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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  06:45:38  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well you might have come across something I missed. Ill have a look and see what I can find

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dazzlerdal
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3506 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  20:31:38  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I've had a look over my collected notes and thoughts and here is what I'm thinking.

1 - The sidebar is a mistake. The human kingdom of Thar was in 1288 DR and it was destroyed in 1303 DR. The sidebar was referring to the human kingdom but the dating was slightly amiss.

2 - The sidebar is referring to a human presence that hasn't been mentioned thus far. The human kingdom of Thar was forged from something. It is likely that Beldoran hired a bunch of mercenaries (I think with Zhent gold, and gold from other Moonsea cities), but the people that formed the human kingdom of Thar were already there, bootleggers, prospecters, small farmsteaders, etc. Glister exists as a sort of nomadic settlement that has been present in many places across Thar (which is why it survived). It is likely the people in Thar were the remains of Barze, Horreb, and barbarians from the Ride.
To support this a humanoid horde swept out of Thar in 1270 DR and destroyed Hulberg and Sulasspryn which prompted the later occupation of the citadel. The humanoid horde likely evicted any human settlement in Thar (temporarily) and it is my personal theory that Manshoon aided the creation of the horde to get the Moonsea to cooperate and rebuild the citadel. In this scenario the humanoids and humans lived side by side (with lots of fighting and raiding) in the region but not in any organised kingdom until the humanoids rose up and killed or drove away the humans


3 - The sidebar is referring (inarticulately) to the last human kingdoms that existed in the region that would later be known as Thar (Barze, Horreb, Varm, etc) which were destroyed and the land then occupied by ogres (the beastmen) and their orc servants.


My personal preference I think is for scenario 2 as it is most supported by dates recent to 1276 DR.

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perlmugp
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Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  04:03:13  Show Profile  Visit perlmugp's Homepage Send perlmugp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree scenario 2 makes the most since. I don't think it's a mistake because the sidebar takes the form of a quote from a bard in 1299 DR so it doesn't make that he'd be referring to the end of the human kingdom 4 years in the future, so scenario 1 is out. And the other earlier kingdoms all ended much too long ago to be what he's referring to, so scenario 3 is out.

There is a hint to the remnants of those earlier kingdoms, or at least some other human presence, being in Thar after their respective falls. Journal Entry 15 from the end of the Monument of the Ancients mentions that when Phlan was founded they traded with "primitive human tribes of Thar". Maybe those tribes continued in Thar for long enough to be known or remembered by a bard in 1299 DR.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I've had a look over my collected notes and thoughts and here is what I'm thinking.

1 - The sidebar is a mistake. The human kingdom of Thar was in 1288 DR and it was destroyed in 1303 DR. The sidebar was referring to the human kingdom but the dating was slightly amiss.

2 - The sidebar is referring to a human presence that hasn't been mentioned thus far. The human kingdom of Thar was forged from something. It is likely that Beldoran hired a bunch of mercenaries (I think with Zhent gold, and gold from other Moonsea cities), but the people that formed the human kingdom of Thar were already there, bootleggers, prospecters, small farmsteaders, etc. Glister exists as a sort of nomadic settlement that has been present in many places across Thar (which is why it survived). It is likely the people in Thar were the remains of Barze, Horreb, and barbarians from the Ride.
To support this a humanoid horde swept out of Thar in 1270 DR and destroyed Hulberg and Sulasspryn which prompted the later occupation of the citadel. The humanoid horde likely evicted any human settlement in Thar (temporarily) and it is my personal theory that Manshoon aided the creation of the horde to get the Moonsea to cooperate and rebuild the citadel. In this scenario the humanoids and humans lived side by side (with lots of fighting and raiding) in the region but not in any organised kingdom until the humanoids rose up and killed or drove away the humans


3 - The sidebar is referring (inarticulately) to the last human kingdoms that existed in the region that would later be known as Thar (Barze, Horreb, Varm, etc) which were destroyed and the land then occupied by ogres (the beastmen) and their orc servants.


My personal preference I think is for scenario 2 as it is most supported by dates recent to 1276 DR.


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The Emerald Sage
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38 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2016 :  11:24:59  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is all great fodder for adventures in the realms and I still feel like I'm only getting to know the Western Heartlands!
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2016 :  12:31:57  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Thar is actually located in the moonsea region or just north of it but I'm glad you are finding this stuff useful, it was fun researching everything and figuring it out

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The Emerald Sage
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38 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2016 :  20:45:12  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well Thar is actually located in the moonsea region or just north of it but I'm glad you are finding this stuff useful, it was fun researching everything and figuring it out



That's sort of what I meant, it's a little intimidating appreciating just how much information there is out there. The western heartlands held the most interest for me down through the years and yet I'm still uncovering new details concerning that country.

As regards Thar I really like the details concerning the half-orc dragon brood, the ogre chieftains and so on. And yes, it stands to reason that the area was victim to the destruction brought on by a Rage of Dragons or some such event at some point in the past.

