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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2019 :  19:55:16  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad you liked my idea, and yeah Sune being Ishtar's/Ish-Tarri's daughter works.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2019 :  20:34:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Odd discovery in Prophet of Moonshae.

Over 1700 years ago Gotha was terrorising the world. Then 237 years ago he flies north over the Endless Wastes and the Sunrise Mountains (although that direction would be a north westerly flight i think) to some ice land where he is imprisoned.

The direction of his flight makes me think that Gotha laired around Mulhorand or perhaps one of the Dragon Overlords of the south (Shaar, etc)

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2019 :  17:59:44  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, I was reminded of this bit from the Book of Necromancers (which also Includes the Iron Spires of Ereshkigal), were Loviathar takes on the role of Inanna/Ishtar, specifically from Inanna's Descent into the Underworld, and a bit of the Epic of Gilgamesh:
quote:
When Our Lady of Pain discovered her sister had left the Land of the Living and taken refuge in the World of the Dead, her wrath and fury were boundless. She descended to the Land of No Return, through the caverns and
lower regions known only to this spirits, until she reached the city of Erkalla itself, ruled by Cyric, the King of the Dead. And Loviatar approached the gate of the city, known as Ganzir, and pounded her Flail of Tears on the door, demanding to be let in, but her command was unanswered, and her screams resounded through the streets of Erkalla:

"Gatekeeper, I am here at Ganzir before the Walls of Erkalla. Open these gates for me! I am Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, Mistress of Sorrow, and I shall smash down this door if you do not open it! I shall crack open the
bolts with my Flail of Tears and sunder the iron with my Scourge of Despair. I shall release all the dead from city of Erkalla, and they shall climb up the stairs of the earth. I shall raise up the dead, and they shall eat the living: the dead shall outnumber the living!"

And the Gatekeeper appeared, and he opened the door, but he would not let Our Lady pass: "Mighty Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, you cannot enter Erkalla with your symbols of Power. Leave them with me, and then you may visit the King."

Our Lady of Pain saw the truth in his words, and at the gate of the city, she stripped off her talismans. She gave up the Flail of Tears, surrendered the Scourge of Despair. She unwrapped her Robe of Severed Hands, and
coiled up her Whip of Countless Afflictions. She unwrapped the spiked wire from her hair and plucked out the needles from her nails.

And at last Loviatar was finished, and the Gatekeeper escorted her into Cyric's dismal palace. And the King of the Dead saw Our Lady humbled, and in his throne room of glory, he heard her complaint. Cyric made his
voice heard like a gavel of thunder, and he spoke loudly his judgment, with the following words:

"I am Cyric, Lord of Erkalla, and I welcome you to my pale domain. You have no power here in my most ancient city: over the dead only I am King. I have heard your request and will honor it. When you leave, your sister
shall accompany you. But each winter she will come back and visit me, and I shall return her to your side in the summer."

Our Lady of Pain heard his pronouncement, and she left gladly with her sister beside her. Thus Loviatar ascended from the netherworld, resuming her just punishment of Man.
—"Loviatar's Descent into the Netherworld,"


Even the sister of Loviatar isn't specified as Kiputytto, some theorizing it's Ereshkigal. (With Loviatar taking on Inanna's role as Ereshkigal's sister, like she did to take Inanna's role in this story.)

I think it might be also a clue Loviatar (when she was a Demigoddess roaming the Realms) absorbed Inanna, or stole her portfolio during or after the Orcgate Wars, or her worshipers converted a number some of Inanna's worshipers. Inanna was also a Lawful Evil deity, and it's possible this is were Loviatar got the sexual aspects of her pain portfolio, while loosing her mythological connection to disease.

Then again, from the same book, we also have Kazerabet, born as Innana az-Khunjhati al-Hilmi, if much after Inanna's death, ie in mid–12th century DR.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kazerabet

She was born in Hilm, Zakhara, but as we explored, there is a connection between Unther (And Mulhorand) and Zakhara, via early Mulan.

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Oct 2019 18:20:29
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2019 :  22:36:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
regarding what you just described (Loviatar taking over portfolios from Inanna), I would say that's a very likely truth. I would say that the being that became Ishtar took only the goodly side considering how she's described. Ishtar then later gave her power to Isis.

However, I never saw THAT link of Kazerabet to the name Inanna..... man, I really need to look at that Zakhara stuff again now that I've studied a little more. She comes to Ysawis, "city of the dead", and becomes its queen. This is ripe for some "gods reborn in human form" theories.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2019 :  15:47:46  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's also curious Kazerabet, despite being a Neceomancer, also is specifically described as having a fondness for summoning baatezu to her aid.

