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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5836 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  07:36:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, for that matter, on the "where" Amaunator came from. Yes, there's Pelor as a possibility, just using the name of Amaunator or having been the original. Hell, there's also the vestige called Amon from Tome of Magic. It specifically says in that

"Although Amon once rules as a deity of light and justice, his long existence as a vestige has twisted him into a monster consumed by wrath." AND

"Scholars claim that Amon is what remains of the personality of a god who died of neglect millennia ago. Once worshipped by thousands, Amon eventually lost his faithful to more responsive deities. His will was strong enough, though, to resist eternal sleep on the astral plane. Since his demise, his half-existence as a vestige seems to have dramatically changed his appearance and personality. Once a calm and wise protector, a god of light and law, Amon is now a foul-tempered and hateful spirit." AND

"Amon particularly despises four other vestiges: Chupoclops, Eurynome, Karsus, and Leraje" and then says, "The reason for Amon's displeasure with these vestiges is unclear, but the enmity is as old as anyone can remember. Binder scholars theorize that it might stem from the time when Amon was a god and the other four were normal mortal or immortal beings."

So, of them all Karsus is definitely from Toril. He caused the fall of Netheril. After Netheril's fall, Amaunator disappeared. I could see the enmity. It would fit into things if somehow the spellplague or the creation of the small sun in northern faerun caused his release. Of the other beings, Chupoclops and Eurynome both appear to be primordials that perhaps fought with the gods/estellar. Why Leraje? Dunno, but rereading her entry reminds me why Corellon is a dick.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  08:43:20  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR



Even post-Sundering novels have examples of deities directly manifesting on Toril, WotC simply doesn't care about consistency anymore.

In any case, I like this new development. I never liked "X is actually an aspect of Y", so I'm totally fine with this new change. Canon has already become a mess anyway.



I think FR died a slow death since 2E. 3E started out okay. Then 3.5's becoming a mess with Myth Drannor, Netheril, Imaskar back and all. Then 4E is an absolute disaster. I can't even motivate myself to follow what crap's coming in 5E anymore. I just know that the last Drizzt book series by RAS is crap and I hope there will be no more Drizzt



You arr entirely correct in my opinion. I hate this god drivel and the mary sue stories, it is not what the realms was supposed to be about.

Who the gods really are affects precisely no one in the gaming world. Why is nobody trying to discover Khelben's past identities (because wotc ended that plot line), or where the manshoon clones are (they ended that one too), or who elminsters kids are (ended), or what massive complex the haunted halls of eveningstar are really connected too (probably ended), or the history of chessenta (ended), or any other number of plot lines that wotc ended and replaced with which god is which and which god is controlling who, and which god has the most powerful supertroll.


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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  09:32:48  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, some of us find it interesting. And the gods do affect my game, at the very least through their churches. Part of this for me is figuring out what the derp the situation might be in Waterdeep's Spires of the Morning (under the power of Amaunator's clergy in 1479) now that Lathander's back. The story of such a struggle could be an interesting event in any Waterdeep campaign.

Back to the topic though, I also find it interesting that Amaunator's specialty priests in Faiths and Avatars can only be lawful neutral or lawful evil: no room for good?

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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LordofBones
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419 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  13:36:02  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Man, poor Pelor. Amaunator is Pholtus in all but name, but it's Pelor that gets the blame.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  14:29:12  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am my father in all but name. I look that same, i act the same, i sound the same, i think the same (mostly).

I am however an entirely different person, but to a lesser lifeform (maybe a dog) that i only communicated with via dreams, i could understand if they got me confused with someone else.

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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  01:28:24  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's probably time for me to move on from this, but I just keep thinking about it!

Just read these bits in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
Within these spheres of influence (eg. Faerunian sphere), while more than one deity may have similar portfolios, no more than one of such parallel powers can ascend in deific stature to a higher rank than demipower.

Long before the Time of Troubles, Ao evidently created some of the powers of the Realms, as well as the crystal sphere of Realmspace. However, he left the Realms powers to change and evolve for millennia untold before deciding that he needed to readjust the balance of the Realms and set in motion the events of the Time of Troubles.


Back in the day of Netheril, as far as we know, there is no Lathander, just Amaunator. I think the Netherese were Toril natives, so perhaps Amaunator was one of these first gods Ao birthed.

Then within a couple of hundred years of the fall of Netheril, we get Lathander - possibly first worshipped by the Talfir, as their own take on the sun god, partly based on Netherese legend, but mixed with their own culture (idea based on Races of Faerun). My theory is that this births the god Lathander from the divine power of Amaunator - as a separate power. Amaunator goes on for a little while but continues to fade, while Lathander grows in power.

Then a millenia and a half later, during the Age of Upheaval, we get Daelegoth Orndeir, the potential destruction of the House of Nature, the binding of Cyric, and finally the disappearance of Lathander and the rise of Amaunator. The divine struggle over the power of the sun results in Lathander being reduced to a demipower and being bound away by Amaunator, who attempts to resubsume his "child".

Then the Sundering happens, and Lathander manages to partly free himself. Through his Chosen he reinvigorates his faith in Faerun, hanging on - however, he is still potentially only a demipower, as the divine struggle over the "portfolio" (not exactly) of the sun goes on. Or, with Ao's "unshackling" of the portfolios in the Sundering (as mentioned by Sernett), the demipower-thing now longer applies, and they can both be whatever power level is appropriate.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 01:31:33
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5836 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  02:28:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR



Even post-Sundering novels have examples of deities directly manifesting on Toril, WotC simply doesn't care about consistency anymore.

In any case, I like this new development. I never liked "X is actually an aspect of Y", so I'm totally fine with this new change. Canon has already become a mess anyway.



I think FR died a slow death since 2E. 3E started out okay. Then 3.5's becoming a mess with Myth Drannor, Netheril, Imaskar back and all. Then 4E is an absolute disaster. I can't even motivate myself to follow what crap's coming in 5E anymore. I just know that the last Drizzt book series by RAS is crap and I hope there will be no more Drizzt



You arr entirely correct in my opinion. I hate this god drivel and the mary sue stories, it is not what the realms was supposed to be about.

Who the gods really are affects precisely no one in the gaming world. Why is nobody trying to discover Khelben's past identities (because wotc ended that plot line), or where the manshoon clones are (they ended that one too), or who elminsters kids are (ended), or what massive complex the haunted halls of eveningstar are really connected too (probably ended), or the history of chessenta (ended), or any other number of plot lines that wotc ended and replaced with which god is which and which god is controlling who, and which god has the most powerful supertroll.





Man Daz, this stuff does affect the game world, and you know it. A lot of what I've been discussing drives my thoughts about what happened over in Abeir. I know you don't care what happened in Abeir, but for those of us who realize that we're going to have to accept it if we want to continue looking at new product.... best thing to do is figure out how to make it work. Personally, having all those regions return without having godly contact for a century would just suck. So instead, figure out a way that they did. Figure out which gods did what, and thus how the cultures on the other side got shaped (because religion does shape cultures), and then take that into account when they come back.

