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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35445 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  05:37:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Exodite


I could see trade caravans taking overland routes (instead of those coming by barge) being stopped by patrols for a toll charged by the wagon/oxen, obviously at a higher rate than those that go through the city - if those are charged at all. Especially coasters that don't have holdings within the city itself, which may have agreements with city leadership to bypass or lower the fees. If this is the case, caravan masters finding barges that will pick them up just outside of Iriaebor's domain at a more modest fee than the city patrol would charge seems likely. Licit and illicit business dealings revolving around such tolls and trade deals given the location and influence of the city would have to be occuring.



I don't see it, unless it happens at some sort of physical chokepoint like a bridge or ferry, or some sort of other difficult to bypass terrain feature.

There are three reasons I don't see it.

One is that depending on the route, a caravan could be stopped by multiple patrols -- and if they're getting taxed multiple times while passing a specific area, they're going to avoid that area in the future.

The second is that you're empowering armed men, operating independently and far from supervision, to collect these taxes, and you're expecting them to be honest, not overcharge, and to not keep these bags of gold they'll be traveling with. Not only that, but in additional to standard soldier's training, they'd have to be trained at recognizing various goods and their worth, unless you're charging a flat X gold per wagon fee.

The third is that when entering a city, a merchant is going to expect certain things: a chance to find quarters and supplies, perhaps a chance to recruit more people, a chance for trade, and relative safety while doing all that. These are things that make the taxation worth the expense. If you're bypassing a city, all you're getting from patrols is an assurance of relative safety -- and you've already got your own guards for that, most likely. Merchants asked forced to pay for goods and services they're not receiving are not going to be return customers.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10757 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  12:42:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Exodite

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.

Hence, it is not a chokepoint.



Do you think that the rulers of Iriaebor throughout its history have been uniformly dumb and hapless? Or do you accept that there have been at least some moderately intelligent (at least) bastards ruling the city over the course of its thousand year history? Being a ruler has a way of bringing out the bastard in people, so I really hope it is the latter.





So what, they tax every single caravan they see, regardless of where it is in their territory? Or are you saying they've walled their entire territory and even further beyond, so it's impossible to bypass it? Don't be ridiculous.



I could see trade caravans taking overland routes (instead of those coming by barge) being stopped by patrols for a toll charged by the wagon/oxen, obviously at a higher rate than those that go through the city - if those are charged at all. Especially coasters that don't have holdings within the city itself, which may have agreements with city leadership to bypass or lower the fees. If this is the case, caravan masters finding barges that will pick them up just outside of Iriaebor's domain at a more modest fee than the city patrol would charge seems likely. Licit and illicit business dealings revolving around such tolls and trade deals given the location and influence of the city would have to be occuring.




And then when brigands start dressing up as patrolmen whenever they see a caravan on the horizon and roaming the countryside looking to "tax" people.... who think its legitimate and pay them because its the practice... and then they meet a real patrol and are expected to pay again and don't believe them and it causes a ruckus.

Now the city's reputation is on the line and they MUST find these brigands or suffer bad press. Furthermore, taxation is now haphazard, and people will seek to skirt patrols. Then there will also be patrols that only REPORT having met up with half their caravans OR charge some extra fee that's not on the books.

In other words, this practice invites banditry, discourages caravans interacting with patrols, stealing by patrolmen, and creates an air of distrust of the forces in the region. The pittance you're gaining isn't worth the bad press for your city. Honest trade and benefits gained for going to a city should win the day, or your city will suffer. Corruption is not the way to build a city.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10757 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  12:56:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

These are NOT your average warhorse. The area is known for its fine mounts and draft animals (that is in FRA, too). For the breed used by Iriaebor, think of something kind of like a cross of a Sosser and Semphari but has been bred for the plains of Sunset Vale, Greenfields, and the Dragon Coast. The breed's base was the herds of horses that were found in the area whose origins were entwined with the Horsemen of Ur (they lived in the area long ago). Each of these animals could easily go for 1200gp if not more since they are closer in quality to a paladin's mount than the average war horse.



