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Gelcur
Learned Scribe

326 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  06:13:27  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So a lot of things have been brought up in this thread. I could not resist posting on a topic with "Breast" in the title. I will try to keep the original topic.

Let me begin by stating though I have breasts they are not of the female variety. What I do have experience with is two decades of dressing and undressing ladies for Renfaires who have ranged from A cup to DD. Corsets and bodices, even un-boned, provide an amazing amount of support but even more compression and retention. They are uncomfortable and take a lot of getting used to and can reduce mobility. This is very similar to armor. Like armor enough training/experience and proper fitting works wonders. I've known a couple of women who wished they could wear their bodice/corset as daily wear because of the superior support these articles of clothing provided. Though I never witnessed any of them fight, at least not with weaponry, I did have the pleasure of seeing them dance, run, do somersaults and other acts of exertion. Most of these outfits left little room for jiggle or bounce, the breasts were confined such that they often looked unnatural, nothing like today's cupped lifting bras. Any lift that occurs is done by hand before the binding to keep them in place. No magic and affordable easily by most adventurers.

Though many female athletes have more slender builds. I think it really depends on the sport, female tennis players and gymnasts tend to be more full figured than runners. Depending on what sport you look at men also range in builds as well. I will say an athletic occupation like exotic dancing often has large busted women doing very gymnastic maneuvers either completely nude or topless for hours on end. Though some of these women obviously have artificial breasts, many are just young enough where the breast tissue does not need the support. If characters were somehow magically young like many D&D characters, I imagine they could benefit similarly.

As far as fantasy art, writing and gaming goes I will say I always take everything with a grain of salt. The unreliable narrator, or the creative artist, adding their flares to make something a bit more epic or cater to their viewer/reader is common and to be expected throughout history. And then there is food, personally in my campaigns even low level adventurers are very very rarely without an abundance of food. Hell some of them bring whole mess kits with them for preparing meals on the go. I think the average soldier might experience some hardship and weightloss from rations and overwork but my adventures all tend to find the spare coin to be gluttons, no matter what the level.

If you are interested in more Realms specific material check out Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue pages 90-93, they have undergarment options ranging from as cheap as 2, 5 and 6 gp, for leather Bustenhalts, Corsets and Broadbelts.

I will say as a DM, try not to overthink things. Give them a +2 to Charisma and a -2 Balance and get back to having fun.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1589 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  07:23:40  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Unless those spells involve transgressing against the rules set by the faith, I don't see why Selune would care. She's got better things to do than police her worshippers' spell choices for the day unless they're praying for animate dead or ravage.


Yes, but Selune is the one who makes the decision whether the spell exists at all for her worshippers to pray for.

Simplistic D&D rules aside, Realmslore has never featured identical spell selections for clerics and priests of different gods. It isn't that the gods personally scrutinise every act of daily memorisation, but rather that the spells available to priests reflect the portfolios and personality of their divine patron.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1589 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  08:42:18  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Corsets and bodices, even un-boned, provide an amazing amount of support but even more compression and retention. They are uncomfortable and take a lot of getting used to and can reduce mobility. This is very similar to armor. Like armor enough training/experience and proper fitting works wonders. I've known a couple of women who wished they could wear their bodice/corset as daily wear because of the superior support these articles of clothing provided. Though I never witnessed any of them fight, at least not with weaponry, I did have the pleasure of seeing them dance, run, do somersaults and other acts of exertion. Most of these outfits left little room for jiggle or bounce, the breasts were confined such that they often looked unnatural, nothing like today's cupped lifting bras. Any lift that occurs is done by hand before the binding to keep them in place. No magic and affordable easily by most adventurers.

Thank you for the benefit of experience.

Now, the cloth bindings and leather supports, how do you imagine these can be kept clean and fresh smelling?

For example, let's suppose that a character generally exercises two to three times a day, in the mornings (always), just before noon (usually) and then in the afternoon (usually). Training is strength exercises, conditioning, running, gymnastics and speed drills in the mornings, swordsmanship and martial arts in the later exercises in the day. Each period of exercise is generally from one to three hours, depending, with the goal being to get in at least four hours of exercise per day, an average of six hours and more during days where there is no other exertion.

After the morning session, any cloth next to the body will be... well, as sweaty and disgusting as everyone who has exercised wearing anything knows that sportswear and underwear you wear during training gets. Even if you (or a servant) has time to wash everything before the next bout of exercise, it certainly will not be dry in time.

So, what do you do? Do you carry six or more sets of cloth bindings, to give your servants time to wash the dirty sets and have them dry before you use them next? That's not implausible, I guess, but it does mean that you need a lot of luggage and without servants, it's a pretty heavy load of laundry per day. Not to mention that leather bodices or corsets are much harder to clean than cloth.

Male characters will often exercise naked or wearing only a spare (not very pleasant smelling, despite frequent washing) loincloth, precisely because having to wash everything they sweat in is a lot of work when they are pretty much full-time professional athletes.*

Sparring is done in armour and padding, of course, but as far as I am aware, without magical means, there really is no way to keep exercise padding and armour from being disgusting and uncomfortable, at least not if you use it every day. My PCs either avoid being around people while wearing filthy exercise gear (and accept a degree of discomfort) or they invest in magical means to keep it fresh.