Are there a lot of old history things that can be explored? Sure. But honestly does that open up any new options? We can wish they'll do a 5e campaign setting that tells us who is the ruler over each Faerunian city, etc... but honestly, I'd rather see some exploration outside of Faerun with some minor updates to Faerun... just enough to kind of let us know some major happenings and let it grow organically. Meanwhile, these other places can start interacting more. I mean, we have spelljammers, flying ships, portals, etc.... it should be expected more that the world of Toril starts moving away from points of light and more towards an interconnected model again. That's its strength.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5836 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  02:40:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

It's probably time for me to move on from this, but I just keep thinking about it!

Just read these bits in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
Within these spheres of influence (eg. Faerunian sphere), while more than one deity may have similar portfolios, no more than one of such parallel powers can ascend in deific stature to a higher rank than demipower.

Long before the Time of Troubles, Ao evidently created some of the powers of the Realms, as well as the crystal sphere of Realmspace. However, he left the Realms powers to change and evolve for millennia untold before deciding that he needed to readjust the balance of the Realms and set in motion the events of the Time of Troubles.


Back in the day of Netheril, as far as we know, there is no Lathander, just Amaunator. I think the Netherese were Toril natives, so perhaps Amaunator was one of these first gods Ao birthed.

Then within a couple of hundred years of the fall of Netheril, we get Lathander - possibly first worshipped by the Talfir, as their own take on the sun god, partly based on Netherese legend, but mixed with their own culture (idea based on Races of Faerun). My theory is that this births the god Lathander from the divine power of Amaunator - as a separate power. Amaunator goes on for a little while but continues to fade, while Lathander grows in power.

Then a millenia and a half later, during the Age of Upheaval, we get Daelegoth Orndeir, the potential destruction of the House of Nature, the binding of Cyric, and finally the disappearance of Lathander and the rise of Amaunator. The divine struggle over the power of the sun results in Lathander being reduced to a demipower and being bound away by Amaunator, who attempts to resubsume his "child".

Then the Sundering happens, and Lathander manages to partly free himself. Through his Chosen he reinvigorates his faith in Faerun, hanging on - however, he is still potentially only a demipower, as the divine struggle over the "portfolio" (not exactly) of the sun goes on. Or, with Ao's "unshackling" of the portfolios in the Sundering (as mentioned by Sernett), the demipower-thing now longer applies, and they can both be whatever power level is appropriate.



Bear this in mind as well, at any given time, there's been several sun gods active in the realms at once. Quite possibly at the same time we may have had Amaunator, Lathander, Ra, Utu, Tezca... and that is just from human pantheons (not to mention great spirits up in Anchorome)... plus probably some gods down in Zakhara/Kara-Tur/Malatra. Now, we might be able to say that some of those are the same, but never all of them. Some are evil bastards, some are good, some couldn't leave the material plane, etc... I'm sure if we start digging into other racial pantheons we'll find even more. Then there's the information we have that the sun is basically a planet with portals to the plane of fire all over it, so basically the sun itself probably has more ties to Kossuth than anyone.

So, what does it really mean to be "the sun god" because you obviously aren't in full control of the sun? It basically means "look at me I'm shiny" and usually that you don't like undead. Maybe it means something like the chosen of a god, in that you hold a portion of the suns power... so that if you die the other sun gods can keep the sun going.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  03:33:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And then there is the 'dead sun god' - the one that was killed during the Godwar in Realmspace (the War of Light & Darkness). I've been thinking for awhile now that this is a piece of misinformation. or rather, 'innaccurate reporting' in-game, but as we know from a meta-game perspective, really we have newer lore that overwrites some of this. So maybe we can mend it all somehow?

What if, after that first World was destroyed, the various Ordials (Overpowers - Supernals, Eternals, etc) gathered the shattered remnants and began to build the Spheres; I picture beings of immense power - power that would dwarf even that of gods. Ad I picture them 'singing' ("The Music of the Spheres"), but it isn't the type of music you here with your ears - you hear it with your soul. And then the Spheres begin to coalesce, the Overpowers taking this and that out, moving things around, rebuilding the first world in a million imperfect reflections. Each has the material they've gathered stashed in a side-plane, just out of sync with Reality, and they use this extra substance in their work. But Ao begins work on the most important part - the Prime world of the sphere, and for this he has saved a very special piece - he has the heart of Ymir, the firmament, kept beating by the sacrifice of Gaea, as she melded with the lifeless form of her decaying brother. And while the remains of the deceased Ordial made up the firmament, the magical essence that was Gaea - the 'Mana' - was also congealed into a being who would embody the magic and lifeforce of the sphere, the two-faced goddess* Mysharona. Thus the Prime Material as a crystal sphere is neither dead nor alive, but both, caught in a never-ending cycle of rebirth, maintained by the dual-natured goddess of magic.

And because Ao used the heart to form the core of Toril (adding more material as he worked from his 'stash'), this world was unique, in that it had connections to all other, like an echo of the circulatory system of the comatose Ordial, with conduits running all over the multiverse. In this endeavor the two aspects of Magic - Selūne and Shar - helped him, and they called this network the Road of Stars and Shadows. And when the rough world was finished being shaped by Ao, the conjoined sisters breathed life upon it, and Chauntea was born.

But Chauntea desired warmth in which to grow, and here "the two-who-were-one became divided, as for the first time they were of two minds".** Gaining the upper hand, Selūne ignited a world to warm Chauntea (the first sun), but Shar, in her fury, destroyed it. This is when Selūne sacrificed her own power, by ripping the magic (Gaea/mana) free of herself and piercing Shar straight-through, tearing her sister-self's magic from her as well. And so Mystryl was born, the child of war and anger, and she sided with her mother Selūne. With Shar held at bay by the two powers, Ao was able to take the destroyed 'new sun' ("The Dawn") and put it aside, in his bag of substance (the pocket plane that would become Abeir), for future use. he then fashioned a second sun from another world and set it alight, and the heat and brilliance drove Shar to the far corners of Realmspace... to plot and lick her wounds. The half-born sun would someday be Lathander, and the second sun - fully empowered by Ao himself - would someday be known as Aumanator (among other names).

So there was always two suns, and they probably weren't always called 'Lathander' and 'Aumanator' - those would be fairly new constructs by recent (comparatively) human civilizations.

Interestingly, Aumanator is called A'Tar by the Bedine, and is female. "She is a harlot who betrays her lawful husband Kozah ever day to sleep with N'sar, god of night and the dead." If Aumanator is actually Pelor (or rather, both are aspects of an even more ancient sun archtype), could N'sar be Nerull?

