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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2018 : 17:39:01
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Sure, a sorcerer specialized in combat can be the equal of any combat wizard, but that same sorcerer is buggered the next day when he needs to be a utility caster the next day while the wizard can just prepare his next day's spells cheerfully.
I'm a little confused by this... How would someone who could pick any spell he knew, at any time, be at a disadvantage when he needs a particular type of spell?
Sure, wizards can prepare more spells, and a properly-prepared wizard will always dominate a sorcerer in the same situation, the sorcerer's strength is their versatility -- the lack of a need for specific preparations.
So this theoretical "the next day" scenario only favors the wizard if he needs a larger number of utility spells. A sorcerer would not be buggered, because regardless of preparations or the prior day's events, he can still use any utility spells he knows. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 17:51:47
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| Meh, if I needed a given utility spell that I did not use regularly (i.e. Knock, etc.) I bought a wand or scroll. And my sorcerer did not only prepare "blasting" spells, only picked the best ones for each levels, filled out the rest with crowd control or defense (Stoneskin, for example), and basically was almost as prepared for any situation as a wizard could be IMO. Fighters? Archers? Easy. Defensive spells/ crowd control. Casters? Improved + Reactive counterspelling. Don't even get me started on the Archmage PRC... |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 18:12:54
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My gun mage was a sorcerer... Assuming he had time before battle, he'd cast fly and improved invisibility on himself before combat, and cat's grace and mage armor if time permitted.
In combat, he'd cast a spell and/or shoot his pistol, then fly over to a new spot, and repeat the process.
He went from routinely getting stomped on during combat (at lower levels) to going several levels without getting hit at all.
Those spells gave my guy a huge advantage in combat.
And as I've said before, there is something delightful about putting a vampiric touch spell into a bullet and then shooting someone with it. I didn't do that oft, once he stopped getting hit in combat, but I loved it every time I had a reason to do it.  |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 18:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Ok so this debate has me wondering how to make the sorcerer more viable? Has anyone created a 'new' sorcerer class? I mean, rather than come up with a good build within the rules, has anyone actually retooled the class to make it stronger so as to compete with the wizard class?
Or build the free casting class after Channeller from AD&D 2+ (PO:S&M).
It's Con & Wis based (which makes more sense than "cuteness is magic" thing).
Spells consume spell-points (which recover fairly easily) and inflict fatigue (which stacks with itself and normal fatigue/encumbrance). Can learn and cast spells above "major caster" level limit, but this costs more fatigue: +1 level Severe fatigue (has problems with walking straight), +2 levels Mortal fatigue (collapses and save-or-die), on the upside 1-2 levels below common maximum is moderate/light fatigue, with minimal penalties and recovered in a few rounds. Fatigue is removed with rest and saving throws, but they come less often if heavily fatigued, thus tbis allows more spells, but not as often.
Also, there was another approach to free casting in d20 Thieves' World (Green Ronin version).
Magic use is split to "spell casting" (fast, but more limited and prone to failure in low mana conditions) and ritual casting (slow, but potentially much more powerful, just not for combat). Different classes have different skills at either: primary casters are Priest (leans more toward ritual), Mage (more toward spellcasting) and Witch (in between); secondary are Godsworn (ritual only, priest spells) and Initiate (spellcasting only, mage and witch spells). Weirder traditions are done via prestige classes. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 18:56:29
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I wonder how people here at Candlekeep feel about warlocks (from Complete Arcane, if I'm not mistaken). I understand general consensus regarding the class is a large resounding "meh" on most forums, as people tend to not enjoy playing one-trick ponies, especially when their one trick - Eldritch Blast - doesn't scale quite well.
I'm of course talking about 3.5 warlocks, as the 5e warlock actually has surprisingly good damage output with Eldritch Blasts.
Edit: I'm sure there are threads about this somewhere already, but I'm typing this at work and feeling a bit lazy ATM. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
Edited by - Balmar Foghaven on 03 May 2018 18:58:00 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 18:58:22
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Being able to recast a debuff or damage spell that didn't have much effect due to succesfull saves is one thing I love about sorcerers in D&D combat. A wizards selected spells need to stick, and usually debuffs have only one chance to work. Fail and the wizard needs to reasses his strategy. Fail and the sorcerer casts the threat anew.
On a battlefield a war-sorcerer has a tactical advantage over a war wizard (i.e. he has the means to defeat his foes in the moment), but a good war wizard has the strategic edge (i.e. more easily discovers the way how to the defeat the foe).
Edit: To answer Balmar:
Never seen a warlock in play, but seen some theory crafted glaivelocks (Melee debuffing warlock with quickened Eldritch Glaive invocation) I might have wanted to give a try.
