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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 16:22:26
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For your consideration: a compilation of the known history of Amaunator. If something isn't registered as canon, I use language like "it is thought" and such forth. Everything is based on at least one source though - even the theories in italics are based on theories derived from the source materials.
The Known History of Amaunator, the Yellow God
Amaunator first appears in recorded history as one of the deities of the Netherese pantheon. Known as the Yellow God and the Keeper of Law, Amaunator was a powerful deity of law, order, and the sun, and his priests were important political figures in Netherese society. However, when Netheril fell after Karsus’s Folly, Amaunator’s surviving worshipers turned their backs on him, believing he did nothing to stop the disasters affecting their civilization. His followers were right, but contractually, his hands were tied. Magic in all forms was under exclusive control of Mystryl, and Amaunator had no lawful right to interfere in any way, even in the magical catastrophe that ensued after Karsus’s folly.
Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became At'ar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerun and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect.
During this time of Amaunator's decline, the first records of the faith of Lathander appear – a faith rising among the Netherese survivors that sought refuge in other lands. While Amaunator’s power declined, Lathander’s rose, and a sect of Amaunator’s followers began to believe that Lathander was the reincarnated form of Amaunator. This sect called themselves the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, and they eventually became recognized as one of Lathander’s main knightly orders.
Theory: As Amaunator declined, he turned bitter against his once faithful that abandoned him. He cursed the land his priests had once attended, and the sun directly over it began to glare with a hateful intensity. Already drained by the phaerimm’s magic, the southern part of Netheril became a searingly hot desert.
After about a millennium of decline, Amaunator eventually did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus, and he was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse drifted there with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit might help him regain his once-proud heritage.
Many centuries later, during the Era of Upheaval, the ambitious spirit Amaunator needed came in the form of Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir, a Lathanderite priest and fire genasi of Elversult who could trace his lineage back to a Netherese priest of Amaunator. Daelegoth had come to be a member of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, which had maintained that Lathander was the reborn Amaunator for centuries. By the early 1370s, Daelegoth had become one of the most powerful clerics in Faerûn (achieving 25th level), while also having become the archbishop of Lathander in the Dragon Coast. The cleric eventually came to the understanding that not only was Lathander the reborn Amaunator, but that the two guises existed in a cycle – a cycle soon about to culminate in the return of Amaunator. This belief in an imminent return led him to become the leader of a movement that was then known within Lathander’s clergy as the Risen Sun heresy.
In 1374 DR, Daelegoth successfully asked for divine help from what he claimed to be Amaunator/Lathander in diverting the floods of the High Ice from Elversult, and subsequently became known as a worker of miracles, winning his movement many new followers. Daelegoth began to preach that he had seen a vision of an eternal sun rising high above the land that would herald the rebirth of Amaunator, and ultimately he perfected a powerful spell that brought this vision to reality. His eternal sun still hangs over the city of Elversult today*. Word of “Amaunator’s eternal sun” spread quickly across Faerûn, and would-be converts began turning up at the doors of Lathanderite temples across the continent, seeking to convert to the faith of Amaunator. Throughout this entire period, the Lathanderite clergy never condemned Daelegoth, waiting for some sun from their god about the truth of the heresy – but Lathander never showed any sign of approval or disapproval of the new sect. It is unknown to this day if Amaunator had somehow managed to send a message and some power to Daelegoth, or if he achieved these deeds using only the divine power of Lathander. If the former, he may have been aided by his recovery of an ancient artifact of Amaunator known as the Shard of the Sun.
Only a little over a decade later, in 1385 DR, the Spellplague erupted through the cosmos with the death of Mystra at the hands of Cyric. Lathander, together with Tyr and Sune, acted to imprison Cyric within his home plane for a thousand years. Whether or not this act, together with the decline of Lathander’s faith on Toril, had resulted in Lathander becoming weakened and more vulnerable to attack is unknown. Whatever the case, soon afterwards Lathander disappeared. At the same time, Amaunator appeared in a new plane known as the Eternal Sun, taking Lathander’s place. Amaunator’s clergy continued preaching that he and Lathander were but different guises for the same deity, and with Lathander silent, his faith died away while Amaunator’s rose in power. Amaunator thus inherited Lathander’s position in the Faerûnian pantheon, becoming a greater power once more, just as he was in the days of ancient Netheril. Over the following century, many temples that once served Lathander were converted to temples of Amaunator, and his clergy rose dramatically in power. As far as most of Toril was concerned, what had once been called the Risen Sun heresy had been revealed to be the truth.
This new truth lasted for a hundred years. Then, during the Sundering, Lathander suddenly began to answer the prayers of his faithful once more. This was much to the surprise of Amaunator’s clergy, who had preached for over a century that the two deities were but one. By 1489 DR, the Era of Upheaval had come to an end, and both deities appeared to be active on Toril. However, the nature of the relationship between the two deities remains unclear, as does where they reside in the planes. Some suspect that Amaunator had bound Lathander away by force, and it was only Ao’s changing of the rules and the reshaping of the planes during the Sundering that freed him.
Theory: With both deities now present in the Faerûnian pantheon, many expect a confrontation between their clergies - especially as the faithful of Lathander are expected to try and reclaim their old temples from the Amaunatori. Amaunator’s attention may be divided however – some suspect he is behind the return of the searingly hot desert sands of the southern Anauroch.
A note on At'ar the Merciless
The Bedine tribesmen of Anauroch have no priests, but they respect and fear a version of Amaunator they call At’ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess. Chief amongst the deities of the Bedine and symbolizing the heat of the desert sun, At'ar is seen as a spiteful and faithless woman whose fury in the full day strikes fear into the bravest hearts. She is a harlot who betrays her lawful husband Kozah every day to steep with N'asr, god of night and the dead. However, At’ar does not exist – she is but a myth derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.
Sources
Faiths and Avatars, Anauroch, 2e FRCS, Netheril: Empire of Magic, Grand History of the Realms, Lost Empires of Faerun, Player's Guide to Faerun, Power of Faerun, Races of Faerun, 4e FRCG, 4e FR Player's Guide, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, the Crystal Mountain, Blackstaff Tower, The Companions, The Godborn, The Reaver, WotC "Lore You Should Know" podcast
*The "eternal sun" still being there is a theory - Elversult, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been detailed since 3e. Note that it is not the same as Elturel's "Companion", also known colloquially as "Amaunator's Gift", which appeared around the 1440s - no one actually knows how the Companion came to be, and which deity was involved, if any. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 16:39:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 16:37:58
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I've never been a fan of the multi-faced deity (conjoined, tripartite, etc) concept myself, because it wreaks havoc with wrapping rules around cosmological beings. The best I can managed is that each being gives a single avatar and combines them into something new, but in some cases, the conjoined god is more powerful than contributing deities, so that wouldn't make sense (in some cases, maybe they give more than one avatar, which amounts to 'shedding' DvR pts.?)
