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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 22:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I fear this whole "Telthaug is not human" thing may have been sparked by my whacky ideas for his champion. While I can readily see an half-orc, duergar, half-troll or whatever as the battle leader and strong-arm of the Banites of Mourktar I have to agree with Icelander that nothing that we know of Threskel or Mourktar suggest that Telthaug was anything other than human (maybe half-orc or half-elf, but that would be stretching it).
I definitely don't see him as having any draconic heritage due to how his 1370s dealings with Alasklerbanbastos and its servant dragons make no mention of his affinity to them or any difference between his treatment and that of the other human rulers.
Aye.
As for a champion, I'm inclined to think that the battle leader closest to Kabarrath Telthaug as he rose to lead the Black Lord's Cloak is either dead, retired or at least grown old enough to serve only in the capacity of supreme general, not field commander.
His current strong right hand is likely to be the most favoured of his battle captains in the tumultuous times between 1357-1369 DR, i.e. between the write-up of Mourktar in Old Empires and the write-up of the Black Lord's Cloak from Faiths and Avatars.
Someone in his mid-forties, I should imagine. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 22:54:56
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I hate the replying back to individual snippets which are replies back to other individual snippets because it turns the forum into unreadable stuff.
In essence, what you've said is you wouldn't want him to be a half-dragon or a half-fiend simply because you don't like it and it makes more sense to you. I submit that Kabbarrath Telthaug was a willing subject of Alasklerbanbastos, which can admittedly be for many reasons, but if he were a half-dragon of Alasklerbanbastos' brood it would make some sense. Him being a tiefling would also fit since they're considered somewhat common to the region. In fact, if he were say a child of Gilgeam's who refuses to worship Dad and has embraced an outside tyrant who may help him rise up and replace dad... (and Gilgeam may not acknowledge that he has this child because he's furious with him). Having him be human doesn't make him stand out or blend in any less than if he were one of these other options. It does however explain that rather strange ruling that Demzer pointed out of only allowing humans and half-elves by the current ruler who was possibly trying to prevent the Banites taking over by finding some hero to take his place after his death. King Theris may have fully expected the Banites to seize control, and this method was the one way he could think of to maybe prevent that happening (especially if its seen as being "divinely guided" by the people).
On the Banespear, absolutely.. Tchazzar may have split the item... he may have kept it whole too... what I will stress is that Tchazzar disappeared DURING a dracorage. I actually see Tchazzar as being afraid when he "ascended to godhood". Also, interestingly enough, during the same dracorage, the Cult of the Dragon's main Banite worshippers were descending down on nearby Peleveran and setting the Shaar ablaze. Tchazzar may have been desperate due to the dracorage, and I think it would be interesting to research who we BELIEVE raised him to godhood (Tiamat? Bane? Assuran? Someone else?). Maybe he used the banespear to slay a lesser manifestation of some sort and ascended in that way to demigod status. Heck, for all we know, maybe he had to "draw" the energy to obtain his divinity out of the banespear using a ritual and that involved breaking the weapon. Maldraedior may not even truly know the CURRENT potential of the item since he's only "heard" about the spear.
As a side note, it was also at this same time that Alasklerbanbastos was afraid of the dracorage as well and allowed himself to get turned into a dracolich by the Cult of the Dragon (though we don't know which faction Tuelhalva Drakewings and his power seekers OR Algashon and his Banites). However, it was a Cult of the Dragon Cell located in Mourktar that converted him, so IF Kabbarrath were a half-dragon or half-fiend in Mourktar at that time, he may have been involved with the Cult of the Dragon as a Banite priest. He may have even been involved with the ritual that converted Alasklerbanbastos (with maybe Algashon converting Alasklerbanbastos as the leader of the ritual).
On the idea of him becoming a dracolich or banelich or even a vampire of some sort, that's not absolutely necessary. I just threw that in there as an option. If he were simply a half-dragon, he may be the founder of the temple. Still, it also wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that he IS undead as well. He could even be hiding it. The Mulan people for instance are naturally pale, so if he had some magical way to walk in sunlight... I could easily see him being a vampire given how the cloak drinks blood. The main thing though just revolves around "he may have been the first and only leader of the temple".
As to why Kabbarrath Telthaug hasn't sought to extend his power to the Banites in Mulmaster. Honestly that's WAY outside his wheelhouse. As a rough comparison to our world, this is like the distance between New Orleans and the middle of Montana at the top of the country. I can honestly tell you, I live near New Orleans, and I could care less what's happening in Montana for the most part. I'd be more concerned with what's happening in Mississippi. He's got enough on his plate helping keep Threskel free from Unther. I have no problem seeing him keeping himself separate from the backstabbing politics of Mulmaster and Zhentil Keep, especially if in turn they keep their noses out of his neck of the woods.
On the part about the church only growing big relatively recently, I'd imagine that after Threskel freed itself from Unther, they likely wouldn't have embraced Bane's faith. Maybe sometime in the last half century or so Kabbarrath and/or the church of Bane did something to really EARN the favour of the people of Mourktar. Maybe he sponsored pirates that sniped on Untheric shipping. Maybe he fended off some major threat and showed King Theris to be a weak leader.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 23:47:46
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Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug's heritage
I don't think it's possible to state that dragonic, deific or demonic heritage wouldn't stand out more than human heritage in Mourktar. That seems like a very strange view. Tieflings are more common in Unther than in some other places in the Realms, but that just means that they are vanishingly rare there and all but unknown elsewhere.
Also, there is absolutely no evidence that individuals of less than human heritage are accepted as respectable people within human society, whether in Mourktar or elsewhere in the Old Empires. Exotic monsters may be featured as gladiators and their spawn may survive hooded or otherwise disguised among rogues, thieves and murderers in the worst slums and they might forge a following among bandits in the wilderness, but that doesn't mean that they are acknowledged among the established noble families.
Waterdeep, Sembia or Cormyr are generally not considered places unduly obsessed with pure-blood heritage, but even there, a drop of half-elven blood is a dark secret in a noble family. The Old Empires make a fetish of pure-blood Mulan heritage; their cultures are a lot more exclusionary than is typical in the Realms. Why would anyone think that being a tiefling, half-dragon or otherwise of mixed bloodline would be socially acceptable anywhere in the Old Empires?
I think that in the absence of evidence of anything else, we should assume that Kabarrath Telthaug is a member of the majority race in his society, i.e. Mulan of Untheri heritage.
