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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30284 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  09:52:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can support BadCatMan's proposal of a further timejump. I am not keen on that, but I can support that, because that idea includes everything that has gone before -- therefore accommodating all published canon and thus fans of any era. I even said it wasn't a dealbreaker for me.

But then it somehow became an issue whether or not people could fill in the lost century. And that's when tempers flared again -- when you argued against allowing that. So we were then back to my original problem: an era that could not be touched, which would leave out people who want to work in that era.

The only thing I want here, the only demand I will make, is that this project allows everyone to participate by not leaving out anything. Just as this forum welcomes any who like the Realms, regardless of their preferred era, I want your project to welcome everyone. Yes, there were always be people that don't like this thing or that thing. I just don't want to have anyone automatically shut out before they can offer anything.

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Jeff Strix
Seeker

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  10:50:12  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am here for few years, write not much but read many topics, regularly. Well it was clear to me - to have one collective opinion in this case is as good as impossible. Thats why I think the best way is not to rewrite the past, but make the future. And I also think - there's no need to jump too far in future, although I'm not completely against it, but it would be very hard to make "completely" new realms in 1600/1700/1800-s DR or further. So, as for me - 1540/1550 would be the best - in this case we will have well recognisible realms with sons/daughters of famous characters, places, countries etc., someone wrote about it already. I don't think that WotC will come to these DR-years in next few years (or maybe many years), probably they continue to ignore straight timeline, as they do now.

Edited by - Jeff Strix on 12 Jul 2017 10:51:23
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14156 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  16:09:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can we just write 'small bits' - stuff that can be 'Plug & Play', without worrying about when?

This is what I was planning to do anyway - I have a plethora (I love when I get to use that word!) of homebrew stuff strewn all over the place. I'd love to have one spot to dump it all. An Inn here (I actually have at least three 'waystops' - two are already written-up), a bridge there, a ruin somewhere else. All written within the existing framework, but also able to be detached from it.

For example, I have two different versions of my 'Hobgoblins in the Hordelands'. In my homebrew Realms (My Misbegotton Realms), the Hobgoblins were always there, and were always the Tuigan. I don't need to explain it (and yet, my planet - the Planet Arium - is still within the greater D&D universe, so the 'real' FR is still out there, somewhere). Then there is the other version, where I explain how one branch of the Taangan (the 3e umbrella term for ALL the tribes) - the Fankiang - were really Hobgoblins all along (they had some humans as part of their 'tribe', but the core group were Hobs). Post-3e, their power continued to grow, and they eventually launched a devastating assault on Kourmire, leveling the place and scattering the existing Tuigan. Now the 'new' Tuigan are the old Fankiang, and they've been spreading their control to the other tribes in the Wastes, and become a greater threat. They've also been interbreeding with humans (and others), creating superior 'hybrids'.

There is a group of Hobgoblins* in one of the 3e MM's that I was working towards for all of that, turning one old piece of lore (albeit a very large piece) into something else using the stuff from the MM's. Unfortunately, i have to run out the door right now, so i can't look that up. My point is, I have MY version, and then I have the more generic version of the same thing that can just be dropped into nearly anyone else's version. Maybe we can do something like that.


*EDIT
They were in 3e's MM5. I also had my 'Drummers' lore connected to them (also modular), and connected their history through some obscure references in the novels (and elsewhere) about 'Beastman tribes' in the northern areas, and also a preponderance of goblins in the Hordelands region (which makes quite a bit of sense, since I think that entire area was the ancient Fey's 'stomping grounds', and the fey have deep, primal connection to goblins).


The whole point is, as involved as all of that is/was, its in three separate (and separable) 'chunks', and could fit into any campaign, regardless of era/edition or 'canonocity'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2017 19:21:27
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2033 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  17:47:35  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In some ways, the "clean slate" approach makes sense because it gives us a blank canvas to work with. But we also run the risk of alienating people with this approach. 1) because some would want to work during the 4e era (or any previous era). 2) Even with a blank slate to work with, we all have different ideas of what we want the Realms to be. I know there would be the majority vote, and everyone would do their best to compromise, but feelings are bound to be hurt. By the same token, we can let that prevent us from doing something that could potentially be beneficial.