For adventurers where magic is not yet an option, exercising naked whenever possible seems pretty tempting. That, however, brings us directly to the question of support. Even the most ponderous set of genitalia on a male will be significantly less mass to secure while doing exercises other than sparring than a pair of breasts at any size above AA. Female adventurers and martial artists therefore seem to have much more trouble exercising in the nude, or while wearing minimal, wash-friendly cloth, often still wet from the last wash, than male ones.

Especially as the most sensitive area on the genital area of males is generally protected from chafing by the foreskin, making wet loincloths perhaps uncomfortable, but not torturous, but nipples (of both sexes) are not exactly something you want covered with wet, imperfectly washed cloth while exercising, as that will chafe enough to lead to bleeding.**

*Knights, mercenary hoplites or men-at-arms who actually served as professional warriors at a time when fighting was hand-to-hand were professional athletes and pretty much any fictional warrior who makes his living from his superior skill at arms has to be the same.
**I've seen bleeding nipples, in both sexes, from chafing under exercise clothing that was wet from sweating and it looked exquisitely painful.


quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Though many female athletes have more slender builds. I think it really depends on the sport, female tennis players and gymnasts tend to be more full figured than runners. Depending on what sport you look at men also range in builds as well. I will say an athletic occupation like exotic dancing often has large busted women doing very gymnastic maneuvers either completely nude or topless for hours on end. Though some of these women obviously have artificial breasts, many are just young enough where the breast tissue does not need the support. If characters were somehow magically young like many D&D characters, I imagine they could benefit similarly.

I must admit that I have not studied the motion of exotic dancers. I was under the impression that they could control what kind of movement they did and avoid anything that caused problems for unsupported breasts.

Martial art drills often require fast changes of direction and rapid sideways motion, much more rapid than anything I've heard of exotic dancers doing. Certainly much more athletic than anything I've seen during a visit to such places, which have been woefully infrequent in my life, largely because I fail to see the appeal of sad-eyed single moms with surgical scars and the like.

On the other hand, if fit women ranging from 19-26 in age require much less athletic breast support than I am assuming, from limited anecdotal evidence, exercising naked to save laundry seems much more viable.

The party of NPCs I was wondering about this for has four female martial artists. The oldest, Jannil Brightsong, is thirty, but she is a half-elf, so that is somewhat less in human years. Jannil also has small breasts and is used to strapping them down under armour. Iryreen Maelendo and Jaera Eastborn are both nineteen and neither has to worry overmuch about breast support, not having much to worry about supporting.

Peryta Ghossil, priestess and crusader of Selune, is twenty six of age and while lean and muscular as all professional adventurer athletes tend to be, she has breasts large enough to make supporting them while exercising a real worry. They are C-cups at minimum, based on the casting picture I chose for her, and might rate D-cups. She's the character for whom I was originally wondering about, i.e. how she managed to keep comfortable while training and what she did about keeping the cloth or whatever else she used clean and fresh on a daily basis.

There is also another NPC, Atheen Lesjan, travelling with the PCs, and who they have just discovered has been trained extensively as a fencer. Atheen not an enthusiastic athlete like the Nine Swords Company and certainly won't do strenuous exercise unless forced to by circumstance (or asked nicely by the hero who rescued her, with whom she is clearly infatuated), but at some point in her life, she clearly had to spend hours every day fencing with one more or skilled masters teaching her. She's lost most of her gear, so if she wants to spar with the Nine Swords Company, she'd have to borrow athletic gear. I was wondering what sort of clothing was available to borrow.

Atheen is slender, but feminine, about Jannil's size (5'9", 125 lbs.), though where Jannil has muscles (she weighs 130 lbs. without much body fat at all), Atheen has soft curves. Her breasts are fairly large for her size, though not as large as Peryta's, but Atheen's lack of pro-athlete muscle tone might make the issue of support even more important.

And as Atheen is incredibly squeamish about dirty, foul-smelling things, like sweaty sportswear (to the point that her obsession with personal hygiene is a Disadvantage in GURPS, the system I use to run my games), it was pretty important to know if she could find anything truly clean to borrow, in which case she would agree to show off her skills by training with the Nine Swords Company, or if everything smelled like sweat and a stranger's body, in which case she's shudder prettily and excuse herself.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

And then there is food, personally in my campaigns even low level adventurers are very very rarely without an abundance of food. Hell some of them bring whole mess kits with them for preparing meals on the go. I think the average soldier might experience some hardship and weightloss from rations and overwork but my adventures all tend to find the spare coin to be gluttons, no matter what the level.

It's not just an issue of funds. Modern soldiers have food that is the result of spending billions on ways to pack maximum nutrition into small, easily portable and easily consumed ration packs. They still have trouble consuming enough calories to maintain their weight during foot patrols in the Afghan mountains.

Patrolling all day while carrying all the supplies needed for a fighting man is quite simply such a calorie-intensive activity that it's all but impossible to consume enough food while you are doing it not to lose weight, starting with any body fat you might have.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

If you are interested in more Realms specific material check out Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue pages 90-93, they have undergarment options ranging from as cheap as 2, 5 and 6 gp, for leather Bustenhalts, Corsets and Broadbelts.