This is interesting, as Inanna had her realm in Baator...


Edited by - Baltas on 23 Oct 2019 15:49:57
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2019 :  22:43:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, even if we just go with the idea that people got in the habit of naming their children after gods (even dead gods), there's way too many coincidences of names from the Sumerian / Babylonian Pantheons appearing down in Zakhara via either the supplements or the complete book of necromancers. To my knowledge, we don't have any definitive canon lore of Mulan people's going to Zakhara, but I have a strong feeling that there was another tribe besides the Mulhorandi and Untheric peoples.

Ironically, there are a large number of powerful people in realmslore who are named after these deities, making one think that perhaps they are "god-kings"/incarnations. By that, I note this Inanna, there was also a "lamia noble" beneath Unther named Ereshkigal, there was a genasi named Ningal in Unther, and then of course Gilgeam coming back and the return of nanna-sin. This does kind of fit with the "story" we're seeing in the sword coast adventurer's guide... for what it says is happening in Mulhorand... but its actually the Sumerian/Babylonian names that you see appearing more in "mortals who are powerful and influential". Again though, a simplistic explanation of that could simply be that people liked naming children after the gods (look at Jesus being used as a common Mexican name, and how many "common" names in English are influential names in the bible).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2020 :  20:37:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well my brain appears to be unable to focus on anything for any length of time at the moment so its back to the old empires.

I'm going over my notes (and finding a whole host of new ones, like the info about Solon in the 3e Dragon Magic sourcebook).



I have a few things bothering me about Rauring.

1 - Why are the LeShay involved in Imaskar.
2 - Why are there so many genies in Raurin.


Now for 1. I know there is an entry in GHoTR about an Imaskar tower in Sarifal, and there is mention in the novel Darkvision about LeShay being the reason for the creation of the Imaskarcana, but is there anything else other than that, and which one came first (did GHoTR make the link first or was it the novel).

I just dont see the LeShay, a nature loving race of isolationists, giving anything to an evil enslaving magic hungry dominating empire.




For 2. the Desert of Desolation module has a efreet and a djinn as the main antagonist and a supporting protagonist. There is an efreet ruler in Deep Raurin, there are djinn and efreet and dao listed as being random encounters in the desert (the Horde book).

Did the Imaskari discover the genie as a form of end magic transformation (much like the netherese transformed into dragons and the miyeritar transformed into sharn). Or were elemental lords heavily involved in manipulating and influencing Imaskari society and so sent many genies to reinforce that relationship.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  00:42:59  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Well my brain appears to be unable to focus on anything for any length of time at the moment so its back to the old empires.

I'm going over my notes (and finding a whole host of new ones, like the info about Solon in the 3e Dragon Magic sourcebook).



I have a few things bothering me about Rauring.

1 - Why are the LeShay involved in Imaskar.
2 - Why are there so many genies in Raurin.


Now for 1. I know there is an entry in GHoTR about an Imaskar tower in Sarifal, and there is mention in the novel Darkvision about LeShay being the reason for the creation of the Imaskarcana, but is there anything else other than that, and which one came first (did GHoTR make the link first or was it the novel).

I just dont see the LeShay, a nature loving race of isolationists, giving anything to an evil enslaving magic hungry dominating empire.





Didn't the Imaskari learn their dimensional magic from the fey? I cannot assume directly, let alone with consent. Perhaps the Imaskari picked up (looted) a few artifacts or studied a crossroads. I could definitely see the LeShay taking an interest in Imaskari work, if only to evaluate the potential threat posed. Considering the planar barrier the Imaskari raised against the Mulan pantheons, the LeShay would have very good reason to monitor the situation.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  02:50:57  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because the 4E WotC team was hellbent on shoehorning into the Realms all of the stuff that they had created to make the new edition unique - specifically the "Feywild" and the "Far Realm".

They weren't orphans in that regard. The changeover to the 3E Realms had some similar changes (and some of them we managed to massage into the lore, others we weren't given the chance ...) but not to the extent of 4E.

But I'm sure some will tell you different. A recent Twitter exchange showed me that.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 10 Apr 2020 02:51:50
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  08:31:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it's a 4e shoehorn the I feel no guilt in undoing it.

Leshay and imaskar don't mesh well at all and the portal stuff was batrachi in origin so I'll stick with that.

Maybe I can confuse genie and leshay, everyone imagines genies as big, slightly overweight, Persian dressed aloof individuals, but what if they were slight, with angular features and pointy ears, that would look very Fey, especially with blue tinged or red tinged skin.

