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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  08:55:37  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

good stuff about Eilistraee



Nonsense! Gods are ebil!!11!!! This ONE series says it so it is thus and so!

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

... The one good matriarchy (aside from the wychlaran) ...



This is just anti-Thayvian propaganda. Rashemen is a racist, xenophobic s**t-hole with a close minded society full of disparities, internment camps for male spellcasters and an elite caste keeping everyone else in check through intimidation, magical manipulation and outright murder.

Oh, but they're sexy chicks with masks so it's good! Gotcha ...

Sorry for the intermission, looking forward to your next reviews VikingLegion!
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  10:56:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, I never supported the "gods" are ebil" thingy (both in this thread and other ones). This case is also extreme because it extends to the whole faith and even known characters.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 31 Jul 2018 13:25:14
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  14:13:07  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Hey, I never supported the "gods" are ebil" thingy (both in this thread and other ones). This case is also extreme because it extends to the whole faith and even known characters.



Sorry, I was making fun of the political stance of others on godly matters around these halls. It was a (failed it seems) attempt at being sarcastic.

I completely agree with what you wrote up until the wychlaran part.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  14:34:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, it was my mistake, should have seen it

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  22:51:36  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

Lastly, this book had at least two references to something called Reclamation though that doesn't appear on any of my lists nor on Elaine's Wikipedia page. A cancelled novel? Was it finished and simply not published, or was it merely a concept project that never got greenlit? I MUST KNOW MOAR!!
Here you go:

What it might have been:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1707264.Reclamation

What unfortunately happened:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10898


Edited by - Mirtek on 31 Jul 2018 22:53:12
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  23:11:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elaine posted one snippet of that story at some point here, I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT: Elaine did indeed post a few reclamation chapters a couple years ago, but they seem to have been taken down.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 01 Aug 2018 00:28:00
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2394 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2018 :  15:16:07  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion


Lastly, this book had at least two references to something called Reclamation though that doesn't appear on any of my lists nor on Elaine's Wikipedia page. A cancelled novel? Was it finished and simply not published, or was it merely a concept project that never got greenlit? I MUST KNOW MOAR!!


Reclamation was intended to wrap up the Songs & Swords series. It picked up right after the events of The Dreamspheres and answered a number of questions posed by the series to date. The novel was contracted, outlined, and partially written. Unfortunately, I was unable to finish it due to a long period of ill health. The folks at WotC worked with me on this as long as they could, but the Realms moved on with the Spellplague and 5E.


quote:
Quick tangent - after looking at her complete list of works, I see something called The Blood Red Harp set in the world of the MMORPG Everquest. Holy crap, I practically LIVED in Norrath for most of my late teens and early twenties, I was so hooked on that game.


I think you might like this story. The project was ill-fated and the book got no promotion and very little distribution, but I think it's one of my better early novels. Gamers seemed to think that it got the world right. I did a lot of research, of course, but found the actual video game the most difficult part of it. I truly, deeply suck at video games. As in, repeatedly getting lost during the tutorial and falling off the platform of the elven tree city. My son Sean, who was a competative first-person-shooter gamer, observed this over my shoulder and murmurred in awe, "How is that even POSSIBLE?" I had to have him create some high-level characters for me so I could explore the world without getting killed by bumblebees. Good times.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 02 Aug 2018 15:18:12
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2018 :  21:52:14  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Before you read LP, since Eilistraee means really a lot to me, and since I respect your opinion about the Realms book and characters, I feel compelled to warn you that Smedman's version of Eilistraee is not a good or accurate portrayal of her, not even remotely. The LP books are full of lore gaffes: from minutiae, to total contradiction of canon, to the drastic warping of characters.



Irennan,

Why do you think I'm so reluctant to read this trilogy and keep bypassing it for other books? :)

I recall, while reading/reviewing the WoTSQ series, being very confused by the depiction of the Eilistraeen faith. They seemed so angry, so militaristic (to the point of expansionism), so misandristic. I thought maybe I just didn't know the lore well enough and my idea of what Eilistraee stood for was way off. You were the one that chimed in back then to let me know my instincts were correct and that Smedman horribly misrepresented them. You were very eloquent in your defense of Eilistraee, citing several examples (as you have here) of just how wrong she got the lore. This might sound odd, but your name is now inextricably linked with Eilistraee for me. Weird? Even though I wouldn't know you if I bumped into you on the street, I literally think of your username whenever I see a reference to the Dark Maiden.

