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 Looking for "ancient dwarven spellcaster orders"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  15:32:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos



I could definitely see some Azerblood dwarves worshipping Tharmekhûl, and since Eric gave them a region in the realms, I see that as a good addition

From Dragon 350: Legacies of Ancient Empires

Azerbloods are most common in the Small Teeth mountains of western Amn, as most are members of the remnants of Clan Azerkyn, which once ruled the southern caverns of the Adamant Kingdom of Xothaerin. Individual azerbloods can also be found in shield dwarf clans dwelling in the mountain ranges that lie near the Lake of Steam.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xothaerin

I could see Shanatar also being a place where Thautum might have also been worshipped.

It should be noted that Dugmaren Brightmantle fills a role as a god of knowledge and "spellcasters". Thautum is more a god of "making magic weapons and armor". He's a crafting god. In this way, I would probably present Dugmaren as a god embraced by wizards, but Thautum would be embraced by artificers (who tend to be inclined to melee than traditional wizards in current rulesets). Thautum would be a great god for artificer armorers and battlesmiths.



I find no reason to object to this. Connecting Azerblood dwarves to Tharmekhûl gives him more of a purpose than just being Moradin's assistant and gives him at least something Realms-specific.

Thautum as a god of crafting magical items works for me, too. It still leaves Dugmaren as the god of dwarven wizards (which I clearly favor), but gives Thautum a useful role -- because dwarves are known for the magical items they craft. (This was always an issue for me, in 2E, anyway: if dwarves couldn't be wizards, how could they make magical items? The way Salvatore handled Bruenor making Aegis-Fang was well-done, but that came across as a once-in-a-lifetime thing and didn't solve the entire issue)

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  20:13:39  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...

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see
Learned Scribe

235 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2021 :  14:47:52  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll note that in AD&D 2nd edition, Laduguer was explicitly a god of magic; it was listed in his portfolio in both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities. The obvious reason dwarves couldn't be wizards, then, was that Moradin had exiled the dwarf god of magic; that was also presumably why they had difficulty using many magic items.

(The logical thing for 3rd edition, then, would have been a very cool rapprochement in the wake of the Time of Troubles, a distrustful working relationship made between Moradin and Laduguer to reverse the long decline of both halves of dwarfdom. Instead we got that "Thunder Blessing" in the FRCS that explicitly excluded duergar.)

Incidentally, the way dwarves crafted magic items in AD&D 1e was explicitly that their clerics did it (and dwarf clerics in that edition were NPC only, before Unearthed Arcana came out).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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35999 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2021 :  15:54:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

I'll note that in AD&D 2nd edition, Laduguer was explicitly a god of magic; it was listed in his portfolio in both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities. The obvious reason dwarves couldn't be wizards, then, was that Moradin had exiled the dwarf god of magic; that was also presumably why they had difficulty using many magic items.

(The logical thing for 3rd edition, then, would have been a very cool rapprochement in the wake of the Time of Troubles, a distrustful working relationship made between Moradin and Laduguer to reverse the long decline of both halves of dwarfdom. Instead we got that "Thunder Blessing" in the FRCS that explicitly excluded duergar.)

Incidentally, the way dwarves crafted magic items in AD&D 1e was explicitly that their clerics did it (and dwarf clerics in that edition were NPC only, before Unearthed Arcana came out).



The Thunder Blessing was the perfect way to address dwarven wizards, too -- just a sentence or two saying "Moradin decided magic was cool and that dwarves should use it" and there would have been no issues and no questions about the change. Instead, this opportunity to explain a change was ignored (deliberately, I suspect, since nothing else was explained, either).

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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2021 :  03:55:07  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon.

Suddenly looking forward to the next Impiltur supplement featuring the Hanseathic League coming out of the northern Easting Reach, to form a trade confederation based around brewing, drinking and singing.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

So simple, yet seemingly so difficult.


AJA
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1426 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2021 :  05:09:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.
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Delnyn
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Posted - 28 Nov 2021 :  11:43:13  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.


LoB, do you know the source for the implied lichdom? It could help explain much of derros being an outcast race. The Mordinsamman as a rule do not appreciate undead.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1426 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2021 :  10:08:18  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.


LoB, do you know the source for the implied lichdom? It could help explain much of derros being an outcast race. The Mordinsamman as a rule do not appreciate undead.



His avatar is a "withered, lichlike creature" and one of his titles is "the Deep Lich". If he's not a lich, he's the closest the dwarves have to one.
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Delnyn
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669 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  10:51:44  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
His avatar is a "withered, lichlike creature" and one of his titles is "the Deep Lich". If he's not a lich, he's the closest the dwarves have to one.



Thanks LoB. I can see the Mordinsamman kicking Diirinka out of the pantheon, if he ever was a member.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  15:38:59  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Derro are the result of Diirinka(and Diinkarazan)'s attempts to get an underground worshipping base of faster, more magical beings than typical dwarves. The breeding experiments of crossing humans with dwarves was thought to have have led to traits more sought after by the twin deities of magic.

Also if you look at the Derro adversaries found in tomes over the years you can see Derro who worship Diirinka the Betrayer tend to favor shadow sorcery that confuses; while the rare few who favor Diinkarazan the Mad God show the sorcerous skills of wild magic enhanced evokers and abjurers.

It seems to me the dwarven mages of ancient times were all Wild Mages. They had trouble controlling the results of spells; after years of study the chance of a spell going awry was still significant: unacceptable for a typical dwarven mindset.

The spontaneity of sorcerous blood is another strike against organised spellcasting orders forming within a typical dwarven realm. Diirinka needed human bloodlines with strong sorcerous ability to mingle with the dwarves to increase the chance of sorcerous dwarven children being born.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
35999 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  16:00:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

It seems to me the dwarven mages of ancient times were all Wild Mages. They had trouble controlling the results of spells; after years of study the chance of a spell going awry was still significant: unacceptable for a typical dwarven mindset.



I don't see this one, especially given the prevalence of magical weapons and armor crafted by dwarves... What leads you to this conclusion?

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Dec 2021 16:01:02
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2021 :  21:44:12  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of the two twin demigods Diinkarazan was the most obviously wild magicly gifted. Dieties and Demigods said he could easily cast high level abjurations and evocations but sporadically did so at patheticly low level. Even imprisoned to his throne in the Mad Gods realm he is constantly surrounded by a windlike force he manifests instinctively to defend against his percieved threats.

This theme of erratic spellcasting might be a clue to dwarven societies early experiments with the arcane leading to unpredictable results. Dwarves like to grasp a problem meticulously and without error so a myth surrounding wild magic spellcasters getting disowned could be a good explenation why dwarves traditionally shun organised arcane casting.

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