Khalitharius the efreet in desert of desolation could even be changed to Khalesharius and shortened to LeShar. He seems to be the leader of one faction of genies, perhaps the genies were manipulating imaskar culture during the later epochs. Perhaps jergal used the genies as his intermediaries to make the imaskarcana (leshay would not transform natural serpent scales into a key or a book or other ugly manufactured item).


So what was the lesson learnt George, is it a realms shattering revelation.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  16:26:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, to be fair there are and were mysterious Fey and Elven beings active near the historical Imaskari Empire - like Maraloi - who some theorized as possibly connected to LeShay - seeing like LeShay they were more "fey" than other elves, being weak to iron, resembling them physically (ie also being very fair and white haired), and commanding powerful "alien" magic:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maraloi

There as well the half-even Maviddi (related to Maraloi?) of the Katakoro Plateau, and the Gold Elves of Narbeth (located in the Shalhoond/the Great Wild Wood) (the last being the creation of Ed):
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tsaparang_Fortress
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Narbeth

Edited by - Baltas on 10 Apr 2020 17:12:54
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  17:13:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
huh, never heard of narbeth or the maroloi.

The quotes i've seen say that the fey helped make the imaskarcana which is a terrible idea ( i much prefer and will be using George's idea that Jergal brought the golden skins of the world serpent to Imaskar and helped them reforge them into the imaskarcana).

It makes sense for the Raurin basin to once have been covered with forest, like the rest of Faerun. But these forests were probably destroyed during the Crown Wars and Narbeth is the only remnant of a much larger gold elf nation that the Ilythiiri burned.

Good stuff though for me to add into my old empires, cheers for the pointer.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  17:29:57  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No problem.

I also wondered if maybe Nabreth, Maraloi and Maviddi were remnants of a pre-Crown Wars Gold Elven Kingdom - with Maraloi fleeing north, and remaining/becoming again more Fey, and Maviddi being the survivors that mixed with the human population.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  18:14:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The katakoro plateau is a long way off, and while the imaskar ended up on both sides of the yehimals, they did so by owning all the lands around it.

For the elves to end up on both sides I'm assuming they would likely have to occupy lands all around the northern edge of the yehimals, which would mean the hordelands were once forested and that forest vanished in an event outside of the burnings of the crown wars.

Not that its inconceivable for such an event to occur, it could have been a climatic change over 10000 years, or a sudden change like dragon fire. Might be interesting to find out, but is beyond the scope of my old empire rewrite.

I think I will have jergal manipulate the imaskar into creating the imaskarcana by placing the scrolls in elven ruins in Raurin or Murghom (which Imaskar once owned). Then the Imaskari can have used the scrolls to vastly accelerate their magical prowess and that included exploring other plains. Then they come to the attention of elemental lords and a number of genies end up serving the imaskari and helping them reforge the scrolls into other items (what else, short of wish level magic could reshape an artefact).

Everything else reported about the imaskari is just scholarly misinterpretation. The tower in the moonshae isles was not part of an alliance between imaskar and the leshay, it was a single artificer that set up shop far away to get hold of some exotic reagents.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  19:05:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps I can paint the imaskari like magical locusts.

The netherese found the nether scrolls and then did the rest themselves.

But the imaskari, there are batrachi runes on the gates they used to abduct the mulan. There are sarrukh baetith ruins in thay and the imaskari ruled that region for a time. They supposedly were allied with the Fey (although I'll be repurposing that because it's just a bad idea). Then theres the spellweaver ruins around fuirgar.

So they hoover up all the magical lore they can find and try using it, this is how they create extra dimensional spaces a few centuries after learning magic (that'll be spellweaver magic). That's probably how they managed to open a portal to the abyss or baator and summon an enormous fiend krakentua into their capital city (I'll be changing that to zargon to line up with the elder Evils book).

Finding the nether scrolls Is just another step into stealing the magical lore of other races and repurposing it for themselves, but this one catapults their magical power exponentially.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  13:15:35  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking to flesh out pre imaskari history in Raurin.

I figure it was forested land like almost everywhere else. The Orcgate had batrachi runes on and was the same gate used by the Imaskari to steal the Mulan people.

So Raurin must have been a hot and humid jungle way back in the past

We know what ends the batrachi empires (the tearfall)


Next up are the giants (there are giants in the Giants Belt and in the desert). I dont think Raurin was part of Ostoria, but when Ostoria fell in -25000 DR, i reckon a number of giants fled south and east ahead of the expanding Great Glacier. They arrive in the forested land of Raurin and rule uncontested for many millennia.