After you set me straight I had a hard time reconciling that book and the Athans follow-up. I had to make up some head-canon that they were simply a splinter-cell of the main faith, one that went rotten over the years and embraced a more angry side of the faith. With your comments on the LP trilogy, I think I will go one step further and treat the entire story as one big pile of apocrypha - much like the Double Diamond Triangle series, just a story made up (in-world) that is outright false, bad propaganda, or a smear campaign. Especially since it will have no lasting effect and essentially gets wiped out by the edition change, I can go into it with a feeling of skepticism. Honestly I don't even want to read it at all, other than to satisfy my need for completion.

Again, your comments are very appreciated, and I hope we can have a bit of fun eviscerating the LP trilogy for its ghastly errors.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 04 Aug 2018 22:34:02
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2018 :  22:32:08  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Reclamation was intended to wrap up the Songs & Swords series. It picked up right after the events of The Dreamspheres and answered a number of questions posed by the series to date. The novel was contracted, outlined, and partially written. Unfortunately, I was unable to finish it due to a long period of ill health. The folks at WotC worked with me on this as long as they could, but the Realms moved on with the Spellplague and 5E.


I'm sorry if that dredged up any bad memories for you. I just got done reading the links that Mirtek provided a couple posts up and now understand more of the behind-the-scenes info regarding Reclamation and what looked to be a tough stage of your life. I probably should've done a bit of research on my own instead of taking the lazy way out. I apologize if that felt like picking at an old scar.

quote:

I think you might like this story. The project was ill-fated and the book got no promotion and very little distribution, but I think it's one of my better early novels. Gamers seemed to think that it got the world right. I did a lot of research, of course, but found the actual video game the most difficult part of it. I truly, deeply suck at video games. As in, repeatedly getting lost during the tutorial and falling off the platform of the elven tree city. My son Sean, who was a competative first-person-shooter gamer, observed this over my shoulder and murmurred in awe, "How is that even POSSIBLE?" I had to have him create some high-level characters for me so I could explore the world without getting killed by bumblebees. Good times.



Don't beat yourself up too badly, EVERYONE falls off the bridges of Kelethin (the wood-elf tree city) at some point in their Everquest career. It mostly happens to low-level characters who are multitasking and raising their Alcohol Tolerance skill while completing other missions! That story of your son being awestruck by your, ahem... utter lack of gaming skill... brought a smile to my face, similar to when I watch my wife play God of War :)

I just ordered a copy of Blood Red Harp for about $6. I was thrilled to see that Castle Mistmoore is involved in the story. I will probably squee in fanboy delight if Mayong himself makes an appearance. Just for the hell of it I also ordered a copy of Pathfinder Tales: Winter Witch because, well... this brings me to a point I don't want to bring up, but:

After writing the previous review of Best of the Realms III: The Stories of Elaine Cunningham, it dawned on me that this will be the final time I read one of your Realms novels (not counting future re-reads, of course), and that makes me unhappy. I've really grown to love Kemp's works, and highly enjoy Byers, Baker, Salvatore, etc., but facing another ~10 years worth of published novels on my list and knowing not a one of them is an EC, that has me down a bit. Your contributions to this very thread have been one of my favorite parts about sustaining it, and I hope you continue to chime in from time to time, though I would totally understand if your interest in it wanes as we move on to the books of 2008 and beyond.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 04 Aug 2018 22:37:15
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2018 :  02:15:01  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Before you read LP, since Eilistraee means really a lot to me, and since I respect your opinion about the Realms book and characters, I feel compelled to warn you that Smedman's version of Eilistraee is not a good or accurate portrayal of her, not even remotely. The LP books are full of lore gaffes: from minutiae, to total contradiction of canon, to the drastic warping of characters.



Irennan,

Why do you think I'm so reluctant to read this trilogy and keep bypassing it for other books? :)


I've been very open about the nature of the books here (and elsewhere), but I'm not the only one to point the mistakes out, so I thought that it was a combination of influences.

quote:
I recall, while reading/reviewing the WoTSQ series, being very confused by the depiction of the Eilistraeen faith. They seemed so angry, so militaristic (to the point of expansionism), so misandristic. I thought maybe I just didn't know the lore well enough and my idea of what Eilistraee stood for was way off. You were the one that chimed in back then to let me know my instincts were correct and that Smedman horribly misrepresented them. You were very eloquent in your defense of Eilistraee, citing several examples (as you have here) of just how wrong she got the lore. This might sound odd, but your name is now inextricably linked with Eilistraee for me. Weird? Even though I wouldn't know you if I bumped into you on the street, I literally think of your username whenever I see a reference to the Dark Maiden.