I loved Erik de Bie's depiction of a deviously powerful hellfire warlock in Depths of Madness, who loved to tease the wizard that his very strong hellfire would outlast his attempts at arcane blasting. Hellfire for daaaaaaayyyyyyyyss. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 03 May 2018 19:17:11 |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 19:02:33
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| I mentioned the Archmage PrC earlier, and though it does indeed also apply to wizards - probably more often, in fact - there is just something about having the ability to change the elemental damage type of your 6 fireballs/day on the fly... |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2018 : 04:30:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Sure, a sorcerer specialized in combat can be the equal of any combat wizard, but that same sorcerer is buggered the next day when he needs to be a utility caster the next day while the wizard can just prepare his next day's spells cheerfully.
I'm a little confused by this... How would someone who could pick any spell he knew, at any time, be at a disadvantage when he needs a particular type of spell?
Sure, wizards can prepare more spells, and a properly-prepared wizard will always dominate a sorcerer in the same situation, the sorcerer's strength is their versatility -- the lack of a need for specific preparations.
So this theoretical "the next day" scenario only favors the wizard if he needs a larger number of utility spells. A sorcerer would not be buggered, because regardless of preparations or the prior day's events, he can still use any utility spells he knows.
Assuming he knows any. Charisma affects his spells per day, not his spells known. A sorcerer with 50 Cha is still going to have the same three 9th level spells, a wizard with 50 Int can cast 7 different 9th level spells, 8 if specialized, 10 if Focused Specialist.
Yes, a sorcerer can cast more often, but he can't tailor his spell selection. If the party's going to raid the Elemental Plane of Fire, the wizard can just prepare orb of ice, wall of ice, cone of cold, shivering touch and so on. If the party's going to raid an archmage's laboratory, the wizard can stock up on assay SR, mord's disjunction, reaving dispel, greater dispel magic, no-save-no-SR spells and so on.
Feats like Uncanny Forethought also muddy the waters. Not to mention runestaves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2018 : 11:17:18
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That's setting up the scenario to favor the wizard, again, though: he knows exactly what to prepare for.
That's been my argument. If he knows what to prepare for, the wizard is better. If he's not properly prepared, though, it goes to the sorcerer. It remains purely situational. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2018 : 12:30:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's setting up the scenario to favor the wizard, again, though: he knows exactly what to prepare for.
That's been my argument. If he knows what to prepare for, the wizard is better. If he's not properly prepared, though, it goes to the sorcerer. It remains purely situational.
Not...really? I mean, the sorcerer's spells known are fixed. If there's a spontaneous attack of enraged fire elementals, or if a red dragon shows up, the sorcerer with fireball, scorching ray and meteor swarm is going to have problems unless he has a rod of searing spell.
EDIT: Uncanny Forethought also makes things worse for the poor sorcerer. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 05 May 2018 14:36:52 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2018 : 02:57:58
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Honestly I find Sorcerers more fun to play then Wizards, smoother experience.
Also edition plays a huge deal in this.
In 3x Sorcerer's advantage over Wizard was spontanious casting, and the Wizard's advantage over Sorcerers was getting free metamagic feats as they level.
In 5e it's the Sorcerer who gets metamagic and the Wizard has a spontaneous form of Vancian magic.
But the Sorcerer also has spell points, yet the Wizard has Ritual Casting (but the Sorcerer can get that with a feat and apply metamagic to those spells).
Also Sorcerer don't really feel like the same class as each other, a Conjurer, a Bladesinger, Evoker, Abjurer, Necromancer, Diviner, Warmage, Illusionist, Enchanter,Transmuted, all feel like Wizards, but with a twist and a focus.
But 5e Sorcerers doesn't even feel like the same species as each other, they don't feel connected to each other like Wizards do as a Discipline. Wizard is an occupation and discipline and a body of knowledge.
Sorcerers on the other hand are almost a change in species, instead of a job.
You have Shadow Sorcerers who feel like a mix of 3e inhuman Shadowcasters (Class) and 4e Shades (species).
Divine Souls feel almost more like clerics then Sorcerers and poach the best Sorcerer and Cleric Spells and who then laugh at 3e Mystic Theurges as amuetuers, they also get spectral wings at will. They will like Demigods.
Then you have the 10 flavours of Dragon Sorcerer, who grow scales, wings, speaks Draconic and can eventually use something akin to Dragon Awe.
Then there are Storm Sorcerers kings of weather magic, thunder/lightning spells, and wingless flying.
And last not least Wild Magic Sorcerers who use a whole page for a wild magic table alone.
So I have to give it to Sorcerers in 5e, but it's close. In some ways to harder to compair them in 5e then in 3e.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2018 : 21:32:43
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's setting up the scenario to favor the wizard, again, though: he knows exactly what to prepare for.