My thoughts here is that Lathander was actually first, but was 'extinguished' by Shar, so Aumanator took his place. Then after the fall of Nethril, either Ao banished Aumanator for a time (perhaps for not doing more to protect his flock, and Mystryl), or Aumanator left of his own accord (several possibilities are give in his entry, and one is that he took up the mantle of sun god on other worlds... Pelor?) then Ao took his stored piece of Lathander, now fully restored (I guess he was 'incubating' inside Abeir all that time), and restored him to power in Realmspace. And this is how it remained until The Spellplague. Note that just before the return of Aumanator, some fool with a heresy actually created a 'second sun' - did he manage to open a portal allowing Aumanator to return? Another (canon) theory - from F&A - says that Aumanator may have gone 'into the east' and became part of their pantheon for time (although there is no mention of such a thing in K-T lore, so how could that have gone unnoticed? K-T's history is Imaskari history, and that goes back MUCH further than Netheril).


*In the entry on Shar in F&A, in the sidebar, it specifically states that they were one 'two-faced goddess".

**This - and any other sentences in italics - are also straight out of F&A; direct quotes.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Apr 2017 15:49:18
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  04:33:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I kinda lost my point above (that happens a LOT lol).

Basically, what I was saying is that instead of me saying that Shar and Selūne were part of the first 'Godswar' that took place in 'the age of legends' ("The Time before Time", etc), the stuff involving them happened soon after, in the aftermath of that war which destroyed the First World. I picture tons of energy and matter just spewed about (The Elemental Maelstrom?), and Ao forming a big 'gob' of that into Mysharona (my name for the conjoined deity she was at first), which later split and had its own 'mini godwar' (all those 'brushfire wars' that happened locally - in individual spheres/planes - that continue to happen even to this day, as a result of the Godswar).

Her 'creative' (positive) aspect wanted to make life happen, and her 'dark side' (negative) aspect was against it, hence the split. I suspect the Elder Elemental Eye or 'the Dark God' (I think they are different) was whispering bad things in Shar's ear, turning her against her sister. If it was 'The dark God', then I'd say that was Erebus (or rather, Erebus is just one aspect of 'The Dark God'). I wanted Erebus as Shar's 'father', but I was surprised the text in F&A says the two were the same being at one time (Mystyrl and Shar), so that doesn't work as well, plus it says Ao created them (and they, in turn, created everything else).

Now, here's the weird part - if Mystra is an amalgam of the two halves - one Selūne, one Shar - than shouldn't Mystra actually be the original, unified persona of the two? Sort of how Tyche should still be the unified persona of Beshaba and Tymora.

Two suns, two moons, two 'lucks', etc... I am starting to think every FR god is half of something else.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5836 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  14:20:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, so something interesting just popped in my head.

Dawn Cataclysm - splitting of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba.... what if they weren't the only gods split during this upheaval?

We have Amon the vestige (who appears to be something like Amaunatar) and we have the goddess At'ar. Put them together.... Amonat'ar....

Now, At'ar was "married" to Kozah/Talos... but she whorishly went into the tent of N'asr (who WAS Myrkul) as the sun went down (i.e. dusk... and Myrkul was "Lord of Dusk").

What if Tyche, Kozah, Jergal (figuring Myrkul took over), and Moander worked together to corrupt Amaunator (i.e. it was actually Amaunator who was courting Tyche, and Tyche bestowed misfortune on Amaunator)? What if this corrupting splitting of many of the Netherese gods is what Jergal foresaw coming when he gave up his portfolios to Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul? I can see this splitting of Amaunator benefitting all of them... for Tyche, its misfortune for a god.... for Kozah/Talos, its the destruction of a god.... for Jergal, its the "death"/"murder" of a god.... and for Moander, its the "corruption" of a god... This would also fit with Moander's title of "The Darkbringer". In return for their aid, Kozah and Jergal would receive some of the sun's power (i.e. Kozah gaining control of the fiery sun of noon, Jergal the nightly "death" of the sun) from the viewpoint of mortal belief.

Moander, after splitting "the sun"/Amaunator into male and female halves (Amon and At'ar), casts the "good half" Amon into "the place where vestiges go"... to fester and turn evil

In comes Ao (or maybe just an interloper from another pantheon sees opportunity), when he goes to the pantheon of the Aeaeree and invites the Phoenix over to take over the sun's portfolios, representing the "Rebirth" of the sun as the entity known as Lathander. This action is completed by the seeds of "death" (Jergal) and "destruction" (Kozah) both impregnating At'ar... and she gives "birth" to Lathander and is destroyed in the process (it should be noted that in the Anauroch supplement, it presents At'ar as a deity who doesn't actually interact with the world.... which could mean she's dead, and the Bedine have simply kept telling the story of At'ar servicing both Kozah and Nas'r).

Meanwhile, Moander moves on to Tyche, even though she helped him before. He begins splitting her into Tymora and Beshaba, with the intent of also hurling Tymora into "the place where vestiges go" and leaving behind only Beshaba. By this time, "Lathander" has grown and goes to Grandma Selune for help in safely splitting Tyche like she had split herself from Shar.

It might even be possible to somehow mix in the deaths of two other sun gods at roughly the same time (because two other sun gods, Ra and Utu, died in -1071 DR at the hands of Gruumsh and possibly other orc deities.... such that the rotting death of Amaunator may have spanned centuries, and for a time there may have only been At'ar, and then Lathander). None of this has to have happened all at once, such that the whole Dawn cataclysm could have spanned an entire Millenia or so. Jergal may have foreseen that Moander would turn on him as well, much as he did Tyche, and that's why he gave up his portfolios. Hell, it might even be that Moander also betrayed Kozah as well, since we later have Talos (possibly associated with fire/volcanos) and Bhaelros (a wind/lightning deity).... not sure that I like that though.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30228 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  15:06:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The timing is problematic. Though there is TSR/WotC's inexplicable refusal to put a timeframe on the Dawn Cataclysm, signs point to it being in the early 700s DR -- well after Lathander was known to be around and being worshiped, and after the fall of Amaunator.

We know that Tyche's split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, and we know when her church split -- that was in the 700s DR, per the 3E FRCS.

The point could be argued, but I personally think it highly unlikely that there would be any kind of delay between Tyche splitting and the schism that split her church into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba. I would expect that they started separating their worshipers within days or weeks of the split.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Apr 2017 15:07:49
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KanzenAU
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Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  15:11:24  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also need to consider that At'ar likely never existed.

From Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
The cautious regard the Bedine have for At'ar has never brought them any answer to their prayers, however, because At'ar does not exist. She is but a twisted memory of Amaunator, the ancient Netherese god of law and the sun, derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.

As I've said over in the Anauroch thread, I suspect that Amaunator may have been still a little active after Netheril's fall, but as a merciless god that just wanted the sun to burn those that had lost faith in him, solely using his power to turn the southern Anauroch into a powerfully hot desert - and that's where At'ar the Merciless comes from. But that's just a theory.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 15:12:10
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  15:27:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Me, I think that Lathander was originally a servant of Amaunator -- maybe a really powerful planar of some type, or perhaps a demigod in direct service to Amaunator, the way Gwaeron Windstrom is more defined by his service to Mielikki than as a deity in his own right. As Amaunator declined, Lathander became more and more appealing to those who worshiped the sun but didn't dig Amaunator's lawful stance (or associated him with the fall of Netheril), eventually becoming a full-on independent power.