And there will always be 'time problems' Wooly, which is why we have things like The Sundering, The creation of Evermeet, and The Dawn Cataclysm all happening 'outside of time'/"reaching backwards in time"/etc., and why I felt it was okay to thrust Orcus back in time (as the dead vestige of Nerull, thus creating the paradox that allows 'undead gods', which is completely non-sensical). As an aside to all of this, Ed is a brilliant world-designer, but he kept everything 'hazy' for a reason - once you start trying to put concrete dates to everything, the timeline develops some bad problems (a precise dating of one event messes with other events). It works so long as it is all 'distant past' or 'legend' (and also why he had separate calendars for every country, etc - single-system timelines revealed a lot of glitches).
I feel like we are closer to 'The Truth' (at least one of FR's 'deep secrets' than we've ever been before. We keep seeing this repeating pattern of 'two halves of the same god'. Here's the thing - in most cases of mythology (RW and D&D), when a (true) god has 'two halves', its usually a 'divine feminine', and a 'divine masculine', and this works great for some of these current musings regarding Aumanator, but when we go ALL the way back t the beginning... whats the deal with Mystryl and Selûne?
Is Shar a transgender 'divine masculine'? 
I (kinda) know how Ed feels about that particular RW subject, but we are talking about him coming up with something like that some 45 years ago, when he was still just a kid; I know he's a brilliant world-builder, but I think something like that is 'too modern' a concept for it to be something worked into the original Realms. HOWEVER, right around that time the whole thing with 'multiple personality disorder' became big news (the book Sybil was released, and it was a best-seller - I read it myself, and I was just a kid), and if we apply that to gods - who do split themselves all the time - it can be more of a metaphyscial 'male' & 'female' (Sybil had male personalities). Mystryl-Shar (no-one like 'Mysharona?  ) was NEVER mortal - she was a created being, so the entire concept of 'sexual identity' IS just a convention of mortal worshipers. Although thats also a modern concept (sexual identity), coming up with it for gods - who are NOT actually physical beings (in the normal sense) - makes perfect sense, even for a kid some 45 years ago. You only need 'sex' if you need to procreate using genitalia, which gods most obviously do not.
So maybe Shar is Mystryl's 'dude-like', negative-aspected, other half. I have noticed quite a lot of behavior Shar has in common with Mystra/Mstryl in the RotAW novels, and I chalked that up to poor writing... but what if it wasn't? What if Troy Denning was keenly aware that it was the same goddess all along? It makes perfect sense in regards to the Weave - one personality is trying to become dominant. The Weave could literally BE 'Mystryl's mind' - the Shadoweave is her subconscious (now coming to the fore).
And since Mystrl is/was a representation of the earliest form of 'life' post-Sundering, all these beings that came after all have this half/half thing going on (so all gods are bat-crap crazy... which does make sense). The 'duality' of the universe keeps getting mirrored over and over again.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Also need to consider that At'ar likely never existed.
From Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
The cautious regard the Bedine have for At'ar has never brought them any answer to their prayers, however, because At'ar does not exist. She is but a twisted memory of Amaunator, the ancient Netherese god of law and the sun, derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.
As I've said over in the Anauroch thread, I suspect that Amaunator may have been still a little active after Netheril's fall, but as a merciless god that just wanted the sun to burn those that had lost faith in him, solely using his power to turn the southern Anauroch into a powerfully hot desert - and that's where At'ar the Merciless comes from. But that's just a theory.
A couple of caveats: Although we like to fall back on 1e/2e lore whenever possible around here, because we've had sweeping changes to the cosmology since 2e books were written (like having a 'before time' when Abeir and Toril were one world, so that technically non of the pre-Sundering events actually happened on the Toril that we know). And as I just mentioned above, we have several major world-changing events that have occurred over the years that could mean there is really (at least) two separate 'histories' (I recall a heated argument with some people over on the WoTC boards concerning this, because they insisted that there was but one, single 'timeline' for FR, and I pointed out that several things - including Elaine's Evermeet novel and at least one Vingette in the GHotR says that 'the world was changed' backwards & forwards in time, and 'whole groups of people were simply erased'. That sounds like we had one history, and then we had another). Thus, all the stuff from 'legends' that doesn't quite fit right (years being off, or saying such-and-such a god did such-and-such, when we have other lore saying that couldn't have happened at that time because of other stuff...) could be written off as 'glitches in the matrix' - we have an in-setting reason for the continuity to be off (just as DC comics did with their Crisis series.. which turned into several series because they kept getting new glitches). Perhaps some bits of history - magically protected libraries of the elves, for example - may have been protected from the changes, and thus the oddness of that history when compared to what we know is true now.
I don't love it, and I know lots of people here HATE 'timey-wimey' explanations, but they really do help smooth the rough edges.
So I don't feel we should totally discount the stuff about A'tar. Its certainly not 'pure fact', but considering its based on "what people knew to be true" in 2nd edition (when no-one suspected Aumanator would return), we can borrow from the legends and try to find grains of truth within them.
because thats what we do around here.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 16:41:31
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| And Lathander as Aumanator's servant makes lots of sense, except some of us are trying (desperately?) to connect the current 'two suns' with the earliest lore we have about the Godswar (the stuff from the draconic legends concerning the two suns). Sure, we can consider them separate things, but its just much more fun trying to link everything together. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 18:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Lathander as Aumanator's servant makes lots of sense, except some of us are trying (desperately?) to connect the current 'two suns' with the earliest lore we have about the Godswar (the stuff from the draconic legends concerning the two suns). Sure, we can consider them separate things, but its just much more fun trying to link everything together.
I would say the two suns thing predates Amaunator. So having Lathander serve Amaunator millennia later simply isn't a factor in the issue. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Apr 2017 19:19:37 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 19:49:59
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im gonna have to go into rant mode.
Reading these events nearly turned me off FR altogether, nevermind just the novels.
I realise now why i dislike the new Forgotten Realms. Its because it has departed so much from Eds original vision that the two settings are not even slightly related.
Yes Eds realms had gods and chosen in it, but they were just a very distant and unknowable background. The setting was about the people and a simulated real world.
This horrible, boring monstrosity is just a quasi rip off of the marvel universe set in a medieval fantasy world. But its even worse than that as its not about the super heroes anymore its about 2 dimensional deities and their lusts.
For years Ed was pestered by people about what did this god say and what would this god do (checj his threads out). For years Ed was telling people politely thatvits not about the gods, the gods are distant and unknowable, its about the people. Nobody listened and now FR is in this truly awful state. I wouldnt be surprised if this was a contributing factor to why Ed left to make stormtalons (i dont see any god nonsense in that setting).
Im just stating my opinion here. I dont think i can read this tripe for much longer. Thankfully im gonna rewrite the realms just for me (and there wont be a single god doing or saying anything to amyone).
Rant over.