Unsure of a name for the giant nation but i think Fuirgar is the Mulhorandi name and Fuirgar doesnt really fit the giantish language for their other nations (Ruanaroch, Nedeheim, Ostoria, Grunfesting).

Now either proliferating landwyrms end the giant empire, or the migration of the dwarves from the yehimals ends the giant empire (or both). some time between -16000 and -15000 DR.

Then gold elves from Orishaar fleeing the War of Three leaves end up in Raurin around -15000 DR (i realise Orishaar is stated as moon elven, but usually that just refers to the ruling house or most dominate/numerous race).

I think i shall call the elven nation in Raurin Faerlorpiir, which could be easily corrupted over time to Aerilpaar (one of the few remaining remnants of that great forest, Shalhoond being the other remnant). Faerlorpiir means Place of Magical Treasure, in reference to the number of batrachi ruins and treasures.

Then the Ilythiiri burn down the forests in Raurin around -11000 DR. The humans in Durpar gradually expand north as the lands heal and so around -9000 DR the humans move into the plains of Raurin and Imaskar is born.


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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 11 Apr 2020 13:24:27
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  13:58:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


For 2. the Desert of Desolation module has a efreet and a djinn as the main antagonist and a supporting protagonist. There is an efreet ruler in Deep Raurin, there are djinn and efreet and dao listed as being random encounters in the desert (the Horde book).

Did the Imaskari discover the genie as a form of end magic transformation (much like the netherese transformed into dragons and the miyeritar transformed into sharn). Or were elemental lords heavily involved in manipulating and influencing Imaskari society and so sent many genies to reinforce that relationship.



For that matter, I have always pictured the Imaskari as less of wizards and more of pact makers. I can never find the reference anymore, but in 2e lore when they were introduced, I remember there being something about them having dealings with devils a lot as well (they were binding devils into things, including tying devils to items, etc...). Again, don't ask where I got that reference from, but I feel like it was in some horde adventure or something.

So, that makes me wonder if the Imaskari lack of reverence for gods was because they saw so many beings that were willing to trade power for service (and they in turn were binding beings into service with power). Why do I bring this up? The concept of the Sha'ir may have been common in Imaskar. Warlocks, binders, sha'irs, alienists … these things which we see as modern day fringes may have been relatively commonplace in Imaskari society. Well, what other types of warlocks are there? Fey warlocks... and there were the Leshay.

So, if they were making pacts, what were the Imaskari DOING in exchange for this power? Possibly they were taking slaves and giving them to these cultures (i.e. genies taking mortal slaves from sha'irs, devils take slaves as sacrifice, far realms entities using slaves as mortal hosts, and possibly fey using slaves as "transformation stock" in attempts to win a war between fey courts occurring on other planes.

Now, am I saying that the Imaskari lacked wizards entirely? By no means. I expect sorcerers may have been more common though, and that may have been due to some form of magical transformation. Rather than the typical idea of breeding with them though (making genasi, tieflings, aasimar, half-fey), the Imaskari may have looked into transformation magics to "steal" what makes someone have the powers of a creature. They may have learned it binding genies into lamps and devils into binding signs. Later they may have learned to bind said energies not into items, but rather themselves, somewhat like a lich's transformation ritual.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Apr 2020 14:08:09
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  14:17:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a good point

GHoTR details the moment the cult of demogorgon unleash the krakentua in Inupras. I will be changing that to be Zargon from Elder Evils.

The forming pacts with other creatures is definitely there in the early years. Perhaps it was phased out over time after they got hold of the golden skins of the world serpent (if you can obtain limitless magical power through quick study why bother making pacts with powerful beings).

Perhaps it is after the retaking of inupras that the elemental beings they once served become slaves themselves (genie lords on the elemental planes do not have a lamp, so someone has to have learned first how to bind then into objects).





I did a few checks and as far as George Krashos' article (Lord of the End of Everything) is concerned, the Imaskari get hold of the Golden Skins of the World Serpent sometime after -4370 DR.
That gives them plenty of time to learn the abundantly available spellcasting from the Nether Scrolls and advance to the point that they can challenge Zargon in Inupras and defeat him, and then turn the Nether Scrolls into the Imaskarcana with the help of newly enslaved genies that they used to serve in return for magical power.

I reckon the Imaskari used to help these genies, getting slaves and treasure for them, so that the genies could send it back to their elemental lords. The Imaskari probably also served demons, yugoloths, devils, etc. All of this was in return for whatever magical power they could obtain.