We could also doing something like what Markustay suggested, but I seem to remember that being the original purpose of the DMsGuild (though as I mentioned in my previous post, we could allow for a little more freedom of content). This would allow people to focus on any era/aspect they want.

Or, we could move the Realms forward with 5E-onwards. This is similar to the clean slate approach, but we wouldn't be skipping several hundred years, and would allow people to work the "current" Realms. Like the clean slate approach, there would have to be a consensus to ignore past inconsistencies and aspects of previous editions we didn't like. The biggest risk here of course is that, working with such a close timeframe to the current Realms, we run the risk of having our material overwritten by WotC.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Lhynard
Seeker

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  02:21:15  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The only thing that has kept me from becoming an active contributor is my personal lack of hardcore Wiki skills, and the fact that I have not really kept up with a lot of the canon changes post-4th Edition.

My concern has always been posting a stubby article that features out-of-date canon information.


1. We are totally happy with stubs, provided you A) aren't plagiarizing, B) provide your source(s), and C) make some effort to write coherently. (You clearly have no issues with writing.)
2. It's not really possible to have "out-of-date canon" on the FRW, if you provide a source, (which we require). If it was retconned or altered, someone else who knows a later edition will simply clarify the statement and provide an additional source.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5955 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  19:09:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I realised a few years back, likely more than a few years, that creating in a shared world is hard work. If you want to conform to "what has gone before", the process always involved bending and re-casting your great ideas to fit the framework. Coupled with that was the issue of copying (consciously or unconsciously) the work of others. In my favored areas of interest (the Unapproachable East, history of the Realms in general and just lately, languages of the Realms) I realised that I had a singular vision of what I thought was "right" and what "fit". Naturally, that wasn't the case at all, but sometimes if you get in first, your idea/voice carries the day. I've been very fortunate in that regard because for many of my ideas I managed to "get in first". But my first ever big FR project regarding the Fallen Kingdom (which ultimately culminated in my North Timeline) showed me just how hard it can be when you are trying to collaborate on a project and there are differences in approach, ideas and ... what was "right". Since that time, I've pretty much been a one man band of FR output save for a few collaborations with Eric Boyd who, thankfully, I was almost always on the same wavelength with. Projects like this are extremely difficult to pull off given the creative input required. It's like getting 10 people to start painting the Sistine Chapel from all around the edges moving inwards. The result could be awesome, but chances are it won't. That's not to say that endeavours of this type can't succeed, but in my view they require significant focus and to operate on a much smaller scale. As I read this thread, all I could see in my head was the invasion of Russia. Starting out narrow and then rapidly expanding in scope until ... disaster. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the lofty goal of re-writing the entire setting is unachievable from a group of well-meaning amateurs, living normal lives with families, jobs, other commitments etc and who are essentially strangers. And if you want my advice, for what that's worth, start small. Pick a topic. Gods, magic, the Weave, the history of cosmetics in Impiltur (oops, sorry that's already been done) and focus on that and get it done. Then move onto something else. Incremental results are the most achievable in this type of a project. Grognard out.

-- George Krashos



Agreed. I started out wanting to "redo Thay to fix it", because I quite frankly used to have a love of the place years ago (a love which has softened with time). Then I realized.... its broken... it will never be the same, and whatever you do won't be accepted. So then I decided to do my United Tharchs and just basically build small sections off in the nooks and crannies of the realms that accomplish the same goal, but with some different spins. That has grown and my life responsibilities are getting in the way.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

255 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  19:30:03  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted "No" on the initial poll after reading through everything, because my sentiments regarding this subject are similar to Wooly's & Markustay's...