Acknowledging the Great Bone Wyrm as suzerain of Old Unther
I think that the Dread Imperceptor's modus vivendi with the Great Bone Wyrm is not evidence of dragonic heritage, any more than King Hercubes Jedea of Mordulkin has dragonic heritage. It was a simple calculation of political interest.
The fact is that no one in Threskel or anywhere else can stand against Alasklerbanbastos if he were determined to destroy them. It is also a fact, however, that even as a dracolich, Alasklerbanbastos will spend most of his existence slumbering and that even while he is awake, he cannot rule directly over all the lands of Old Unther or even any significant part of it.
Thus, acknowledging the suzerainty of the Dragon-King of Old Unther probably costs the Regent of Mourktar very little in terms of actual authority, while it gains him the allegiance of a number of dragons, which allows him to project power much more effectively than he could with an infantry army. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 00:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I fear this whole "Telthaug is not human" thing may have been sparked by my whacky ideas for his champion. While I can readily see an half-orc, duergar, half-troll or whatever as the battle leader and strong-arm of the Banites of Mourktar I have to agree with Icelander that nothing that we know of Threskel or Mourktar suggest that Telthaug was anything other than human (maybe half-orc or half-elf, but that would be stretching it).
I definitely don't see him as having any draconic heritage due to how his 1370s dealings with Alasklerbanbastos and its servant dragons make no mention of his affinity to them or any difference between his treatment and that of the other human rulers.
Oh, I'll point out, I'm not pushing for either way. I'm just pushing against the "it can't be that way" statements. There's a world of possibilities. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 00:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Old Grey Box
General guidelines on naming
are as follows.
Common Humanity. The greater bulk
of humanity takes a single name, such
as "Doust" or "Mourngrym", with a secondary
name added if there is confusion,
either from profession ("Doust the
Fighter"), location ("Doust of Shadowdale
"), or lineage (the latter in particular
if some legendary figure was in the
family line, such as "Doust, Grandson of
Miniber the Sage").
[...]
Human Nobles and Gentry. These
individuals tend to retain the "family
name", a name usually derived from the
individual who established the family's
fame, position, or prowess. Such names
are retained even after the nobility has
fallen from grace or power.
Surnames are certainly possessed by many individuals in the Realms currently not in a position of power or influence, but using a surname is generally a claim to gentility.
Also, farmers who own their own land, i.e. yeomen, are very close to gentility already. Common folk are those who work the land of others.
And yet at the same time, how many references can we find that refute exactly that claim, where there's someone who DOES have a last name and yet they were a farmer or something. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 00:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Old Grey Box
General guidelines on naming
are as follows.
Common Humanity. The greater bulk
of humanity takes a single name, such
as "Doust" or "Mourngrym", with a secondary
name added if there is confusion,
either from profession ("Doust the
Fighter"), location ("Doust of Shadowdale
"), or lineage (the latter in particular
if some legendary figure was in the
family line, such as "Doust, Grandson of
Miniber the Sage").
[...]
Human Nobles and Gentry. These
individuals tend to retain the "family
name", a name usually derived from the
individual who established the family's
fame, position, or prowess. Such names
are retained even after the nobility has
fallen from grace or power.
Surnames are certainly possessed by many individuals in the Realms currently not in a position of power or influence, but using a surname is generally a claim to gentility.
Also, farmers who own their own land, i.e. yeomen, are very close to gentility already. Common folk are those who work the land of others.
And yet at the same time, how many references can we find that refute exactly that claim, where there's someone who DOES have a last name and yet they were a farmer or something. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 09:33:21
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Yeah, sorry for the confusion with the multiple quoting, I'll go with sort of bullet points and maybe it's more readable.
Surnames:
I see the rule that you reported, Icelander, as more of an aid for DMs than anything else (as in "you don't have to create a surname for everyone"), but seeing as in the published Realms we have an awful lot of people with surnames that have no ties whatsoever with nobility or want to have any (druids claiming gentility?), then the assumption that having a surname makes you a noble is incorrect or at least is not a reliable way of determining the fortunes of someone (as in, it's a necessary but not sufficient condition).
For priests and other religious people I can even see some renouncing their surnames and substituting that for "of Bane/Ilmater/Cthulhu" as a sign of fervent adoration and submission to their role in the church as opposed to their secular lives.
In the specific cases of Fzoul and the High Imperceptor we have no report (at least that I know of) of anyone else sharing their surname and no statement that they were nobles. Seeing how the "True History" section of Ruins of Zhentil Keep was written I believe that if Fzoul was of noble blood and of an ancient and respected Zhentish family it would have been stated much as it is for Manshoon and other Lords seen in a good light by Zhentish-propaganda that composed that timeline.
Regarding the yeomen comment, that's how it worked in feudal Europe, not in Cormyr where any farmer, craftmen or merchant is a commoner (thus not entitled a surname by the rule, and yet ...). This is why I always caution against too deep analogies between the Realms and the real world, it's too easy to be carried away into incorrect assumptions.
High Imperceptor's office:
Fair enough, it's clear that "recognizes" doesn't imply a direct choice but more the approval of one. Although given the record of the first seven High Imperceptors I would be hesitant to say that choosing a puppet was the common way of resolving the issue among the Banites, maybe Szchulan was an exception, but that's just my feeling colored by my personal taste.
Telthaug's ancestry:
Honestly it's just the draconic heritage that doesn't work for me, I don't see any need to relate him to the nobility of the region so the human part may freely fall by the wayside. Yet he rose to a position of great power in the church of a human god so I would not go with any race that has it's own established pantheon. Half-human could work perfectly but I don't see him being half-orc due to their short-lifespan (back to this in a moment), he could be a tiefling (or aasimar) or half-fiendish (more from the more human-like fiends, like incubi, succubi or erynies), he could be a descendant of the line of any Untheric old god (I would avid Gilgeam for his paranoia regarding potential rivals but I can see an offshoot of a family of descendants of Druaga or Nergal establishing themselves in secret in barren Threskel and a scion of the family rosing to fame using his augmented powers). Also divine and extraplanar lineage don't exclude each other, we know the gods can be naughty too.
Regarding his lifespan I would say that I see no reason why he couldn't have extended it, maybe even using the powers of the Black Cloak (if it has some vampiric like power of sucking life of victims and transfering it to an appointed possessor). I have this nagging feeling that the Black Cloak as some relation with the nearby Citadel of the Fiendish Slayer in the Underdark, a place on which I could find almost no information. But it's just a feeling.