Thanks.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

I will say as a DM, try not to overthink things. Give them a +2 to Charisma and a -2 Balance and get back to having fun.


Roleplaying the interaction between PCs, the NPCs that arrived with them and a party of newly encountered adventurers in the Inn of the Nine Swords is fun. And for organic, plausible interaction between them, I need to know what the adventurer-athletes are doing with their time between bouts of exercise.

Are they doing laundry? Cleaning stuff with magic? Preparing a new set of bindings for the next exercise session?

Relaxing in a bath because they exercise naked as much as possible and so don't need to worry about laundry?

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 13 Apr 2018 09:46:42
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

937 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  09:51:33  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Unless those spells involve transgressing against the rules set by the faith, I don't see why Selune would care. She's got better things to do than police her worshippers' spell choices for the day unless they're praying for animate dead or ravage.


Yes, but Selune is the one who makes the decision whether the spell exists at all for her worshippers to pray for.

Simplistic D&D rules aside, Realmslore has never featured identical spell selections for clerics and priests of different gods. It isn't that the gods personally scrutinise every act of daily memorisation, but rather that the spells available to priests reflect the portfolios and personality of their divine patron.



Is there even a Realmslore list of spells available for clerics? Even in 2e, deities had some unique spells among a baseline list; Velsharoon's entry specifically calls out allowing clerics to prepare spells from the Complete Book of Necromancers, so there has to be a starting point for a cleric's spell selection. I don't think Bane's going to begrudge an adventuring cleric preparing 'create food and water' or 'detect poison'. There would of course be taboos and common sense adjudications.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32289 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  10:06:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Unless those spells involve transgressing against the rules set by the faith, I don't see why Selune would care. She's got better things to do than police her worshippers' spell choices for the day unless they're praying for animate dead or ravage.


Yes, but Selune is the one who makes the decision whether the spell exists at all for her worshippers to pray for.

Simplistic D&D rules aside, Realmslore has never featured identical spell selections for clerics and priests of different gods. It isn't that the gods personally scrutinise every act of daily memorisation, but rather that the spells available to priests reflect the portfolios and personality of their divine patron.



Is there even a Realmslore list of spells available for clerics? Even in 2e, deities had some unique spells among a baseline list; Velsharoon's entry specifically calls out allowing clerics to prepare spells from the Complete Book of Necromancers, so there has to be a starting point for a cleric's spell selection. I don't think Bane's going to begrudge an adventuring cleric preparing 'create food and water' or 'detect poison'. There would of course be taboos and common sense adjudications.



Yes -- in 2E it was the spheres the priests had major or minor access to.

I recall an issue with the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set -- I think it was Fzoul that generally had a spell prepped that wasn't on the list of spells he could have.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1589 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  10:09:21  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Is there even a Realmslore list of spells available for clerics? Even in 2e, deities had some unique spells among a baseline list; Velsharoon's entry specifically calls out allowing clerics to prepare spells from the Complete Book of Necromancers, so there has to be a starting point for a cleric's spell selection. I don't think Bane's going to begrudge an adventuring cleric preparing 'create food and water' or 'detect poison'. There would of course be taboos and common sense adjudications.


In 2e, when most of the lore-rich books on deities were written, priests of different faiths had access to different groups of spells, called 'spheres'. The basic spheres were All, Animal, Astral, Charm, Combat, Creation, Divination, Elemental, Guardian, Healing, Necromantic, Plant, Protection, Summoning, Sun, and Weather. Future lore introduced others, such as Chaos, Law, Numbers, Thought, Time, Travelers, War and Wards. I think that there might have been some others, in Dragon magazines and other sources, and it was certainly encouraged to define the mechanics of gods not written up through such spheres, adding new ones if a god's portfolios demanded.

A priest of Bane and a priest of Eldath might have shared a few basic spells that were considered 'universal' to priests, but the vast majority of their potential spell selection was fundamentally different.

I've always felt that Ed's description of faiths and the way clergy work in his Realms represents a system like this, where priests of different gods are a lot more distinct than the Cleric class of D&D mechanically represents.

Thinking about it a bit more, considering that I would put spells for doing laundry more easily in the Travellers sphere as priest spells, which priests and priestesses of Selune had major access to, I think that it would make sense for these spells to be available to them, if they are available to priests at all.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 13 Apr 2018 10:30:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  10:51:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would think there would be a lot of spells for laundry and such. People with access to magic are going to use it to avoid tedious, time-consuming work and/or improve their lives. It's just that a lot of this stuff doesn't have much use in a game where downtime is hand-waved away and where simply daily maintenance of your person is mostly ignored (eating, hygiene, going to the bathroom).

Speaking of which, there are likely low-level priest spells like hold bladder, clean backside, and cures for nausea, diarrhea, and constipation.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1589 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  11:39:28  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would think there would be a lot of spells for laundry and such. People with access to magic are going to use it to avoid tedious, time-consuming work and/or improve their lives. It's just that a lot of this stuff doesn't have much use in a game where downtime is hand-waved away and where simply daily maintenance of your person is mostly ignored (eating, hygiene, going to the bathroom).

