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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35683 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2021 :  05:36:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt


But I'll also ask that they not begrudge me my desire to run D&D in a setting where I sat down an applied logical consistency to the design of the game world. Even if only for my own amusement.



No one is asking you not to apply logical consistency -- the opposite, in fact: You have to apply ALL factors.



No, you're telling me that I'm wrong to want to apply consistency to the design of a game world. And I can't apply all factors because they aren't real. I can't assume that elven farming techniques would advance what would otherwise be late medieval farming to modern factory farm levels because elves aren't real and so using them is just a random handwave to make whatever you want to work to work.


The game world itself isn't real. Why can't things that are very real within the game world be applied to that world?

And no, I NEVER said you were wrong to want to apply consistency. I'm saying you're wrong to refuse to apply in-setting factors to a fictitious setting just because those factors don't exist in the real world. You're applying your own handwavium as a reason to avoid handwavium.

You don't want to consider that elves and dragons and orc hordes would have an influence? Fine, take them out. Don't have them in the setting at all. That's the only logical way for them to not have any influence.

Since you're refusing to apply factors that very much would influence this fictitious setting, I see no point in continuing the discussion. I'm out.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Dec 2021 05:38:58
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6330 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2021 :  06:40:06  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer

Hello thenightgaunt!

quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt
But because they're all lumped together you get that fun moment where the DM says that the navy is pursuing your small caravel with a mighty Dromond warship (because the author thought it looked cool and had decent speed and a lot of sailors and was 2x as expensive as the caravel in the book). To which a knowledgeable player sighs with relief and says it isn't a huge threat because that's a big Greek, single square sailed galley or the 12th century at best being used to purse what is basically a small, fast, massively maneuverable Portuguese ship of the 15th century which can use it's twin lateen (triangular) sails to just...tack into the wind...and generally out maneuver and stay ahead of the Dromond until it's rowers collapse. Because if there's one thing single mast square sail ships suck at, its going against the wind. One of many reasons they stopped using that design by the time the caravel was in use.

That situation is completely avoidable of course and both you I and any good DM could just work around it, but it's just so very very silly. And that can take away from the moment.



I am persuaded. Ships are not my thing. But if you were at my table fielding that information I would stop, have a thoughtful discussion on the matter, and then hot fix it on the spot with a solution based upon the knowledge of all the players on the matter. I don't care if it about basketweaving. If it relates to how the world functions and getting the details right make it for my players, then I will adjust the world.



I'm not persuaded. The moment is taken away when the DM lazily drops in RW names. Tell the players in their relthor sailing ship that they are being pursued by the Black Kraken pirate fleet in their omarth ships, which are twice their size and have black sails that spell death on the high seas. RW touchstones help some DMs, however they should never be featured in such a way that breaks the immersion of players. Too many FR products have made this mistake over the years.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2021 :  14:26:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer

Hello thenightgaunt!

quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt
But because they're all lumped together you get that fun moment where the DM says that the navy is pursuing your small caravel with a mighty Dromond warship (because the author thought it looked cool and had decent speed and a lot of sailors and was 2x as expensive as the caravel in the book). To which a knowledgeable player sighs with relief and says it isn't a huge threat because that's a big Greek, single square sailed galley or the 12th century at best being used to purse what is basically a small, fast, massively maneuverable Portuguese ship of the 15th century which can use it's twin lateen (triangular) sails to just...tack into the wind...and generally out maneuver and stay ahead of the Dromond until it's rowers collapse. Because if there's one thing single mast square sail ships suck at, its going against the wind. One of many reasons they stopped using that design by the time the caravel was in use.

That situation is completely avoidable of course and both you I and any good DM could just work around it, but it's just so very very silly. And that can take away from the moment.



I am persuaded. Ships are not my thing. But if you were at my table fielding that information I would stop, have a thoughtful discussion on the matter, and then hot fix it on the spot with a solution based upon the knowledge of all the players on the matter. I don't care if it about basketweaving. If it relates to how the world functions and getting the details right make it for my players, then I will adjust the world.



I'm not persuaded. The moment is taken away when the DM lazily drops in RW names. Tell the players in their relthor sailing ship that they are being pursued by the Black Kraken pirate fleet in their omarth ships, which are twice their size and have black sails that spell death on the high seas. RW touchstones help some DMs, however they should never be featured in such a way that breaks the immersion of players. Too many FR products have made this mistake over the years.