I'm going to have to disagree with this. I think the gods add flavor to the Realms, and getting rid of them would make it the dull world that some fear it's becoming (or has become). Yes, when there is a constant interference, it got old, because it was literally dues ex machina, but no interference is equally boring, especially because the gods are very much a part of the Realms, whether their avatars appear, or they interact via visions/dreams. They can still be mysterious and be active in the Realms. I don't mind the gods being a little more distant, but being too distant would ruin the Realms for me. The planes and the various deities (and these discussions about deity aspects) help make the Realms the Realms.
Of course in the end it's about the people, but having the higher powers makes it richer. A world that was just about people with some magic thrown in would make it too RW in a fictional setting. There are other books for that.
I do seem to remember Ed saying his original intention for the gods was to have them being mysterious, and often appear in dreams and visions, but that doesn't mean they don't interact with their followers. What X god is asking of his cleric is up to interpretation (and in game, players have to figure it out), but that doesn't mean the gods aren't a part of the world.
For certain races, like drow and elves, their gods make up a large part of who they are. If it weren't for deities like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, the drow would be the evil spider-kissers WotC tried to make them in 4e by getting rid of the drow pantheon.
Also, while I haven't read Stormtalons yet, I seem to remember Ed saying there are indeed gods in that setting. 6 main ones, if I recall. But I don't know anything about the setting, so I could be wrong on that account, and mixing my info up with something else.
Anyway, back to the OP, I too am glad Amaunataur and Lathander are different deities. I don't remember that particular scene in the Reaver, but I do remember the division in the Lathander church in the Twilight Wars, because it was believed the Deliverence (where Lathander would become Amaunataur) was coming, and others believed it heresy.
I am glad the deity diversity is back, I just wish there was more detail on it! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Apr 2017 22:58:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 05:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've never been a fan of the multi-faced deity (conjoined, tripartite, etc) concept myself, because it wreaks havoc with wrapping rules around cosmological beings. The best I can managed is that each being gives a single avatar and combines them into something new, but in some cases, the conjoined god is more powerful than contributing deities, so that wouldn't make sense (in some cases, maybe they give more than one avatar, which amounts to 'shedding' DvR pts.?)
And there will always be 'time problems' Wooly, which is why we have things like The Sundering, The creation of Evermeet, and The Dawn Cataclysm all happening 'outside of time'/"reaching backwards in time"/etc., and why I felt it was okay to thrust Orcus back in time (as the dead vestige of Nerull, thus creating the paradox that allows 'undead gods', which is completely non-sensical). As an aside to all of this, Ed is a brilliant world-designer, but he kept everything 'hazy' for a reason - once you start trying to put concrete dates to everything, the timeline develops some bad problems (a precise dating of one event messes with other events). It works so long as it is all 'distant past' or 'legend' (and also why he had separate calendars for every country, etc - single-system timelines revealed a lot of glitches).
I feel like we are closer to 'The Truth' (at least one of FR's 'deep secrets' than we've ever been before. We keep seeing this repeating pattern of 'two halves of the same god'. Here's the thing - in most cases of mythology (RW and D&D), when a (true) god has 'two halves', its usually a 'divine feminine', and a 'divine masculine', and this works great for some of these current musings regarding Aumanator, but when we go ALL the way back t the beginning... whats the deal with Mystryl and Selûne?
Is Shar a transgender 'divine masculine'?
I (kinda) know how Ed feels about that particular RW subject, but we are talking about him coming up with something like that some 45 years ago, when he was still just a kid; I know he's a brilliant world-builder, but I think something like that is 'too modern' a concept for it to be something worked into the original Realms. HOWEVER, right around that time the whole thing with 'multiple personality disorder' became big news (the book Sybil was released, and it was a best-seller - I read it myself, and I was just a kid), and if we apply that to gods - who do split themselves all the time - it can be more of a metaphyscial 'male' & 'female' (Sybil had male personalities). Mystryl-Shar (no-one like 'Mysharona? ) was NEVER mortal - she was a created being, so the entire concept of 'sexual identity' IS just a convention of mortal worshipers. Although thats also a modern concept (sexual identity), coming up with it for gods - who are NOT actually physical beings (in the normal sense) - makes perfect sense, even for a kid some 45 years ago. You only need 'sex' if you need to procreate using genitalia, which gods most obviously do not.
So maybe Shar is Mystryl's 'dude-like', negative-aspected, other half. I have noticed quite a lot of behavior Shar has in common with Mystra/Mstryl in the RotAW novels, and I chalked that up to poor writing... but what if it wasn't? What if Troy Denning was keenly aware that it was the same goddess all along? It makes perfect sense in regards to the Weave - one personality is trying to become dominant. The Weave could literally BE 'Mystryl's mind' - the Shadoweave is her subconscious (now coming to the fore).
And since Mystrl is/was a representation of the earliest form of 'life' post-Sundering, all these beings that came after all have this half/half thing going on (so all gods are bat-crap crazy... which does make sense). The 'duality' of the universe keeps getting mirrored over and over again.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Also need to consider that At'ar likely never existed.
From Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
The cautious regard the Bedine have for At'ar has never brought them any answer to their prayers, however, because At'ar does not exist. She is but a twisted memory of Amaunator, the ancient Netherese god of law and the sun, derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.
As I've said over in the Anauroch thread, I suspect that Amaunator may have been still a little active after Netheril's fall, but as a merciless god that just wanted the sun to burn those that had lost faith in him, solely using his power to turn the southern Anauroch into a powerfully hot desert - and that's where At'ar the Merciless comes from. But that's just a theory.
A couple of caveats: Although we like to fall back on 1e/2e lore whenever possible around here, because we've had sweeping changes to the cosmology since 2e books were written (like having a 'before time' when Abeir and Toril were one world, so that technically non of the pre-Sundering events actually happened on the Toril that we know). And as I just mentioned above, we have several major world-changing events that have occurred over the years that could mean there is really (at least) two separate 'histories' (I recall a heated argument with some people over on the WoTC boards concerning this, because they insisted that there was but one, single 'timeline' for FR, and I pointed out that several things - including Elaine's Evermeet novel and at least one Vingette in the GHotR says that 'the world was changed' backwards & forwards in time, and 'whole groups of people were simply erased'. That sounds like we had one history, and then we had another). Thus, all the stuff from 'legends' that doesn't quite fit right (years being off, or saying such-and-such a god did such-and-such, when we have other lore saying that couldn't have happened at that time because of other stuff...) could be written off as 'glitches in the matrix' - we have an in-setting reason for the continuity to be off (just as DC comics did with their Crisis series.. which turned into several series because they kept getting new glitches). Perhaps some bits of history - magically protected libraries of the elves, for example - may have been protected from the changes, and thus the oddness of that history when compared to what we know is true now.
I don't love it, and I know lots of people here HATE 'timey-wimey' explanations, but they really do help smooth the rough edges.
So I don't feel we should totally discount the stuff about A'tar. Its certainly not 'pure fact', but considering its based on "what people knew to be true" in 2nd edition (when no-one suspected Aumanator would return), we can borrow from the legends and try to find grains of truth within them.
because thats what we do around here.