Once they had the Nether Scrolls they became the masters of these outer planar beings, and realised that the genies were the best slaves (devils will always try and take your soul, demons were uncontrollable). They probably learned to bind these genies into vessels like lamps.

Suddenly every artificer of any worth would aspire to have his own enslaved genie.



When Imaskar fell during the Battle of Whirling Sands, the Imaskaroloth was unleashed and that destroyed just about anything it touched. The genies were freed of their enslavement by the deaths of their masters, and they were freed from their lamps when the Imaskaroloth destroyed the lamps.

Now there are hundreds of genies in Raurin that are free roaming (bound to nothing and no one). They can of course return home to their elemental lord masters if they wish, but who would want that. So they remain as free genies.

A few of the most powerful genies achieved positions of note in history Khalitharius was the dominant personality within the Imaskaroloth as his "soul" was used to create it, kind of like how an elemental force is bound to animate a golem.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 11 Apr 2020 14:44:52
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  18:31:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The janni are what the imaskari transformed themselves into when they tried to become genies. Those artificers that survived the battle of whirling sands were being hunted by the mulan, so they transformed into genies (with the aid of their genie slaves who knew they would end up weaker and in service to the genie).

That's why janni have souls and can be resurrected and are bound to the material plane while other genies are not.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  02:19:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, given that the Imaskari spellcasters were known as "Artificers" may also be used to this end if one actually looks at a modern interpretation of that as a class. The Imaskari may have focused on the use of binding things to items and using items, much as how the "artificers" of Eberron have a focus on magic items... but possibly the Imaskari ones were even better at it. To note, one of the first things that the artificers of Eberron learn is working with extradimensional devices like a bag of holding.

Also, if all this were true, I'd definitely posit a link between ancient Imaskar and modern Zakhara of SOME sort.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  09:41:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always assumed there were historical connections between zakhara and calimshan and between zakhara and the likes of durpar, ulgarth, estagund, etc.

Imaskari I have originating from Durpar (based on a quote that had them coming from the south), so whatever link is with durpar may also extend to imaskar. I suspect it will have to wait until I work on zakhara before I find out what that link might be

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  14:40:03  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Working in the legend of the Wyrmbane Helm (from Dragon Magic) into the history of Raurin.

Its provided new information into the history of the Raurin flight of dragons.

Also noticed that the Kingdom of Solon once vied with Mulhorand for control of the Gbor Nor (Semphar and Murghom), this is from the Horde sourcebook.

I figure that seeing as Semphar and Murghom were likely of Imaskari descent and Solon was of Imaskari descent, then Semphar was probably a large kingdom encompassing the land east and west of the Howling Gap. Solon the city was built in the Raurin Alta which i think has large metal deposits of iron (the Goldenflow is poison to fey).

Mulhorand arrives around -1480 DR and conquers Murghom first, then Semphar, pushing Solon back through the Howling Gap.

Solon is unable to retake those lands because around -1300 DR the blue dragon suzerain Maladraedior is deposed by Sturykkazynarr, who spends the next few centuries plaguing the southern lands of Solon and Bakar in Raurin.

Then in -698 DR, Tiphera Yseldre slays one of Sturykkazynarr's children which results in a decade of sustained dragon assaults against Solon.

Ultimately Tiphera and Sturykkazynarr kill each other and the dragon Erskaznarr becomes Suzerain, he kills the King of Solon (who arranged the death of Tiphera by Sturykkazynarr).

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 13 Apr 2020 :  19:47:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So i came across something in the Magic of Incarnum called the Wellspring that is meant to be placed in the middle of the Raurin Desert.

Its supposed to be a conduit for souls into and out of the Material Plane and it prevents soul magic from being used in the world until it is destroyed.

My initial reaction was to discard it, i couldnt imagine why anyone would create such an artefact, nor what purpose it would serve in Toril.

Then i thought about the Imaskari Planar Barrier. I've never considered it to be a planet wide effect (there are numerous indications of planar travel occuring elsewhere in the realms and gods ascending during the time period of Netheril). Nor do i consider it a barrier to the gods (a highly impractical device that didnt work anyway.

So what could the Imaskari Planar Barrier be, i figure it must have been a massive and persistent dimensional anchor to prevent people teleporting or plane shifting or otherwise performing magical transportation into Imaskar (now that is a protection worth having). The Imaskari get around this using gates and portals keyed to the barrier so that it can pierce it.

The problem with a dimensional anchor is it prevents all planar travel within the area of effect, which means that anyone who dies within the area of the anchor cannot have their soul pass into the ethereal plane and then onto the outer plane (instead it would become an undead).