I agree and because I'm running a game where such things are not hand-waved away, I'd like to define a bit better who has access to which convenience and comfort spells. Which spells are limited to priests (and to which faiths), which are limited to wizards and the like and which spells require more power than a beginning magic-user has?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Speaking of which, there are likely low-level priest spells like hold bladder, clean backside, and cures for nausea, diarrhea, and constipation.


I would classify such spells as falling under the 'Healing' sphere or the equivalent and allow priests of all faiths that have access to that sphere (or should have it, based on my interpretation of the god's portfolies and personalities) to pray for such magic.

Leaves enchanted with one use cleaning spells would also be popular with adventurers, as would, I imagine, cloths, sponges or other instruments which absorb and then destroy biological waste. The Realms are a setting where the 'three seashells' of Demolition Man fame might actually function, due to magic.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 13 Apr 2018 11:52:09
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1344 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  16:59:09  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

As far as cleaning and hygiene ... I'm thinking such details have been left deliberately vague in D&D and Realmslore. A sweaty brassiere can't be less offensive than a full suit of armor worn day after day while marching through the muck of adventure (as often as not by a PC who insists on also sleeping in his armor). The game and lore are written to tell stories about characters and adventures, the epic stuff of heroes and villains and monsters and swords and magic - it's not about explicitly detailing how often a character scrubs his loincloth, brushes his teeth, picks his nose, or wipes his butt.


Why not?

Any kind of worldbuilding in a work of fiction where the creator/s did not bother to even consider the social and technological differences from our modern world on such fundamental levels as hygiene and health is going to feel pretty shallow, flat and artificial.

Besides, telling stories about characters and not just carbon cut-outs of stats and minimal background details, requires thinking about who they are as people. What are their habits? What is their daily routine? How fastidious are they? Are they self-sufficient or do they find it difficult and uncomfortable to exist without servants and other domestic staff?

These are vital questions for the kind of stories I like to roleplay. Thinking about the daily routine of characters allows for plausible, naturalistic chance encounters between people while staying at an Inn, and questions of hygiene matter enormously when it comes to determining whether a character is attracted to another character in a certain context, or finds them smelly and unappealing.

And yes, how the PCs handle hygiene on the road is absolutely a question that comes up in play. As young, purse-light adventurers, their armour padding was, indeed, usually smelly. Unarmoured magic-users could be far more comfortable, pleasant-smelling and attractive under adventuring condotions than anyone wearing armour (and therefore thick padding which is hard to keep clean). They chewed various things and used various organic substitutes for toothbrushes. And they wiped their asses with leaves and washed imperfectly in cold water, if at all.

Basically, for low-level parties without access to magical solutions or numerous servants, life on the road is filthy, unpleasant and everyone smells horrible. As assumed standards of hygiene and dress are much higher for ordinary people in most places the Realms than they would have been for the ordinary people of most medieval polities, adventurers, mercenaries, merchants and other travellers would be conspiciously foul-smelling upon reaching any outpost of civilisation. And unless adventurers were ready to shed their armour, likely to remain so, as padding can't be cleaned in the same short time as a character can take a bath.

As characters get wealthier and more successful, if they want society to regard them as anything other than weird hobos with expensive looted grave goods, they should pick up pages, squires, henchmen, valets and other people to help with their daily routine. Without magic or modern technology, it takes labour to stay clean and fresh smelling while engaged in activities that make you and your gear filthy. The lack of access to servants to clean their armour is how you can tell foul-smelling mercenaries and adventurers from respectable knights and noble warriors.

Adventurers who want to be accepted in society as knights or the equivalent, but do not want to travel with a retinue like historical warriors who wore armour, need to find solutions to their hygiene needs that are dramatically better than historical ones, as historically, no one could both train and perform the duties of a full-time warrior and handle all the work involved in keeping their gear pristine while on campaign. Armoured fighters without even a single body-slave, varlet or someone else to take care of their gear and person would have been extremely uncomfortable and regarded as slovenly, poor and unattractive.

My PCs, who have long employed a variety of servants, are now wealthy enough that many of them not only have herbal and alchemical hygiene supplies to make their tasks easier, they have full-on magical items like a comb that styles hair, a bristle of cleaning teeth, a magical bar of soap, magical razors, enchanted armour padding that keeps them cool and sheds sweat and other dirt automatically, etc.

But not all NPC adventurers they encounter can afforf these comforts.



If everyone smells horrible for along enough time, you don't even smell it eventually.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1344 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  17:06:18  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good magic spells for hygene in 4e are Shape Water Cantrip, Wall of Water, Create Water, Purify Food and Water (this is a ritual and allows you to use any availible water, and reuse bathwater), Creation (to make magical soap), Unseen servant (someone to wash your back), Find Familiar (to lick you clean), Prestigiation to clean your clothes and blankets, Magificent Mansion (servants, water, facilities), Mighty Fortress (same as Magnificent Mansion but a fortress instead of a demiplane and can become permanent).

Edited by - Gyor on 13 Apr 2018 17:08:39
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1589 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  17:06:42  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

If everyone smells horrible for along enough time, you don't even smell it eventually.