No matter what my personal judgments on any part of the established canon, I think we should build on it, not exclude it...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2041 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  03:49:39  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
why do we jsut exclude it all and make our own setting... and get it published...


why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:07:33  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, it's been a week since the previous poll--the one regarding whether or not we should use a Wiki. Regarding those results, only four people were opposed to using a Wiki and would have liked to use something else. Two people were opposed to the concept of creating any sort of fanon, and two people were undecided. Everyone else--with an overwhelming majority of twelve votes--supported the creation of a Wiki.

So, I hope that is an issue we can now consider settled. I like to leave a poll open for at least a week to give as many people as possible a chance to vote, and if one side gets a lead like that it is unlikely future votes are going to tip the scales in another direction. As a result, I am going to consider the Wiki issue as one that is settled.

I also decided to deliberately remain silent for the past couple of days, because I wanted to avoid any continued back and forth posting. I wanted to see what people had to say without any sort of intermittent conversation. So, I am going to try and briefly summarize what everyone said--if you feel that this does not accurately capture what you said, please let me know. This is just a summary, to try and show the different points of view in a single location.

I asked the following questions:
- What is the best path forward for us as a community?
- What is the best use of the Candlekeep Wiki?
- What should we be doing, exactly, in your opinions?
- Are we still on board for a community-based project, and if so how should it be structured and organized?
- Ignoring what anyone else would want, what is your most ideal outcome?
- Alternatively, should we abandon the idea of a community-based project, and just use the Candlekeep Wiki as a place for people to post their homebrew lore?

Here is how people responded:
Dazzlerdal - Supports a community project. Although not stated directly in his post in response to the questions, in previous posts he makes clear his interest is in work dealing with the 1370s, and his dislike of the Time of Troubles, one of the RSE's of previous editions. He encourages that community project to move forward, to just take action, and his general feeling seems to be, 'if you build something awesome, they [new fans] will come.'

Wooly Rupert - Is not completely happy with the idea of a time jump, but is willing to support it because it includes all existing canon. This seems to be the central driving point for Wooly: 'keep all existing canon.' He would also like the timeline opened up so that people can fill in the gaps of the lost century.

Jeff Strix - Does not support rewriting the past, and supports keeping all existing canon. He is not enthusiastic about a time jump, but would support it. He believes that a Realms set in 1540/1550 DR would be the most ideal, as he has a concern of jumping too far into the future will make the Realms unrecognizable.

Markustay - Would prefer that people be allowed to write things that can be plugged into any era of the Realms without worrying about timelines.

CorellonsDevout - Feels that a time jump that provides a "clean slate" makes the most sense, but is concerned about how to integrate people who want to work at different points on the timeline, and disagreements on what the 'new slate' should look like. She is also supportive of the idea of people writing things that can be plugged into an era of the Realms without worrying about timelines. She is also not opposed to having our timeline near the current 5th Edition timeline, but is concerned about having our material overwritten by WotC.

Cyrinishad - Believes that we should build on the existing canon, not overwrite it.

SFDragon - Thinks we should just abandon the Realms entirely, and use the community to create a new setting.

Okay, that is everyone who appeared to be responding to my questions. If anyone feels that their thoughts or opinions have been mischaracterized, please respond so that they can be corrected.

============================

Based off these responses it seems that there is potential consensus on these three matters:

1. Accept all current canon.

2. Move the timeline forward.

3. Allow people to make lore for any place on the timeline, and in particular lore that can be 'plugged' into any edition or era. However, also lore that could help fill the 100 year time gap created by 4th Edition.


If this is what the community decides to do, then we have to answer the following questions:

1. How far ahead should we move the timeline?

2. How will we deal with the events of the Sundering, considering very little is published?

3. How will we deal with future WotC published canon which may overwrite or rewrite something that we publish as a community?

4. If people are writing in previous edition eras, what happens to their work if it is overwritten in the future by WotC's canon?