Never gonna stop, give it up, such a dirty mind
I always get it up, for the touch of the younger kind
My, my, my, aye-aye, whoa!
M-m-m-my Sharona
Whoops... oh, and regarding the moons and their being feminine .... what about the "ice moon"/"crystal sun" Zotha? It was masculine. Might Selune have had a love... that Asgorath killed... and that Shar was pissed about <dun duh dun>
From the original draconomicon
#147;. . . The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 06:22:27
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I think that Jergal, Amaunator, and Lathander may be connected by history if anything and not by deific links. There's nothing really concrete to say that they're the same deity, or even definitively related. Netheril: Empire of Magic depicts Jergal and Amaunator as separate equals who have a cordial relationship. What exactly Lathander is remains unclear, but as Wooly said, he could have been a relatively unknown servant of Amaunator that starts getting worshipers of his own after the Fall due to his powerful message of a new dawn. Or, he could have been an interloper that arrives after the Fall. Or, he could be a new being or lesser known god that rises out the Netherese survivors mixing with the peoples of other lands, such as Jhaamdath in the Vilhon Reach.
I like that the Three Faced Sun heresy of Power of Faerun may have partly come from Jergal and the "new god" Lathander having very different approaches as to what to do after the fall, and both being connected to Amaunator (one as a former ally of sorts, and one by being associated with the sun). Jergal apparently loses interest in the world, and will eventually allow his portfolios to be taken by the Dead Three. Lathander, his star rising, takes the opposite approach, wishing a glorious future for the world, and begins planning to remove evil from it - eventually setting in motion the events of the Dawn Cataclysm. This is a good start for any heresy thinking of them as the dusk and dawnlords.
So here's the timeline of what we know:
-359 DR: Borem is slain by the Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal (the Dead Three) in the Year of the Boiling Moats (GHotR).
-339 DR: Amaunator starts dying with the fall of Netheril (F&A). Sometime later Jergal will give up his portfolio to the Dead Three.
-255 DR: Jhaamdath is hit by a massive tidal wave - an event some associate with Lathander's Dawn Cataclysm.
-137 DR: The first dating of followers of Lathander come from a group of paladins from the Vilhon Reach arriving in Westgate (GHotR, Cloak and Dagger supplements). We also know that at some point (undated) Netherese survivors brought the faith of Lathander as the reborn Amaunator to Tethyr (RoF) - probably some of the first Glorious Sun members.
~600s DR: Amaunator stops answering prayers on Toril a millenia after the fall of Netheril (F&A).
<714 DR: The Dawn Cataclysm is "believed to have heralded the fall of Myth Drannor", meaning it likely ends before that event (F&A).
The "Lathander, lesser god of Jhaamdath" theory
Now here's another interesting point to think about: in Faiths and Avatars, Amaunator is listed as a foe of Eldath. Interestingly, Eldath also lists Lathander as an ally in F&A! There has also been some conjecture (with input from Steven Schend, creator of Jhaamdath), that Eldath was an important god of the Jhaamdathi pantheon. Note Lathander and Amaunator are never listed as allies or enemies.
So, what if Netherese survivors of the fall came to Jhaamdath, and those few carrying the faith of Amaunator started clashing with those of Eldath, and that's how they became enemies? Then, it is there in the Vilhon Reach that the faith of Lathander is born into its modern incarnation. Perhaps previously, Lathander had been a little worshiped god of the dawn in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. By a couple of generations after the Fall, the descendants of the Netherese survivors had mostly forgotten about Amaunator (perhaps assisted in this by clergy of Eldath), but they are still are drawn to sun faiths, and thus to worship of Lathander. This invigorates Lathander enough to become a much powerful deity, and the excitable god starts having dreams of grandeur. His faith begins to spread, including to lands like Tethyr. The Dawn Cataclysm nears, and within a hundred years of the fall of Netheril (-339) Jhaamdath is destroyed (-255). Within another hundred years (-137), the first written records of paladins of Lathander appears, riding out of the Vilhon Reach to Westgate. In fact, the Chondathan diaspora following the destruction of Jhaamdath would have spread Lathander's faith much more widely.
I know any mention of the Dawn Cataclysm gets people a bit antsy as the timeline is so whack, but Lathander having a role in the destruction of Jhaamdath isn't a central part of this theory. It still works if you say the Dawn Cataclysm didn't occur until the 700s, and the destruction of Jhaamdath was unrelated.
A Dawn Cataclysm Timeline
Here's an example possible timeline involving the above, for your consideration:
Around -339 DR: Netherese survivors come to Jhaamdath, and come to worship Lathander. Lathander starts to grow in power, as the peoples of the world begin to mingle more and more, he seeks to redesign the Realms in his own image. He sees the image of a rose leading to a reorganisation of the gods, and begins cultivating roses in the hope of bringing this vision to fruition.
Around -300 DR: Tyche takes a flower that she believes to be Lathander's, knowing of his vision as the two were in love, and plants it in her hair (for more on this, see Dragon 388). However, the flower she takes is actually the disguised Moander, but he does not destroy her yet - he instead corrupts any Chosen she creates from that point. This is the beginning of the Dawn Cataclysm.
-276 DR: The great Jhaamdathi metamind Dharien siezes control of Jhaamdath and begins to build a great armada (perhaps so he can reshape the world in his image, encouraged by Lathander?). This fuels conflict with the elves of Nikerymath (GHotR).
-255 DR: High Mages of Nikerymath unleash a tidal wave that destroys Jhaamdath. There is some speculation that this is related to the death of Murdane at Umberlee's hands, and combined with the fact that Helm blames Lathander for Murdane's death and Murdane's death is related to the Dawn Cataclysm (GHotR), it is possible that Lathander's actions (possibly by encouraging Dharien) led to this event.
-137 DR: First recorded paladins of Lathander (though they likely existed before this) coming out of the Vilhon Reach to strike down a vampire king of Westgate (and take over rulership of that city).
75 DR: Moander's presence on Toril is weakened when he is imprisoned in Tsornyl (GHotR). However, the damage to Tyche has already been done.
136 DR: Azuth is no longer Magister.
161 DR: Last Chosen of Tyche dies within the coils of Moander's avatar (GHotR).
171 DR: Moander sealed away in Yulash, and high magic is used to banish him from the Realms (GHotR).
~700 DR: The full extent of Moander's damage to Tyche is revealed to be incurable, and Selune strikes Tyche with divine light, splitting her into two. The event leads to the creation of Tymora and Beshaba, and a schism in Tyche's church (FRCS). As Lathander considers his actions with the destruction of his love, the Dawn Cataclysm comes to an end, immediately before the fall of Myth Drannor in 714 DR (thus heralding it).