Yes, but everyone with a similar income level as PCs who isn't a hopeless eccentric will have a household and retinue of servants, which is comparatively cheap in a world without the Industrial Revolution, and won't smell awful.

Anyone middle class and above can smell as sweet as they wish, without any magic, as long as they are willing to be surrounded by servants all day, as actual humans that weren't of the absolute lowest social class have done in all societies, all through history.

In any society, realistic or fantasy, where there aren't any equivalent of jobs in factories, middle class is pretty much defined as 'anyone who can afford a servant'.

Not having a servant to handle personal hygiene, laundry and the like would be regarded as weird and off-putting as a modern person who refuses to use effective soap and cleaning supplies (preferring inferior home made ones), washing machines (using rain puddles instead), showers (rain, again) or mass-produced clothing (wears ancient cast-offs or just canvas bags). It makes you stand out as a fancy kind of hobo, one who could choose not to look filthy, but prefers it.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

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Edited by - Icelander on 13 Apr 2018 17:11:55
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Gelcur
Learned Scribe

326 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  17:12:39  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Now, the cloth bindings and leather supports, how do you imagine these can be kept clean and fresh smelling?

For example, let's suppose that a character generally exercises two to three times a day, in the mornings (always), just before noon (usually) and then in the afternoon (usually). Training is strength exercises, conditioning, running, gymnastics and speed drills in the mornings, swordsmanship and martial arts in the later exercises in the day. Each period of exercise is generally from one to three hours, depending, with the goal being to get in at least four hours of exercise per day, an average of six hours and more during days where there is no other exertion.

I would say there are a few problems to over come, clean, fresh smelling and damp are all separate issues.

Dry is likely the most important for health and comfort concerns. I imagine laying the cloths out on a sun drenched rock or by a fire would dry them in a few hours, especially if they were turned over/moved. So maybe not in time for the next session by definitely for the one after. Chafing could be reduced by using salves similar to how modern runners use petroleum jelly. Drying agents could also be used like powder to absorb extra moisture. I also imagine chafing is less an issue with tight binding because body parts are less likely to move against fabric.

Clean would come next, this could be inconvenient. When wearing a bodice or corset they are normally not worn against the skin. A soft cotton layer is worn between the two to absorb sweat. The outer layer even by today's standards of hygiene could go several uses without a proper laundering. The cotton layer was the opposite with every use it needed a good wash. Many inns like modern hotels offer laundry services. Volo's Guides have been known to list such things as cold bath, hot bath, laundry, etc. I'd say starting at 5 sp a night you would have 50:50 odds at laundry service being offered once you get up to the 1 gp or more it better be included. I imagine most large temples and monasteries would offer the same. In the wilds without a servant I imagine you would balance weight vs convenience. If it is only for a few days it might not be worth laundering at all, like so many college students bringing laundry "home" to do. For extended periods you may find a "day off" or light day of training might be required on laundry day rather than worry about it every day.

Smells could linger even in clean dry clothing. Perfuming would be very common. Likely only a single bodice or corset would be brought along due to weight. These would unlikely get washed in the wild but would be just aired out and pleasantly scented. Leather is an interesting beast, our leather gear was never "washed" we would run a damp cloth over them and then air dry them. A couple times a year we would oil them to keep them supple.

quote:
Originally posted by IcelanderMartial art drills often require fast changes of direction and rapid sideways motion, much more rapid than anything I've heard of exotic dancers doing. Certainly much more athletic than anything I've seen during a visit to such places, which have been woefully infrequent in my life, largely because I fail to see the appeal of sad-eyed single moms with surgical scars and the like.

On the other hand, if fit women ranging from 19-26 in age require much less athletic breast support than I am assuming, from limited anecdotal evidence, exercising naked to save laundry seems much more viable.

I think there may be two sides to this. Exotic dancers do perform in specific ways, I'm no expert, and likely they do avoid certain motions. They also often perform upside down and twirling quickly around a pole, think cirque du soleil. My understand of martial arts is that certain moves and stances are also preferred over others. If a culture where there is a fair share of female martial artists would there not be techniques tailored to them? I am under the impression that our world's martial arts vary wildly and often your body type could better suited to one versus another?

Nude exercising could be an option for certain activities. Running, jumping, hurdles probably not. Swimming, wrestling, sparring most likely yes.

As far as characters where everything needs to be perfectly clean and smelling like roses magic is really the only solution. I imagine rare is the commoner who develops this sort of issue, but I could see someone raised in a wealthy, even if not rich, background having such a distain/dislike for filth. She is in luck the priestess of Sune should have access to a Purify Self, previously known as Cleanse, a Level 1 spell that removes all grime, dirt and stains from the caster and her vestments. See Prayers from the Faithful p.121 for further details.

quote:
Originally posted by IcelanderPatrolling all day while carrying all the supplies needed for a fighting man is quite simply such a calorie-intensive activity that it's all but impossible to consume enough food while you are doing it not to lose weight, starting with any body fat you might have.

This depends on your adventurers' style. Your scenario is very spot on. But a donkey or a mule with saddlebags makes for a poor man's Bag of Holding ~12 gp. Or add a cart to the mix, take a look at my signature for how amusing that can get.