Lathander's silence during the lost century could have been because Amaunator's return caused problems, with the former servant refusing to return to his subordinate position. It could have been that it was nothing more than a divine legal battle (not the first for Amaunator) with the latter asserting his legal dominance of Lathander, and Lathander being quiet while he fought for his independence. (Or perhaps he had no choice but to return to Amaunator's service, while fighting to reclaim his independence)

Another thought... I've mentioned, more than once, my distaste for the tripartite sun deity idea. But what if the idea of one entity with three faces was a flawed understanding of the real situation? What if the reality was that Lathander and a former deity of dusk were servants of Amaunator? This theoretical dusk servant could have been slain by the Dark Three on their way to apotheosis, giving Myrkul that portfolio. This links the three deities in a way that could be misunderstood by mortals as the 3-faced thing, while retaining each of them being independent entities.

(It has similarly occurred to me that perhaps Tyche was served by her daughter deities, Tymora and Beshaba, who had split Tyche's duties between them. Perhaps Moander's corruption caused Tyche to attack Selūne, who inadvertently destroyed her friend. Tyche's power then flowed to Tymora and Beshaba, instead of going to Moander, as he'd originally planned. Suddenly, both demigods were much more powerful, promoted into full and independent deities)

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KanzenAU
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  16:11:24  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And then there is the 'dead sun god' - the one that was killed during the Godwar in Realmspace (the War of Light & Darkness).

What's this now? I remember the sun being covered up and some other shiznazz going on, but I don't recall a dead sun god. Source?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Me, I think that Lathander was originally a servant of Amaunator -- maybe a really powerful planar of some type, or perhaps a demigod in direct service to Amaunator, the way Gwaeron Windstrom is more defined by his service to Mielikki than as a deity in his own right. As Amaunator declined, Lathander became more and more appealing to those who worshiped the sun but didn't dig Amaunator's lawful stance (or associated him with the fall of Netheril), eventually becoming a full-on independent power.

Lathander's silence during the lost century could have been because Amaunator's return caused problems, with the former servant refusing to return to his subordinate position. It could have been that it was nothing more than a divine legal battle (not the first for Amaunator) with the latter asserting his legal dominance of Lathander, and Lathander being quiet while he fought for his independence. (Or perhaps he had no choice but to return to Amaunator's service, while fighting to reclaim his independence)

Another thought... I've mentioned, more than once, my distaste for the tripartite sun deity idea. But what if the idea of one entity with three faces was a flawed understanding of the real situation? What if the reality was that Lathander and a former deity of dusk were servants of Amaunator? This theoretical dusk servant could have been slain by the Dark Three on their way to apotheosis, giving Myrkul that portfolio. This links the three deities in a way that could be misunderstood by mortals as the 3-faced thing, while retaining each of them being independent entities.

(It has similarly occurred to me that perhaps Tyche was served by her daughter deities, Tymora and Beshaba, who had split Tyche's duties between them. Perhaps Moander's corruption caused Tyche to attack Selūne, who inadvertently destroyed her friend. Tyche's power then flowed to Tymora and Beshaba, instead of going to Moander, as he'd originally planned. Suddenly, both demigods were much more powerful, promoted into full and independent deities)

I do kind of like the idea that Lathander was Amaunator's servant. It kind of fits with most stuff - especially that they're never really depicted as being directly antagonistic to one another. As to the Three Faced Sun heresy, consider that Jergal had a cordial relationship with Amaunator back in ancient Netheril, and is a good fit for that role. I also like the idea of the heresy being a misunderstanding of the true situation: Amaunator plus two servants.

The main problem I have is that it feels like there should have been some sort of hint that Lathander was once a servant of Amaunator somewhere in the lore if this was the case. But, a plus side for it is that ELB has been a proponent of the Three Faced heresy in the past I think, and, well, he's Eric Boyd.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 16:12:17
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  16:22:26  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For your consideration: a compilation of the known history of Amaunator. If something isn't registered as canon, I use language like "it is thought" and such forth. Everything is based on at least one source though - even the theories in italics are based on theories derived from the source materials.

The Known History of Amaunator, the Yellow God
Amaunator first appears in recorded history as one of the deities of the Netherese pantheon. Known as the Yellow God and the Keeper of Law, Amaunator was a powerful deity of law, order, and the sun, and his priests were important political figures in Netherese society. However, when Netheril fell after Karsus’s Folly, Amaunator’s surviving worshipers turned their backs on him, believing he did nothing to stop the disasters affecting their civilization. His followers were right, but contractually, his hands were tied. Magic in all forms was under exclusive control of Mystryl, and Amaunator had no lawful right to interfere in any way, even in the magical catastrophe that ensued after Karsus’s folly.

Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became At'ar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerun and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect.

During this time of Amaunator's decline, the first records of the faith of Lathander appear – a faith rising among the Netherese survivors that sought refuge in other lands. While Amaunator’s power declined, Lathander’s rose, and a sect of Amaunator’s followers began to believe that Lathander was the reincarnated form of Amaunator. This sect called themselves the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, and they eventually became recognized as one of Lathander’s main knightly orders.

Theory: As Amaunator declined, he turned bitter against his once faithful that abandoned him. He cursed the land his priests had once attended, and the sun directly over it began to glare with a hateful intensity. Already drained by the phaerimm’s magic, the southern part of Netheril became a searingly hot desert.

After about a millennium of decline, Amaunator eventually did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus, and he was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse drifted there with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit might help him regain his once-proud heritage.

Many centuries later, during the Era of Upheaval, the ambitious spirit Amaunator needed came in the form of Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir, a Lathanderite priest and fire genasi of Elversult who could trace his lineage back to a Netherese priest of Amaunator. Daelegoth had come to be a member of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, which had maintained that Lathander was the reborn Amaunator for centuries. By the early 1370s, Daelegoth had become one of the most powerful clerics in Faerūn (achieving 25th level), while also having become the archbishop of Lathander in the Dragon Coast. The cleric eventually came to the understanding that not only was Lathander the reborn Amaunator, but that the two guises existed in a cycle – a cycle soon about to culminate in the return of Amaunator. This belief in an imminent return led him to become the leader of a movement that was then known within Lathander’s clergy as the Risen Sun heresy.