This version of the Dawn Cataclysm lasts for 1,000 years as timed by how long it takes for Moander's actions to lead to Tyche's destruction. The whole event was precipitated by Lathander - but I would throw in the possibility that Moander put the idea in his head. After all, the flower was what Tyche believed Lathander would use to instigate the redesigning of the Realms, and Moander is a god of rotting plants. All he has to do is plant a vision of greatness in the ambitious and naive young god's mind that involves a flower, and pretend to be that flower so that he can rot away the insides of a god while the young and ambitious god Lathander wreaks havoc on the planes... seems like a fun idea for a power like Moander.
Edit:
Alternatively, if you want a more Lathander focused start to the Cataclysm, we could have Tyche picking up the rose much later, and the first events of the Cataclysm could be Lathander encouraging mass change in the world through people such as Dharien (perhaps even through giving them roses), leading to the tidal wave that destroyed Jhaamdath. The Moander-Tyche thing then might happen shortly after that, as Tyche shows her support for Lathander after the death of Murdane by putting one of his flowers in her hair that she believes he cultivated especially for her - but it is in truth Moander (though she is still not struck by Selune until the 8th century DR). |
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Edited by - KanzenAU on 22 Apr 2017 07:02:40 |
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Gary Dallison
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 16:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well i never noticed the bit about the chosen of tyche dying nine times in the coils of moanders avatar.
I will of course make the chosen bit merely a title and the nine times death is likely an exaggeration of the wounds they sustained
Why? What does it matter if the Chosen really died nine times or if they were just a vanilla mortal? It doesn't change a single thing, either way. There is literally no benefit to making this absolutely pointless change, other than your desire to remove every trace of one of the core elements of the Realms. |
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Gary Dallison
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 18:04:48
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I'm not talking about Chosen, or having a date for some event, I'm talking about what you (ad nauseam) refer to as "god nonsense." Deific involvement is something Ed wrote in from the beginning, and you have expressed, time and time again, that you want all of it removed. This thing of turning a Chosen into a mortal and changing the circumstances of their demise is just another part of that.
And it takes away from the lore if the lore says it was a divine champion in a particular situation and you change that to just a regular person and a different situation. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Apr 2017 18:06:41 |
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Markustay
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 19:45:12
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Couple of things - I REALLY like what you did there with the theoretical timeline, KanzenAU - good stuff. Spreading the Dawn Cataclysm out over the course of a millennia fixes a boatload of problems (a bit overlong, but I see why, and also, 'a thousand years' seems to be one of those 'ages' deities like things to go by LOL).
My only real problem with it all is the fall of Jhaamdath - weren't the elves responsible for that? I don't recall any canon connection between it and the Dawn Cataclysm. Looking at the timeline, and the regions involved, perhaps the Dathite (I refuse to use 'Chondahan' as racial group - too confusing. You get stupidity like "The Chondathans founded Chondathan" in the history) displaced the Talfir on that side of the Vilhon (canonically they did displace the Turami from the northern part of what is now the know as The Old Empires, on into Turmish). So maybe the Talfir - having connections to Shar through their shadow magic - also had a hand in what happened to Jhaamdath? They may have caused the Elven High Magic Ritual to go awry (and to run with this new theory just a bit - psionic powers seem to be synergistic with Arcane magic, and I don't know of any instance where psionics boosted Shadow magic, so perhaps Shar had some stakes in it as well, not wanting a sudden spike in Mystryl's power due to a rising psionic nation).
So perhaps they were connected, but it would be more along the lines of 'the timing was right', rather than a direct correlation as you put forward (The DC having caused the Tidal Wave... if that were the case, I'd want Umberlee involved somehow...).
As for Moander planning ANYTHING, I'm just not seeing it. He is like Ghaunadaur's 'special' little brother. every time he reawakens, he does the same dumb crap that gets him immediately 'killed' again. I think the very first thing that rotted was his brain.
EDIT: I just thought of something. I've long had a sneaking suspicion that the Insipid Clans (I know its Incipient Clans, but ever since I accidentally called them that I find it amusing to continue to do so) are actually descendants of Jhaamdathi survivors. Now I am thinking, perhaps the Aumar (Aumvor?  ) clan was also descended from survivors, because Elminster also has latent psionic abilities (which is why he is even more powerful than other of Mystra's Chosen).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well i never noticed the bit about the chosen of tyche dying nine times in the coils of moanders avatar.
WAIT... where was that from? I scrolled up but can't seem to find it.
Moander did the 'Tentacle Hentai' thing with Tyche? No wonder the poor girl lost her mind...  |
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Apr 2017 20:04:24 |
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Gary Dallison
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Markustay
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 21:51:29
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You mean in the GhotR?
I've been researching Pelor, and I found some interesting stuff. He is pretty much the ONLY D&D 'good god' that allowed Half-Orc paladins, and even had at least one become one of his 'Saints' (Chosen). That once again lends credulity to the theory that Bane may have had something to do with Pelor (and Nerull), since we've already figured he's probably a half-orc when mortal (judging by his outward appearance). Unfortunately that wasn't 'Saint Bane', but it was a different one (Jalnir the Gentle), but nothing actually states Bane was human, either. He also had female Saints.
Pelor, BTW, only first started to appear in GH after 376 DR, which means if he was originally Aumantor, and went to Oerth, the timeline checks out. It also says that the events of the Greyhawk wars changed him - he is colder and more distant now (he used to be more like Lathander). Maybe he changed his ways when he got to Oerth, decided to try being a 'nice guy' god, and then after the GH wars he either changed back to how he was originally (he never really changed - underneath he was still the same guy), OR (and this works better for us), he left Greyspace after those wars, and someone else took up the mantle of Pelor. However, I prefer to think that he is multispheric, now.
And I have to wonder if all of this maybe-lore is directly a result of them using that GH illustration in the GHotR on pg.64, which just happens to be discussing the Dawn Cataclysm. In other words, they are now fudging things so they can play it off as an "I meant to do that" moment.
EDIT:
Almost forgot - Pelor's original name was Sol, just like the roman god of the sun! Could Aumanator also be Sol/Helios, and Lathander is his 'Apollo' (because the Greeks and Romans had two sun gods as well). Maybe he first came into the Realms with those 'warlike citystates' folk the Imaskari brought over (my theoretical 'Dathites'). That would have been early enough for him to have become a god of the Netherese, perhaps even absorbing two smaller gods that were native - A'tar and Aumon(sp?).
He was also called Al'Asran by the Baklunish, which is also somewhat similar to Aumanator (and in that guise he is said to have granted the legendary Cup and Talisman to Al'Akbar.)
He has a deep loathing of Tharizdun, and one of his paladins (Saint Pentival) was a foe of Acererak (both beings who have also migrated into Realmslore of late).
And there is a legend about some 'unamed kingdom' (why would they not remember the name? Was it not on Oerth?) where the forces of light battled evil humans, demons, and undead. Sounds like several wars in the unapproachable east, including the Great Conflagration. "An interesting detail is that this myth claims the sun's rays are the spirits of the righteous, a claim that no other Pelorian texts makes."