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Roleplaying the interaction between PCs, the NPCs that arrived with them and a party of newly encountered adventurers in the Inn of the Nine Swords is fun. And for organic, plausible interaction between them, I need to know what the adventurer-athletes are doing with their time between bouts of exercise.

Ah I see your concern then. I also enjoy having my players roleplay out the day in the life material. Ever since I read Ed's Spellfire with the party being ambushed while Shandril was using the bushes.


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would think there would be a lot of spells for laundry and such. People with access to magic are going to use it to avoid tedious, time-consuming work and/or improve their lives. It's just that a lot of this stuff doesn't have much use in a game where downtime is hand-waved away and where simply daily maintenance of your person is mostly ignored (eating, hygiene, going to the bathroom).

Life in Faerun from 3E Campaign Setting is what I use as my go to:
quote:
magic still rarely touches the life of the common Faerūnian.
quote:
Most magic items fall into one of two broad categories - gimmicks and adventuring magic. Gimmicks are commonplace because they're not hard to make and not very expensive. They amuse, delight, and entertain, and on occasion do something useful in a small way.
quote:
Nearly all Faerūnians, no matter how humble or removed from the adventuring lifestyle, have seen minor magic gimmicks at some point in their lives. Fewer actually own such treasures, but it's not unheard of for well-off merchants or low nobles to save their money for minor trinkets such as a pot that can make itself hot, or a broom that can sweep itself.

I know people play the Realms with varying degrees of magic but this seems like a fair middle ground.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.

Edited by - Gelcur on 13 Apr 2018 17:28:43
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1589 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  18:11:45  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

I would say there are a few problems to over come, clean, fresh smelling and damp are all separate issues.

Good point.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Dry is likely the most important for health and comfort concerns. I imagine laying the cloths out on a sun drenched rock or by a fire would dry them in a few hours, especially if they were turned over/moved. So maybe not in time for the next session by definitely for the one after.

Ok, thanks, but that would be a major problem if the exercise periods are separated by several hours of marching, instead of staying put.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Chafing could be reduced by using salves similar to how modern runners use petroleum jelly. Drying agents could also be used like powder to absorb extra moisture. I also imagine chafing is less an issue with tight binding because body parts are less likely to move against fabric.

Ah, that's a good point!

There aren't a lot of petroleum products in Faerun, at least not that I've seen in sources. I imagine that the raw materials are there, but beyond a few alchemists, there aren't many people making use of them.

What kind of salves, lotions and lubricants are available?

What do the Nine Swords Company use to massage each other, to alleviate the muscle aches and stiffness of heavy exercising?

Olive oil would have to be imported from somewhere slightly further south, I imagine. What are good equivalents for people in more northerly climes than where olives grow?

What's a sweet smelling, sensuously pleasant oil usable for massages, oiling one's body (or someone else's) for skin care and similar uses?

And what kind of lubricants are available for those who require such during sexual activities?

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Clean would come next, this could be inconvenient. When wearing a bodice or corset they are normally not worn against the skin. A soft cotton layer is worn between the two to absorb sweat. The outer layer even by today's standards of hygiene could go several uses without a proper laundering. The cotton layer was the opposite with every use it needed a good wash.

Thanks, that's good information.

Incidentally, what would be 'today's standards'? Because a lot of people sweat enough during 1-3 hours of intensive exercise to soak through underlayers and basically drench every single piece of clothing they wear in sweat.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Many inns like modern hotels offer laundry services. Volo's Guides have been known to list such things as cold bath, hot bath, laundry, etc. I'd say starting at 5 sp a night you would have 50:50 odds at laundry service being offered once you get up to the 1 gp or more it better be included. I imagine most large temples and monasteries would offer the same.

This is true.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

In the wilds without a servant I imagine you would balance weight vs convenience. If it is only for a few days it might not be worth laundering at all, like so many college students bringing laundry "home" to do. For extended periods you may find a "day off" or light day of training might be required on laundry day rather than worry about it every day.

The Nine Swords Company are actually headquartered at the Inn of the Nine Swords in Swords Pool. When the PCs arrived there, their fellow adventurers had just got in the day before, with some party members wounded, and had been training in the morning and just before noon (light training for those who had not yet been completely healed).

They obviously put a lot of stuff into the hands of servants at the inn to wash, but the inn doesn't have the kind of massive numbers of servants needed to provide full household service for nobles or landed knights. As Melicent Mellicot would have told them, if they need more than one load of laundry a day, they need to pay her more, enough to hire a few extra hands on a permanent basis.

As the Nine Swords Company spend a lot of time on the road as well, that isn't worth it to them, I imagine. Also, they are a bit short on cash, having had a lot of expenses lately and not actually having a lot of adventures that lead to wealth. Apparently, mystic quests and a devotion to rediscovering ancient blade magic traditions don't actually pay.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Smells could linger even in clean dry clothing. Perfuming would be very common.

Yeah, most people would be used to a certain level of sweaty sports-wear smell, I imagine. Of course, a very good reason to make money is not to have to live like that any more.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Likely only a single bodice or corset would be brought along due to weight. These would unlikely get washed in the wild but would be just aired out and pleasantly scented. Leather is an interesting beast, our leather gear was never "washed" we would run a damp cloth over them and then air dry them. A couple times a year we would oil them to keep them supple.