So to deal with the problems created by the Imaskari Planar Barrier, what if the Imaskari created a dedicated portal for souls - the Wellspring. All souls are attracted to the Wellspring and pass harmlessly onto the Ethereal Plane, but as a result incarnum magic is not possible within the borders of Imaskar.



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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Apr 2020 :  21:04:04  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Come across two items of note.

The first is from the Elder Serpents of Set article from Dragon 313. It is about a secret society of intelligent snakes that is spread all across Faerun and worships Set.

One of those snakes is the second in command of the organisation (whose leader lives in Najara) who roams the deserts of Raurin.

Now i have a number of questions, how did the snake get from Najara to Raurin. How does Sets worship get from Mulhorand to Najara and back to Raurin.

I've got a few ideas that actually build upon my mad idea that Sseth was actually the godking Set who discovered a portal network long ago and went to Chult.





The other odd item is from polyhedron and the everwinking eye series that mentions velsharoon seeking demigodhood and that he goes to the Raurin Deserts. What is in the Raurin Deserts that could elevate him to godhood (given the Imaskari supposed hatred of gods, although i've downplayed that element).

I'm thinking i could have him use the Wellspring to steal a massive amount of "experience", positive energy, souls, whatever you want to call it, to give him a huge boost in power level to rival that of Elminster.

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  11:26:32  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Velsharoon rumor also appears in FA1 - Hall of the High King, page 64. I don't remember if they are identical write-ups or if FA1 adds something.

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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  17:05:35  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good pointer there Eric.

So looking at Halls of the High King which has even more information there is a process that involves the creation of a potion that gives the imbiber the power of demigodhood.

This potion requires the blood of adventurers supposedly and was created by Talos and is located in the Plains of Purple Dust.




Now with my god hating ideology i can't include this as is. Talos has no connection to Imaskar so it means the potion had to be placed in the Plains of Purple Dust. How does a metaphysical being go about creating a potion recipe to allow godhood and if such a thing were possible why arent there hundreds of demigods around (he can't be the only god that knows how to create such a potion).

Instead i shall mix it up a bit using stray pieces of lore from elsewhere.

The Great Elixir was supposedly created in Imaskar or Netheril, for this case i shall choose Imaskar. Now there is a process whereby you can consume other lesser elixirs and then purge them in order to improve your chances of getting a beneficial result on the Great Elixir. Also there are a number of recipes for this Great Elixir that have proven to be deadly.

So i reckon the likes of Elminster and Khelben have spread about this rumour of the potion to grant demigodhood saying it was created by Talos to allow him to use up their power instead of his own. That would attract just the right kind of power hungry lunatics that are either happy to become Talos' stooge or are arrogant enough to believe they can outwit a god. Either way they are dangerous and should be eliminated.

The process itself either proves deadly or completely removes all magical abilities.

Velsharoon tried this process for himself and survived.

I did note however that in one of the god books Velsharoon possesses the Skull Staff of the Necromancer which was said to be crafted by the greatest of Imaskari artificers (not sure who that could be).

So i'm imagining Velsharoon fell for the trick, nearly died (but not quite). Then he found all manner of other goodies in Imaskar (including the Skull Staff) and so achieved the power of a demigod via another means.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 16 Apr 2020 :  14:45:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Had a quick glance at shadow stone the novel, specifically regarding madryoch.

In his monologues, Madryoch hints that he is over 4000 years old and he says many times that he was among the first sorcerers.

Now at face value that statement doesnt work. Imaskar existed 10000 years ago and had magic users since the beginning, but around the time madryoch was born is also around the time the imaskari recovered the golden skins of the world serpent from jergal.

So madryoch was seemingly one of the first to learn to use the weave in imaskar. His claim to be "first" could also mean that he was the best. Therefore he could be a candidate for the crafter of the skull staff that velsharoon possesses.

And back to Velsharoon. He is listed as lord of the forgotten tomb and lord of the forsaken tomb. The forgotten tomb is in skull gorge and was a former netherese enclave . The forsaken tomb could be imaskari

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 16 Apr 2020 :  20:50:35  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not unexpectedly the Plains of Purple Dust are home to Purple Worms.

However, as far as i'm aware Purple Worms are native to the Underdark and dont normally frequent the surface. Even stranger these Purple Worms grow in size the further inwards one travels in the Plains of Purple Dust.

There are no mentions of Purple Worms anywhere outside of the Plains of Purple Dust so how did they get here, and what keeps them here.