On the other hand, all of this stuff about him and 'Saints' seems to point even more to the fact that Lathander was probaly just one of his MANY disciples who 'made good' (took over after he left/was banished?) So connecting Latahnder to the Sundering or Godswar is looking worse now. I have to admit it was never a great fit, other than the stuff we had abut 'a second sun'(Lathander is a 'young god', comparatively - he just doesn't cut it as an 'Ancient, primordial power' like Aumanator does). |
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 02:25:42 |
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 22:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My only real problem with it all is the fall of Jhaamdath - weren't the elves responsible for that? I don't recall any canon connection between it and the Dawn Cataclysm.
The elves were responsible for it, but it's connected to the Dawn Cataclysm in that sermon in the GHotR. It's not a concrete connection, but with the faith of Lathander rising in that region (before -137) being so close to the tidal wave (-255), it's tempting to connect them.
I think it's very possible Lathander inspired Dharien, the fellow mentioned in a separate Jhaamdath cutaway in the GHotR that cut down the elves' forests, so in a way he is responsible for what followed. The elves did it, but he set in motion the events that would push them to it. After all, Dharien took over about -270, and Lathanderian priests ride out of the same region in -137 - so it's more than possible Lathander was active at that time.
Edit: The GHotR sermon also links Murdane's death to the Jhaamdath tidal wave. Again, it's not a concrete connection, but Helm does blame Lathander for Murdane's death, and so perhaps he blames Lathander for the wave - implying Lathander may have pushed the elves into doing it, which means that Lathander may have been behind Dharien's actions.
quote:
So perhaps they were connected, but it would be more along the lines of 'the timing was right', rather than a direct correlation as you put forward (The DC having caused the Tidal Wave... if that were the case, I'd want Umberlee involved somehow...).
I wouldn't rule out the Talfir being connected to the rise of Lathander instead of the Jhaamdathi, or even both, but I think the Jhaamdathi+Netherese explanation I posted is simpler. We could add in a thick layer of Shar, but it seems like an unnecessary complication to me.
As for Umberlee, I suspect she WAS involved - check out the GHotR sermon. The Dawn Cataclysm is supposed to involve a lot of things, a lot we don't know about. Perhaps Lathander planned on wiping the world clean with Umberlee's water, and then rebuilding it using the Jhaamdathi boat-builder, Noah-style? Or perhaps Umberlee offered up a great deal of aid to the elves of Nikerymath (maybe even by pretending to be Deep Sashelas)... anyway, the point is I think Umberlee was involved somehow.
quote:
As for Moander planning ANYTHING, I'm just not seeing it. He is like Ghaunadaur's 'special' little brother. every time he reawakens, he does the same dumb crap that gets him immediately 'killed' again. I think the very first thing that rotted was his brain.
Then like in my edit notes on the DC post, perhaps he didn't plan anything but just took advantage of the situation, faking to be a flower so he can have a shot at rotting away Tyche's insides. Slowly, over a millennia. |
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Edited by - KanzenAU on 23 Apr 2017 01:00:37 |
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Wrigley
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 00:11:51
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For me Lathander, Amaunator and Jergal are three separate gods that share control over a sun portfolio. It has three phases that changes in cycle of few thousand years and the power of the sun flows between them. This cycle is just another manifestation of ancient fight between Shar and Selune (creation and entropy). It is written that this fight created many gods. Amaunator's time was during height of Netheril Empire and it's doom came when Jergal came to reign (we know that Jergal was very strong god by the end of Netheril and Amaunator was slowly fading). He give most of his power to Dead Three at that time and this sealed doom of Jhaamdath when Bane influenced their general to take power into his hand and started conquest of Inner Sea (he needed a lot of wood for that forcing elves to act). We can than see a rocket rise of Lathander as his time came with Procession of Justice which started event known as Dawn Cataclysm - turmoil around retaking of power by Lathander. It has started changes in the Realms so vast (like supporting colonisation of Northern coast of Inner Sea) that it spelled doom for elven reign (Myth Drannor). Few gods even died during this turmoil which is commonly blamed on Lathander as he started it all.
I like the idea of Beshaba and Tymora being already lesser gods under Tyche and that they took her power before Moander could. It doesn't change much but makes more sense than popping up from her.
I have also Amaunator known as Ra in Mulhorandi population and that he started to distance himself little earlier from them (starting diefic supremancy battle of Osiris and Set). |
Edited by - Wrigley on 23 Apr 2017 00:14:33 |
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 01:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
He give most of his power to Dead Three at that time and this sealed doom of Jhaamdath when Bane influenced their general to take power into his hand and started conquest of Inner Sea (he needed a lot of wood for that forcing elves to act).
I wouldn't be surprised if Bane had some involvement with Dharien - he's a tyrant etc - but is this derived from any specific sources? Interested if there's a tie-in, if there is it would be one of the earliest FR Bane's actions as a god.
quote:
We can than see a rocket rise of Lathander as his time came with Procession of Justice which started event known as Dawn Cataclysm - turmoil around retaking of power by Lathander.
This thread is talking about the Three-Faced Sun heresy, the Dawn Cataclysm, AND the Procession of Justice? Damn, this is some good conversation!
Tyr and the Procession of Justice is complicated. Faiths and Pantheons has Tyr coming to Toril in -247 DR (8 years after the tidal wave), leading a force of archons to pacify what was the lawless ruins of Jhaamdath. I don't think this started the Dawn Cataclysm, but I do think it was a part of it.
However, Prayers of the Faithful has Tyr's worship occuring in Toril at around -2,700 DR, with his mightiest priests residing in modern Turmish - then likely part of Jhaamdath.Ed has expanded on this, saying that Tyr was a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, and he's been around since at least around -3,700 DR.
I take this as that Tyr was always a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, but he only physically came to Toril in -247 DR in the Procession of Justice, which was a response to the destruction of Jhaamdath. I believe that both the tidal wave and the Procession may be part of the long divine conflict later known as the Dawn Cataclysm.
quote:
It has started changes in the Realms so vast (like supporting colonisation of Northern coast of Inner Sea) that it spelled doom for elven reign (Myth Drannor). Few gods even died during this turmoil which is commonly blamed on Lathander as he started it all.
This is actually an interesting expansion on the idea of the Dawn Cataclysm being partly Lathander expanding his worship throughout the world. The founding of Chondathan (later Saerloon) and other cities during the years of the Dawn Cataclysm (my theory -300 to 700 DR) could be linked to the forceful exuberance of Lathander. I think it's too much to say that Lathander was solely responsible for the founding of these cities, but I think his Church may have been an important part of these societies, pushing for expansion.
Edit: In fact, the clashing of many cultures during this period as Netherese and Jhaamdathi expatriates expanded into other regions, joining and clashing with existing societies and forming new ones, may have even been a major part of the Dawn Cataclysm. Different pantheons would have been clashing against each other, likely resulting in the "Faerunian" pantheon coming into existence by the end of the Dawn Cataclysm! 
