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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
209 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  20:32:34  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as to whether it referred to literally arcane magic in that instance, I guess only Eric L. Boyd can answer, since he wrote the book.

But honestly each to his own. I quite relish those supplemental books of the 3E era myself and would welcome seeing some of those deities, monsters and races adapted to the Realms.

Goliaths and Dragonborn also had their origins in those books (Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon respectively), and they have frequently appeared in 5E FR adventure books. Also, Tharmekhûl (another dwarf deity from Races of Stone, same as Thautam) was mentioned in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, as being worshipped by clan Melairkyn.

And technically a lot of the demihuman and monster deities (Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, etc.) are not the creations of Ed or other FR designers but rather had their origins in the Deities and Demigods (1980) book which is also a general D&D supplemental book. But those deities were eventually adapted to the Realms. I can't help but wonder what the Forgotten Realms was like before this, or what the religion of the elves, dwarves, etc. was like (perhaps they just worshipped the standard FR pantheon, for example Selune for elves or Tyr for dwarves?).

Edited by - deserk on 15 Nov 2021 20:39:29
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  22:20:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Well, as to whether it referred to literally arcane magic in that instance, I guess only Eric L. Boyd can answer, since he wrote the book.

But honestly each to his own. I quite relish those supplemental books of the 3E era myself and would welcome seeing some of those deities, monsters and races adapted to the Realms.

Goliaths and Dragonborn also had their origins in those books (Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon respectively), and they have frequently appeared in 5E FR adventure books. Also, Tharmekhûl (another dwarf deity from Races of Stone, same as Thautam) was mentioned in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, as being worshipped by clan Melairkyn.

And technically a lot of the demihuman and monster deities (Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, etc.) are not the creations of Ed or other FR designers but rather had their origins in the Deities and Demigods (1980) book which is also a general D&D supplemental book. But those deities were eventually adapted to the Realms. I can't help but wonder what the Forgotten Realms was like before this, or what the religion of the elves, dwarves, etc. was like (perhaps they just worshipped the standard FR pantheon, for example Selune for elves or Tyr for dwarves?).



Actually, the dragonborn of 3E and the dragonborn of 4E/5E are not at all related. It was another unfortunate example of WotC saying "hey, let's ignore what we've already done here, and just do something entirely different!" The 3E dragonborn were originally elves and humans and other PC races that chose to be reborn in a more draconic form.

As for Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage... Well, let's just say that when it comes to Undermountain, this is another source that ignores prior lore and changes something existing into something it's not. What they did with Jhesiyra Kestellharp, in particular, is just painful.

When the Realms was first published, the default stance for non-human deities was the existing ones were the ones in the Realms. They're in the OGB, and in the old "Down to Earth Divinity" article, Ed says "All nonhumans’ deities, plus Thrym and Surtur of the Norse mythos, from the DDG, have been adopted." The article specifically references Rillifane Rallathil and Lolth. The original DDG didn't give much coverage to the dwarven pantheon; I believe it was Monster Mythology that filled that one out, and that book has been sort of the default for gods not covered elsewhere, at least until those Races of Whatever books came out.

And again, I want to make it clear, I'm not adverse to bringing in deities, when appropriate. But there has to be an entirely empty space to be filled, a need to fill that space, and a good candidate for that space. I'd not bring in a dwarven god of knock-knock jokes, because there's no need for one. The god of cups and saucers that Ilsensine wryly commented on is also entirely unnecessary.

Dwarves didn't need a god of magic when their pantheon was laid out because they couldn't use arcane magic -- that god would have been as relevant as a god of knock-knock jokes.

In later editions, with dwarves able to use magic, then it makes sense for them to have a deity of magic. If it wasn't for Dugmaren Brightmantle, I'd've tapped Dumathoin for the role, as the Keeper of Secrets Under the Mountain.

But for Dugmaren, we've got that reference in Demihuman Deities and another I just found, from Monster Mythology (page 18): "There are very few cases of dwarven deities governing the sea, plant life and agriculture, atmospheric phenomena (rain, clouds, stars, etc.), woodlands and forests, animals, comedy and pleasure, or arcane and mystical knowledge (Dugmaren Brightmantle is unique on this score)." His write-up on page 29 also says "Recovery of lost and/or arcane knowledge is a prime task."

Even if you discount those references, many mages are all about discovery and experimentation, and that is still covered by Dugmaren. Sure, those things are covered in other pantheons by deities not associated with magic, but that doesn't change how good of a fit it is.

Thautum is simply redundant, in addition to not being established in Realmslore. Tharmekhûl seems to be just a space filler, though I think he'd be a better fit if the focus was on fire being used to strengthen and purify things, rather than "Moradin's toady who does these things on the side."