While reading up on Purple Worms i found an entry for Thunderherder Worms which infest deserts and are much smaller (5 ft wide and 10 ft long) and travel in groups of up to 100. I imagined a Tremors moment but with multiple worms rather than one big one. If these are present in the Dust Desert and the Desert of Desolation then it might explain where the Purple Worms came from (a few Thunderherders moved into the Plains of Purple Dust and were mutated by the magic). But where do the Thunderherder Worms come from.


Anyway, ultimately i settled upon the idea that Imaskar was once infested with landwyrms (initially they were the forest variety, but the forests got burned). These are the same landwyrms that destroyed Aerilpar. I figure that if left unchecked they can grow out of control like an apex predator with a high birth rate and no natural competition.

So what if these landwyrms evolved into Thunderherders and then into the Purple Worm variants. The Thunderherders are isolated in Raurin by the environment (they now live in sand, and the mountains around the basin stop them leaving). The Purple Worms are isolated in the Plains of Purple Dust by their need for magic that saturates the area, and they eat the Thunderherders that try to venture out of Raurin to the north or east (through the Plains of Purple Dust).

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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11686 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2020 :  21:39:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison



The other odd item is from polyhedron and the everwinking eye series that mentions velsharoon seeking demigodhood and that he goes to the Raurin Deserts. What is in the Raurin Deserts that could elevate him to godhood (given the Imaskari supposed hatred of gods, although i've downplayed that element).





Here's some non-canon timeline stuff I came up with for Velsharoon that could explain his travels into the Raurin desert. Basically canon is that Myrkul is possibly a "former prince of Murghom".
I pulled it from this thread and I go more into some concepts for Mellifleur there.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22392

1326 DR - The exiled Halruaan, Velsharoon the Vaunted, begins research on the rise of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. It is rumored that he visits Ironfang Keep and survives.

1345 - 1354 DR - The dread necromancer, Velsharoon the Vaunted, builds a tower, which he names the Tower Terrible, in the city of Soorenar in Chessenta. He then spends several years visiting Murghom and the Plains of Purple Dust seeking lore on the mortal life of Myrkul.

1358 DR - Time of Troubles - Using knowledge gained from the vestige of Karsus to gain better control over his arcane powers, the renegade red wizard, Velsharoon the Vaunted hunts down the avatar of Mellifleur inhabiting the body of a half-fiend lich rumored to be one of several grandchildren of the line of Garthelaun Darakh "the Goreslayer", fourth ruler of the Darakh Dynasty of ancient Narfell. Mellifleur is forced into his phylactery, and when the gods reascend, Ao does not allow Mellifleur's entrapped intellect to return to godhood for failing to properly serve his portfolios.

1359 DR - Intrigued by the machinations of his former ally and fellow renegade red wizard, Zhengyi the Witch-King of Vaasa, Velsharoon begins following the actions of Gareth Dragonsbane and company as they steal the wand of Orcus, slay an avatar of Tiamat, and soak the wand in its blood. Unbeknownst to Gareth and company, Velsharoon transports in and gathers a portion of the blood and bile of the dead avatar which have been infused with a remnant of the power of the wand of Orcus.

1364 DR - red wizards of the enclave of Soorenar, under the orders of Szass Tam, invade the home of the renegade red wizard, Velsharoon the Vaunted. This meets with disastrous results. The survivors, upon threat of utter annihilation, declare peace with the renegade red wizard and Velsharoon rewards them for their bravery by providing them several rituals involving undead creation. He however advises that the red wizards must not share these rituals with their cohorts in Thay "who have not dared enough in the field of necromancy". The red wizards request the protection of Zulkir Lauzoril against the wrath of Szass Tam. Lauzoril and the other Zulkirs chastise Tam for threatening the security of their enclave over a matter that he should have handled himself.

1366 DR - Velsharoon the Vaunted enters the Dire Wood of the High Forest. Although challenged by the arcanist Wulgreth and other magical obstacles, Velsharoon obtains a bottle of the pure heart's blood pumping from the Karsestone.