(Much as I would love to claim this concept, I'm pretty sure others have suggested it before) |
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Edited by - KanzenAU on 23 Apr 2017 01:52:08 |
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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 03:25:16
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I was postulating something similar in another thread, about the Norse. That Tyr may have had followers before he even arrived on Toril (if FR's Northmen are the same group as RW Northmen). It does make sense. given the mulitspheric nature of The Realms (Gates/portals), its quite possible a LOT of gods wind up in Realmspace at some point, because large numbers of their faithful find themselves there (like the Mulan - they drew from three pantheons). At a certain point, all that 'worship juice' (Elan) reaches critical mass, and Ao lets them interlope.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I like the idea of Beshaba and Tymora being already lesser gods under Tyche and that they took her power before Moander could. It doesn't change much but makes more sense than popping up from her.
I have also Amaunator known as Ra in Mulhorandi population and that he started to distance himself little earlier from them (starting diefic supremancy battle of Osiris and Set).
In his entry in F&P it says that some sages believe "he went into the east". I take that as Kara-Tur, but it could be relative; if Aumanator was only know in the Western Heartlands, than anything east (and south) of that could be construed as 'into the east' (so even if the entry says 'the eastern realms/Kara-Tur', they could have just been mistaken about how far he went). I like him as Ra, and its funny, because I was thinking about that as well, earlier today. If he is indeed Pelor, Pelor is closely associated with Rao, another GH god (although Rao isn't Ra/Re... as far as we know. It could just be another Alias Pelor operates under (with different portfolios, although they do compliment Ra's), or it could just be another one of his many 'ascended' followers (another deity - Mayaheine - is considered the other god he's closest too, and that one definitely was one of his 'saints' before gaining more power/worship).
I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?) |
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 03:26:02 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 03:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)
Consider that Selune and Lathander themselves tell the story of Tymora rising from the split Tyche in Tymora's Luck.
quote:
“When Tyche returned to her home in the outer planes, Selune, goddess of the moon, was there waiting to speak with her. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption eating away at her friend. Without a moment’s hesitation—” “—she lashed out,” said another voice (Selune), “with a bolt of purifying light that split Tyche down the center of her rotting core. All that was good and kind in Tyche coalesced into a single form and stepped out from Tyche’s rotting corpse. That was Tymora. I brought her forth from the tragedy of Tyche’s corruption, and she possessed power over good fortune.”
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Edited by - KanzenAU on 23 Apr 2017 03:32:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 05:36:25
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I've never read that novel, and I'm not sure why. I found a copy on my HD and its seems pretty good. I'll have to check it out when I have more time (I don't like reading on my comp - Ill have to buy a physical copy from somewhere). But there was this, right near the very beginning -
quote:
"The last time I saw a new universe blossom," Lathander said sadly, "Tyche was my companion. We lay on the back of a space whale and watched for a full year as the crystal spheres grew larger and spread apart and the stars inside them flickered to life and brightened."
"Tyche always did have too much time to fritter away," Chauntea muttered, scattering a handful of seed in the furrow before her. "I'm sorry, Lathander, but my work is more important."
"I want to share this with someone," Lathander insisted stubbornly.
"Well, Tyche is gone, and I am busy. You'll have to find someone else. Why don't you seek out Tyche's daughters, Beshaba or Tymora? Perhaps one of them has time to lie on the back of a space whale."
"Neither child is the same as her dam," Lathander complained. There was the faintest hint of a whine in his voice.
Interesting - they actually SAY that the two are Tyche's daughters. If anything, that supports the case they aren't from a split Tyche. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 05:38:30 |
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KanzenAU
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 05:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)
Consider that Selune and Lathander themselves tell the story of Tymora rising from the split Tyche in Tymora's Luck.
quote:
“When Tyche returned to her home in the outer planes, Selune, goddess of the moon, was there waiting to speak with her. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption eating away at her friend. Without a moment’s hesitation—” “—she lashed out,” said another voice (Selune), “with a bolt of purifying light that split Tyche down the center of her rotting core. All that was good and kind in Tyche coalesced into a single form and stepped out from Tyche’s rotting corpse. That was Tymora. I brought her forth from the tragedy of Tyche’s corruption, and she possessed power over good fortune.”
It could be metaphorical... Tymora already covered good luck, so all of Tyche's positive aspects went to her. She went from a saint or demipower to a full-on deity, in effect stepping forth from that which was once Tyche.
I'll agree that the stricter interpretation of canon that I generally stick with does make the split into two different entities a literal one. But we've also always had some built-in fuzziness with what is and isn't true -- Ed once said "The problem with concentrating on the latter is that mortals (PCs) just can never know the truth about divine matters; even the gods lie and distort, and their priesthoods certainly do."
If we run with that, we get more possibilities -- including both of the things I've proposed in this thread: that Lathander was once a servant of Amaunator and got promoted, and that Tyche's demise promoted her ranking servants Tymora and Beshaba. It's not unprecedented in Realmslore; Gwaeron Windstrom was once a mortal and got promoted by Mielikki. |
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 06:12:52
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I agree that it's possible, I just don't particularly see the use in inventing a non-canon explanation for something that already has a canon explanation. The canon explanation could be a lie or a half-truth, absolutely, but I personally prefer to not go against established canon except when there are contradictions in the lore, which there aren't in the case of Tyche being split into Tymora and Beshaba.
It's still an interesting theory, and I've said my piece on it, so please continue! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 13:35:22
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Bane being a half-orc is an incredibly tenuous connection to anything. His appearance in F&P is nothing like how we've seen him in any appearance; his avatar in 1e looked more like a militant Aku, in 2e he preferred possession, in his last novel appearance he looked like Morgoth. Even in religious art, he appears as a robed figure wearing a gauntlet.
I mean, not all deities actually looked like how they were supposed to in F&P. Bane looking a lot like Xvim (because that's actually closer to how Xvim looks like) makes sense because he was using Xvim as his puppet, and only returned to his true form when he was fully free from Xvim.
You're also going to have to retcon the fact that Amaunator's corpse was in the Astral Plane and his realm was in Mechanus. Pelor's realm is in Elysium.
Yet again, why is everyone ignoring the fact that Amaunator is closest in description to Pholtus, not Pelor? Big P is closer to Lathander, while Pholtus essentially IS Amaunator. About the only reason everyone seems fixated on Pelor is because Pelor's the more famous of the two. Next we'll have people saying that Mystra is Boccob, because they're both greater gods of magic.
Because that's the literal only connection between Pelor and Amaunator. They're both greater powers of the sun.
Ammy: LN, Bureaucracy, contracts, law, order, the sun, rulership
Pelor: NG, Sun, Light, Strength, Healing
Pholtus: LN, Light, Resolve, Law, Order, Inflexibility, the Sun, the Moons |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 14:50:47
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He has a summer home?
And Mystra is Wee Jas.