The last part is quite funny indeed, but it also makes me smile a bit.

quote:
After you set me straight I had a hard time reconciling that book and the Athans follow-up. I had to make up some head-canon that they were simply a splinter-cell of the main faith, one that went rotten over the years and embraced a more angry side of the faith. With your comments on the LP trilogy, I think I will go one step further and treat the entire story as one big pile of apocrypha - much like the Double Diamond Triangle series, just a story made up (in-world) that is outright false, bad propaganda, or a smear campaign. Especially since it will have no lasting effect and essentially gets wiped out by the edition change, I can go into it with a feeling of skepticism. Honestly I don't even want to read it at all, other than to satisfy my need for completion.

Again, your comments are very appreciated, and I hope we can have a bit of fun eviscerating the LP trilogy for its ghastly errors.



At this point, it might very well be an apocrypha. WotC completely ignored those books, except when they reversed them (and even then, they basically pretended that they had never happened).

I feel sorry to have ruined your possible enjoyment of the books, but on the other hand, I'm glad that you don't see Smedman's portrayal of Eilistraee as believable.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2394 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2018 :  14:26:59  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I'm sorry if that dredged up any bad memories for you.



No worries. As a reader, I invest a considerable amount of time and energy into certain series, and if a series were to suddenly come to a stop, I would like to know why. So as a writer, I don't mind answering the sort of question that Reader Me would like to ask.



quote:
After writing the previous review of Best of the Realms III: The Stories of Elaine Cunningham, it dawned on me that this will be the final time I read one of your Realms novels (not counting future re-reads, of course), and that makes me unhappy. I've really grown to love Kemp's works, and highly enjoy Byers, Baker, Salvatore, etc., but facing another ~10 years worth of published novels on my list and knowing not a one of them is an EC, that has me down a bit. Your contributions to this very thread have been one of my favorite parts about sustaining it, and I hope you continue to chime in from time to time, though I would totally understand if your interest in it wanes as we move on to the books of 2008 and beyond.



Thank you for this. That's very kind. I wish I'd kept writing FR novels during the last 10 years of their publication, but unless I get a Tardis for my upcoming birthday, that situation is likely to remain unchanged. Alas.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 07 Aug 2018 14:27:31
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2018 :  13:47:35  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Up next.... oh man I really need to start that Lady Penitent trilogy. It's sitting on the top shelf, just staring me down, daring me to crack it open. I should do it, for Seravin's sake if nothing else.


And... I finished book 2 of the standalone Dungeons series: The Howling Delve.

I recall commenting on this writer after reading one of the previous anthologies, it was Realms of the Dragons II in which we were introduced to several newcomer authors. Overall it was a decent collection of shorts, but I remember specifically mentioning Jaleigh Johnson's story as the one that stood out to me above the rest from a quality and style standpoint. It was no fluke, she's definitely "an exceptionally talented storyteller" in Elaine Cunningham's words.

The relationship between Kall and Aazen was extremely well done. I also really liked the way she described Meisha's innate sorcerous mastery over fire. The dungeon itself is an ancient, abandoned dwarfhold that also served as a prison for a demonic presence. I don't have a whole lot more to add specifically, my notes for this one were incredibly sparse. I guess that means I just enjoyed it as a smooth page-turner and didn't get sidetracked much. Good story overall.

Up next... I don't know... maybe it's time to bite the bullet and finally get to that Lady Penitent Trilogy.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2018 :  08:56:41  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hurrah!
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  01:26:40  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished book 1 of the LP trilogy; Sacrifice of the Widow. Right there on page ONE Eilistraee is introduced as a goddess of kindness and light. And then her followers proceed to act in a way that is anything but indicative of either of those things, as Irennan has already amply displayed.

I had a way of dealing with this, of reconciling it, that was working for several portions of the book. See, I view the various faiths of Faerun not unlike our own world's various political parties: all of them think they, and they alone, know the sole way of living a good life; and all of them, to some degree or another, engage in disinformation and smear tactics against rivals. So when Q'arlynd mentions how males can't participate in the dance or become priests (only lay followers), perhaps that's just what he was led to believe growing up in Ched Nessad. Or when Szorak, a follower of Vhaeraun, thinks the following:

"Vhaeraun might have united all of the darkelves under a single deity millenia ago, but Eilistraee had proved as greedy as Lolth and had stolen the females away from the Masked Lord's worship. She'd taught them to exclude males from their circle, to subjugate and revile them instead."