Ok, thanks for that information. That's great to have.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

I think there may be two sides to this. Exotic dancers do perform in specific ways, I'm no expert, and likely they do avoid certain motions. They also often perform upside down and twirling quickly around a pole, think cirque du soleil. My understand of martial arts is that certain moves and stances are also preferred over others. If a culture where there is a fair share of female martial artists would there not be techniques tailored to them? I am under the impression that our world's martial arts vary wildly and often your body type could better suited to one versus another?

If you limit the type of motions that a martial art teaches to make it more convenient to train, safer, more exciting to watch or for any other reason than what works in combat, you're emphasising the 'art' part over 'martial'. The result is something like a lot of martial arts taught in a peaceful society where hand-to-hand combat isn't actually important for most of those who learn martial arts, it's about as much use in actual combat as soccer or baseball.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Nude exercising could be an option for certain activities. Running, jumping, hurdles probably not. Swimming, wrestling, sparring most likely yes.

Just so.

Though magical means of breast support could, of course, allow any kind of motion. Which I'm guessing that might be something that Peryta Ghossil often does, though not, it seems, on the day where we are in play (she seems unhappy, cries a lot and tries to hide it). If she goes training at all, she'll probably improvise more padding than she's used to training with, covering her from head to toe, and try to spar with someone strong and skilled.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

As far as characters where everything needs to be perfectly clean and smelling like roses magic is really the only solution. I imagine rare is the commoner who develops this sort of issue, but I could see someone raised in a wealthy, even if not rich, background having such a distain/dislike for filth.

Atheen Leshan wasn't born upper class, but she's lived in great houses since childhood, as her mother is a very high class courtesan (informally, but practically), who not only has lived with a series of rich older men, but has amassed enough wealth in her own name to buy vineyards and a membership in the Threespires laern in Sarshel, as part of the Vintners' narnoth, or the Consolidated Society of Vintners' by Royal Appointment, in Sarshel.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

She is in luck the priestess of Sune should have access to a Purify Self, previously known as Cleanse, a Level 1 spell that removes all grime, dirt and stains from the caster and her vestments. See Prayers from the Faithful p.121 for further details.

Thanks! That's actually perfect.

Peryta Ghossil is a priestess of Selune, not Sune, but she'll have access to this nonetheless.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

This depends on your adventurers' style. Your scenario is very spot on. But a donkey or a mule with saddlebags makes for a poor man's Bag of Holding ~12 gp. Or add a cart to the mix, take a look at my signature for how amusing that can get.

It isn't just a question of having to carry all the calories. It's that it's physically difficult to consume enough food to replace all the calories that are expended during hard patrolling and few people are psychologically and physiologically able to do so.

Feeling dead tired, stressed and in constant pain isn't conductive to eating huge meals even when you don't feel like it and unless the food is varied, delicious and exceptionally easy to eat and prepare, most modern soldiers, SOF, mountain troops, etc., do not manage to eat enough to maintain weight during types of deployment which most resemble the daily life of adventurers, i.e. patrolling hostile land on foot while carrying full combat and patrol gear.

The most likely scenario is that adventurers gain weight during off-months and shed it quickly during adventures, like soldiers in pre-modern times did. And that adventurers who spend a lot of time on the road would most often have very low body fat percentages, as pre-modern soldiers did during the campaign season.

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Ah I see your concern then. I also enjoy having my players roleplay out the day in the life material. Ever since I read Ed's Spellfire with the party being ambushed while Shandril was using the bushes.

One PC is sulking now, due to an NPC shadow mage not trusting him to be able to heal the shadow mage's apprentice (who OD'ed on Mordayn vapour, stopped breathing and would be dead if she hadn't been put into suspended animation). He's furious with some of the members of the Nine Swords Company for not backing his claims of awesome divine power, equal to any high priest or priestess, and fully capable of the equivalent of the 6th level Heal spell, even when it's clear that there is no time to try multiple time, if the magically-induced coma is removed, she'll either have to be healed instantly or die in short order.

Various NPCs are angry with one another, or suspect each other of crimes or are furiously jealous over something. PCs are, obviously, involved somehow in at least half of these dramas.

And the three Mellicot sisters are not at all happy that a dark magic using apprentice almost burnt down their inn smoking a poisonous intoxicant, overdosed and looks to have killed herself. When Melicent, the eldest, complained over the smoke and the danger of lighting fires in upstairs rooms, she was terrified by the response that the angry and afraid shadow mage gave, which she interpreted as a thinly veiled threat of death, serious injury or at least an unpleasant magical curse.

It's a soap-opera melodrama, but everyone is armed and some of them can call on awesome supernatural powers if they are unhappy enough with their fellow guests at the inn.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2018 :  02:59:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good evening Sr. Scribe Wrigley,

I was elated to take note of your post regarding economics analysis in the Realms!

I am currently about 40% through my studies in a Doctorate of Applied Economics in Cluster Development. I'd absolutely love to collaborate with you if you are still interested in such material? Though there are clearly tools that are used and were developed in modern times, within the confines of systems of government and economies that are frankly anathema to what it takes to establish a cluster in the Realms, I certainly know economics. I've done some research in my undergrad as well as in my MBA program regarding high Germanic, Manorial economics of the 15th century that I feel is quite relevant to what most people conveniently use in their campaigns.

