, Badb and Macha in the Celtic pantheon who don't suffer fear on the battlefield, could easily be akin to Valkyrie sent as hostages to the Vanir.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
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Posted - 18 Apr 2015 :  17:09:29  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's possible the Valkyrie's at least partialy originated among the Vanir/Fey/Celtic Deities, as their leader was often Freyja, a Vanir deity. And Valkyries, were sometimes members of the Wild Hunt.

Freyja's cloak of feather's, let her actualy tranform herself into a bird, which further connects her to the Crow/Raven tri-partite Goddesses of War.

Maybe there even is some connection of Freyja to Aerdrie Faenya(who by the way, part of the time spends in Alfheim...), and to Angharradh. Faenya even sounds a bit like Freyja. Maybe Freyja is the merged aspect of Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya, similary to Angharradh, but created from only 2 goddesses.

Angharradh herself resembles the various triple goddesses of Celts too.
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Apr 2015 :  20:13:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The concept of 'winged women' who bring 'the fallen' to the afterlife is a very common theme amongst religions/mythology. I suppose, like Succubus, they can actually appear as either sex (maybe there is some comforting factor in the opposite sex coming for you to 'take you home'). In fact, Succubi/Erynies could very well be the fallen/evil version of the Valkyrie/angels.

I have two conditions that affect 'fall' - there is 'taint' and there is corruption. 'Taint' pulls you down the evil axis, and 'Corruption' pulls you down the Chaotic axis. Evil is natural to the universe - i go with the (now) canon background that Asmodeus and the other devils 'fell' when they decided 'law' was much more important then 'good'. I also like the 4e spin (Gasp!) of the demons - that they are corrupted Elementals. Part of my Cosmology is that there is a force of pure corruption (Cthulhu/Dark God/Entropy/whatever) that is locked outside the normal multiverse (in The Far Realms) and works to corrupt beings within the universe to its own ends, with the ultimate agenda being the complete destruction of the universe. It makes some sense that it would have started with the elementals, who are responsible for the basic building blocks of the physical world.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Very interesting stuff Markustay, and I was allways curious if you took Malekith from Marvel Comics, or Warhammer Fantasy.
The Rigveda, could overtime, become confused with their servants(called deva), and started to use the names Deva themselves.
Some of the Rigveda, could have become corrupted(by Asmodeus/Ahriman?), and become Daeva(Zoroastrian devils), who were some of the first Lord of the Nine.
The Rigveda would also have a semi-alliance with part of the Asura, but there would often be conflict between the groups.
It the "Hell" were Malekith is imprisoned, is Baator, or some other lower plane?
My Malekith is an amalgam of both, really. I guess WH's take is closer (how could I have forgotten about that? I was building a second WH army of Dark Elves!)

Malekith was imprisoned in Hel. Not sure where that falls-out in my cosmology (my Great ring only has 8 'slices' around it, corresponding to the 8 alignments). My 'Hells are Baator, The Grey Waste, and The Abyss, each with three layers (so, NINE hells), and they are ruled by Asmodeus, Lucifer (Hades), and Satan, respectively. Satan (Shaitan) is the son of Lucifer (nod to Little Nicky - fun film), but he is the crazy one in the family (hence leaning toward chaos). The Norse Hel probably should fall out somewhere in those three, but I am not sure whats the best fit. Hela seems very 'lawful', but the people who go to her realm aren't necessarily so. Niflheim makes the most sense (second layer of The Grey Waste). The Hells - like in 3e/4e canon - were originally prisons for powerful beings after the first Godwar.

Yeah Hela's realm and Malekith's prison in Niflheim, I guess. Asmodeus*, BTW, is also sometimes called Mephisto (Marvel comics version), even though there already is a separate entity known as Mephisto. Fiends like to confuse people like that.



*I only thought of this last bit because I borrow a lot from Marvel, and I like some of the interaction between Loki, Hela, and Mephisto. I use all their other 'cosmic entities' as well (I love me some Living Tribunal!)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2015 20:15:59
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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  16:56:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bear in mind, the Valkyries weren't winged. They rode pegasi. However, Ukko from Finnish mythology had winged maidens (though I know not a single story of Ukko or said maidens).