Just did a quick search of Pholtus. Not a lot there, but he does have 'light' in his portfolio, which I was unaware of. Still not a 'sun god' though, and THAT is the main reason for connecting Pelor and Aumanator. The Planescape Wiki does list at least one other planet he is worshiped on (Ortho), making him multispheric. Strangely, the PS Wiki doesn't really have an entry for Pelor (some rudimentary stat stuff, but no descriptive text/info), so we don't know if he is multispheric or not.
It really comes down to that stupid pic in the GHotR that shows a Priest of Pelor talking about the Dawn Cataclysm, and the only reason why that exists is because they recycled some GH art.
Bane as a half-orc just makes him more interesting, IMO, but I can see what you're saying about Xvim (was Xvim's mother an orc?) We still have the oddness of 'Core' ane and FR Bane from 4e, so a lot of conjecture is now being focused on reconciling that (be he Half-Orc or not). By creating stuff around Nerull (and thus around Pelor) about 'The Banes', it makes more sense, especially given what we have about Mellifleur in MM (because we get to fix the conundrum with 'undead gods' as well).
It doesn't really matter - 'canon' isn't what it used to be, and the blame for that falls squarely on 4e. It doesn't matter what we say, or even what WotC says anymore - everyone's going to have their Realms their way. It actually should have been that way all along - maybe 4e was 'tough love'? Weird, me thinking that now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 14:52:09 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 15:50:04
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
He give most of his power to Dead Three at that time and this sealed doom of Jhaamdath when Bane influenced their general to take power into his hand and started conquest of Inner Sea (he needed a lot of wood for that forcing elves to act).
I wouldn't be surprised if Bane had some involvement with Dharien - he's a tyrant etc - but is this derived from any specific sources? Interested if there's a tie-in, if there is it would be one of the earliest FR Bane's actions as a god.
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We can than see a rocket rise of Lathander as his time came with Procession of Justice which started event known as Dawn Cataclysm - turmoil around retaking of power by Lathander.
This thread is talking about the Three-Faced Sun heresy, the Dawn Cataclysm, AND the Procession of Justice? Damn, this is some good conversation!
It is only a conjecture. There was a military coup in region we know Bane started with right after he became god.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Tyr and the Procession of Justice is complicated. Faiths and Pantheons has Tyr coming to Toril in -247 DR (8 years after the tidal wave), leading a force of archons to pacify what was the lawless ruins of Jhaamdath. I don't think this started the Dawn Cataclysm, but I do think it was a part of it.
However, Prayers of the Faithful has Tyr's worship occuring in Toril at around -2,700 DR, with his mightiest priests residing in modern Turmish - then likely part of Jhaamdath.Ed has expanded on this, saying that Tyr was a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, and he's been around since at least around -3,700 DR.
I personaly do not like Tyr for he seems to me redundant and too much into the face copy of RW (I know there are other RW gods but Tyr hits me the most) and I have basicaly used Torm instead. I see Procession of Justice as a birth of Triad and I am including Lathander for he was strangely overlooked by Triad anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I take this as that Tyr was always a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, but he only physically came to Toril in -247 DR in the Procession of Justice, which was a response to the destruction of Jhaamdath. I believe that both the tidal wave and the Procession may be part of the long divine conflict later known as the Dawn Cataclysm.
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It has started changes in the Realms so vast (like supporting colonisation of Northern coast of Inner Sea) that it spelled doom for elven reign (Myth Drannor). Few gods even died during this turmoil which is commonly blamed on Lathander as he started it all.
This is actually an interesting expansion on the idea of the Dawn Cataclysm being partly Lathander expanding his worship throughout the world. The founding of Chondathan (later Saerloon) and other cities during the years of the Dawn Cataclysm (my theory -300 to 700 DR) could be linked to the forceful exuberance of Lathander. I think it's too much to say that Lathander was solely responsible for the founding of these cities, but I think his Church may have been an important part of these societies, pushing for expansion.
He did not directly found the cities but his domain are new beginings so he supported that as much as he could for he needed to be advertised.
For the dating of DC I still believe we could agree about aproximate start and we have only mention about Myth Drannor as consequence of it. Such a large undertaking as DC have usualy very long period when actions taken echoes and are felt directly or indirectly over many years and it is hard to say when it ended. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 16:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I like the idea of Beshaba and Tymora being already lesser gods under Tyche and that they took her power before Moander could. It doesn't change much but makes more sense than popping up from her.
I have also Amaunator known as Ra in Mulhorandi population and that he started to distance himself little earlier from them (starting diefic supremancy battle of Osiris and Set).
In his entry in F&P it says that some sages believe "he went into the east". I take that as Kara-Tur, but it could be relative; if Aumanator was only know in the Western Heartlands, than anything east (and south) of that could be construed as 'into the east' (so even if the entry says 'the eastern realms/Kara-Tur', they could have just been mistaken about how far he went). I like him as Ra, and its funny, because I was thinking about that as well, earlier today. If he is indeed Pelor, Pelor is closely associated with Rao, another GH god (although Rao isn't Ra/Re... as far as we know. It could just be another Alias Pelor operates under (with different portfolios, although they do compliment Ra's), or it could just be another one of his many 'ascended' followers (another deity - Mayaheine - is considered the other god he's closest too, and that one definitely was one of his 'saints' before gaining more power/worship).
Amaunator being Ra means he had to be there much sooner to be the main god of Mulhorandi people even before their abduction. I have them as original population of Zakhara so I do not deal with multispheric Pelor/stuff. Other mulhorandi gods are originaly beast lords he possibly elevated?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)
As Tyche was a goddess of Fate I can easily imagine that some people needed more specific gods to relate to and thus Tymora and Beshaba were born. It was surely a work of Tyche and we can say what way they came to be goddesses. From what was written in novels I do not see a problem contradicting this version as Wooly already explained.
For Bane I have him originaly as pure orc (Vorbyx?) from Moonsea who deliberately hide this to relate to more followers. He got together with Netheries necromancer and calimshan tiefling around Westgate and started a legendary trip to the stars :-)
(I have used Murghom necromancer origin for Velsharoon) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 16:19:49
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| About the Pelor/Amaunator thing... I've been avoiding that one because I'm weak on Greyhawk stuff. I would question, though, why the different names if they're the same entity -- other multispheric deities use the same name all over the place. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 16:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I agree that it's possible, I just don't particularly see the use in inventing a non-canon explanation for something that already has a canon explanation. The canon explanation could be a lie or a half-truth, absolutely, but I personally prefer to not go against established canon except when there are contradictions in the lore, which there aren't in the case of Tyche being split into Tymora and Beshaba.
It's still an interesting theory, and I've said my piece on it, so please continue!
I can did that. I'd say, though, that it's not as much a non-canon explanation as it is an expansion on a canon one.
As I've commented before, if there's nothing in canon that definitively addresses something, then you have a gray area there to play in. Nothing in canon says there isn't a werecat priestess of Selûne named Terielle Nashirn among the Lords of Waterdeep -- so canon is not violated by putting that character in that position. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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