The Banespear and Tchazzar:
I was unaware of the Banespear, I need to think on it a bit further to offer anything. I admit that later events and his trashing of Unther make me storngly lean on Tiamat sponsoring his godhood (probably even foreseeing him as a possible backup plan that she actually used in the Time of Troubles). Regarding the involvement of the Cult of the Dragon in the region I admit that I never put too much thought on it but I can readily see how the Banite presence in Threskel may have started as merely a Cult of the Dragon cell (going after the hints of draconic presence due to the history of Tiamat/Bahamuth in the region) around the 1000s and evolved from that to the temple we know. With Telthaug being a scion of fiendish/divine bloodline finding in the church of Bane the chance to rise in society that was not given him by the heavily Assurite-dominated upper classes of Mourktar.
Telthaug disinterest in Mulmaster:
Exactly what I was saying. The fact that Telthaug did his own thing in Mourktar had no bearing on the general situation of he Banites church because he is far removed and in the middle of contested territory (pantheon-wise). So at worst the High Imperceptor could ignore him and at best he could claim his indipendence was bestowed to give him a free hand in expanding the church of Bane in new territories (the Old Empires).
Recent growth of the Banites of Mourktar:
I too see the Banites as having grown only recently (1340s-1350s), probably with breakthroughs during the waning years of King Theris rule. If Telthaug started to build his military power when the King was growing weak I can see him gaining a lot of traction with the populace with the Banites troops winning battles and skirmishes with Chessentan cities and Unther (while the regular army of Mourktar, having to defend the city could not muster enough manpower to invade the surrounding territories, the Banites could be totally devoted to be an offensive force). This would have quickly boosted the power and influence of the Banites and led to their eventual takeover. |
Edited by - Demzer on 10 Aug 2018 09:36:12 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 13:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug's heritage
I don't think it's possible to state that dragonic, deific or demonic heritage wouldn't stand out more than human heritage in Mourktar. That seems like a very strange view. Tieflings are more common in Unther than in some other places in the Realms, but that just means that they are vanishingly rare there and all but unknown elsewhere.
Also, there is absolutely no evidence that individuals of less than human heritage are accepted as respectable people within human society, whether in Mourktar or elsewhere in the Old Empires. Exotic monsters may be featured as gladiators and their spawn may survive hooded or otherwise disguised among rogues, thieves and murderers in the worst slums and they might forge a following among bandits in the wilderness, but that doesn't mean that they are acknowledged among the established noble families.
Waterdeep, Sembia or Cormyr are generally not considered places unduly obsessed with pure-blood heritage, but even there, a drop of half-elven blood is a dark secret in a noble family. The Old Empires make a fetish of pure-blood Mulan heritage; their cultures are a lot more exclusionary than is typical in the Realms. Why would anyone think that being a tiefling, half-dragon or otherwise of mixed bloodline would be socially acceptable anywhere in the Old Empires?
I think that in the absence of evidence of anything else, we should assume that Kabarrath Telthaug is a member of the majority race in his society, i.e. Mulan of Untheri heritage.
Acknowledging the Great Bone Wyrm as suzerain of Old Unther
I think that the Dread Imperceptor's modus vivendi with the Great Bone Wyrm is not evidence of dragonic heritage, any more than King Hercubes Jedea of Mordulkin has dragonic heritage. It was a simple calculation of political interest.
The fact is that no one in Threskel or anywhere else can stand against Alasklerbanbastos if he were determined to destroy them. It is also a fact, however, that even as a dracolich, Alasklerbanbastos will spend most of his existence slumbering and that even while he is awake, he cannot rule directly over all the lands of Old Unther or even any significant part of it.
Thus, acknowledging the suzerainty of the Dragon-King of Old Unther probably costs the Regent of Mourktar very little in terms of actual authority, while it gains him the allegiance of a number of dragons, which allows him to project power much more effectively than he could with an infantry army.
This I can agree with. Yes, there is nothing to suggest that he is of another race. There are things in either direction that could be worked to make them feasible for any of these ethnicities.
On the part about the race being unacceptable for the region, one thing to bear in mind is that not all tieflings or half dragons are immediately apparent, and magic can be used to conceal things from people on a mass scale. After all, how long did the majority of the people of Thay believe that Szass Tam was still alive?
For me, its about what can we do with the story of it. I had two main reasons to consider other races. They were to
A) fit the reason why the Banites didn't enter the contest in the odd loophole Demzer brought up. I don't buy the idea that their champion wouldn't work, because Kabbarrath probably has access to other possible claimants he could have tried to use. I do buy that HE couldn't work, and no one wanted to dare cross him from within the church. He doesn't seem to be the type of Banite Tyrant who is into propping up another Tyrant... he seems to be the type to want the power himself.
and
B) I figured if he'd been the one to start the temple and grow it over say 350 years, that might be why its been wildly successfully gathering claimants (i.e. their grandfathers know him and perhaps he has periodically helped protect Mourktar from Gilgeam's forces advances). Based on the statements about Alasklerbanbastos getting changed by a group of Cult of the Dragon cultists located in Mourktar, I get the feel that the Banites were down here as Cult of the Dragon members. This makes me think as well that the church in Mourktar may have had dracolich allies (lesser ones mind you) that it kept relatively nearby... and oddly enough, perhaps dracoliches have in the past defended Mourktar from Untheric forces. I could also see dracoliches and pirates allied with dragon cultists being a problem for shipping in the area, targeting specifically traffic enriching area outside Threskel.
I'll also note, he doesn't have to be another race to have founded the temple. He COULD be some kind of undead instead OR perhaps he's somehow tied to the Dark Lord's Cloak such that when it drains the life from someone by drinking their blood, it can create something akin to a potion or effect that stops aging. Anyway, its all just options to consider. If he's truly the leader of the largest temple of Bane in the world, I would kind of expect the guy to be somehow different... whether its that he's changed himself to gain power, or he inherently held it and was thus able to survive and advance. We already have several entirely human Banite leaders (Fzoul Chembryl, Teldorn Darkhope, the church in Mulmaster, etc...), so having a few that are a little different mold might be worth looking at.