Kudos anyway!

Edited by - The Emerald Sage on 12 Jan 2016 20:45:49
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  18:40:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I LOVE this scroll.
I went looking for info on Citadel Ankhalus (which you mentioned in your timeline), and found so much more, I'm mapping Thar right now (not that I wanted to, but if I don't get this highly-convoluted and ever-changing region 'just right', it will never line-up correctly with the north shore of the Moonsea, which IS on my current map). Anyhow, I did a really fast speed-read through it, so maybe I missed it, but there is someone you mention over and over again - Iyrauroth - who is that?

Also, Dazzler, you mentioned that timeline was your 'rough one', and that you'd post the refined one later. Did you ever get around to doing that? Also, we never really got anywhere with the thri-Kreen stuff - it was just sort of dropped.

Anyhow, that one mention of Citadel Ankhalus - is that canon? Where is that from? It falls out in the same spot as 'Vaprak's hammer' (which I believe is an Ogre tribe) on another map, and I was trying to figure-out if there as any relation.

I really need to pull Brian James into this - there are several things on the map for the Thar/Moonsea area that were not mentioned in MotA.

Also, I don't know if you missed it, but in something you quoted you may have found yet-another Thar/Moonsea kingdom - "conquered the Horreb and The Vane". Who were 'The Vane'? Could that have been the name of 'the People of the Black Sails'? (and I am thinking probably something along a coastal citystate thats now long gone.)

Also, you mention one or two articles by Ed (Forging the Realms, I think) - any chance you have copies or links to those?

Lastly, does anyone have links (anymore) to those bestiaries by Tom and Eric? I used to have them a long time ago, but I never got a chance to re-download them. Of course, RAS re-purposed the Orog name (I think) to be a type of half-fiend Orc, so there's that (which may possibly help us, depending on who Iyrauroth is). However, if those orcs bred with Ogre-Magi (which are ALSO now half-fiends), that could be very easy to mesh together. I am fascinated by the idea the ogres were once smarter and more culturally sophisticated than they are now. In the south I just assumed they had been breeding with hill giants for years (bigger and dumber ogres), but apparently there may be some curse or other outside agency involved with the northern ogres. I NEED to know more about these 'Elder Ogres'!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 21:05:39
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  19:31:39  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, that was a long time ago.

So answering your questions.

Who is Iyrauroth. Well Iyrauroth is a black dragon that lives in the Thar region somewhere. He gets a few mentions in the histories involving the orc kingdom of thar. I threw together all the mentions of Thar into one word document and started to notice ancient black dragons all over the place interfering in politics in Thar (and the Vast).
So i connected a lot of dots and either i hit the nail on the head or i managed to link my brain to Eds because shortly after two forging the realms articles were released which supported just about everything i thought.

Iyrauroth struck a bargain with the ogres of Thar to bring down Northkeep. The ogre kingdom of Thar failed and so he reestablished it using half orc half ogres he had bred from the genetics of the line of ogre kings. He helped the orcs of Thar and Vastar reunite and used them to get hold of the Annasherion (look in ravens bluff for that one) to power an uber ritual to make him a super dragon. Unfortinately when he demanded payment of ogre thars debts Ologh refused and a massive fight occured between orc king and dragon which the orc king lost but the dragon never got the annasherion (it ended up beneath ravens bluff). I wrote up a big article on Iyrauroth in one of my alternate realms articles (issue 1 2 or 3 i think).
Iyrauroth is one dangerous mother, not only for his power, but also because no one has ever heard about him.


I have copies of the forging the realms articles and the bestiaries one and two so i will email them over if i can find your address.

As for the thri kreen, i did settle on what i think they are after i was working on netheril and george came up with that awesome jergal article. The thri kreen of horreb are not thri kreen at all they are a fusion of humans with the essence of soellweavers in a horrible accident that created a new insectoid race which looks like thri kreen (and we all know what happens when something looks similar - it gets stereotyped).
There are pyramids across the north. They are spellweaver nodes. There is one in the monument of the ancients, one on sorcerers isle in the moonsea, one in thunderholme, and some in ascore. The nodes in the moonsea were outcast spellweavers and they used the nodes to imprison powerful beings and draw the energy from them (why do you think Maram was there). The big spellweaver conjunction broke all that and the spell weavers in sorcerers isle got trapped in an ethereal prison. They took to possessing humans (their former slaves) and this worked for a long time until karsus broke the weave and they all got stuck as human spellweaver hybrids. They still had all the civilisation of before but tyranthraxus and his armies shattered that and eventually the people degenerated into barbaric thrikreen like people.
At least thats how i spin it. It ties up a few loose ends without involving civilisations on the other side of the world (which i dont like doing)

No idea about the Vane or the People of the Black Sails. I suspect (or vaguely recall) that the Vane may have been a tribe of barbarian peoples from The Ride in which case they are likely a mix of Rengarth, Low Netherese (yes i distinguish the two) and the people that lived there all along.