That's been my argument. If he knows what to prepare for, the wizard is better. If he's not properly prepared, though, it goes to the sorcerer. It remains purely situational.
Not...really? I mean, the sorcerer's spells known are fixed. If there's a spontaneous attack of enraged fire elementals, or if a red dragon shows up, the sorcerer with fireball, scorching ray and meteor swarm is going to have problems unless he has a rod of searing spell.
And the wizard who didn't prep anything to protect against fire isn't going to be any better off.
You keep arguing that the wizard is better overall, solely because he's properly prepared. That's tilting the scenario into the wizard's favor.
A wizard who isn't prepared is not going to do any better than a sorcerer. It all comes down to the situation. It's X vs. Y, all over again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2018 : 09:04:40
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Also, there's middle ground - memorizing casters without spellbook.
At least, Maztican artisans:
quote:
[...] Maztican magic-workers gain the use of
spells. These are awarded magically
and automatically. When cast, they
can be remastered through
meditation and contemplation. The
time to relearn a spell is one hour
per level of the spell, plus the
casting time (which, in many cases,
is significant).
- Maztica (TSR#1066)
Also, the dragons are another point in the middle: they can use the usual wizard magic without spellbook and with V component only.
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
I wonder how people here at Candlekeep feel about warlocks (from Complete Arcane, if I'm not mistaken).
quote:
I understand general consensus regarding the class is a large resounding "meh" on most forums, as people tend to not enjoy playing one-trick ponies, especially when their one trick - Eldritch Blast - doesn't scale quite well.
quote:
I'm of course talking about 3.5 warlocks, as the 5e warlock actually has surprisingly good damage output with Eldritch Blasts.
So the only problem is that it's not twinky enough? 
It was not used anywhere because it was obviously made for MUD style H&S, and the pretense it had something to do with RPG was tied to a very strange niche, so it just doesn't fit almost anywhere without stretched and obvious shoehorning.
So the real problem is "it's useless for anything except boring munchkinism, and it's not good for boring munchkinism".
The only thing that was going for it in the first place is that for some reason a few True Grognards start breathing heavily at seeing the word "eldritchshffft", and the opportunistic newbies seem to think using it makes them sound "smart" and "Tru" and "grognard-like" (remember 3.0 unpatching trying to rebuild from pre-AD&D2 materials?..)
If it wasn't made specifically for projectile vomiting damage points in the first place, it could be made into something that actually can be given to a character. At very least with elemental variants, etc.
Granted, versatility makes things easier to screw up, but one-trick "magic missile hurler" classes are downright stupid and deserve ridicule, and the classes like warlock are next door from them.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In 2e they had a good solid system for using spell points...it was good stuff actually.
Well... there was a spell point system in Netheril, there was one in Player’s Option: Spells & Magic (again, compatible with channellers), and several (including hybrids) in Great Wizard Netbook.
But which one was "good solid"?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 18 May 2018 09:08:04 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2018 : 12:28:24
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| I'm fairly sure that Unearthed Arcana had a spell point system. It's in the online SRD. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2018 : 05:51:51
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| Neither - the obvious answer is Illusionists |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2018 : 18:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
I wonder how people here at Candlekeep feel about warlocks (from Complete Arcane, if I'm not mistaken). I understand general consensus regarding the class is a large resounding "meh" on most forums, as people tend to not enjoy playing one-trick ponies, especially when their one trick - Eldritch Blast - doesn't scale quite well.
I'm of course talking about 3.5 warlocks, as the 5e warlock actually has surprisingly good damage output with Eldritch Blasts.
Edit: I'm sure there are threads about this somewhere already, but I'm typing this at work and feeling a bit lazy ATM.
I've seen a plenty of Warlocks from 3.5 and, on the whole, they're sorely under powered and their "at-will" continuous spells are fun but well below average level. We did a one-shot game where it was Gestalt (two classes mashed together) and I had a Warforged Warlock//Fighter (aka Iron Man) and I had fun until the character was destroyed, which wasn't long into the game.
The thing with Warlocks is that Eldritch Blast invocations aren't all that great or very specific in application and this is especially true at later stages of the game. We had a 16th level campaign and the DM threw a darned Balor against us. The Warlock hit it with EB after EB to which the demon just laughed as it's SR just deflected it completely.
The Warlock in later editions (4th and 5th) would get a much needed boost in terms of both flavor and mechanics. Tying the class to Pacts and then spawning arch-types (Hexblade being one) from the class was an awesome idea and really helped flesh out some different character concepts. Not to mention they made it a good damage dealer vs. whatever the focus was in 3E.