One thing I do see him mad about though is that Alasklerbanbastos has allied himself with his traditional enemy, the Church of Tiamat. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 13:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Yeah, sorry for the confusion with the multiple quoting, I'll go with sort of bullet points and maybe it's more readable.
Telthaug's ancestry:
Honestly it's just the draconic heritage that doesn't work for me, I don't see any need to relate him to the nobility of the region so the human part may freely fall by the wayside. Yet he rose to a position of great power in the church of a human god so I would not go with any race that has it's own established pantheon. Half-human could work perfectly but I don't see him being half-orc due to their short-lifespan (back to this in a moment), he could be a tiefling (or aasimar) or half-fiendish (more from the more human-like fiends, like incubi, succubi or erynies), he could be a descendant of the line of any Untheric old god (I would avid Gilgeam for his paranoia regarding potential rivals but I can see an offshoot of a family of descendants of Druaga or Nergal establishing themselves in secret in barren Threskel and a scion of the family rosing to fame using his augmented powers). Also divine and extraplanar lineage don't exclude each other, we know the gods can be naughty too.
Regarding his lifespan I would say that I see no reason why he couldn't have extended it, maybe even using the powers of the Black Cloak (if it has some vampiric like power of sucking life of victims and transfering it to an appointed possessor). I have this nagging feeling that the Black Cloak as some relation with the nearby Citadel of the Fiendish Slayer in the Underdark, a place on which I could find almost no information. But it's just a feeling.
The Banespear and Tchazzar:
I was unaware of the Banespear, I need to think on it a bit further to offer anything. I admit that later events and his trashing of Unther make me storngly lean on Tiamat sponsoring his godhood (probably even foreseeing him as a possible backup plan that she actually used in the Time of Troubles). Regarding the involvement of the Cult of the Dragon in the region I admit that I never put too much thought on it but I can readily see how the Banite presence in Threskel may have started as merely a Cult of the Dragon cell (going after the hints of draconic presence due to the history of Tiamat/Bahamuth in the region) around the 1000s and evolved from that to the temple we know. With Telthaug being a scion of fiendish/divine bloodline finding in the church of Bane the chance to rise in society that was not given him by the heavily Assurite-dominated upper classes of Mourktar.
Kind of funny... we both hit on the idea that the blood sucking cloak may be keeping him young.
Yeah, not stuck on half-dragon... though it could make sense if the banites down at the time were cult of the dragon members. I can see half-dragons being part of the cult, and if the cult at that time were primarily Banites, the a half-dragon Banite priest makes sense.... However, I'm just as happy with the idea of some kind of fiend blood. In fact, I really do like the idea of an alu-fiend and one of the local manifestations OR even one of the god-kings. If Assuran were a manifestation, it might or might not be really interesting if his child birthed on either a human or a devil/succubus/alu-fiend turned to Bane. He might consider it an odd form of justice that his neglectful father not reap the benefits of his worship, and he might specifically be targeting de-powering his "father" by lessening the church of Assuran.
On Tiamat raising Tchazzar, I only just recently realized... that may not have been possible in 1018 DR. She only recently returned to Faerun in the 1346 or thereabouts according to some sources. However, I also see a GHotR entry that has her cultists in Surkh in 971 DR. So I actually think it IS still possible, but just throwing it out for research reasons (it seems that Tiamat held a swathe going from Unther to the Vilhon).
962 DR Year of the Shandon Veil
The Cult of the Dragon [950, 971] reaches farther south than ever before with the creation of a cell in, around, and beneath the city of Hlondeth in the Vilhon Reach.
971 DR Year of the Children
The Cult of the Dragon’s [962, 972] further expansion in the south is halted by the church of Tiamat when an underground Cult cell “trespasses” on a similar group worshiping the Dragon Queen in the city of Surkh.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Aug 2018 13:41:14 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 23:59:36
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The appeal of Bane's teachings to the nobility
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I couldn't find any explicit mention of Fzoul's noble lineage, he was always cited as a member of the church of Bane and his accession to Lordship was through his raising in the ranks of the church and through his allegiance to Manshoon.
It's always been established that Fzoul Chembryl was born noble, although, obviously, he has never been content with merely the comparatively minor wealth and position that were his birthright.
quote:
Originally posted by Villain's Lorebook p. 26
Fzoul is the only child of a minor noble
house of Zhentil Keep. He entered the priesthood of
Bane at an early age, using his skill as an administrator
to ascend the ranks of the church's hierarchy.
In general, the God of Tyranny appeals a lot more to people born into positions of authority and power than it does to people born into subordinate positions. It is also, as I mentioned several times, generally easier to amass power if you start by picking your parents carefully, so you start out with wealth, position and connections.
As far as I can tell, whenever we have information about the family background of priests of Bane, they are either born into the upper classes of the gentry or the true nobility, or they are raised within the church, in itself a background of wealth and privilege compared to the life of most people in a pre-industrial society.
It is, of course, entirely possible for an unusual person to grow up as a member of the disenfranchised majority, the poor and powerless masses, and yet not only come to embrace the doctrine of the Ultimate Tyrant, but actually manage to rise high in Bane's service. It's just that such a background seems to me more likely to be the exception than the rule.
Given that there is a significant benefit to inheriting wealth, connections and position even in our modern, enlightened, allegedly just society, I'd hesitate to posit a fictional church devoted to the ideals of tyranny, based in societies with deep-seated class prejudice, where nepotism has still somehow been completely eradicated and the scions of privilege have no benefits over anyone else.
I don't like Utopias in gaming or fiction, given that injustice and conflict is generally what drives the motivations and adventures of interesting characters, and I see even less need for Utopian ideals to hold sway in societies and sub-cultures that are explicitly identified as being 'evil' in the setting.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely like to feature morally ambiguous characters and belief systems, ostensibly 'Good' characters or societies with ideas that offend most modern people as well as ostensibly 'Evil' ones with logically consistent philosophical justifications and more honourable behaviour than many 'Good' ones. I just don't think the Church of Bane is the right fit for a doctrine of universal egalitarianism, equality of all races and bloodlines, and the rejection of the pervasive classism that defines most societies in the Realms.
The Church of Cyric, now... |
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Edited by - Icelander on 11 Aug 2018 00:00:06 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 02:34:07
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Mourktar and the Old Empires value of the purity of blood
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
A) fit the reason why the Banites didn't enter the contest in the odd loophole Demzer brought up.