In 1374 DR, Daelegoth successfully asked for divine help from what he claimed to be Amaunator/Lathander in diverting the floods of the High Ice from Elversult, and subsequently became known as a worker of miracles, winning his movement many new followers. Daelegoth began to preach that he had seen a vision of an eternal sun rising high above the land that would herald the rebirth of Amaunator, and ultimately he perfected a powerful spell that brought this vision to reality. His eternal sun still hangs over the city of Elversult today*. Word of “Amaunator’s eternal sun” spread quickly across Faerūn, and would-be converts began turning up at the doors of Lathanderite temples across the continent, seeking to convert to the faith of Amaunator. Throughout this entire period, the Lathanderite clergy never condemned Daelegoth, waiting for some sun from their god about the truth of the heresy – but Lathander never showed any sign of approval or disapproval of the new sect. It is unknown to this day if Amaunator had somehow managed to send a message and some power to Daelegoth, or if he achieved these deeds using only the divine power of Lathander. If the former, he may have been aided by his recovery of an ancient artifact of Amaunator known as the Shard of the Sun.

Only a little over a decade later, in 1385 DR, the Spellplague erupted through the cosmos with the death of Mystra at the hands of Cyric. Lathander, together with Tyr and Sune, acted to imprison Cyric within his home plane for a thousand years. Whether or not this act, together with the decline of Lathander’s faith on Toril, had resulted in Lathander becoming weakened and more vulnerable to attack is unknown. Whatever the case, soon afterwards Lathander disappeared. At the same time, Amaunator appeared in a new plane known as the Eternal Sun, taking Lathander’s place. Amaunator’s clergy continued preaching that he and Lathander were but different guises for the same deity, and with Lathander silent, his faith died away while Amaunator’s rose in power. Amaunator thus inherited Lathander’s position in the Faerūnian pantheon, becoming a greater power once more, just as he was in the days of ancient Netheril. Over the following century, many temples that once served Lathander were converted to temples of Amaunator, and his clergy rose dramatically in power. As far as most of Toril was concerned, what had once been called the Risen Sun heresy had been revealed to be the truth.

This new truth lasted for a hundred years. Then, during the Sundering, Lathander suddenly began to answer the prayers of his faithful once more. This was much to the surprise of Amaunator’s clergy, who had preached for over a century that the two deities were but one. By 1489 DR, the Era of Upheaval had come to an end, and both deities appeared to be active on Toril. However, the nature of the relationship between the two deities remains unclear, as does where they reside in the planes. Some suspect that Amaunator had bound Lathander away by force, and it was only Ao’s changing of the rules and the reshaping of the planes during the Sundering that freed him.

Theory: With both deities now present in the Faerūnian pantheon, many expect a confrontation between their clergies - especially as the faithful of Lathander are expected to try and reclaim their old temples from the Amaunatori. Amaunator’s attention may be divided however – some suspect he is behind the return of the searingly hot desert sands of the southern Anauroch.

A note on At'ar the Merciless
The Bedine tribesmen of Anauroch have no priests, but they respect and fear a version of Amaunator they call At’ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess. Chief amongst the deities of the Bedine and symbolizing the heat of the desert sun, At'ar is seen as a spiteful and faithless woman whose fury in the full day strikes fear into the bravest hearts. She is a harlot who betrays her lawful husband Kozah every day to steep with N'asr, god of night and the dead. However, At’ar does not exist – she is but a myth derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.

Sources
Faiths and Avatars, Anauroch, 2e FRCS, Netheril: Empire of Magic, Grand History of the Realms, Lost Empires of Faerun, Player's Guide to Faerun, Power of Faerun, Races of Faerun, 4e FRCG, 4e FR Player's Guide, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, the Crystal Mountain, Blackstaff Tower, The Companions, The Godborn, The Reaver, WotC "Lore You Should Know" podcast

*The "eternal sun" still being there is a theory - Elversult, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been detailed since 3e. Note that it is not the same as Elturel's "Companion", also known colloquially as "Amaunator's Gift", which appeared around the 1440s - no one actually knows how the Companion came to be, and which deity was involved, if any.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 16:39:19
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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  16:37:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never been a fan of the multi-faced deity (conjoined, tripartite, etc) concept myself, because it wreaks havoc with wrapping rules around cosmological beings. The best I can managed is that each being gives a single avatar and combines them into something new, but in some cases, the conjoined god is more powerful than contributing deities, so that wouldn't make sense (in some cases, maybe they give more than one avatar, which amounts to 'shedding' DvR pts.?)

And there will always be 'time problems' Wooly, which is why we have things like The Sundering, The creation of Evermeet, and The Dawn Cataclysm all happening 'outside of time'/"reaching backwards in time"/etc., and why I felt it was okay to thrust Orcus back in time (as the dead vestige of Nerull, thus creating the paradox that allows 'undead gods', which is completely non-sensical). As an aside to all of this, Ed is a brilliant world-designer, but he kept everything 'hazy' for a reason - once you start trying to put concrete dates to everything, the timeline develops some bad problems (a precise dating of one event messes with other events). It works so long as it is all 'distant past' or 'legend' (and also why he had separate calendars for every country, etc - single-system timelines revealed a lot of glitches).

I feel like we are closer to 'The Truth' (at least one of FR's 'deep secrets' than we've ever been before. We keep seeing this repeating pattern of 'two halves of the same god'. Here's the thing - in most cases of mythology (RW and D&D), when a (true) god has 'two halves', its usually a 'divine feminine', and a 'divine masculine', and this works great for some of these current musings regarding Aumanator, but when we go ALL the way back t the beginning... whats the deal with Mystryl and Selūne?

Is Shar a transgender 'divine masculine'?
I (kinda) know how Ed feels about that particular RW subject, but we are talking about him coming up with something like that some 45 years ago, when he was still just a kid; I know he's a brilliant world-builder, but I think something like that is 'too modern' a concept for it to be something worked into the original Realms. HOWEVER, right around that time the whole thing with 'multiple personality disorder' became big news (the book Sybil was released, and it was a best-seller - I read it myself, and I was just a kid), and if we apply that to gods - who do split themselves all the time - it can be more of a metaphyscial 'male' & 'female' (Sybil had male personalities). Mystryl-Shar (no-one like 'Mysharona? ) was NEVER mortal - she was a created being, so the entire concept of 'sexual identity' IS just a convention of mortal worshipers. Although thats also a modern concept (sexual identity), coming up with it for gods - who are NOT actually physical beings (in the normal sense) - makes perfect sense, even for a kid some 45 years ago. You only need 'sex' if you need to procreate using genitalia, which gods most obviously do not.

So maybe Shar is Mystryl's 'dude-like', negative-aspected, other half. I have noticed quite a lot of behavior Shar has in common with Mystra/Mstryl in the RotAW novels, and I chalked that up to poor writing... but what if it wasn't? What if Troy Denning was keenly aware that it was the same goddess all along? It makes perfect sense in regards to the Weave - one personality is trying to become dominant. The Weave could literally BE 'Mystryl's mind' - the Shadoweave is her subconscious (now coming to the fore).

And since Mystrl is/was a representation of the earliest form of 'life' post-Sundering, all these beings that came after all have this half/half thing going on (so all gods are bat-crap crazy... which does make sense). The 'duality' of the universe keeps getting mirrored over and over again.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Also need to consider that At'ar likely never existed.

From Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
The cautious regard the Bedine have for At'ar has never brought them any answer to their prayers, however, because At'ar does not exist. She is but a twisted memory of Amaunator, the ancient Netherese god of law and the sun, derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.

As I've said over in the Anauroch thread, I suspect that Amaunator may have been still a little active after Netheril's fall, but as a merciless god that just wanted the sun to burn those that had lost faith in him, solely using his power to turn the southern Anauroch into a powerfully hot desert - and that's where At'ar the Merciless comes from. But that's just a theory.

A couple of caveats: Although we like to fall back on 1e/2e lore whenever possible around here, because we've had sweeping changes to the cosmology since 2e books were written (like having a 'before time' when Abeir and Toril were one world, so that technically non of the pre-Sundering events actually happened on the Toril that we know). And as I just mentioned above, we have several major world-changing events that have occurred over the years that could mean there is really (at least) two separate 'histories' (I recall a heated argument with some people over on the WoTC boards concerning this, because they insisted that there was but one, single 'timeline' for FR, and I pointed out that several things - including Elaine's Evermeet novel and at least one Vingette in the GHotR says that 'the world was changed' backwards & forwards in time, and 'whole groups of people were simply erased'. That sounds like we had one history, and then we had another). Thus, all the stuff from 'legends' that doesn't quite fit right (years being off, or saying such-and-such a god did such-and-such, when we have other lore saying that couldn't have happened at that time because of other stuff...) could be written off as 'glitches in the matrix' - we have an in-setting reason for the continuity to be off (just as DC comics did with their Crisis series.. which turned into several series because they kept getting new glitches). Perhaps some bits of history - magically protected libraries of the elves, for example - may have been protected from the changes, and thus the oddness of that history when compared to what we know is true now.

I don't love it, and I know lots of people here HATE 'timey-wimey' explanations, but they really do help smooth the rough edges.

So I don't feel we should totally discount the stuff about A'tar. Its certainly not 'pure fact', but considering its based on "what people knew to be true" in 2nd edition (when no-one suspected Aumanator would return), we can borrow from the legends and try to find grains of truth within them.

because thats what we do around here.

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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  16:41:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And Lathander as Aumanator's servant makes lots of sense, except some of us are trying (desperately?) to connect the current 'two suns' with the earliest lore we have about the Godswar (the stuff from the draconic legends concerning the two suns). Sure, we can consider them separate things, but its just much more fun trying to link everything together.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  18:24:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And Lathander as Aumanator's servant makes lots of sense, except some of us are trying (desperately?) to connect the current 'two suns' with the earliest lore we have about the Godswar (the stuff from the draconic legends concerning the two suns). Sure, we can consider them separate things, but its just much more fun trying to link everything together.



I would say the two suns thing predates Amaunator. So having Lathander serve Amaunator millennia later simply isn't a factor in the issue.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Apr 2017 19:19:37
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  19:49:59  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Im gonna have to go into rant mode.

Reading these events nearly turned me off FR altogether, nevermind just the novels.

I realise now why i dislike the new Forgotten Realms. Its because it has departed so much from Eds original vision that the two settings are not even slightly related.

Yes Eds realms had gods and chosen in it, but they were just a very distant and unknowable background. The setting was about the people and a simulated real world.

This horrible, boring monstrosity is just a quasi rip off of the marvel universe set in a medieval fantasy world. But its even worse than that as its not about the super heroes anymore its about 2 dimensional deities and their lusts.

For years Ed was pestered by people about what did this god say and what would this god do (checj his threads out). For years Ed was telling people politely thatvits not about the gods, the gods are distant and unknowable, its about the people. Nobody listened and now FR is in this truly awful state. I wouldnt be surprised if this was a contributing factor to why Ed left to make stormtalons (i dont see any god nonsense in that setting).

Im just stating my opinion here. I dont think i can read this tripe for much longer. Thankfully im gonna rewrite the realms just for me (and there wont be a single god doing or saying anything to amyone).

Rant over.



I'm going to have to disagree with this. I think the gods add flavor to the Realms, and getting rid of them would make it the dull world that some fear it's becoming (or has become). Yes, when there is a constant interference, it got old, because it was literally dues ex machina, but no interference is equally boring, especially because the gods are very much a part of the Realms, whether their avatars appear, or they interact via visions/dreams. They can still be mysterious and be active in the Realms. I don't mind the gods being a little more distant, but being too distant would ruin the Realms for me. The planes and the various deities (and these discussions about deity aspects) help make the Realms the Realms.

Of course in the end it's about the people, but having the higher powers makes it richer. A world that was just about people with some magic thrown in would make it too RW in a fictional setting. There are other books for that.

I do seem to remember Ed saying his original intention for the gods was to have them being mysterious, and often appear in dreams and visions, but that doesn't mean they don't interact with their followers. What X god is asking of his cleric is up to interpretation (and in game, players have to figure it out), but that doesn't mean the gods aren't a part of the world.

For certain races, like drow and elves, their gods make up a large part of who they are. If it weren't for deities like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, the drow would be the evil spider-kissers WotC tried to make them in 4e by getting rid of the drow pantheon.

Also, while I haven't read Stormtalons yet, I seem to remember Ed saying there are indeed gods in that setting. 6 main ones, if I recall. But I don't know anything about the setting, so I could be wrong on that account, and mixing my info up with something else.

Anyway, back to the OP, I too am glad Amaunataur and Lathander are different deities. I don't remember that particular scene in the Reaver, but I do remember the division in the Lathander church in the Twilight Wars, because it was believed the Deliverence (where Lathander would become Amaunataur) was coming, and others believed it heresy.

I am glad the deity diversity is back, I just wish there was more detail on it!

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Apr 2017 22:58:58
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sleyvas
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  05:26:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I've never been a fan of the multi-faced deity (conjoined, tripartite, etc) concept myself, because it wreaks havoc with wrapping rules around cosmological beings. The best I can managed is that each being gives a single avatar and combines them into something new, but in some cases, the conjoined god is more powerful than contributing deities, so that wouldn't make sense (in some cases, maybe they give more than one avatar, which amounts to 'shedding' DvR pts.?)

And there will always be 'time problems' Wooly, which is why we have things like The Sundering, The creation of Evermeet, and The Dawn Cataclysm all happening 'outside of time'/"reaching backwards in time"/etc., and why I felt it was okay to thrust Orcus back in time (as the dead vestige of Nerull, thus creating the paradox that allows 'undead gods', which is completely non-sensical). As an aside to all of this, Ed is a brilliant world-designer, but he kept everything 'hazy' for a reason - once you start trying to put concrete dates to everything, the timeline develops some bad problems (a precise dating of one event messes with other events). It works so long as it is all 'distant past' or 'legend' (and also why he had separate calendars for every country, etc - single-system timelines revealed a lot of glitches).