-- George Krashos



Not necessarily lazy... for a lot of folks they just DON'T KNOW... so they start out learning all these new words by immersing themselves in this game. For instance, I never knew what a falchion was before this game, and so when I discovered the term and realized what it looked like, it was easier to describe a "weapon with that look" as a falchion. Everything was but a sword when I started, and a javelin was just a spear. Similarly, I have ingrained in my psyche exactly what the difference is between conjuration, evocation, illusion, enchantment, etc... but to others those terms just mean "magic". Now I know a ton of words about weapons, armor, castles, trees, metals, gems, spells, etc.... and sometimes when I try to talk to someone not so immersed I realize just how many terms for the parts of a knife I just take for granted.

Then there's AJA.... who continually makes me learn new words

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3665 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2021 :  16:16:03  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Dromonds are canonical Forgotten Realms ship styles/designs anyway. As are galleons, junks, kayaks, longships, caravels, carracks, dhows, and a ton of other actual boat styles/designs. That aside, in my experience, it's always been more useful to be relatable to the players, rather than throw in buzzwords for the sake of immersion. Or, when/if you do, have visual aids or take a second or two to explain out of game exactly what a [insert Forgotten Realms buzzword term] actually is.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2021 :  05:36:47  Show Profile Send Kelcimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Wooly Rupert!

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Just because something was phased out by a certain point in the real world does not mean the same thing would happen in a place with wildly different influences. I don't get why it's so difficult to understand that changing variables changes the end result.


I didn't know how important keels were, but thenightgaunt articulated very cleanly how important they are and how fast they make non-keel boats obsolete. You don't need to know any other variables. As soon as keels are a thing, then non-keel boats will go out of use. Not rocket surgery.

Trying to say that keels won't catch on in non-keel societies because of elves, magic, or something is just kinda lame. The value of keels is independent of setting. It has nothing to do with magic and elves and stuff.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, look at the real world. Even today there are plenty of examples of better technologies that have not supplanted worse ones. Electric cars, for example, quite predate cars with internal combustion engines -- but here we all, almost 200 years later, with billions more gas-powered cars than electric ones in existence. Sure, electric cars weren't all that practical or efficient when invented -- but neither were gas ones. And yet electric cars were pretty much forgotten for well over 100 years.


I don't think it is at all obvious that electric cars are superior to internal combustion engines. People keep trying to push electric cars, but so far they have not yet created enough value for people to transition to them in bulk.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Look at vinyl records. We have streaming audio, CDs, MP3s -- and vinyl records are still being made. There are better technologies, but some people continue to buy vinyl, so the inferior technology lingers decades past its prime.



Vinyl has made a resurgence in the past decade or so as people have come to recognize the benefits of listening to music on vinyl. Are records bigger and harder to transport than all the stuff you mentioned? Yeah. That's not the point. Vinyl sounds better. Here is a video by a musician expounding on the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSpghVWxCAU

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Even in the real world, better does not always replace worse. It's not at all unrealistic for the same thing to happen in a fictitious setting.



You haven't yet made your argument about the real world "better does not always replace worse", whereas I think thenightgaunt has sufficiently made his point about how technologies that become obsolete wind up not getting used anymore.

Thenightgaunt articulated the power of the keel. Here is what he had to say in case you forgot:

quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt
But because they're all lumped together you get that fun moment where the DM says that the navy is pursuing your small caravel with a mighty Dromond warship (because the author thought it looked cool and had decent speed and a lot of sailors and was 2x as expensive as the caravel in the book). To which a knowledgeable player sighs with relief and says it isn't a huge threat because that's a big Greek, single square sailed galley or the 12th century at best being used to purse what is basically a small, fast, massively maneuverable Portuguese ship of the 15th century which can use it's twin lateen (triangular) sails to just...tack into the wind...and generally out maneuver and stay ahead of the Dromond until it's rowers collapse.



Maneuverability of a ship is not like CDs vs records. Maneuverability on the high seas is a matter of getting your goods to their destination, is a matter life and death. The invention of the keel is not something that can lightly be ignored.