Maybe that is simply his perspective on the matter, the viewpoint he was indoctrinated with in order to generate anger towards a rival faith.

This angle was working for me for awhile. Until I saw more and more of the Eilistraeens in the Promenade and how they were acting pretty much exactly in the manner the Nightshades thought they would. Actually probably a bit worse. They were awful. Arrogant, vindictive, little better than Lolthites. Cavatina was the worst offender. I tried to tell myself she's simply a bad apple, an incredibly conceited and zealous follower that takes her faith to a dangerous extreme (every group has 'em). She was described as being "vain, as proud as any Matron Mother." And even though she was the most egregious of the bunch, she was far from the only one acting in that manner. My ability to handwave away the terrible depiction of this faith crumbled as example after example kept pouring in.

But curiously enough, and probably because we've discussed it in great detail beforehand, I was still able to get some enjoyment from this book. Our ripping of Smedman's innacurate depiction of Eilistraee's faith probably inured me to how bad it is. And since I was prepared for it, I was able to focus on other aspects of the book, which was fairly well written. I enjoyed her House of Serpents trilogy, and this book had a similar quality of decently interesting characters, a good mix of action and dialogue, a great many elements of the surrounding world incorporated in. In short, it was pretty good as long as you can reconcile her butchering of everything Eilistraee stands for. Also, Halistraa (who I despise utterly) wasn't featured nearly as prominently as I feared she would be.

Up next, it hasn't driven me mad yet, so I'll continue on with this series in book 2: Storm of the Dead.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  01:40:35  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Book 2 introduces a concept that I have a deep dislike of (and that was thankfully undone), as if Smedman's mistakes alone weren't enough mud thrown on Eilistraee. As for book 1, not only its portrayal of Eilistraee was crap, but it also removed one of the most interesting deities, Vhaeraun (and Selvetarm too, his relationship with Eilistraee&Vhaeraun had so much potential--still has, since he's back alongside Vhaeraun and all else--and they squander him like that? I think you can see where this series is going), by having him act massively out of character as well. First off, Vhaeraun is explicitly stated to be more than willing to put divergencies aside when it comes to dealing with Lolth, yet the first thing he does is... squandering resources against his sister? Secondly, his plan was outright ridiculous. Attack her on her own home realm? Where she can spot anything and anyone immediately. A Realm that is located on the borders of Arvandor, where the entire Seldarine reside, and from where they can assist Eilistraee in a heartbeat? Really? This was Vhaeraun's master plan? Ed Greenwood provided some lore to clarify on this, and of Eilistraee's lack of mercy for his brother (in fact, in her lore it is said that she doesn't hate Vhaeraun, but simply mourns his selfishness and cruelty), but I'll give you the gist of it after you're done with all 3 books.

I disliked Cavatina as a character. Smedman had to go for the hyper-zealous fanatic cliché, in a faith that has freedom, compassion, celebration of beauty as its main points. Also, she has basically no development: she starts the story as an abusive little s**t, and remains so for the rest of the series. She also completely misses the point of her own faith. She came off as obsessed with some kind of redemption, and I really don't know what she has to redeem for (aside from being an abusive little s**t, that is), being her born an EIlistraeean, on the surface? I mean, that completely misses the point of Eilistraee (then again, everything in those book does). I guess that's Semdman's weird idea of redemption.

More nonsense (general and Eilistraee-focused) will come in Storm of the Dead, alongside a plot hole as huge as a star.

-------------------

PS: As far as metaphors go, Eilistraee playing chess using her followers as pawns is the most awful kind of metaphor that Smedman could have used for this goddess. Her whole point is helping the drow open their hearts and rediscover (and embrace) what was taken away from them, to break their chains. Eilistraee accompanies them through this quest, she helps them in practical ways like a mother would, but she is always subtle, delicate, extremely careful to never force a choice on her people, because she wants them to find their own path. Here, she comes across as someone who moves her followers around like expendable pawns.