I will also agree, I'm not against the idea that the devils being fallen "angels" of some sort from long ago. The demons being corrupted elementals, I could buy for SOME demons. I prefer my demons have a more myriad and undefined background.

Oh, and the Loki, Hela, Mephisto thing from Marvel.... yeah, I absolutely LOVE the storyline Kieron Gillen (sp?) did for them. The idea that Leah was a figment of Loki's imagination given life.... and eventually gets sent to the past to grow up and become Hela.... amazing idea to have Loki be the parent of Hela.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
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Posted - 20 Apr 2015 :  13:34:53  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting to discover how your version of the lower planes works Markustay, and yeah, Little Nicky is an underrated movie.

About Valkyries, in Poetic Edda, a Volva(witch/seer) told Odin that Valkyries come from "far away".
And while indeed Valkyries weren't winged, they were asociated with birds(mainly ravens and swans).
Valkyries were even sometimes identical with Swan Maidens, with Valkyries taking form of Swans.
And originaly, Valkyries rode giant winged wolves. Pretty cool, isn't it?

And about demons and elementals, in The Temple of Elemental Evil(or at least in the computer RPG version of it), 4 types of demons were asociated with elements:
Balor with Fire
Vrock with Air
Glabrezu with Earth
and Hezrou with Water.

So guess that maybe the first Balors were corrpted Fire Elementals, first Glabrezu corrupted Earth Elementals, first Vrocks corrupted Air Elementals, and first Hezrou corrupted Air Elementals.

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Apr 2015 17:48:31
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Apr 2015 :  00:14:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Very interesting to discover how your version of the lower planes works Markustay, and yeah, Little Nicky is an underrated movie.

About Valkyries, in Poetic Edda, a Volva(witch/seer) told Odin that Valkyries come from "far away".
And while indeed Valkyries weren't winged, they were asociated with birds(mainly ravens and swans).
Valkyries were even sometimes identical with Swan Maidens, with Valkyries taking form of Swans.
And originaly, Valkyries rode giant winged wolves. Pretty cool, isn't it?

And about demons and elementals, in The Temple of Elemental Evil(or at least in the computer RPG version of it), 4 types of demons were asociated with elements:
Balor with Fire
Vrock with Air
Glabrezu with Earth
and Hezrou with Water.

So guess that maybe the first Balors were corrpted Fire Elementals, first Glabrezu corrupted Earth Elementals, first Vrocks corrupted Air Elementals, and first Hezrou corrupted Air Elementals.




Hmmm, ok, I could buy the Valkyries being interlopers from another pantheon (Finnish or Celtic).

Hmmm, Balors as fire elementals. I'd buy them more as corrupted Efreeti.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
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Posted - 21 Apr 2015 :  11:02:39  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I was very general with "elementals", to me it might be genies as well. Efreeti indeed could make very good "ancestors" for balors.

[EDIT]

And Vrock could be corrupted Arrowhawks, and I think Mephits could be partialy corrupted elementals, but not enough to make them true fiends.

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Apr 2015 09:13:36
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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Apr 2015 :  17:35:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, going to 'go out on a limb' here, but my thinking with Valkyries, Deva, angels, Ukko, etc is that they can fly, period. I suppose most outsiders can - at least the ones ancient enough to have pre-existed the current universe and its set of physical laws.

So borrowing from video games like WoW or even Wizards101, there is just 'flying', which can be represented by wings, a mount, a broom... even a flying pestle and mortar. Like everything else concerning the 'spirit world' (those places beyond the Prime Material), how we see things is tainted by either our religious views, or how the being itself prefers to be seen (in other words, the religious variant would be the 'default' setting, unless the being chose to appear differently). This goes for their physical appearance, so why not their method of transportation? In other words, people see what they expect to see (unless a more power psyche is influencing what they see). You grow-up believing in 'winged beings', and then you see someone flying, your mind is going to slap some wings onto that image.

This goes back to my 'all things are really just energy given form' theory, which shoe-horns perfectly with D&D's Illusion system (if you believe in it, it becomes real for you).

I also whole-heartedly agree about demons and even devils. What I said above is the real basic general description of how many of them may have began. However, in a (near) infinite multiverse, anything is possible, and although many devils and demons may trace their roots back to angels and elementals (respectively), thats not necessarily always the case, and if anything, players are more likely to interact with 'exceptions to the rule' more often then not (because those are the outsiders that are trying to change their circumstances, in one way or another, and not 'fitting the mold' of the standard ones... even demons).