I don't really see the tournament being open only to humans and half-elves only being an 'odd loophole'. I see it as being a fairly typical example of the emphasis of bloodline purity in the Old Empires.
If anything is odd about it, it's the unusual liberalism indicated by the acceptance of half-elves as potential rulers, something which would be controversial in such 'goodly' realms as Waterdeep, Cormyr or Sembia. Of course, the lack of any stipulation for noble blood, pure Untheri heritage and freedom from the taint any non-human blood may have been contributing factors to most of the established interests in Mourktar considering King Theris' plan insanity of the first order.
I guess King Theris really liked elves, for some reason, or at least considered part-elven heritage less shameful than other mixed bloodlines. And he was open to a ruler of foreign blood, the descendant of slaves or any number of other unthinkable options, which the guilds in Mourktar did not agree with, but given King Theris' support with the army, decided to accept for the time being and simply replace any unsuitable leader later, after King Theris' death.
In general, Realmsian societies are not egalitarian in the least and characters who do not care about bloodlines, ancestors and social class are regarded as fringe lunatics, not reasonable voices of progress. Adventurers may defy societal norms, but it's important to recognise that adventurers are usually regarded as a morally suspect, dangerous class of rogues, murderers and lawbreakers who reject the values of civilised society.
The norm in Faerun (and most other places on Toril) is that people are born into a social class and that no matter what deeds someone performs, wealth they amass or power they gather, those who are born noble are still better in an important way.
Social classes and even values are not static across Faerun, of course, and the new merchant nobility of many city-states is very different from older, land-owning nobility, but the philosophical concepts of equality, egalitarianism or any kind of equal innate value of all sapient beings... just don't have much of a following.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We already have several entirely human Banite leaders (Fzoul Chembryl, Teldorn Darkhope, the church in Mulmaster, etc...), so having a few that are a little different mold might be worth looking at.
Even if we were to assume perfect equality and no hint of prejudice among Banites, just going by normal demographics means that we ought to have at least nineteen entirely human leaders of the church before entertaining the idea of anyone of an exotic race.
Lack of Assuran and Banite competitors in the tournament
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't buy the idea that their champion wouldn't work, because Kabbarrath probably has access to other possible claimants he could have tried to use. I do buy that HE couldn't work, and no one wanted to dare cross him from within the church.
King Theris was a sincere worshipper of Assuran. The year after the tournament, King Hippartes, acting as the possessed avatar of Assuran/Hoar, marched with a Chessentan army against Ramman, passing Mourktar on the way. As he obviously didn't sack the city prior to his victory over Ramman, it seems pretty plausible that Mourktar provided troops for his army and thus implicitly recognised his authority.
It is clear that King Theris had the theoretical power to select an heir who was a loyal servant of Assuran. It is equally clear that King-Hippartes-as-Assuran would have been able to rely on at least some support from those Mourktari who were worshippers of Assuran if he chose to demand that he be crowned King of Mourktar after the failed tournament.
Yet King Theris did not select an heir who was a loyal servant of Assuran and, however it happened, King-Hippartes-as-Assuran did not ascend to the throne of Mourktar. Neither did he leave anyone behind to rule in his name.
To me, this and the lack of evidence for a civil war in Mourktar after the tournament suggests that the Church of Assuran in Mourktar accepted that the ruler should not be one of their number. The priests of the Amphitheatre of the First Thunder were content to support King Theris in his choice, in governing the city and in administering the tournament.
There is no mention of the Black Lord's Cloak or Kabarrath Telthaug in Old Empires, probably because when Old Empires was written, Scott Bennie had no idea that Mourktar was supposed to be dominated by the largest temple of Bane in the Realms, but the most reasonable way to fit the Banites into the backstory seems to me to assume that the priests of the Black Lord's Cloak acted more or less in concert with those of Assuran and were content to form the second pillar of support for the King, while he lived.
So, neither faith had a champion in the tournament as either explicit rules or an implicit gentleman's agreement between the faiths provided that the priests should act as impartial judges and no champion should come from their clergy or the ranks of lay worshippers in the city. That seems to me a good way to prevent maneuvering for power from developing into civil war between the two strongest religious power bases in Mourktar after King Theris' death.
Kabarrath Telthaug and wanting power for himself
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
He doesn't seem to be the type of Banite Tyrant who is into propping up another Tyrant... he seems to be the type to want the power himself.
What evidence is there that Kabarrath Telthaug pursues personal power instead of following the older Banite dogma of supporting tyrants?
The older we make him, the longer the period where Kabarrath Telthaug did not rule Mourktar, did not conquer any other part of the Realms and did not seek (or at least did not succeed in attaining) the office of High Imperceptor, even while the High Imperceptor of the 1340s and 1350s was a weak, indecisive man.
Remember also that King Theris and his tiny professional army of 500 men, supported by at most 2,000 militia at need (an unknown number of whom would have been Bane worshippers), was probably not able to retain power in Mourktar during his reign without the active support of Kabarrath Telthaug and the priests of the Black Lord's Cloak.
Certainly the temple could have had a decent chance of seizing power in Mourktar even before his death, assuming that before the Time of Troubles it had even a quarter of the numbers and powers it had in 1369 DR. Yet Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug did not try to seize power and does not seem to have come to rule Mourktar until after King Theris' attempt to select an heir had already failed.
Kabarrath Telthaug seems to have loyally supported King Theris and made no attempt to seize power in Mourktar while Theris lived. After the tournament, it is true that the master of the Black Lord's Cloak eventually came to rule in Mourktar, but that might just have been because of the utter absence of any other competent candidate for tyrant for him to support.
Notice that as soon as the Great Bone Wyrm makes a claim for rulership over the area, Kabarrath Telthaug accepts his suzerainty without any apparent rancour. This was, of course, sensible of him, but it was more in line with Bane's old teachings of supporting the most gifted tyrants his priests could find than the more new-fangled ways of his priests trying to rule personally.
My interpretation of Kabarrath Telthaug is that he is a rational, practical man who believes sincerely and selflessly that the best form of government is the tyranny of the strong over the weak and who has devoted his life to educating, supporting and serving those he considers best suited to rule over others.
Threskel is a harsh land of many dragons and few people, with the herdsmen and fishermen who live there constantly under threat from bandits, beasts and dragons. It's not hard to understand how someone who grew up there would embrace the idea of a strong leader who could protect the people, at the cost of suppressing all individual freedoms as potential sources of division.