That said, on a side note, the game itself wasn't real, otherwise the books would have major issues. For example, Selvetarm was still sitting at the table after being killed; and the game was generally logically incosistent except as a metaphor. In fact--since the actions of the mortals were supposedly represented on the board--either the moves in the game determined what happened, or the actions of the mortals did. In the first case, what the mortals did--and therefore the whole 3 novels--reflected by the pieces moving on the board, would have been pointless, since the result would have been decided by the game, no matter what had happened on the Prime. OTOH, in the second case, with the mortals' actions determining their own outcome but still being reflected in the game, then the only possibility was that moves on the board became possible only after the equivalent thing had happened on the Prime, and the game would have been pointless except as a metaphor, since the various moves would have been just representations of what happened in the world.

Also, no one with half a brain would ever accept to play by Lolth's rules, especially when they could have continued doing their thing against her without bending to her conditions.

----------------------------------

quote:
"Vhaeraun might have united all of the darkelves under a single deity millenia ago, but Eilistraee had proved as greedy as Lolth and had stolen the females away from the Masked Lord's worship. She'd taught them to exclude males from their circle, to subjugate and revile them instead."


While it makes sense for a Vhaeraunite to say something like that, just for information purpose, that sentence refers to the age that Elaine depicts in Evermeet: Island of Elves, when Eilistraee was wandering on Toril (she explains this to Sharlario and his son). The Dark Maiden tried to oppose Vhaeraun's and Ghaundaur's influence on the Ilythiiri (Lolth wasn't there yet), but she was weaker than them, and the Seldarine didn't support her; she lost, and both the goddess and most of her followers ended up as exiles from Ilythiir. According to Demihuman Deities, she only retained a very small follower base in that kingdom, while Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur maintained most of it. Later, when the First Sundering hit (after Lolth turned her eyes to Toril), most of Vhaeraun's followers died in the cataclysm, allowing Lolth to start on a much better footing. In the lore, Vhaeraun blames Lolth's rise to influence on Eilistraee's efforts to oppose him.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Aug 2018 03:23:21
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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36779 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  02:22:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always thought that sava was weird, anyway, even without mixing in divine players gaming for unreasonable odds.

A prior quote of mine:

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Considering the drow love of chaos, I'm surprised the dice aren't used more often than once per game per player. Especially since -- unless those dice are not standard 1d6s -- there's only a 1 in 36 chance of being able to move one of the opponent's pieces.



More frequent rolls, with differing outcomes, would make more sense to me.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Aug 2018 02:23:01
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  03:24:47  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it depends on the origins of the game. Was it created while Lolth was dominant, or back in Ilythiir? In the latter case, the drow weren't fans of chaos back then. The game might have been created in Ilythiir, and then its aesthetics changed by Lolthites.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Taleras
Seeker

75 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  04:19:24  Show Profile Send Taleras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Quick tangent - after looking at her complete list of works, I see something called The Blood Red Harp set in the world of the MMORPG Everquest. Holy crap, I practically LIVED in Norrath for most of my late teens and early twenties, I was so hooked on that game.


quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I think you might like this story. The project was ill-fated and the book got no promotion and very little distribution, but I think it's one of my better early novels. Gamers seemed to think that it got the world right. I did a lot of research, of course, but found the actual video game the most difficult part of it. I truly, deeply suck at video games. As in, repeatedly getting lost during the tutorial and falling off the platform of the elven tree city. My son Sean, who was a competative first-person-shooter gamer, observed this over my shoulder and murmurred in awe, "How is that even POSSIBLE?" I had to have him create some high-level characters for me so I could explore the world without getting killed by bumblebees. Good times.



Oh man, I just got SO excited! This book has been on my Amazon wish list for so long and I have yet to pull the trigger. I played way more EQ than I should have in high school, and have relapsed many times over the years. Most recently on the TLP server and Project2002. So much nostalgia. I'm gonna order this ASAP and give it a read.

Edited by - Taleras on 14 Aug 2018 04:20:24
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  05:09:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I think it depends on the origins of the game. Was it created while Lolth was dominant, or back in Ilythiir? In the latter case, the drow weren't fans of chaos back then. The game might have been created in Ilythiir, and then its aesthetics changed by Lolthites.



Dunno, but it was played in the War of the Spider Queen books. And there's no reason why, even if the game was millennia old, that it couldn't have changed at some point along the way. Even just a regional variant or houserule that got popular could wind up being a thing, like the jackpot on Free Parking in Monopoly -- it's not an official rule, and the game is only decades old, but I don't know that I've ever played a game of Monopoly without some version of that jackpot.

Modern drow are all about chaos, yet sava is just chess with a miniscule chance for chaos added in. The die roll isn't even mandatory -- so we're talking straight chess with an odd house rule.