I love going on about Thar. It was my first alternate realms project and is soooo interesting i could talk about it all day, plus it ties in nicely to Netheril which i love just as much).

As for elder ogres. I peg them as unique individuals (i forget the guys name who founded ogre thar) that managed to escape Annams curse somehow. He bred with the ogres already there to make something more than a normal ogre, but not much more. The oni i peg as having arrived later. I think the oni come from Storms band in the Hidden Valley in Netheril which i made as half demon half ogres bred by a feyri clan of siluvanede sent to destroy netheril for stealing the artifacts present in the last dlardrageth armoury that Finder plundered millennia before. Its a long story but i like distant consequences to events.


Give me a few hours and ill email you what ive got on thar. Not much geographical and a lot termed homebrew (and its my early work so less polished than the drivel i produce now), but you can take what you will from it.

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Edited by - dazzlerdal on 12 Sep 2017 19:46:16
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  19:43:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I have copies of the forging the realms articles and the bestiaries one and two so i will email them over if I can find your address.
Markustay2012@hotmail.com

And thanks



P.S. - so you never did a newer version of the timeline? Or did I just miss it somehow? Anyhow, hopefully a new map of the region will get everyone (including you) excited again - there is SO MUCH on so many different maps; once I start combining it all its going to be almost as crowded as Cormyr!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 21:03:22
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  19:47:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure if i did the newer timeline or not. Everything i do evolves with each region so its different now after doing netheril.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  21:06:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still trying to figure out what Citadel Ankhalus is from; thats what got me started with re-reading this thread.

BTW, Manshoon used to ride a Huge Black dragon - I forget its name* (its in Spellfire). I'm thinking it may have been related to Iyrauroth. He seemed pretty damned upset when it got toasted.

Hmmmmm... you don't suppose Manshoon IS Iyrauroth?



*I just checked - its name was Orlgaun. Probably short for something with WAY too many letters.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 21:22:20
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30290 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  21:24:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm still trying to figure out what Citadel Ankhalus is from; thats what got me started with re-reading this thread.

BTW, Manshoon used to ride a Huge Black dragon - I forget its name (its in Spellfire). I'm thinking it may have been related to Iyrauroth. He seemed pretty damned upset when it got toasted.

Hmmmmm... you don't suppose Manshoon IS Iyrauroth?



Iyrauroth rather predates Manshoon. Cult of the Dragon has Iyrauroth active in 572 DR; Manshoon was born in 1229 DR.

Manshoon's fallen mount was Orlgaun. I don't think we have much info about him, other than Manshoon rode him and he died due to wounds taking fighting Shandril Shessair.

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
455 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  21:41:21  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I sent out Bestiaries 1 and 2 and Prestige in the Realms.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  22:12:06  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the citadel you want is in the ruins of zhentil keep boxed set. Its an old fortress used sometime when zhentil keep was named flostrens hold and was the site of a battle where some wizards got fried.

Iyrauroth and manshoom have a connection through the cult of the dragon i think. Manshoon influenced the formation of that mini flight of dragons in the moonsea and dalelands. Iyrauroth undoubtedly provided quite a few dragons to it. He is in command of more than a few younger dragons and he is not above thinning their ranks periodically to maintain his position (as the attack on northkeep shows).

I wouldnt be surprised if iyrauroth and manshoon were playing a game of chess of sorts for control of the moonsea.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  22:16:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Tom!!!

Now I'm stuck on 'Bone Tower' - so much stuff appeared on maps of that region that didn't get any info. Anyone have a link to the old Thar article written by Rich Baker? The old link (back on pg.3, I think) is dead now. I have the map, just not the article. My Google-Fu isn't working so well* (I know there is at least one archive of old articles somewhere).

And I am surprised no-one's ever tried to connect the region to Tharizdun. Of course, he hasn't had a lot of realms 'face time' until recently. Spellweavers just feel wrong for the region, but then again, so do Thr-Kreen. Maybe Spellweavers are a highly-evolved (from the future?) form of Thri-kreen? And we have ogres, some sahuagin, and even an orc or three with four arms... seems the spellweavers were trying to do the 'Creator Race' thing themselves. Maybe they view 'four arms' (six appendages) as 'the perfect form', and anything less offensive (an unevolved animal).


*Ha ha! Got it! " The Google-Fu is strong in this one".
You'll have to C&P, because its the kind of link CK hates - https://web.archive.org/web/20130531140238/http://www.wizards.com/DND/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071217a

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 22:19:43
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  07:26:13  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the spellweavers havent been in the region for 30000 years, what is left is a degenerate hybrid version. Plus the moonsea is little with ancient places of power built by magic powerful races that vanished. We could use the creator races line again and again or maybe its time for something different.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  23:49:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I would pull 'mankind' out of the original list and replace them with an insectoid race (like, perhaps, the spellweavers).

Humans can go with giants and dragons - 'secondary creators'. I'd say elves as well, but elves are already a creation themselves (of the Fey).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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