I feel like we are closer to 'The Truth' (at least one of FR's 'deep secrets' than we've ever been before. We keep seeing this repeating pattern of 'two halves of the same god'. Here's the thing - in most cases of mythology (RW and D&D), when a (true) god has 'two halves', its usually a 'divine feminine', and a 'divine masculine', and this works great for some of these current musings regarding Aumanator, but when we go ALL the way back t the beginning... whats the deal with Mystryl and Selūne?

Is Shar a transgender 'divine masculine'?
I (kinda) know how Ed feels about that particular RW subject, but we are talking about him coming up with something like that some 45 years ago, when he was still just a kid; I know he's a brilliant world-builder, but I think something like that is 'too modern' a concept for it to be something worked into the original Realms. HOWEVER, right around that time the whole thing with 'multiple personality disorder' became big news (the book Sybil was released, and it was a best-seller - I read it myself, and I was just a kid), and if we apply that to gods - who do split themselves all the time - it can be more of a metaphyscial 'male' & 'female' (Sybil had male personalities). Mystryl-Shar (no-one like 'Mysharona? ) was NEVER mortal - she was a created being, so the entire concept of 'sexual identity' IS just a convention of mortal worshipers. Although thats also a modern concept (sexual identity), coming up with it for gods - who are NOT actually physical beings (in the normal sense) - makes perfect sense, even for a kid some 45 years ago. You only need 'sex' if you need to procreate using genitalia, which gods most obviously do not.

So maybe Shar is Mystryl's 'dude-like', negative-aspected, other half. I have noticed quite a lot of behavior Shar has in common with Mystra/Mstryl in the RotAW novels, and I chalked that up to poor writing... but what if it wasn't? What if Troy Denning was keenly aware that it was the same goddess all along? It makes perfect sense in regards to the Weave - one personality is trying to become dominant. The Weave could literally BE 'Mystryl's mind' - the Shadoweave is her subconscious (now coming to the fore).

And since Mystrl is/was a representation of the earliest form of 'life' post-Sundering, all these beings that came after all have this half/half thing going on (so all gods are bat-crap crazy... which does make sense). The 'duality' of the universe keeps getting mirrored over and over again.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Also need to consider that At'ar likely never existed.

From Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
The cautious regard the Bedine have for At'ar has never brought them any answer to their prayers, however, because At'ar does not exist. She is but a twisted memory of Amaunator, the ancient Netherese god of law and the sun, derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.

As I've said over in the Anauroch thread, I suspect that Amaunator may have been still a little active after Netheril's fall, but as a merciless god that just wanted the sun to burn those that had lost faith in him, solely using his power to turn the southern Anauroch into a powerfully hot desert - and that's where At'ar the Merciless comes from. But that's just a theory.

A couple of caveats: Although we like to fall back on 1e/2e lore whenever possible around here, because we've had sweeping changes to the cosmology since 2e books were written (like having a 'before time' when Abeir and Toril were one world, so that technically non of the pre-Sundering events actually happened on the Toril that we know). And as I just mentioned above, we have several major world-changing events that have occurred over the years that could mean there is really (at least) two separate 'histories' (I recall a heated argument with some people over on the WoTC boards concerning this, because they insisted that there was but one, single 'timeline' for FR, and I pointed out that several things - including Elaine's Evermeet novel and at least one Vingette in the GHotR says that 'the world was changed' backwards & forwards in time, and 'whole groups of people were simply erased'. That sounds like we had one history, and then we had another). Thus, all the stuff from 'legends' that doesn't quite fit right (years being off, or saying such-and-such a god did such-and-such, when we have other lore saying that couldn't have happened at that time because of other stuff...) could be written off as 'glitches in the matrix' - we have an in-setting reason for the continuity to be off (just as DC comics did with their Crisis series.. which turned into several series because they kept getting new glitches). Perhaps some bits of history - magically protected libraries of the elves, for example - may have been protected from the changes, and thus the oddness of that history when compared to what we know is true now.

I don't love it, and I know lots of people here HATE 'timey-wimey' explanations, but they really do help smooth the rough edges.

So I don't feel we should totally discount the stuff about A'tar. Its certainly not 'pure fact', but considering its based on "what people knew to be true" in 2nd edition (when no-one suspected Aumanator would return), we can borrow from the legends and try to find grains of truth within them.

because thats what we do around here.



Never gonna stop, give it up, such a dirty mind
I always get it up, for the touch of the younger kind
My, my, my, aye-aye, whoa!
M-m-m-my Sharona


Whoops... oh, and regarding the moons and their being feminine .... what about the "ice moon"/"crystal sun" Zotha? It was masculine. Might Selune have had a love... that Asgorath killed... and that Shar was pissed about <dun duh dun>

From the original draconomicon

#147;. . . The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  06:22:27  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that Jergal, Amaunator, and Lathander may be connected by history if anything and not by deific links. There's nothing really concrete to say that they're the same deity, or even definitively related. Netheril: Empire of Magic depicts Jergal and Amaunator as separate equals who have a cordial relationship. What exactly Lathander is remains unclear, but as Wooly said, he could have been a relatively unknown servant of Amaunator that starts getting worshipers of his own after the Fall due to his powerful message of a new dawn. Or, he could have been an interloper that arrives after the Fall. Or, he could be a new being or lesser known god that rises out the Netherese survivors mixing with the peoples of other lands, such as Jhaamdath in the Vilhon Reach.

I like that the Three Faced Sun heresy of Power of Faerun may have partly come from Jergal and the "new god" Lathander having very different approaches as to what to do after the fall, and both being connected to Amaunator (one as a former ally of sorts, and one by being associated with the sun). Jergal apparently loses interest in the world, and will eventually allow his portfolios to be taken by the Dead Three. Lathander, his star rising, takes the opposite approach, wishing a glorious future for the world, and begins planning to remove evil from it - eventually setting in motion the events of the Dawn Cataclysm. This is a good start for any heresy thinking of them as the dusk and dawnlords.

So here's the timeline of what we know:
-359 DR: Borem is slain by the Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal (the Dead Three) in the Year of the Boiling Moats (GHotR).
-339 DR: Amaunator starts dying with the fall of Netheril (F&A). Sometime later Jergal will give up his portfolio to the Dead Three.
-255 DR: Jhaamdath is hit by a massive tidal wave - an event some associate with Lathander's Dawn Cataclysm.
-137 DR: The first dating of followers of Lathander come from a group of paladins from the Vilhon Reach arriving in Westgate (GHotR, Cloak and Dagger supplements). We also know that at some point (undated) Netherese survivors brought the faith of Lathander as the reborn Amaunator to Tethyr (RoF) - probably some of the first Glorious Sun members.
~600s DR: Amaunator stops answering prayers on Toril a millenia after the fall of Netheril (F&A).
<714 DR: The Dawn Cataclysm is "believed to have heralded the fall of Myth Drannor", meaning it likely ends before that event (F&A).