Honestly, if I was going to import any of the Races of Stone deities into the dwarven pantheon, it'd be Hanseath. Brewing, drinking, and singing are big deals to the dwarves, so it's an odd omission from their established pantheon.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Nov 2021 22:56:03
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6329 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  07:06:21  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10963 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  13:33:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Going back to what I was discussing previously, about incorporating some Norse Lore in an unusual way... it COULD be that the dwarves at one point did have a much more proactive god of knowledge and magic prior to Dugmaren Brightmantle. Perhaps he was killed off, and there was some kind of backlash (literal) of a magical form within dwarven society. Now that could be the aforementioned Alviss, a dwarven god of runic knowledge, or it could be a more traditional dwarven deity (i.e. the derro god who is confined to a throne that may have links to the far realm). It could be something where the dwarven ties to their wards, which were tied to the god of runes, led to some bleed over of insanity into the minds of dwarven mages. This might have led to the distrust of magic that we see now. It also might not have been insanity, but rather actions like wild magic resulting from the death of the gods, which would also lead to distrust (because dwarves like things that happen consistently). It may also be that Dugmaren got some of his portfolios because he's tried to carry what Alviss did before he was killed, but he lacks some of what Alviss knew (perhaps because other deities somehow stole the knowledge before killing him).

I especially stress this with the idea of this topic of "an ancient dwarven spellcaster order".... so it doesn't mean that the spellcaster order is currently active. This can lead off to a storyline within a campaign where perhaps dwarves are extremely interested in this weapon not for its abilities, but because it hints to a history that's been lost to them. It might open up the "rediscovery" of lost lore or some lost kingdom, etc..

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Nov 2021 14:03:01
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10963 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  13:59:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos



I could definitely see some Azerblood dwarves worshipping Tharmekhûl, and since Eric gave them a region in the realms, I see that as a good addition

From Dragon 350: Legacies of Ancient Empires

Azerbloods are most common in the Small Teeth mountains of western Amn, as most are members of the remnants of Clan Azerkyn, which once ruled the southern caverns of the Adamant Kingdom of Xothaerin. Individual azerbloods can also be found in shield dwarf clans dwelling in the mountain ranges that lie near the Lake of Steam.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xothaerin

I could see Shanatar also being a place where Thautum might have also been worshipped.

It should be noted that Dugmaren Brightmantle fills a role as a god of knowledge and "spellcasters". Thautum is more a god of "making magic weapons and armor". He's a crafting god. In this way, I would probably present Dugmaren as a god embraced by wizards, but Thautum would be embraced by artificers (who tend to be inclined to melee than traditional wizards in current rulesets). Thautum would be a great god for artificer armorers and battlesmiths.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35679 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  15:32:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos



I could definitely see some Azerblood dwarves worshipping Tharmekhûl, and since Eric gave them a region in the realms, I see that as a good addition

From Dragon 350: Legacies of Ancient Empires

Azerbloods are most common in the Small Teeth mountains of western Amn, as most are members of the remnants of Clan Azerkyn, which once ruled the southern caverns of the Adamant Kingdom of Xothaerin. Individual azerbloods can also be found in shield dwarf clans dwelling in the mountain ranges that lie near the Lake of Steam.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xothaerin

I could see Shanatar also being a place where Thautum might have also been worshipped.

It should be noted that Dugmaren Brightmantle fills a role as a god of knowledge and "spellcasters". Thautum is more a god of "making magic weapons and armor". He's a crafting god. In this way, I would probably present Dugmaren as a god embraced by wizards, but Thautum would be embraced by artificers (who tend to be inclined to melee than traditional wizards in current rulesets). Thautum would be a great god for artificer armorers and battlesmiths.



I find no reason to object to this. Connecting Azerblood dwarves to Tharmekhûl gives him more of a purpose than just being Moradin's assistant and gives him at least something Realms-specific.

Thautum as a god of crafting magical items works for me, too. It still leaves Dugmaren as the god of dwarven wizards (which I clearly favor), but gives Thautum a useful role -- because dwarves are known for the magical items they craft. (This was always an issue for me, in 2E, anyway: if dwarves couldn't be wizards, how could they make magical items? The way Salvatore handled Bruenor making Aegis-Fang was well-done, but that came across as a once-in-a-lifetime thing and didn't solve the entire issue)

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  20:13:39  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...

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see
Learned Scribe

235 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2021 :  14:47:52  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll note that in AD&D 2nd edition, Laduguer was explicitly a god of magic; it was listed in his portfolio in both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities. The obvious reason dwarves couldn't be wizards, then, was that Moradin had exiled the dwarf god of magic; that was also presumably why they had difficulty using many magic items.

