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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3510 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2018 :  18:16:15  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven

I wonder how people here at Candlekeep feel about warlocks (from Complete Arcane, if I'm not mistaken). I understand general consensus regarding the class is a large resounding "meh" on most forums, as people tend to not enjoy playing one-trick ponies, especially when their one trick - Eldritch Blast - doesn't scale quite well.

I'm of course talking about 3.5 warlocks, as the 5e warlock actually has surprisingly good damage output with Eldritch Blasts.

Edit: I'm sure there are threads about this somewhere already, but I'm typing this at work and feeling a bit lazy ATM.



I've seen a plenty of Warlocks from 3.5 and, on the whole, they're sorely under powered and their "at-will" continuous spells are fun but well below average level. We did a one-shot game where it was Gestalt (two classes mashed together) and I had a Warforged Warlock//Fighter (aka Iron Man) and I had fun until the character was destroyed, which wasn't long into the game.

The thing with Warlocks is that Eldritch Blast invocations aren't all that great or very specific in application and this is especially true at later stages of the game. We had a 16th level campaign and the DM threw a darned Balor against us. The Warlock hit it with EB after EB to which the demon just laughed as it's SR just deflected it completely.

The Warlock in later editions (4th and 5th) would get a much needed boost in terms of both flavor and mechanics. Tying the class to Pacts and then spawning arch-types (Hexblade being one) from the class was an awesome idea and really helped flesh out some different character concepts. Not to mention they made it a good damage dealer vs. whatever the focus was in 3E.


I'm sure I answered the OP's question up thread somewhere but having gained further knowledge of 3.5 I'd have to say hands down the Wizard is more Powerful. Here's a few reasons why:

Versatility. Seriously the Wizard is un-matched in terms of capabilities for any situations. One might think that the Wizard would need some precognition of events to come to plan....but nope. A good wizard has, on hand, spells and items that make overcoming any situations easy. This comes in to play with two things: Feats (scribe scroll) and Items (preferably scrolls).

Lets look at a 2nd level Enchanter for 3.5 - they start with 4 cantrips and 2 spells per day + 1 enchantment spell. Most likely they're sporting an Intelligence of 15 (assuming point buy) for another 1st level spell. So it looks like this: 4/4 with DC 12 + spell level. At 2nd level they'll most likely have a few (4 or so) scrolls to add to their repertoire for a total of 8 1st level spells in any given day. That's pretty darn crazy and should be well equipped to take on multiple encounters - especially with AoE spells that can win the encounter with one casting.

As for other feats, one called Uncanny Forethought allows wizards to cast spells from their spellbook as a full-round action so long as they have an open spell slot of that level or higher. This is also in conjunction with Reserve Feats (minor spell-like abilities for general use) and other item creation feats.

Power. Very few classes have the magical firepower of Arcane classes and while the Sorcerer and Wizard share the same list, a Wizard's extra feats that he can spend on Metamagic ones frees up character feats for things like Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, etc. Not to mention things like Contingency Spells. True, the Sorcerer can fire off more Lightning Bolts in a day but the Wizard probably isn't going to need to.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31390 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2018 :  19:06:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that the wizard has more potential power, but to me, that's balanced by the fact that a wizard has to be prepared for the scenario. Sure, wizards can do that trick of casting spells directly from their spellbooks, but that's slower and requires them to deliberately leave slots open -- and even with the greater amount of available spells, I'm doubting most wizards would leave more than a handful of spell slots open.

So while sorcerers don't have all of the power of wizards, their on-the-spot versatility is a huge benefit.

That's why I maintain that neither is more powerful: all the feats and prepped spells in the world aren't going to do crap if they're useless in a particular scenario. Raw power can certainly carry the day if applied correctly, but always having the right spell handy is just as handy.

I can't speak on the topic of warlocks; the class has never appealed to me (the whole pact thing is not my gig). Ditto for any other flavors of arcane casters.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3510 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2018 :  21:32:04  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I agree that the wizard has more potential power, but to me, that's balanced by the fact that a wizard has to be prepared for the scenario. Sure, wizards can do that trick of casting spells directly from their spellbooks, but that's slower and requires them to deliberately leave slots open -- and even with the greater amount of available spells, I'm doubting most wizards would leave more than a handful of spell slots open.

So while sorcerers don't have all of the power of wizards, their on-the-spot versatility is a huge benefit.

That's why I maintain that neither is more powerful: all the feats and prepped spells in the world aren't going to do crap if they're useless in a particular scenario. Raw power can certainly carry the day if applied correctly, but always having the right spell handy is just as handy.


If we're judging the two classes based on just the options provided in the Player's Handbook, then I completely agree with you. Wizard's requirement to be prepared vs. the sorcerers greater spells/day but less variety is a good balance point.

If we're expanding it to all official options from 3.5, then the Wizard pulls away as certain feats make it less likely the Wizard needs to rely on recon and the selection of "correct" spells for the day. And think of it, a Wizard with Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) he can keep a number of spell slots open equal to his Intelligence modifier and cast any spell he has memorized via Spell Mastery as a Standard Action OR any spell in his entire book as a Full-Round action. That's pretty potent. Add in Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) he gets another open slot he can cast whatever he wants (standard action) that he knows. So for a 10th level Wizard with an Int 22 (+6) he can keep 7 slots open from 1st through 5th. Talk about Utility Belt!!

Honestly, this is one of the reasons why I still prefer 4th Edition. Both the Wizard and Sorcerer are mechanically different and strive for different concepts yet are both equal and have a good reason for both being in the same party.


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I can't speak on the topic of warlocks; the class has never appealed to me (the whole pact thing is not my gig). Ditto for any other flavors of arcane casters.



I hear ya, the 3.5 Warlock is very....meh...to me in terms of flavor and mechanics. I actually prefer the Dragonfire Adept more, which is just a Dragon-flavored Warlock with a cool Breath Weapon effect instead of Eldritch Blast.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

189 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2018 :  01:21:01  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wizard, Sorcerers are more likely to have only utility or lesser spells vs the right spell for the right occasion. Wizards have Wands, Rods and Staves for utility and Scrolls. A Sorcerer with a wand of one of their spells is now even more redundant. Plus Wizards are able to make new spells one off or rare spells. A Sorcerer just can't do that.


Add in Spell Tattoo's and your Wizard is laughing.

Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 14 Jun 2018 01:22:38
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