Please do message me on the site if you'd like to discuss further.

I know its been a few months, but I'm quite interested. Please feel free to message me here on the site if you're interested.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I see adventurers more like hireswords or mercenaries if you will. They own weapons and armor, travel light and earn big money on contract and live from those money until next job. They tend to overspend enjoying their life as it could end any time they delve into some dungeon, forest, ... So they excercise mainly in real combat and only a few are wise enough to buy a trainer or practice themselves. Those are usualy the long living ones. For their hygiene I suppose they are not into it that much. They own a spare set of clothes and once they arrive into civilisation they go to local baths or order such in a tavern, pay some servant to clean their armor, boots and travel clothes. After they are clean they put on those clean clothes and go enjoy their money in town. On the road they may make a brake near some lake or river to wash themselves and their clothes - usualy person jumps in wearing those clothes and washing them on themselves.

You are actualy right that somebody owning a warhorse and plate armor should have a "sqire" who will clean, cook, help them don an armor and to get into the saddle. Usualy war horses were not used outside combat as they were too agressive and such noble man had a riding horse for traveling and pleasure rides. Also horse armor was transported separately on a cart with tent, poles, food, water, ... If he got more then one servant he needed a wagon for supplies.

We can all agree that economics of D&D is flawed and oversimplified. I have gone from bottom saying a commoner earn about 3gp per month, merchant about 30gp per month and calculated estimated prices of common goods from that. Beggining adventurers earn about 50gp per job. Easy help for me is to say that commoners pay mostly with copper and merchants with silver. Nobles and such have no upper limit on cost, usualy pay with gold and magic items (along with gems) are a form of currency for high volumes - paying 100.000gp is more convinient by sending a magic sword that wagon of gold.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6836 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2018 :  03:39:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
... If the above post by cpthero2 is SPAM SPAM SPAM (of an unwholesome non-Monty-Python variety) then y'all can delete this comment along with it, lol ...

[/Ayrik]
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2018 :  03:47:22  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good evening Great Reader Ayrik,

I apologize if I have violated the posting/etiquette rules. My intention was only to get involved in the post.

If you'd like, I will delete my reply.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

... If the above post by cpthero2 is SPAM SPAM SPAM (of an unwholesome non-Monty-Python variety) then y'all can delete this comment along with it, lol ...


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6836 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2018 :  04:38:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
I apologize if I have violated the posting/etiquette rules. My intention was only to get involved in the post.

No need for you to apologize, cpthero2, I apologize for the accusation.

Your posts seemed suspicious and strange to me, I thought that if they were a spambot then there would be no response to further interactions.

Don't worry, you haven't violated any rules of conduct (and they're loosely enforced anyhow, as long as everyone remains reasonably polite), feel free to join into any conversations you like (as you already have). No need for formal etiquette, our writings tend to be very ad-hoc, we often debate or disagree on finer details as all scholarly pedants do. Welcome to Candlekeep! And each of us is encouraged to write an introduction. But, lol, this is a public forum so I wouldn't recommend posting personal information.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Sep 2018 04:52:59
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
477 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2018 :  12:26:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good morning Sr. Scribe Ayrik,

Thank you for that! I realized I had effectively, with one or two small edits I believe, posted the same reply without thinking on it much, in another location on the site. I think your diligence keeps the place squared away. So thank you.

I appreciate the warm welcome too!

Regards,


quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
I apologize if I have violated the posting/etiquette rules. My intention was only to get involved in the post.

No need for you to apologize, cpthero2, I apologize for the accusation.

Your posts seemed suspicious and strange to me, I thought that if they were a spambot then there would be no response to further interactions.

Don't worry, you haven't violated any rules of conduct (and they're loosely enforced anyhow, as long as everyone remains reasonably polite), feel free to join into any conversations you like (as you already have). No need for formal etiquette, our writings tend to be very ad-hoc, we often debate or disagree on finer details as all scholarly pedants do. Welcome to Candlekeep! And each of us is encouraged to write an introduction. But, lol, this is a public forum so I wouldn't recommend posting personal information.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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grayhoss
Acolyte

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2019 :  22:02:53  Show Profile Send grayhoss a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reportedly, embrocation (aka 'wrapping the bosom and torso in tight-as-hells cloth wrapping') both bruises and chafes like a mother. Delia Sherman called this out in her 'The Brazen Mirror' when her character Eleanore Flower disrobed after abandoning her masquerade as a man.

Edited by - grayhoss on 09 Sep 2019 22:33:53
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1856 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2019 :  00:58:32  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Aside from comfort issues with mail in direct contact with very sensitive skin,

Do you have bare concrete walls with reinforcing steel grid in plain view in your current room?
Structural materials don't need to be the same as surface materials, and thus in direct contact with anything in particular.

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

No. 'Mail' means a fine mesh of metal wire, i.e. what Victorians erroneously called 'chainmail'.

I thought "chain" was originally about different weaving (whether sheet patterns or related techniques, e.g. adding a pre-made chain "thread").

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Sep 2019 01:03:23
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