(The logical thing for 3rd edition, then, would have been a very cool rapprochement in the wake of the Time of Troubles, a distrustful working relationship made between Moradin and Laduguer to reverse the long decline of both halves of dwarfdom. Instead we got that "Thunder Blessing" in the FRCS that explicitly excluded duergar.)

Incidentally, the way dwarves crafted magic items in AD&D 1e was explicitly that their clerics did it (and dwarf clerics in that edition were NPC only, before Unearthed Arcana came out).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2021 :  15:54:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

I'll note that in AD&D 2nd edition, Laduguer was explicitly a god of magic; it was listed in his portfolio in both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities. The obvious reason dwarves couldn't be wizards, then, was that Moradin had exiled the dwarf god of magic; that was also presumably why they had difficulty using many magic items.

(The logical thing for 3rd edition, then, would have been a very cool rapprochement in the wake of the Time of Troubles, a distrustful working relationship made between Moradin and Laduguer to reverse the long decline of both halves of dwarfdom. Instead we got that "Thunder Blessing" in the FRCS that explicitly excluded duergar.)

Incidentally, the way dwarves crafted magic items in AD&D 1e was explicitly that their clerics did it (and dwarf clerics in that edition were NPC only, before Unearthed Arcana came out).



The Thunder Blessing was the perfect way to address dwarven wizards, too -- just a sentence or two saying "Moradin decided magic was cool and that dwarves should use it" and there would have been no issues and no questions about the change. Instead, this opportunity to explain a change was ignored (deliberately, I suspect, since nothing else was explained, either).

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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
664 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2021 :  03:55:07  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon.

Suddenly looking forward to the next Impiltur supplement featuring the Hanseathic League coming out of the northern Easting Reach, to form a trade confederation based around brewing, drinking and singing.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

So simple, yet seemingly so difficult.


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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1402 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2021 :  05:09:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 28 Nov 2021 :  11:43:13  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.


LoB, do you know the source for the implied lichdom? It could help explain much of derros being an outcast race. The Mordinsamman as a rule do not appreciate undead.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1402 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2021 :  10:08:18  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.


LoB, do you know the source for the implied lichdom? It could help explain much of derros being an outcast race. The Mordinsamman as a rule do not appreciate undead.



His avatar is a "withered, lichlike creature" and one of his titles is "the Deep Lich". If he's not a lich, he's the closest the dwarves have to one.
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Delnyn
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USA
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Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  10:51:44  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
His avatar is a "withered, lichlike creature" and one of his titles is "the Deep Lich". If he's not a lich, he's the closest the dwarves have to one.



Thanks LoB. I can see the Mordinsamman kicking Diirinka out of the pantheon, if he ever was a member.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  15:38:59  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Derro are the result of Diirinka(and Diinkarazan)'s attempts to get an underground worshipping base of faster, more magical beings than typical dwarves. The breeding experiments of crossing humans with dwarves was thought to have have led to traits more sought after by the twin deities of magic.

Also if you look at the Derro adversaries found in tomes over the years you can see Derro who worship Diirinka the Betrayer tend to favor shadow sorcery that confuses; while the rare few who favor Diinkarazan the Mad God show the sorcerous skills of wild magic enhanced evokers and abjurers.

It seems to me the dwarven mages of ancient times were all Wild Mages. They had trouble controlling the results of spells; after years of study the chance of a spell going awry was still significant: unacceptable for a typical dwarven mindset.

The spontaneity of sorcerous blood is another strike against organised spellcasting orders forming within a typical dwarven realm. Diirinka needed human bloodlines with strong sorcerous ability to mingle with the dwarves to increase the chance of sorcerous dwarven children being born.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  16:00:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

It seems to me the dwarven mages of ancient times were all Wild Mages. They had trouble controlling the results of spells; after years of study the chance of a spell going awry was still significant: unacceptable for a typical dwarven mindset.



I don't see this one, especially given the prevalence of magical weapons and armor crafted by dwarves... What leads you to this conclusion?

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Dec 2021 16:01:02
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  21:44:12  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of the two twin demigods Diinkarazan was the most obviously wild magicly gifted. Dieties and Demigods said he could easily cast high level abjurations and evocations but sporadically did so at patheticly low level. Even imprisoned to his throne in the Mad Gods realm he is constantly surrounded by a windlike force he manifests instinctively to defend against his percieved threats.

This theme of erratic spellcasting might be a clue to dwarven societies early experiments with the arcane leading to unpredictable results. Dwarves like to grasp a problem meticulously and without error so a myth surrounding wild magic spellcasters getting disowned could be a good explenation why dwarves traditionally shun organised arcane casting.

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