No matter how old Kabarrath Telthaug is, his education and experience will be heavily coloured by either stories or personal experience of the tyranny of Gilgeam and Tchazzar. It is plausible that Kabarrath was struck by how much more successful and happy both Chessenta and Unther were under harsh, but active governance, than they are under centuries of neglect, squabbling local governors or rulers and generally ruinous lack of government.
Is it so hard to believe that the Hidden Tyrant of Mourktar has nothing but the best motives for supporting King Theris and the Great Bone Wyrm?
He's just trying to serve his people and his faith. 
Cult of the Dragon and the Old Empires
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Based on the statements about Alasklerbanbastos getting changed by a group of Cult of the Dragon cultists located in Mourktar, I get the feel that the Banites were down here as Cult of the Dragon members.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I do see him mad about though is that Alasklerbanbastos has allied himself with his traditional enemy, the Church of Tiamat.
In Mourktar, the Cult of the Dragon has long existed as a secret society within the Black Lord's Cloak. Not everyone who worshipped Bane also belonged to the Cult of the Dragon and not everyone in the area who supported the Cult of the Dragon served Bane, but there was a significant overlap of membership. It's not implausible that this state of affairs might have existed in other Banite churches in the region as well.
In Unther, the Cult of the Dragon and the Tiamat cult have been enemies and allies at different times. While there have been bloody conflicts between the two, there also exists a heresy within the Tiamatan faith of the Undying Queen, a dracolich version of Tiamat, and servants of the Undying Queen form a Cult of the Dragon secret society within the secret society of the Tiamat cultists in Unther.
Basically, there is copious religious strife among the Cult of the Dragon and the faiths of both Bane and Tiamat in the region of the Old Empires. Multi-layered conspiracies and secret societies within secret societies are the rules, rather than the exception.
A priest of Bane might well ally with a priest of Tiamat against another priest of Bane, assuming that they belonged to different factions of the Cult of the Dragon. And as for those servants of Bane who do not belong to the Cult of the Dragon, they might at different times regard the Cult as a useful tool, as a harmless social club within the temple or as a heresy to be rooted out with torture and executions.
In general, Banite priests probably regard the cultists of the Nemesis of the Gods in Unther as misguided and servants of a deity that must either bow down to Bane or die screaming. Yet political realities mean that they will gravitate toward allegiances with these cultists as long as there are more urgent foes to worry about, such as Gilgeam in the past and the Mulhorandi in the present. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 14:26:34
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modern, enlightened, allegedly just society...
I know its odd, but you don't know how much that made me smile. I don't want to get down in the weeds on it, so as not to offend folks, but sometimes I just shake my head when I hear some of the people spouting off what needs to be done. The personal guilt that the majority of this country feels over certain groups who have become overprivileged themselves much more than those they complain against... and most of them don't even seem to realize it because they're too busy complaining while slacking off and expecting others to pave their way. Anyway, please forgive the aside. I know this place can get antagonistic at times, and its good to feel that "we're the same but different" feeling. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 14:33:40
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| Wait, the Undying Queen is a heresy? I thought it was an attempt to annoy Falazure, given that Tiamat's Undying Queen form appears in P&P. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 15:08:47
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Just responding to some of the above without quotes
Yes, I too find it very odd that King Theris was opening up his kingship to anyone (slave, other race of human, noble from another city, possible evil entity, even Mulhorand and Unther), and at the time it was written, other options didn't exist like aasimar, genasi, etc... that would be just as palatable as a half-elf more than likely to the general populace. We know that Bane was officially dead as well when the largest church of his was placed down in Mourktar as he died during the ToT, and at the time of F&A's release he was still dead. So, that being said, the growth of said temple would have almost definitely been before the ToT. It could have been big for well over 300 years, or possibly its main growth only came in say the last 50. What this tells me is that Kabbarrath was probably already a threat to King Theris. It also tells me that King Theris probably foresaw that the Banites would take over if he couldn't find someone much more powerful than himself to replace him. In fact the Banite temple may have only grown so powerful because King Theris himself was a weak ruler. So, I'm basically seeing the whole tournament as King Theris' attempt to forestall his city being taken over by the Banites.
You are right that during the ToT, Assuran in the form of King Hippartes did probably come through, and at that time, probably all of the Banites were quiet little mice since they couldn't cast spells above 2nd level. In fact, they probably threw their support behind Assuran, seeing him as a Tyrant. However, after things were over, which was only a few months later, the Banites suddenly found themselves rudderless, for the word was Bane was dead. I half wonder if somehow the cloak itself wasn't making it possible for them to cast their spells. Hmmmm... though if THAT were true... maybe we DO have a reason for the growth of the temple AFTER the ToT… maybe it drew Banite worshippers from surrounding areas (possibly even Thay, which was busy in the area trying to prop up Messemprar).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2018 : 14:37:38
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Wait, the Undying Queen is a heresy? I thought it was an attempt to annoy Falazure, given that Tiamat's Undying Queen form appears in P&P.
It's obviously a heresy to cultists of Tiamat who worship her as the Dark Lady and the Queen of Chromatic Dragons.
Deities are generally a lot more relaxed about variations in worship and mythology than mortal priests are. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2018 : 16:24:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Wait, the Undying Queen is a heresy? I thought it was an attempt to annoy Falazure, given that Tiamat's Undying Queen form appears in P&P.
It's obviously a heresy to cultists of Tiamat who worship her as the Dark Lady and the Queen of Chromatic Dragons.
Deities are generally a lot more relaxed about variations in worship and mythology than mortal priests are.
Does it really qualify as a heresy, though? I imagine Tiamat's priests are only too happy to attempt to subvert the Cult of the Dragon from Falazure's Null aspect by worshiping her as a power of draconic undeath. Heresies would be closer to Lathander being Amaunator; something that's inherently irreconcilable with what the orthodox church teaches and what is already accepted of the power in question, while Tiamat being the Undying Queen doesn't really diminish her aspect as the Dark Queen of Dragons. Likewise, Tiamat being the Grandmother of All, Bride of Apsu and Queen of Salt Water isn't really anathema to her priesthood's acceptance of her being the Mistress of Evil Dragonkind. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2018 : 17:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Does it really qualify as a heresy, though? I imagine Tiamat's priests are only too happy to attempt to subvert the Cult of the Dragon from Falazure's Null aspect by worshiping her as a power of draconic undeath. Heresies would be closer to Lathander being Amaunator; something that's inherently irreconcilable with what the orthodox church teaches and what is already accepted of the power in question, while Tiamat being the Undying Queen doesn't really diminish her aspect as the Dark Queen of Dragons. Likewise, Tiamat being the Grandmother of All, Bride of Apsu and Queen of Salt Water isn't really anathema to her priesthood's acceptance of her being the Mistress of Evil Dragonkind.