Oh, even better. I didn't realize these were treasured horses like those sold by the Nars, etc.... I wonder if any of Waterdeep's noble families that are into horse trading can be linked with Iriaebor (like the Roaringhorn family that is also in Baldur's Gate and Cormyr).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
892 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  14:17:25  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

These are NOT your average warhorse. The area is known for its fine mounts and draft animals (that is in FRA, too). For the breed used by Iriaebor, think of something kind of like a cross of a Sosser and Semphari but has been bred for the plains of Sunset Vale, Greenfields, and the Dragon Coast. The breed's base was the herds of horses that were found in the area whose origins were entwined with the Horsemen of Ur (they lived in the area long ago). Each of these animals could easily go for 1200gp if not more since they are closer in quality to a paladin's mount than the average war horse.



Oh, even better. I didn't realize these were treasured horses like those sold by the Nars, etc.... I wonder if any of Waterdeep's noble families that are into horse trading can be linked with Iriaebor (like the Roaringhorn family that is also in Baldur's Gate and Cormyr).



It is canon that the Piiradosts are in Iriaebor so there may be more. The actual reference says that they are a "lesser branch of the family". I am taking that as snobbery towards the nobility of Iriaebor since it is the Golden Table that votes to ennoble a family and most of those votes involve almost open bribery. The nobles in Cormyr would have the same attitude.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 15 Sep 2021 14:20:04
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10757 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  17:11:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

These are NOT your average warhorse. The area is known for its fine mounts and draft animals (that is in FRA, too). For the breed used by Iriaebor, think of something kind of like a cross of a Sosser and Semphari but has been bred for the plains of Sunset Vale, Greenfields, and the Dragon Coast. The breed's base was the herds of horses that were found in the area whose origins were entwined with the Horsemen of Ur (they lived in the area long ago). Each of these animals could easily go for 1200gp if not more since they are closer in quality to a paladin's mount than the average war horse.



Oh, even better. I didn't realize these were treasured horses like those sold by the Nars, etc.... I wonder if any of Waterdeep's noble families that are into horse trading can be linked with Iriaebor (like the Roaringhorn family that is also in Baldur's Gate and Cormyr).



It is canon that the Piiradosts are in Iriaebor so there may be more. The actual reference says that they are a "lesser branch of the family". I am taking that as snobbery towards the nobility of Iriaebor since it is the Golden Table that votes to ennoble a family and most of those votes involve almost open bribery. The nobles in Cormyr would have the same attitude.



Oh, where's that at? You've definitely done your research. Thinking with all the horses, it would be fun to have a shrine to Lurue in the city who awakens horses.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
892 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  19:04:21  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2e Waterdeep: City of Splendors, Book IV page 12, it has this:

"Bringing this to the elder lord, Hemmerem was given money to keep this news quiet (and young Piiradost was sent to live with lesser relatives in Iriaebor)."

Edit: Oh, my understanding is that for domesticated horses, it would be Chauntea since her portfolio includes Agriculture (which includes the raising of domesticated animals for food and other uses).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 15 Sep 2021 19:20:41
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2136 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  20:12:39  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban


Proskur is a cesspool that is 140 miles away from Iriaebor. Since Cormyr is the one that maintains the roads between Cormyr and Proskur, that town is Cormyr's problem (and probably why it was eventually annexed by Cormyr).

...and this makes it the problem of anyone wary of Cormyr's expansion.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
892 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  20:44:42  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban


Proskur is a cesspool that is 140 miles away from Iriaebor. Since Cormyr is the one that maintains the roads between Cormyr and Proskur, that town is Cormyr's problem (and probably why it was eventually annexed by Cormyr).

...and this makes it the problem of anyone wary of Cormyr's expansion.



You mean like the fact that Pros, Illipur, Teziir, and Elversult also ends up becoming part of Cormyr (as either a vassal or a protectorate).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10757 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  20:53:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

2e Waterdeep: City of Splendors, Book IV page 12, it has this:

"Bringing this to the elder lord, Hemmerem was given money to keep this news quiet (and young Piiradost was sent to live with lesser relatives in Iriaebor)."

Edit: Oh, my understanding is that for domesticated horses, it would be Chauntea since her portfolio includes Agriculture (which includes the raising of domesticated animals for food and other uses).



Well, was more thinking of the part of awakening the horses (i.e. Lurue is goddess of talking beasts).... I was just thinking about bringing a horse up to the auction block and it starts talking about itself. As with many things, it was a stray thought in the many I have.