I also believe that ALL deities are ascended mortals. The word 'god' is actually just a generic term for any outsider of that tier (having its own domain), and just about any outsider could theoretically become a god given enough power. A deity is just a god that has taken on a 'template' (soul?) that allows it to create a two-way conduit for spiritual energy with mortals. This, of course, is far easier for something that was already born into the mortal world. I also believe that some exceptional mortals may become Outsiders themselves once they 'pass on' to an afterlife, but that is also not the rule (so truly evil or good people may get a 'job' in the afterlife, like how Petitioners are in Planescape). I suppose, technically, all mortals become Outsiders once they die, but I am talking about monster-manual stuff (mortals becoming angels or demons, etc).

You could work your way 'up the ranks' from any level, of course. Its very open-ended. Gods want to become Overgods, Overgods want to become Ultragods, Ultragods want to become 'Elder Gods', etc... Humans have little to no knowledge of anything above the normal 'god' tier (which would include primordials and even greater planer giants). As in the case of Ao, when mortals become aware of these beings and their doings, they are usually caused to forget about them soon afterward.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2015 17:37:10
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Eltheron
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Posted - 23 Apr 2015 :  20:50:25  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

About Valkyries, in Poetic Edda, a Volva(witch/seer) told Odin that Valkyries come from "far away".
And while indeed Valkyries weren't winged, they were asociated with birds(mainly ravens and swans).
Valkyries were even sometimes identical with Swan Maidens, with Valkyries taking form of Swans.
And originaly, Valkyries rode giant winged wolves. Pretty cool, isn't it?]


Just curious here - which source has Valkyries riding winged wolves?

I recall them having swan-feather cloaks that allowed them to fly or turn into swans, but having winged wolves is new to me. Is this in one of the Eddas?

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Baltas
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Posted - 24 Apr 2015 :  00:00:36  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In Helgakvi#240;a Hundingsbana I, Sigrun's is suggested to a have wolf mount, and on the Rök Runestone, Valkyries are outright said to raid wolves.
They aren't explicedly called winged(I may have overstated that one), but probably were capable of flight.
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  16:57:53  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I would differentiate between Tethen, Talfir, and Tethyrian.

(Tethen is a word that first appeared in FR10 - Old Empires in reference to slaves from the west, but I like the term.)

To my mind, Tethen was the ethnic group of tribes in what is now Tethyr and Amn.

Talfir was the ethnic group of tribes west of the Sunset Mountains, south of the High Moor, and north of Amn.

Tethyrian is the melting-pot ethnic group composed of Tethens, Talfir, and Low Netherese who fled southwest.

I'm also thinking that Ebenfar was not an empire in a conventional sense, much like Mordor is not much of a kingdom. Instead, Ebenfar was a hunting grounds in which the far-off Shadowking (who lived in the middle of the High Moor) tormented and terrorized an entire population for 300 or so years. Basically think of it as hunting grounds for the shadevari avatars and similar creatures of shadow.

The humans of this region (who would be mostly Talfir-Netherese, with Tethen blood added later) formed small nomadic tribes that basically wandered around trying to survive and avoid detection by the shadevari. Pretty nightmarish place.

I think Ebenfar stretched from Shavinar (last of the Chionthar kingdoms and never quite conquered ere it fell) and the Reaching Woods. I'm not sure yet what existed in Sunset Vale, but it might have been a giant-ruled kingom. (Still noodling on this.)

--Eric

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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Baltas
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Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  22:15:12  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for the answer Eric, I wondered a long time about this, and it makes sense re-reading the lore.
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TomCosta
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Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  02:00:12  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll just add that when I wrote the original language article it was in the middle of the 2E era. There have been a lot of books (novels and game) that have come out since and have resulted in a number of changes (honestly the FR wiki does a nice job trying to jive it all). With that, IIRC, I believe my original thinking on druidic was 'why do all the druids speak the same language. That's kinda weird but neat. OK, maybe its because the gods of nature taught it to all of them, much like the nonhuman gods were often credited with teaching their people language.' So, again IIRC, I was thinking less about possible ethnic links with druidic than religious/primal/whatever.
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