I tend to view Lawful Evil priesthoods as pretty intolerant of any teachings that run contrary to their own, regardless of whether or not it would be theoretically possible for them to take a more enlightened attitude toward religious differences.
To take an example from my campaign, old engravings, hieroglyphs and petroglyphs from around the First Empire of Unther reveal that Nanna-Sin was worshipped under such names as Su'en, Suen, Nanna, Nannaru, Enzu, Asimbabbar, Ellame and many others, and variously held to be the brother or father of Samas/Shamash/Utu and Inanna/Ishtar, as well as the father of Girru/Nusku/Ghibil and Ramman/Haddu/Haddad, not to mention sometime father to Assuran and Marduk, and variously married to Selan, Selah, Elah, Lucha, Ki, Ningal or any number of local nature, moon or other goddesses.
The sources do not suggest that priests of the Lord of the Crescent Moon from different areas of Unther spent much time worrying about the blasphemies and heresies of their wayward fellow priests and their followers. But, then again, the priesthood of the One Who Brings Light to the Dark Places has rarely been overly concerned with prescribing the correct doctrine and behaviour for those who offer to the deity.
By contrast, priesthoods of deities more concerned with order, authority and tradition tend to be a lot more severe about the 'right' form of worship, the correct mythology and the proper tracing of divine relationships. Regional variations of worship still exist, but are far more likely to lead to schisms, inquisitions and armed religious strife than in faiths with more relaxed dogmas.
This is why individual priests and priestesses of Selune or other Chaotic gods can all have their own view on the nature of their deity and the proper way to worship, but within Lawful churches, like Bane's or Tiamat's, differences in dogma lead to schismatic conflicts between the Orthodox church and various different versions, regarded by the majority of the priesthood as heresies.
Both the Church of Bane and the Tiamat cult, in my campaign, are riven with religious strife and sectarian violence, with both personal rivalries and religious fanaticism contributing to the schismatic nature of the faiths. Granted, because both faiths are strongly authoritarian, these struggles are often carried out with political maneuvering, religious inquisitions and secret slayings, not open violence, and priests are often driven by circumstance to make common cause with factions of their faith whom they truly consider heretics (especially when outside threats are pressing). |
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Edited by - Icelander on 12 Aug 2018 17:16:47 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2018 : 00:07:17
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Exotic bloodlines in Old Empires
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, I too find it very odd that King Theris was opening up his kingship to anyone (slave, other race of human, noble from another city, possible evil entity, even Mulhorand and Unther), and at the time it was written, other options didn't exist like aasimar, genasi, etc... that would be just as palatable as a half-elf more than likely to the general populace.
People with planar heritage existed in the Realms before 3e, they were merely (properly) regarded as extremely rare, and had difficulty being accepted in human society.
It's often difficult to reconcile the older Realmslore we have, where humans were generally as narrow-minded, xenophobic and parochial as people have tended to be through most of history, with the 3e and later sources, where it seemed that every protagonist was of some new splat-book race, for new bonuses, and aside for these mechanical bonuses, races were simply a superficial re-skin that had no real effect on how society treated them, like in MMORPGs.
In what Realmslore we have that actually stops to consider culture and human behaviour, however, it's generally pretty clear that the humans of Toril are every bit as prejudiced, irrational, unreasonable and tribal as the humans of Earth.
I don't think that a half-elf or even a human of foreign birth would have been acceptable to the people of Mourktar as their ruler. Even those who were fanatically loyal to King Theris no doubt expected that the gods would choose a champion of impeccable blood and connections to win the tournament and become the new heir.
Beings descended from elementals or infernal beings are probably not regarded as even remotely human by most people. They're probably viewed as extraplanar monsters or demons by most people.
There is one kind of non-human that I imagine could be accepted as part of society in the Old Empires, though. If we were to term the remote descendants of incarnations of God-Kings 'aasimar' or 'tieflings', depending on the nature of the deity, I imagine that some part of the nobility of both Mulhorand and Unther would fit into those groups.
Of course, as they'd descend from completely human-looking incarnations, people wouldn't think of them as 'non-human' or belonging to different races at all. They'd not have horns, tails, vestigal wings or any other trace of non-human appearance, instead being more likely to be distinguished with exceptionally heroic stature, beauty and inborn gifts. They'd have divine heritage, which they'd no doubt consider made their bloodline all the more noble.
King Theris and the Banites
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What this tells me is that Kabbarrath was probably already a threat to King Theris. It also tells me that King Theris probably foresaw that the Banites would take over if he couldn't find someone much more powerful than himself to replace him. In fact the Banite temple may have only grown so powerful because King Theris himself was a weak ruler. So, I'm basically seeing the whole tournament as King Theris' attempt to forestall his city being taken over by the Banites.
I see absolutely no reason to assume that the Banites of the Black Lord's Cloak ever posed any kind of threat to King Theris or that he was in any way a weak king. King Theris ruled Mourktar without any kind of disturbance, so that it was noted as a 'quiet place' during his lifetime.
King Theris' rule seemed unchallenged until he died of old age, with complete control of Mourktar, even enough control so that he could force power groups there to accept a plan for the succession that they felt was literally insane. Indeed, the army of Mourktar was so fiercely loyal to him, personally, that he could afford to utterly ignore the opinion of the majority of the guildmembers who provided Mourktar's wealth. That tells me that King Theris was far from weak and that his position was not under any kind of threat from anyone.
Also, if King Theris had had the least fear of the priest of the Black Lord's Cloak seizing the throne, why would he hold an open tournament for the position of heir? If he believed that his successor needed help against a threat from inside the city, it would make much more sense to select a successor himself, adopt him and make the fiercely loyal army take oaths to serve him.
Indulging a religious prophecy to select a new heir doesn't seem like the action of someone desperate to retain power, it seems like an eccentricity that King Theris got away with because his rule was unchallenged, unquestioned and utterly secure. No doubt King Theris believed that the gods would empower a suitable heir to win the tournament, someone like him as a young man.