1368 DR - The renegade red wizard and Halruaan exile, Velsharoon the Vaunted, assaults an ancient ruin on Narfell's northern border, rumored to be named Jiksidur, possibly seeking ancient lore used by Larloch in his own lich creation ritual. Velsharoon slays a gold dragon and its cloud giant guardians. It is rumored that he butchered the dragon on the spot, taking its stone-filled gizzard and brewing it in a cauldron containing blood of the Karsestone, the mixed blood and bile of the avatar of Tiamat, and the bone powder of the former avatar of Mellifleur.
Several weeks later, using the Phylactery of Mellifleur and the Skull Staff of the Necromancer, Velsharoon performs a ritual to transfer the “spirit” of the god Mellifleur from the Phylactery of Mellifleur and into the vestige phylactery that is part of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer. The next day, Mellifleur's consciousness was sent to “the place where vestiges go”. Mellifleur then made a pact with the vestige of Karsus and transferred it into the vestige phylactery that is part of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer, and then establishes telepathic rapport with Karsus via the staff. Using the now cleansed Phylactery of Mellifleur as a focal point, in a modified Ritual of Endless Night, Velsharoon ascends to godhood with the sponsorship of the deity Talos. The red wizards of Soorenar are some of the first converts, and many former priests of Myrkul in Thay flock to the city in order to turn the land surrounding the Tower Terrible into a temple complex.


Here is my take on the Skull Staff of the Necromancer under 3.5 ruleset

Artifact: Skull Staff of the necromancer (Imaskari artifact) - Powers of Skull Staff:
Spells: command undead at will, gentle repose at will, animate dead 3/day, create undead 2/day, control undead 2/day, finger of death 2/day
+1 quarterstaff, unholy, vile, souldrinker, ghost touch, sure striking <note +5 with greater magic weapon)
increases the number of hit dice of undead controllable by caster to 10 HD per caster level

The Skull Staff of the necromancer also functions as a Vestige Phylactery (see Tome of Magic) and a Soul Lens (see Tome of Magic)

The Skull Staff of the necromancer provides a +4 bonus to binding checks to bind a vestige (this bonus becomes +6 if binding Balam)

(Int 19 Wis 10 Char 19 AL NE Ego 31 Communication: speech, telepathy Senses: 120 ft darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
Languages: Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Draconic, Aragrakh (Old High Wyrm), Imaskari, Roushoum, Mulhorandi, Untheric and reads magic
Lesser powers: detect magic (at will), Staff has 10 ranks in Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (history:Imaskar),and Knowledge (the planes)
Greater powers: magic circle against good at will, fear 3/day
Special Purpose: Defeat/slay divine spellcasters Special Purpose Power: wielder gets +2 profane bonus on saves

The Skull Staff of the Necromancer is a powerful Imaskari artifact wielded by several Lord Artificers before the fall of Imaskar. It was constructed by a powerful anima mage named Murghos who very commonly bound the vestige known as Balam to himself. As a result, Murghos was influenced over time by Balam to hate the servants of the gods (even moreso than the norm for an Imaskari). Murghos created the Staff of the Necromancer as a tool with which to strike at his hated enemies. Over time, Murghos transformed himself into a lich, using the staff as his phylactery. After a few centuries more, Murghos felt his hold on this plane loosening and Murghos began the ritual to invest himself with even greater power as a demi-lich. However, something went wrong with the ritual sacrifice (some believe that the vestige of Balam that was in the staff's phylactery at the time had something to do with this) and Murghos' soul was wrenched into the place where Vestiges reside and the demi-lich's skull became fused to the staff (thus its new name of "The Skull Staff of Necromancers") . However, a small portion of Murghos' own sentience remained trapped in the staff, endowing it with even greater magical power and turning it into an artifact.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 17 Apr 2020 :  08:41:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have been thinking about murghom (and byproxy myrkul), its tricky though because there is almost no lore on murghom.

What we know is murghom is ruled by mulhorand, albeit lightly, it has a regional governor like the rest of mulhorands regions.

We also know that murghom has been controlled off and on since -1500 dr or thereabouts. While it is not unheard of for a controlling nation to allow its vassal to keep a royal family, they would almost certainly do away with it after the first rebellion.

I'm thinking that murghom was an imaskari successor state after the fall of imaskar. Then its larger and more aggressive neighbour (solon) tried to conquer it and so mulhorand moved to protect its borders. So around -1480 DR murghom became part of mulhorand.

If murghom was an imaskari successor state then it was almost certainly ruled by an artificer or artificers (of lesser power than those in inupras, but still potent). Mulhorand does not like imaskari and so it is almost certain they slaughtered the entire ruling stock.

So that means either myrkul Bey al kursi was one of those lesser artificers and escaped. Or his family rose to power during the first rebellion of murghom (and were removed when it was reconquered).

I'm not sure which one I'm going for at the moment but the tomb of badr al mosq in the raurin desert implies that the imaskari use al to mean of so myrkul Bey al kursi is using that imaskari nomenclature and may be one of the artificers.


I like the idea of murghos being the head artificer of murghom, but I shall have to check the GHoTR map to see if murghom is named on that map.



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