That just doesn't seem drowish -- adopt a game played on the surface that follows very strict rules, and change nothing other than adding a less than 3% chance that one time an unexpected element could be added to the game?

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Irennan
Great Reader

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Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  06:49:40  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Lolthite drow are not really about chaos--Lolth likes to claim that, but she only embraces chaos intended as messy conflict and murders (strife). And their society is basically made up of tons of strict rules that micromanage every aspect of their life (down to hairstyle, lol), amounting to stagnating tyranny and tradition, while only giving an appearance of chaos. Sava would fit that.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  10:09:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Well, Lolthite drow are not really about chaos--Lolth likes to claim that, but she only embraces chaos intended as messy conflict and murders (strife). And their society is basically made up of tons of strict rules that micromanage every aspect of their life (down to hairstyle, lol), amounting to stagnating tyranny and tradition, while only giving an appearance of chaos. Sava would fit that.



But with only a 3% chance of chaos, if someone opts to take it, it's not even giving an appearance of chaos. And yet it was described in the novels as having that chaos in it that appealed to drow.

I don't recall drow society being that micromanaged. Certainly there are rules about advancement, but even that mostly comes down to "if the victim can't prove it, it didn't happen."

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Irennan
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Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  13:26:33  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, that's the only rule as far as crime goes. However, when it comes to every other aspect of their life, the micromanage is definitely there. Ridiculous censorship, many stupid taboos and "don'ts" about relationships, lack of freedom when it comes to choosing their life (the Liriel novels highlight this perfectly), extremely structured social interactions, extremely structured hierarchy, and even small forms of expression (like hairstyle) seem to be decided by station. Sounds hyper-oppressive and micromanaged to me, which is also why Eilistraee values personal freedom so much in her effort to change the drow.

I agree that 3% chance of a roll doesn't even give the appearance of chaos, though, I would up that chance to about 10-15%.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  14:33:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I recall, that was all more custom and societal expectation, as opposed to laws.

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Irennan
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Posted - 14 Aug 2018 :  14:42:19  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not laws as we intend it, still norms that had to be respected, mostly deriving from Lolth&clergy's influence.

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VikingLegion
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Posted - 17 Aug 2018 :  00:54:37  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like you guys, I don't take the sava game too seriously, it's just window dressing for the story. Whether or not the events play out because of the game, or the game movements are influenced by the mortals, ahh who cares?

I finished Storm of the Dead and have a lot of mixed feelings. I'd like to find out more about this undead minotaur Casus.

The whole "blended" Eilistraee/Vhaeraun, possibly being Vhaeraun that won the fight and is "wearing" Eilistraee is an interesting angle, but I'm not sure how to feel about it overall. I like how (if this is even what truly happened) Eilistraee absorbed his worshipers and shows physical manifestations/alterations. And a part of me thinks Smedman purposely wrote the Eilistraeens so heavily misandric so that now she can show how the males and females - prior enemies - now must come together and learn to live with one another.

Or maybe she just got it all wrong as we already surmised.

Cavatina continues to be supremely arrogant. I like how Wendonai exposed her. But once again, is this another case of Smedman purposely writing a person (or organization) as awful just to set up the redemption arc?

I really like Sshamath, the wizard-dominated drow city. It's kinda like Thay: Underdark. I particularly enjoyed the various Colleges, especially the one Q'arlynd is trying to form, the College of Ancient Arcana. I was instantly interested in the various apprentices he gathered to his banner, I thought Smedman did a great job making those characters intriguing right off the bat. I especially liked when they mind-linked and formed "Captain Planet" to open up the magical door hiding the selu-kira(sp?) The other schools were pretty cool too - I LOVED the imagery of the master of the Divination school, with orbs constantly circling around his head, showing various scenes and persons he is mentally tracking - like the magical equivalent of some high tech, cyber Bond villain. I was surprised that he had a Sun Elf and a human in his school, I guess Sshamath is much more egalitarian, or at the very least, cosmopolitan than other drow cities by far.

As for the raid on Kiaransalee's temple - I really liked the drama/tension formed between the various factions. Obviously drow are mistrustful to begin with, but then throw in Protectors, Nightshadows (who are *just* learning to get along) with representatives from 2 different wizardly colleges (are they cooperating or competing?) and you have a nice recipe for a tense situation.