It is important for everyone to understand that all of these questions are interconnected, and they deal intimately on how the community wants to handle canon published by WotC moving forward. It will also largely pivot on how far we advance the timeline. The further we move the timeline ahead, the more room it creates for us to integrate future canon. The closer we stay to the current timeline, the more likely that something that is written will be overwritten at some point. This is particularly true as it relates to events after the Sundering, since so little is known about all of the exact changes the Sundering had on the Realms.

Another major point of consideration here is the design decisions made by WotC with 4th and 5th Edition FR. They attempted to do a 'soft reboot' of the Realms with each edition. With 4th Edition, the time jump was intended to create a 'soft reboot' of the Realms, and there were a lot of retcons thrown in there as well (like the stuff about Abier being a separate world from Toril). With 5th Edition, it was acknowledged that the changes that were made in 4th Edition was unpopular, and as a result the Sundering was another attempt at a reboot--but this time resetting the Realms to a state similar to pre-Time of Troubles. As a consequence of that, deities that have been dead for sometimes centuries are now back up and operating. With so little written about the post-Sundering Realms, this leaves a lot for people to make decisions about... we do not even know if the Sundering functioned like the Elven Sundering--where it went backward and forward through time, potentially changing events that we believed to be well established.

So, all of these things are important to take into consideration as those four questions are answered, because at the heart of them is questioning how the community should deal with the canon moving forward.

Edited by - Aldrick on 14 Jul 2017 22:08:53
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2720 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:23:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I honestly think that, if we have to accept all canon and fastforward for a blank slate, then we should have a degree of flexibility when it comes to contradicting canon itself. As it has been (justly) pointed out numerous times, being strict about canon not only kinda defeats the very purpose of this project, but it will surely invalidate people's work. We either craft our own lore, or we simply try to expand on what WotC's is currently doing. If you want to catch newcomers' eye and be useful to them, then they will likely be much more interested if we do #2 rather than #1, because it will connect with the new modules and adventures--in that case there will be no need ot further timeskip. If we do #1, starting from all existing canon as a base, then we need to accept that either we dissociate the CKWiki from future WotC canon, or a lot of our work will be potentially wasted (in short, we only incorporate canon that doesn't invalidate current CKWiki canon, especially if further lore has been built on it. This could always be subject to variation, maybe starting a vote, or something like that). In that case too, I don't see a large timeskip as needed, because the Sundering already provides what basically is *the* clean slate (I mean, it *actually* was an in-world reboot...)

As for the Sundering, we do have a list of changes that it brought (including the resurrection of so many gods, the return of whole continents, etc..), and they're gathered here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Sundering#Aftermath. If we're going to make all canon the base of the CKWiki, then what we know of the Second Sundering should be no exception, especially given that all that it restores gives many people the opportunity to write in the current CKWiki time about stuff they like and that it was taken away during 4e, but that it came back in 5e. And if the project is aimed to recreate that sense of community and of a shared growing world, then staying in the past is not a very inviting perspective for writers. The Sundering more or less provides a situation in which everyone would be able to write about what they like, since many 4e elements have been kept, despite being much less relevant than they were. If we add portals to Abeir sprinkled throughout the Realms, then people will be able to write about it too.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 22:31:19
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:40:24  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I honestly think that, if we have to accept all canon and fastforward for a blank slate, then we should have a degree of flexibility when it comes to contradicting canon itself. As it has been (justly) pointed out numerous times, being strict about canon not only kinda defeats the very purpose of this project, but it will surely invalidate people's work. We either craft our own lore, or we simply try to expand on what WotC's is currently doing. If you want to catch newcomers' eye and be useful to them, then they will likely be much more interested if we do #2 rather than #1, because it will connect with the new modules and adventures--in that case there will be no need ot further timeskip. If we do #1, starting from all existing canon as a base, then we need to accept that either we dissociate the CKWiki from future WotC canon, or a lot of our work will be potentially wasted (in short, we only incorporate canon that doesn't invalidate current CKWiki canon, especially if further lore has been built on it. This could always be subject to variation, maybe starting a vote, or something like that). In that case too, I don't see a large timeskip as needed, because the Sundering already provides what basically is *the* clean slate (I mean, it *actually* was an in-world reboot...)