You have not yet said anything to justify it being lightly ignored.
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2021 :  05:50:20  Show Profile Send Kelcimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by thenightgaunt

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No one is asking you not to apply logical consistency -- the opposite, in fact: You have to apply ALL factors.



No, you're telling me that I'm wrong to want to apply consistency to the design of a game world. And I can't apply all factors because they aren't real. I can't assume that elven farming techniques would advance what would otherwise be late medieval farming to modern factory farm levels because elves aren't real and so using them is just a random handwave to make whatever you want to work to work.



Thenightgaunt is looking for consistency on ships and has relevant questions as to what that would mean for the rest of society. In the real world we know of many different societies that have existed in many different time periods. We do have a baseline to correlate complexity of ship design with how prosperous a society is. This is ultimately a systems question and it is a fair line of inquiry.

Wooly Rupert, you just seem unhappy about that line of inquiry, seeing the things thenightgaunt is talking about as "a bunch of random stuff that does not necessarily have connection to one another". Seen in this light, your basic suggestion of "Well! if you want to apply consistency on THAT, then you ALSO have to apply consistency on all these other random things that are not necessarily applicable, OTHERWISE you're doing it wrong!" makes a bit more sense. I think you just fail to understand how peoples decision works throughout history when new technologies come along that are unambiguously better AND you fail to understand the systems and prosperity that need to be in place in order to support and justify advanced ship design. In fairness, that is a bit of a complicated subject.

I would say that thenightgaunt has a fairly narrow range of variables he is working to isolate. It doesn't sound like he is trying to create a complex "history of the development of technology and economics in the realms". He is just trying to work out where the realms is currently at in terms of ship building and making sure that the general prosperity and systems of the civilization more or less matches what would be necessary for said ship building.
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2021 :  06:00:41  Show Profile Send Kelcimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello George Krashos!

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm not persuaded. The moment is taken away when the DM lazily drops in RW names. Tell the players in their relthor sailing ship that they are being pursued by the Black Kraken pirate fleet in their omarth ships, which are twice their size and have black sails that spell death on the high seas. RW touchstones help some DMs, however they should never be featured in such a way that breaks the immersion of players. Too many FR products have made this mistake over the years.



Forget the names, he's talking about the utility of the keel. What about the utility of the keel that allows a ship to tack into the wind are you unpersuaded by?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2021 :  14:26:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Dromonds are canonical Forgotten Realms ship styles/designs anyway. As are galleons, junks, kayaks, longships, caravels, carracks, dhows, and a ton of other actual boat styles/designs. That aside, in my experience, it's always been more useful to be relatable to the players, rather than throw in buzzwords for the sake of immersion. Or, when/if you do, have visual aids or take a second or two to explain out of game exactly what a [insert Forgotten Realms buzzword term] actually is.



Yep, that I can agree to as well. Especially the "have visual aids" part if you're not using a regular word. I'd be more inclined to say that someone had a "modified" version of a galley that's more seaworthy in a way that WE havent figured out yet, but that the general look is LIKE a galley. Let's face it, horses had saddles for a long time before the stirrup, but a stirrup might look entirely different in FR in form (not sure how because its a method WE haven't figured out yet but THEY did).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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thenightgaunt
Acolyte

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2021 :  04:07:00  Show Profile Send thenightgaunt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm really annoyed that I forgot that "Ed Greenwood Presents - Elminster's Forgetten Realms" is a thing that was written and that contains a massive amount of mundane lore like this.

There's a relevant quote from page 77.
"Most farming families in the Heartlands till six acres or less, though some own or claim far more. Much land is left to grow wild, as woodlots have proven a vital part of their commerce, providing a source of firewood, poles (from coppicing), and such, and untilled meadows provide handy wild grazing land."

That's definitely a place to start.

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thenightgaunt
Acolyte

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2021 :  05:22:55  Show Profile Send thenightgaunt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The answer was England, Stuart to Georgian era.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/if-waterdeep-had-an-equivalent-in-our-real-world-what-city-would-it-be/

To quote Ed answering if Waterdeep has a real world equivalent:

"I try never to do real-world equivalents for the Realms.
If I did, I'd say Stuart- into Georgian-era London, England might be closest.
New York as of Gangs of NY is too crowded and too-large-share-immigrant a population to really fit, but if you're stretching for a US equivalent."
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