I'm sure I answered the OP's question up thread somewhere but having gained further knowledge of 3.5 I'd have to say hands down the Wizard is more Powerful. Here's a few reasons why:
• Versatility. Seriously the Wizard is un-matched in terms of capabilities for any situations. One might think that the Wizard would need some precognition of events to come to plan....but nope. A good wizard has, on hand, spells and items that make overcoming any situations easy. This comes in to play with two things: Feats (scribe scroll) and Items (preferably scrolls).
Lets look at a 2nd level Enchanter for 3.5 - they start with 4 cantrips and 2 spells per day + 1 enchantment spell. Most likely they're sporting an Intelligence of 15 (assuming point buy) for another 1st level spell. So it looks like this: 4/4 with DC 12 + spell level. At 2nd level they'll most likely have a few (4 or so) scrolls to add to their repertoire for a total of 8 1st level spells in any given day. That's pretty darn crazy and should be well equipped to take on multiple encounters - especially with AoE spells that can win the encounter with one casting.
As for other feats, one called Uncanny Forethought allows wizards to cast spells from their spellbook as a full-round action so long as they have an open spell slot of that level or higher. This is also in conjunction with Reserve Feats (minor spell-like abilities for general use) and other item creation feats.
• Power. Very few classes have the magical firepower of Arcane classes and while the Sorcerer and Wizard share the same list, a Wizard's extra feats that he can spend on Metamagic ones frees up character feats for things like Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, etc. Not to mention things like Contingency Spells. True, the Sorcerer can fire off more Lightning Bolts in a day but the Wizard probably isn't going to need to. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2018 : 19:06:49
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I agree that the wizard has more potential power, but to me, that's balanced by the fact that a wizard has to be prepared for the scenario. Sure, wizards can do that trick of casting spells directly from their spellbooks, but that's slower and requires them to deliberately leave slots open -- and even with the greater amount of available spells, I'm doubting most wizards would leave more than a handful of spell slots open.
So while sorcerers don't have all of the power of wizards, their on-the-spot versatility is a huge benefit.
That's why I maintain that neither is more powerful: all the feats and prepped spells in the world aren't going to do crap if they're useless in a particular scenario. Raw power can certainly carry the day if applied correctly, but always having the right spell handy is just as handy.
I can't speak on the topic of warlocks; the class has never appealed to me (the whole pact thing is not my gig). Ditto for any other flavors of arcane casters. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2018 : 21:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree that the wizard has more potential power, but to me, that's balanced by the fact that a wizard has to be prepared for the scenario. Sure, wizards can do that trick of casting spells directly from their spellbooks, but that's slower and requires them to deliberately leave slots open -- and even with the greater amount of available spells, I'm doubting most wizards would leave more than a handful of spell slots open.
So while sorcerers don't have all of the power of wizards, their on-the-spot versatility is a huge benefit.
That's why I maintain that neither is more powerful: all the feats and prepped spells in the world aren't going to do crap if they're useless in a particular scenario. Raw power can certainly carry the day if applied correctly, but always having the right spell handy is just as handy.
If we're judging the two classes based on just the options provided in the Player's Handbook, then I completely agree with you. Wizard's requirement to be prepared vs. the sorcerers greater spells/day but less variety is a good balance point.
If we're expanding it to all official options from 3.5, then the Wizard pulls away as certain feats make it less likely the Wizard needs to rely on recon and the selection of "correct" spells for the day. And think of it, a Wizard with Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) he can keep a number of spell slots open equal to his Intelligence modifier and cast any spell he has memorized via Spell Mastery as a Standard Action OR any spell in his entire book as a Full-Round action. That's pretty potent. Add in Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) he gets another open slot he can cast whatever he wants (standard action) that he knows. So for a 10th level Wizard with an Int 22 (+6) he can keep 7 slots open from 1st through 5th. Talk about Utility Belt!!
Honestly, this is one of the reasons why I still prefer 4th Edition. Both the Wizard and Sorcerer are mechanically different and strive for different concepts yet are both equal and have a good reason for both being in the same party.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't speak on the topic of warlocks; the class has never appealed to me (the whole pact thing is not my gig). Ditto for any other flavors of arcane casters.
I hear ya, the 3.5 Warlock is very....meh...to me in terms of flavor and mechanics. I actually prefer the Dragonfire Adept more, which is just a Dragon-flavored Warlock with a cool Breath Weapon effect instead of Eldritch Blast. |
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe
204 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 01:21:01
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Wizard, Sorcerers are more likely to have only utility or lesser spells vs the right spell for the right occasion. Wizards have Wands, Rods and Staves for utility and Scrolls. A Sorcerer with a wand of one of their spells is now even more redundant. Plus Wizards are able to make new spells one off or rare spells. A Sorcerer just can't do that.
Add in Spell Tattoo's and your Wizard is laughing. |
Thay Red |
Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 14 Jun 2018 01:22:38 |
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Wizards vs Sorcerers