The "Lathander, lesser god of Jhaamdath" theory
Now here's another interesting point to think about: in Faiths and Avatars, Amaunator is listed as a foe of Eldath. Interestingly, Eldath also lists Lathander as an ally in F&A! There has also been some conjecture (with input from Steven Schend, creator of Jhaamdath), that Eldath was an important god of the Jhaamdathi pantheon. Note Lathander and Amaunator are never listed as allies or enemies.

So, what if Netherese survivors of the fall came to Jhaamdath, and those few carrying the faith of Amaunator started clashing with those of Eldath, and that's how they became enemies? Then, it is there in the Vilhon Reach that the faith of Lathander is born into its modern incarnation. Perhaps previously, Lathander had been a little worshiped god of the dawn in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. By a couple of generations after the Fall, the descendants of the Netherese survivors had mostly forgotten about Amaunator (perhaps assisted in this by clergy of Eldath), but they are still are drawn to sun faiths, and thus to worship of Lathander. This invigorates Lathander enough to become a much powerful deity, and the excitable god starts having dreams of grandeur. His faith begins to spread, including to lands like Tethyr. The Dawn Cataclysm nears, and within a hundred years of the fall of Netheril (-339) Jhaamdath is destroyed (-255). Within another hundred years (-137), the first written records of paladins of Lathander appears, riding out of the Vilhon Reach to Westgate. In fact, the Chondathan diaspora following the destruction of Jhaamdath would have spread Lathander's faith much more widely.

I know any mention of the Dawn Cataclysm gets people a bit antsy as the timeline is so whack, but Lathander having a role in the destruction of Jhaamdath isn't a central part of this theory. It still works if you say the Dawn Cataclysm didn't occur until the 700s, and the destruction of Jhaamdath was unrelated.

A Dawn Cataclysm Timeline
Here's an example possible timeline involving the above, for your consideration:

Around -339 DR: Netherese survivors come to Jhaamdath, and come to worship Lathander. Lathander starts to grow in power, as the peoples of the world begin to mingle more and more, he seeks to redesign the Realms in his own image. He sees the image of a rose leading to a reorganisation of the gods, and begins cultivating roses in the hope of bringing this vision to fruition.
Around -300 DR: Tyche takes a flower that she believes to be Lathander's, knowing of his vision as the two were in love, and plants it in her hair (for more on this, see Dragon 388). However, the flower she takes is actually the disguised Moander, but he does not destroy her yet - he instead corrupts any Chosen she creates from that point. This is the beginning of the Dawn Cataclysm.
-276 DR: The great Jhaamdathi metamind Dharien siezes control of Jhaamdath and begins to build a great armada (perhaps so he can reshape the world in his image, encouraged by Lathander?). This fuels conflict with the elves of Nikerymath (GHotR).
-255 DR: High Mages of Nikerymath unleash a tidal wave that destroys Jhaamdath. There is some speculation that this is related to the death of Murdane at Umberlee's hands, and combined with the fact that Helm blames Lathander for Murdane's death and Murdane's death is related to the Dawn Cataclysm (GHotR), it is possible that Lathander's actions (possibly by encouraging Dharien) led to this event.
-137 DR: First recorded paladins of Lathander (though they likely existed before this) coming out of the Vilhon Reach to strike down a vampire king of Westgate (and take over rulership of that city).
75 DR: Moander's presence on Toril is weakened when he is imprisoned in Tsornyl (GHotR). However, the damage to Tyche has already been done.
136 DR: Azuth is no longer Magister.
161 DR: Last Chosen of Tyche dies within the coils of Moander's avatar (GHotR).
171 DR: Moander sealed away in Yulash, and high magic is used to banish him from the Realms (GHotR).
~700 DR: The full extent of Moander's damage to Tyche is revealed to be incurable, and Selune strikes Tyche with divine light, splitting her into two. The event leads to the creation of Tymora and Beshaba, and a schism in Tyche's church (FRCS). As Lathander considers his actions with the destruction of his love, the Dawn Cataclysm comes to an end, immediately before the fall of Myth Drannor in 714 DR (thus heralding it).

This version of the Dawn Cataclysm lasts for 1,000 years as timed by how long it takes for Moander's actions to lead to Tyche's destruction. The whole event was precipitated by Lathander - but I would throw in the possibility that Moander put the idea in his head. After all, the flower was what Tyche believed Lathander would use to instigate the redesigning of the Realms, and Moander is a god of rotting plants. All he has to do is plant a vision of greatness in the ambitious and naive young god's mind that involves a flower, and pretend to be that flower so that he can rot away the insides of a god while the young and ambitious god Lathander wreaks havoc on the planes... seems like a fun idea for a power like Moander.

Edit:
Alternatively, if you want a more Lathander focused start to the Cataclysm, we could have Tyche picking up the rose much later, and the first events of the Cataclysm could be Lathander encouraging mass change in the world through people such as Dharien (perhaps even through giving them roses), leading to the tidal wave that destroyed Jhaamdath. The Moander-Tyche thing then might happen shortly after that, as Tyche shows her support for Lathander after the death of Murdane by putting one of his flowers in her hair that she believes he cultivated especially for her - but it is in truth Moander (though she is still not struck by Selune until the 8th century DR).

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 22 Apr 2017 07:02:40
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  12:05:10  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i never noticed the bit about the chosen of tyche dying nine times in the coils of moanders avatar.

I will of course make the chosen bit merely a title and the nine times death is likely an exaggeration of the wounds they sustained but it seems i now have a concrete point for the beginning of the association between moander and tyche which resulted in a lot of myths and fables about the death of tyche and destruction of the church.

I wonder when Teshar fell and can i link the death of a nation and destruction of a temple to some ill conceived wanderings in tsornyl and the end of all remaining clergy.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  16:16:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well i never noticed the bit about the chosen of tyche dying nine times in the coils of moanders avatar.

I will of course make the chosen bit merely a title and the nine times death is likely an exaggeration of the wounds they sustained


Why? What does it matter if the Chosen really died nine times or if they were just a vanilla mortal? It doesn't change a single thing, either way. There is literally no benefit to making this absolutely pointless change, other than your desire to remove every trace of one of the core elements of the Realms.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  17:07:17  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Precisely

Although grounding that piece of lore to a time and place (roughly) is never a bad thing it gives it historical relevance and a relation to other events. Also how can detailing a church of tyche and the titles of the clergy (making the highpriest title actually be known as 'the chosen') take away from the lore. If you choose to go with the god nonsense then the vague legend and sagely musings are still there (it wasnt a concrete mention in GHoTR it was only the idle musings of sages), but if you prefer a more people grounded version then there is no reason why you cant have one.


And i dont believe Ed ever had a chosen of any god other than mystra ( i think he was against the idea of other gods having chosen because of what would inevitably happen and did happen).

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Edited by - dazzlerdal on 22 Apr 2017 17:53:31
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