I think that King Theris did not want Mourktar to become a theocracy, neither of Bane nor of Assuran, his own god. He wanted a strong, warrior king, who'd be supported by the army and by the temples of Mourktar, as he himself had been for his entire life.
No doubt King Theris believed that whoever won the tournament would also have the qualities needed to defeat the sahuagin, perhaps because King Theris believed that great athletic feats were some kind of reflection of a person's strength of character. It seems like the sort of thing some people in Chessenta might believe, especially if their own legendary ancestors were also legendary athletes.
Attitude of Banites to King-Hippartes-as-Assuran
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You are right that during the ToT, Assuran in the form of King Hippartes did probably come through, and at that time, probably all of the Banites were quiet little mice since they couldn't cast spells above 2nd level. In fact, they probably threw their support behind Assuran, seeing him as a Tyrant.
I find it interesting to speculate how Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug, the priests under him and the city of Mourktar received King-Hippartes-as-Assuran.
I lean toward them having surrendered to him and provided troops, as that seems most plausible in the light of what happened afterwards, but I don't know how willingly they supported him and whether their assistance to his war against Ramman was the minimum they could get away with or if they threw their lot in with him wholeheartedly.
After all, at the time, no god who was not physically present within a mile was responding to the prayers of their worshippers. A lot of priests and lay worshippers found their faith challenged. With Bane silent and Assuran leading a great army at their gates, it must have been a temptation to regard Assuran as the true ultimate tyrant and Bane as a failed or overthrown one.
Bane's Death and the Black Lord's Cloak
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We know that Bane was officially dead as well when the largest church of his was placed down in Mourktar as he died during the ToT, and at the time of F&A's release he was still dead. So, that being said, the growth of said temple would have almost definitely been before the ToT. It could have been big for well over 300 years, or possibly its main growth only came in say the last 50.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, after things were over, which was only a few months later, the Banites suddenly found themselves rudderless, for the word was Bane was dead. I half wonder if somehow the cloak itself wasn't making it possible for them to cast their spells. Hmmmm... though if THAT were true... maybe we DO have a reason for the growth of the temple AFTER the ToT… maybe it drew Banite worshippers from surrounding areas (possibly even Thay, which was busy in the area trying to prop up Messemprar).
It's canon that the priests of Black Lord's Cloak never accepted Bane's death in the Time of Troubles and that they continued to receive spells in his name from 1358-1372 DR.
It's left up to the individual GM whether these spells came from some fragment of Bane still retaining divine power, if Cyric decided for reasons of his own to grant these particular priests spells in the name of Bane or if Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson, granted their spells in his father's name (no doubt hoping to either gradually convert the priests over to his worship or to gradually become Bane in truth, the latter of which might even have happened).
As the priests of the Black Lord's Cloak continued to call on Bane and receive spells in his name, it would not have been implausible for fervent and fanatical worshippers of Bane from all over the Realms to travel there and join the growing army of dark templars, wizards and priests. That provides ample justification for the forces of the temple having grown by leaps and bounds after 1358 DR, as a significant number of Banite priests and holy warriors must have found it difficult to accept a new god like Cyric. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2018 : 14:33:25
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Agreed, I see the "tieflings" and "aasimar" born of the Mulan manifestations as not manifesting the more angelic or diabolical signs that we're used to. They may possess some signs though that might stand out. I'm thinking things like sparkly skin, shining eyes, eye iris' of a strange color, odd colored hair, perhaps strange birthmarks that are equivalent to runes, etc... They might also possess unnatural charisma, strength, etc...
Also, yes, after having "walked this all back" like we have regarding the ToT, I like the idea that perhaps this temple did have a sudden increase ONLY after the ToT. Like you say, we don't need to detail the "why" (as in was it Xvim, was it the cloak, or even was it Gilgeam posing as Bane until Gilgeam died... all can be options... ). On the option of Bane and Gilgeam somehow being related, that would only be until Gilgeam's own death after the ToT, and at which point the colors of the temple changed to black and green.
As an aside to just throw out for perusal, I do find it interesting as well that Bane and Gilgeam's symbols are very similar (Gilgeam's being "a clenched red fixed backed by a golden sun on a black lozenge" and Bane's being "an upright black hand, palms and fingers together usually on a red field"). There is a part of me that wants to link the two somehow.... but not as in "Gilgeam IS Bane". I'm thinking something much more subtle, like Gilgeam had a child... that child is Bane... and he's vehemently denied ever having had children because of his shame. In fact, I kind of wouldn't be surprised if all the dark three had some small amount of divine blood in them from the get go, since Myrkul came from another culture with close ties to the Mulan, and I'm also of the mindset like you are that Bhaal originated in this general area. I'd also posit that there is SOME kind of tie between Nergal and Jergal, but I like George's idea that he's a spellweaver. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2018 : 15:25:00
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Hands seem to be a relatively common symbol for tyrant deities, so it's not really something particularly outstanding. Hextor's symbol is six arrows in a clenched fist, for example.
I think having the Dark Trinity born with divine blood diminishes them. They were effectively the best of the best, dark paladins and assassins and necromancers so mighty that one of the greatest of Faerun's dark powers took notice and believed them worthy of his many crowns. And they succeeded. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2018 : 18:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
So, neither faith had a champion in the tournament as either explicit rules or an implicit gentleman's agreement between the faiths provided that the priests should act as impartial judges and no champion should come from their clergy or the ranks of lay worshippers in the city.
The rest is sound enough, but the second part here does not seem possible IMO.
Same old reason:
quote:
(from Good Ol' Ed)
Please, everyone: ALWAYS remember that except for fanatics, clergy, or the oppressed [...], all intelligent beings in the Realms worship -- if only in appeasement -- many deities.
'Lay worshippers' does not refer merely to people who occasionally give thanks to a deity, make sacrifices in their name or pray to that deity. It specifically refers to those who devote themselves to service of that god and work, either full-time or at least a significant part of their tenday, for the temple of that god.
The way I'm using the term, the lay worshippers of a temple of Bane are everyone who live and work at the temple without being clergy, i.e. the temple guards, the armourers, the masons, the hostlers, the servants, etc.
There may be many other worshippers of Bane (and other gods) who visit the temple for occasional services or sacrifices, but are not considered to belong to it in the same sense as the lay worshippers who are sworn to the service of the temple, despite not being priests. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Threskel, Bane, and the Cult of the Dragon