As for the Sundering, we do have a list of changes that it brought (including the resurrection of so many gods, the return of whole continents, etc..), and they're gathered here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Sundering#Aftermath. If we're going to make all canon the base of the CKWiki, then what we know of the Second Sundering should be no exception, especially given that all that it restores gives many people the opportunity to write in the current CKWiki time about stuff they like and that it was taken away during 4e, but that it came back in 5e. And if the project is aimed to recreate that sense of community and of a shared growing world, then staying in the past is not a very inviting perspective for writers. The Sundering more or less provides a situation in which everyone would be able to write about what they like, since many 4e elements have been kept, despite being much less relevant than they were. If we add portals to Abeir sprinkled throughout the Realms, then people will be able to write about it too.



Correct me if I am wrong, but if I were to summarize what you would like to see happen (as I did in my previous post), then this would be your position:

Irennan - Supports a minor time jump, but wants to keep things close to 5th Edition lore. Then, moving forward, ignore WotC's canon in favor of the CKWiki canon.

Is that a correct and fair interpretation of your position? I notice that you were weighing the pro's and con's of such a move, but I am not completely sure which side you fell on by the end of your post.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2720 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:50:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, it is. However, while I think that all that the Sundering brought back should be kept (especially because if we need to be inclusive, then this also extends to people who lost things that they enjoyed and that have now got it back), since I think that future WotC lore that contradicts CKWiki lore should be ignored (unless--maybe--people decide to vote it in and override the CKWiki lore), a further timejump is pointless. Starting from 1491 (current year) will do.


To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 22:55:48
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2720 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:53:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That said, I think that maybe we could also elaborate on the changes brought by the Sundering. Instead of saying "Ao did X", we might do what WotC refused to do, and provide some explanations. Although that would be of little use to most players or DMs, and would only be interesting to those who care about continuity.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 22:55:55
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Jeff Strix
Seeker

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  23:06:29  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I think if we decide to be independent - we should be independent from so called WotC official canon-content. It will be better for all long-time FR fans I think, for all who want to make FR better then now, to breathe in life into it. What we can make - can be official only for us, and for everyone, who thinks it's a right thing. If someone will think it's a bullshit and they don't need this, well they are free to think so and take WotC official canon. So, for us to ignore WotC canon products will be the best way. If it will be overwritten by them - no problem, they can do what they want, we don't care if we plan something like this, are we? How far in future - as I wrote already, the best for me will be 1540 + 20/30 years, or something like that. And one more time about WotC official canon and why should we ignore it - they simply have no borders anymore - as example, the last one "The tomb of Annihilation": Acererak in Forgotten realms, really? Just so? Is he simply teleportated from Greyhawk, without any rules? What a stupidity!
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Jeff Strix
Seeker

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  23:12:13  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah yes, I forgot about Sundering I think there's no problem to fill some information, if needed, but of course very carefully (better without any global destructive things) - to avoid timeline conflicts in future.

Edited by - Jeff Strix on 14 Jul 2017 23:36:14
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
692 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  05:02:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. How far ahead should we move the timeline?

Three to five years at much.

2. How will we deal with the events of the Sundering, considering very little is published?

I'm with Irennan, try to explain them in a logical way, since the published products don't explain anything: they just happen.

3. How will we deal with future WotC published canon which may overwrite or rewrite something that we publish as a community?

Well, since WotC only publish stuff for the Sword Coast, I doubt this will affect all the project. I guess we should ignore that canon unless is decided that WotC canon is interesting enough to override the CKcanon.

4. If people are writing in previous edition eras, what happens to their work if it is overwritten in the future by WotC's canon?

Same as answer 3.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Starting from 1491 (current year) will do.


Or maybe a few years after (1493-95). It allows DMs and players to develop their current adventures normally, and the CKcanon to not override current material, yet to be connected to it as a recent backstory.