Picture it:
Pompous noble stands up and puts in a bid of 600 gold like its an amazing amount

Horse says, "Oh, is that all you can afford? I guess that's about right given those clothes your wearing."

Bidding war starts just to prove just who is the most "noble" in the crowd.... and the first noble doesn't want to stop lest he lose face. His fellows egg it on, knowing when to stop, just to push the price up.

Luruar priestess rescues the horse from the noble after its bought

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Sep 2021 20:54:39
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
892 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2021 :  21:44:31  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

2e Waterdeep: City of Splendors, Book IV page 12, it has this:

"Bringing this to the elder lord, Hemmerem was given money to keep this news quiet (and young Piiradost was sent to live with lesser relatives in Iriaebor)."

Edit: Oh, my understanding is that for domesticated horses, it would be Chauntea since her portfolio includes Agriculture (which includes the raising of domesticated animals for food and other uses).



Well, was more thinking of the part of awakening the horses (i.e. Lurue is goddess of talking beasts).... I was just thinking about bringing a horse up to the auction block and it starts talking about itself. As with many things, it was a stray thought in the many I have.

Picture it:
Pompous noble stands up and puts in a bid of 600 gold like its an amazing amount

Horse says, "Oh, is that all you can afford? I guess that's about right given those clothes your wearing."

Bidding war starts just to prove just who is the most "noble" in the crowd.... and the first noble doesn't want to stop lest he lose face. His fellows egg it on, knowing when to stop, just to push the price up.

Luruar priestess rescues the horse from the noble after its bought



Ah, yes, the Mr. Ed spell.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2021 :  07:13:43  Show Profile Send Kelcimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Exodite!

quote:
Originally posted by Exodite
I could see trade caravans taking overland routes (instead of those coming by barge) being stopped by patrols for a toll charged by the wagon/oxen, obviously at a higher rate than those that go through the city


Exactly. That would be the first thing some mid-wit ruler would do. They would run into some problems and then other people would refine the system.

One of the counters is that caravans could simply "go around" Iriaebor. This overlooks the fact that land is not naturally made for wagons to cross, especially wagons loaded down with goods. Roads are a thing. Especially when you have a wagon train. How many roads "go around" Iriaebor? It wouldn't be hard to have castles at a strategic small villages along those roads, from which they could issue patrols in the area to the east and west looking for caravans.

And if a patrol sees a caravan? "Hey, you want to go that way to get to the toll. No, worries! We are happy to escort you so that you are better protected from random threats! Honestly! Has nothing to do with making sure you get to the toll!"

How many tolls would you need stretched out to the north and south of Iriaebor? I dunno. But enough that going even farther to the North or South to avoid them would be not worth it.

Could people circumvent this? Sure. If they were not on a wagon, then they could get through no problem. If they put all their goods in a bag of holding or similar extra-dimensional space, they again, they could get through no problem. I'm not suggesting there aren't ways for people to get around, especially if they have hot items that they need to keep on the DL. What this would do, though, is cast a net that would catch most wagon trains.

I don't think they even need to be taxed at a higher rate. Just a little natural corruption would suffice.

"Oh hey, yeah, the guy who is supposed to sign your slip had to visit his sick mother. I'll have to hold you here until he gets back. Might be an hour."

"Are you kidding me? We have a storm coming and I need to make time!"

"Well maybe if some people donated to his mother's get well fund, she'd be better, and he could be here."

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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2021 :  07:20:09  Show Profile Send Kelcimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello TheIriaeban!

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban Iriaebor used to be a violent place. So to keep that down, about 3,000 of the 8,000 are kept within the city at all times. That leaves 5,000 to do the actual patrolling. Each patrol is about 10 men so that would be 500 patrols. But, you also have to take into account days of rest, required training (all members of the Shield are required to be fully trained in both mounted and foot combat), rotation (so that all troops are familiar with city and plains combat), that cuts into that considerably (let's be generous and say that gives us 450 patrols). Oh, we have specific facilities outside the city that need to be guarded. That would knock it down again to say 200 to 300 patrols. So, we have 200 to 300 patrols to cover about 7,700 square miles (with the emphasis on guarding the trade road and river since that is the city's lifeblood).


I think that is enough to do the job. Remember calvary is fast, caravans are slow, and there would be only so many roads.

Edited by - Kelcimer on 18 Sep 2021 07:20:56
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