My two biggest problems with this book were:

The whole Faerzress subplot. I never cared for it much as a Forgotten Realms mechanic to begin with. But now we find out it is intimately tied specifically to drow, and is the cause for them to be drawn to, and remain in, the Underdark. To me this reeks of a mandate from up high, so that once the supercharged Faerzress is brought low, we can see SO MANY MORE DROW characters coming up to the surface and joining other mainstream products. Call me a cynic, but it feels like this entire trilogy was cooked up by marketing.

And even though I really dig how the Crones were gathering up voidstones to slowly but surely build a monstrous Engine of Death Energy, it doesn't strike me as right that they can convert that into something that enhances the Faerzress. It's like me pouring gasoline into my cellphone when the battery is low. In my mind it works like this: Positive Energy powers life - plants, animals, etc. Negative Energy breaks down said life (aging, disease, etc.) and also gives a mockery of it to the various undead types. Magical, or "Weave" energy, specifically something linked to Fae, should not be compatible with what the Crones were cooking up. I don't know, I'm probably explaining that terribly. TLDR: it just didn't work for me.

I also had a big problem with how easily Kiaransalee was erased from existence. High magic or no, we're talking about a DEITY here. Yeah, I know Karsus tried to use a form of it to subsume Mystryl (or whatever she was called then). I get it, it's powerful stuff. But they not only erased her, but also screwed with the memory of every living (and unliving) worshipper, presumably on the planet. This is kind of like going back to the Time of Troubles books when TSR decided assassins were too mean for their game and suddenly they're all gone.

So... there were several elements of this book I found interesting and enjoyed reading, despite the continual butchering of Eilistraee and her followers. But there were also some huge points of stickiness that were either too contrived, distasteful, improbable, or just downright bad. Up next; might as well finish it up, upward and onward to book 3: Ascendancy of the Last.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 17 Aug 2018 00:56:43
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Aug 2018 :  02:37:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

Call me a cynic, but it feels like this entire trilogy was cooked up by marketing.


It's my opinion that the War of the Spider Queen was a marketing thing. It was poorly coordinately and executed, had little impact on the setting as a whole, and made less sense than the shows my son watched when he was 4.

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Irennan
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Posted - 17 Aug 2018 :  04:28:02  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
About Vhaeraun "blending" with Eilistraee, or "wearing her", that was not actually the case, but Eilistraee merely temporarily taking Vhaeraun's portfolio (including the portfolio drow males), but you'll see--Ed also gave an explanation to what happened, but I'll say more when you finish the books.

While forcing the followers to cooperate would have been interesting (if not for Smedman going on in her painting the Eilistraeeans as abusive), Eilistraee as the Masked Lady felt as a huge waste (and also a lost possibility IMHO).

Some might say that it was a kind of growth, that Eilistraee needed to abandon idealism, frivolity and such (not that in Smedman's version there was much of it), and start to get "things done". However' it is definitely not the case, and that kind of (non-)growth defeats one of the most compelling aspects of her character and story.

Eilistraee's not some starry-eyed girl who follows vague or frivolous ideals; she knows far too well how hard her path is, and has seen and felt the weight of pain first-hand. However, while this goddess is more than aware that the world is far from bright and happy, she also firmly believes that the possibility for joy exists even at the height of suffering, and she wants all--especially the drow--to see and find it.

Eilistraee is this goddess who chose to share the fate of her people--to be one of them--sacrificing luxury, comfort, and safety, just so that she could be by their side when they would need her the most. She made that choice knowing what was awaiting her (quite literally, she had foreseen it), that she would bleed for her decision during the centuries and fight alone against forces far grater than her, but she still did it. And despite acknowledging the kind of reality that she was facing, despite all the struggles and losses, not only she has never stopped standing for her people, but she never let her light fade. She never became jaded, she kept on loving and dreaming and teaching the drow to do the same; turned her "scars" into lights for her people.

The Dark Maiden embodies the hope that the drow have to find a better existence, to rise above their pain and demons and smile to life. All that because she's one of them: she shared that battle--she "knows" how things actually are--yet she still has the strength to find the beauty in what was broken, where no one else would even bother, and does all she can to heal it and make it flourish for all. She teaches the drow to do the same, proves to them that they can do it too--because she, a drow like them, does it.

Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find amidst all the pain and despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio? She lost all that, and she comes off as about killing Lolth, which is incredibly shallow and untrue to her character (although perhaps Smedman's/Athans' version of this goddess never had all that to begin with, as it isn't true to Ed's version of her--and say all you want about Ed's writing, he can create compelling worlds and characters, and Eilistraee's one of the most compelling characters I've come across, while Vhaeraun is one of the most compelling villains. Too bad that Smedman got to put her hands on them).