Better yet, we can start in 1500. New canon, new century.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Jul 2017 05:09:38
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  05:59:25  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage  Send Adhriva an AOL message  Send Adhriva a Yahoo! Message Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. How far ahead should we move the timeline?

My preference is for 1495DR and 1555DR, as has already been suggested. I'm fine with either. Truth be told, I want to add the work and art of my Eclipse Empire project to this if it comes to pass and both those dates work remarkable well (1495DR was the exact end of the first half and 1555DR was the end of the whole story). Even without that bias, both dates would be good for the general wiki concept at hand although I would lean toward the first for relevancy. The realms change quickly, or they change very slowly...there really isn't much in between when it comes to canon so I would lean towards keeping the time jump short.

2. How will we deal with the events of the Sundering, considering very little is published?

I know I can handle the events in the Herald (last book of that series) by adding elements and context instead of changing them. As such, I'm confidant the community can make the other events work solidly as well by adding to the framework.

3. How will we deal with future WotC published canon which may overwrite or rewrite something that we publish as a community?

If it's better then what we have, then let them. We can vote on which we'd prefer - but given the state of things I don't expect any change to be substantial or widespread. It's also important to remember we're here because they haven't been doing that for some time now. If they do continue it, most of us will have formed a niche community or moved on by then so I kinda expect it to be a mute point.

4. If people are writing in previous edition eras, what happens to their work if it is overwritten in the future by WotC's canon?

Same as the question above. I don't think it's any different and should be handled the same way.

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2033 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  17:47:26  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Adhriva. I needed to think, and what to see what others suggested before saying anything.

Honestly, if WotC does get their act together and starts focusing on the Realms again, great! But even if what we create does get overwritten by WotC, we can still create it (that's why it's unofficial canon). If they do something we like, we can always find ways to incorporate it.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Jeff Strix
Seeker

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  21:10:22  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I'm with Adhriva. I needed to think, and what to see what others suggested before saying anything.

Honestly, if WotC does get their act together and starts focusing on the Realms again, great! But even if what we create does get overwritten by WotC, we can still create it (that's why it's unofficial canon). If they do something we like, we can always find ways to incorporate it.




This is also a good idea, if they will do a really good content (I doubt it, but yeah, maybe) - why not. As I remember, before 5 Edition release (or after...doesn't matter) WotC said - create your own realms, your own history and the things we discuss here and now are exactly what WotC meant
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2041 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  21:28:11  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
and start off the little know prophesy of aluando( spelled right??) that foretold of the candle timeline...

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
241 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  13:04:04  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
People seem to be getting hung up on either/or questions, but to quote the Old El Paso ad, "Why don't we have both?" :D A wiki can easily accommodate multiple different projects, through different namespaces, users' own sandboxes, or categories. People could work on Ol' Gray Box–style pre–Time of Troubles articles; or in the Lost Century; in the current era of whenever 5th edition is set; or jump ahead into the 1500s DR and put their own stamp on things; or some weird parallel universe total reworking, and never really have to come into contact or worry about what others are doing. They don't even have to agree.

And if WotC eventually overwrites something published on CKW, then, well, it's a wiki. It can be rewritten. Anyone can come around and revise or update an article to accommodate the new lore, whether it's changing a name or date or modifying events more extensively, removing things outright, or even deleting the page or renaming it back to a sandbox space. Previous text on a page is saved in its Revision History, and deleted page can be restored, so nothing is fully lost. It would be bad form to alter a user's personal project, but a public page could be open to revision. Users could discuss whether to make changes and what kind on an article's Talk page, while wider matters can be covered in the Forum. So, retcons? What retcons? :) This could be the first canon that's wholly fluid and evolving, with no continuity errors or contradictions.

To demonstrate how I suppose the CKW could work, I've mocked up an article for it. So, the process. Here's the canonical article on the Forgotten Realms Wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Bladewright
Here's the homebrewed background for a short-lived PC of mine I posted on Candlekeep last year:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21136
And here's the very first article on the Candlekeep Wiki: :D
http://candlekeep.wikia.com/wiki/User:BadCatMan/Hooked_on_Psionics/Order_of_the_Bladewright
(Templates were a bit too tedious to hack up at this stage.)