The missed opportunity with the Masked Lady thing is for more development of her character and Vhaeraun's. It would have been awesome (to me) to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun trying to get past their differences and working together against their mother, learning from each other (and their followers alongside them), rather than Eilistraee simply taking Vhaeraun's power and adding it to hers, and that having consequences on her. However, that chance was squandered in favor of magicking up changes. I mean, such kind of development is possible once again in the present era, but WotC has stopped the novel line except for Drizzt, so it isn't likely.

--------------------------

I liked Ssamath too, I think it was one of the few well-developed angles of these books, and added much-needed variety to the representation of drow cities in novels.

The part about the faerzress was honestly ridiculous. It never gave addiction, in so many years of FR history we never saw any of Eilistraee's or Vhaeraun's followers experiencing withdrawal from faerzress, or drow new to the surface experiencing it and wanting so badly to return underground. That's stupid (and, on a side note, Liriel--whom Eilistraee even helped in her journey--had already made drow magic possible on the surface, and her problem wasn't faerzress withdrawal, but how important her drow magic was to her). Smedman just pulled that out of thin air. The faerzress being created by the elves is also false, and doesn't make any sense: it *far* predates the arrival of the elves on Toril, and is the byproduct of the energies that shaped the Underdark.

As for the marketing angle, these books were written for a much different reason (prepare the drow for 4e, I'll link what Perkins told me about it after you're done with the series. Even though, perhaps, despite making the drow one-note and even more monolithic, this series could give more excuses to people for creating actual Drizzt clones, and allowing Drizzt to be given more exposition was one of the supposed goals of the changes brought by this series, according to Perkins).

The High Magic ritual was similarly ridiculous, but also a gigantic plot hole. So, you discover a spell that can strike any deity down, because it targets all the people in the world, and not the deity, and you use it on a demigoddess who definitely is the lesser threat, and who is only worshiped by such a narrow % of the drow? That's doubly stupid when you think how useful it would have been for Eilistraee's goal of freeing the drow: Lolth being forgotten would make that far easier (it would leave the drow free to seek out alternatives, without fear and without a monolithic presence at the center of their life). With such a weapon, you'd also wonder why the hell they didn't spam it and destroy all their enemies.

Also, if some newbie to High Magic can cast such a spell, why didn't the elves, the freaking masters of High Magic, use it to delete Lolth and Gruumsh over the eras (and the FR elves have proven to be so very trigger-happy with that kind of magic, so you can't even say that they didn't want to risk using such powers)?

In any case, we later find out (in 5e) that the spell wasn't successful. Necromancers kept remembering Kiaransalee, and invoking her, eventually leading to her return.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Aug 2018 20:07:41
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Veylandemar
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Posted - 17 Aug 2018 :  07:03:30  Show Profile Send Veylandemar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just chiming in on the Kiaransalee portion of the thread. Her removal from the Realms and the minds of her followers is a throwback to events in the second edition multiverse. It is heavily touched on by the Planescape adventures 'The Great Modron March' and 'Dead Gods', whereby as a precursor event to both adventures, Kiaransalee slew Orcus and stole the realm of Thanatos by the same means.
Orcus, at the time, was divine or semi-divine and Kiaransalee and her Crones struck all memory of his name from the minds of his followers, barring a few pertinent individuals.
Like most Grand Evils, he didn't exactly stay dead, but that's addressed in said adventures and I'll only go into detail if requested.

I did like the callback to said events and it was somewhat apt that Kiaransalee was ended by the means she herself employed against one of her greater rivals. But despite my enjoyment of the author honoring that particular snippet of lore, I too found representations of the gods to be jarring and conflicting with previous iterations.

~V
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Irennan
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Posted - 17 Aug 2018 :  07:12:56  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing is that, while it was a funny case of poetic justice, it also was a mortal doing some spell and erasing a goddess from the memory of every living being. That raises all the kinds of problems that I've pointed out (why didn't they use it with Lolth, why didn't they spam the spell and autowin, why didn't the elves do that millennia before--being they so trigger-happy with world-spanning cataclysms and effects--and so on). Overall, it was a huge plot hole, aside from being inconsistent with other lore.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 17 Aug 2018 10:34:23
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Aug 2018 :  10:29:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drow using High Magic is also inconsistent with prior lore.

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