So, I took the layout and text of the canonical article, cut-up my homebrewed stuff, and interspersed it together with appropriate revisions and linking text. In the end, I removed my own PC Sambrylla Smith, and left an unnamed and non-gendered young member of the Order of the Bladewright in her place. That way, any player can choose to add their own PC in that slot, or a GM could spin an NPC out of it. It's an open plothook and character suggestion that makes this fanon useful for gaming and storytelling.

Each line is referenced to either an existing canon work or to myself, so a reader can check which is which. With good referencing, multiple fan writers can add their own lore. Say George Krashos has something about Impiltur that touches on the Order of the Bladewright. New lore on the Order's origins? Add it! Different events in the coronation? Remove it and change it.

I've put this in the User namespace, so at this stage it's just a personal project. I wouldn't expect anyone to fiddle with it. But say the fan community especially likes it. They could set some criteria: agrees with canon and accepted fanon, fits the spirit of the Realms, and provides plothooks. People can vote on it in the Forum or on the Talk page, make suggestions or request revisions, and decided whether to accept it or not. The process could be similar to how the FRW votes on its Featured Articles. If the page is rejected, it waits for improvement or languishes in obscurity. If accepted, it could be renamed to the Main namespace (with no "User:BadCatMan\") and becomes a part of the Candlekanon. If for some reason it's no longer valid (say Wizards declares the Order of the Bladewright were illithids all along), it can be retracted.

For those who still love their sourcebooks, the best approved articles might be collated into a Candlekeep Compendium each year.

In any case, using a wiki would preserve a lot of the write-ups that get lost in the Candlekeep Forum archives, making fanon lore findable and easily linkable. It would also bring in the homebrew work of other fans, who'd otherwise have to use a separate website or keep it at home, so they can easily share write-ups with their players.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki

Edited by - BadCatMan on 11 Aug 2017 13:15:37
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
692 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  14:38:57  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, the wiki already exists? Count me aboard...

Though I guess, is time to agree in what is the CKW canon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30284 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  15:26:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. How far ahead should we move the timeline?

Five or ten years at most -- enough for breathing room, but not so much that existing canon is no longer useful as a starting point. And I don't think WotC is going to catch up to that any time soon -- even when we were getting oodles of stuff, the timeline crawled forward.

2. How will we deal with the events of the Sundering, considering very little is published?

Just go with what we know. As I've said more than once, something doesn't violate canon if canon doesn't address it. So if we have a blank spot, and put something in that blank spot, it's not a violation of known canon, because known canon doesn't say it's wrong.

3. How will we deal with future WotC published canon which may overwrite or rewrite something that we publish as a community?

With WotC only giving us dribs and drabs at the moment, I don't see this being an issue.

4. If people are writing in previous edition eras, what happens to their work if it is overwritten in the future by WotC's canon?

For the Realms, WotC (and TSR before them) has generally avoided anything that wasn't set in the here-and-now. Even if WotC was currently giving us lore like they did in 2E or even 3E, I don't see this as being a concern.


Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Jul 2017 15:33:16
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fw190a8
Seeker

United Kingdom
31 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  18:24:15  Show Profile  Visit fw190a8's Homepage  Click to see fw190a8's MSN Messenger address Send fw190a8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I completely posted in the wrong thread because I'm a fool. :) I have mocked up (a very first draft of) what BadCatMan's article might look like if we were to publish such articles (or collections thereof) in Wizardsy-style PDFs:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4PHSakiQ8gpWGtsTjJqSllJZG8

Comments welcome. And yes, the page numbers are MASSIVE. ;)

Contributor to the Forgotten Realms Wiki: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com
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Lhynard
Seeker

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2017 :  18:38:04  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This topic has triggered a new idea of mine that may be of interest to the readers here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21798
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