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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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35345 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2021 :  02:05:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Or, again, just have the caster cast the spell himself and tie it to the mythallar. There's no need for some artificial caster in the mix.



Oh, only reason I was picturing it was the spell was relatively high in level. Then again... actually for Proctiv's Steely Glass (glassteel) the duration wasn't limited, so a one time casting would work.



I'm still not clear on why there's a need for a physical barrier.

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sleyvas
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USA
10657 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2021 :  14:51:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Or, again, just have the caster cast the spell himself and tie it to the mythallar. There's no need for some artificial caster in the mix.



Oh, only reason I was picturing it was the spell was relatively high in level. Then again... actually for Proctiv's Steely Glass (glassteel) the duration wasn't limited, so a one time casting would work.



I'm still not clear on why there's a need for a physical barrier.



Oh, that's because I didn't get around to that in my discussion... got sidetracked as usual. The city was originally the Netherese enclave of Doubloon. It was a city known for being able to disappear and escape pursuit. Part of that for me involved the idea that it might be able to submerge itself. The enclave might even regularly delve beneath the ocean, and one of the reasons it may have been lost is because when it "fell" it went beneath the waves. I've since got my history that it was in Halruaa after the fall (so someone found it). It was taken by the Leirans during their exodus to Nimbral. When Nimbral began to interact more with wildspace, the city's mythallar was fitted with something like the helm of the dwarves, but moving at MUCH MUCH MUCH slower speeds such that it could exit the atmosphere (an amazing development for them) by studying old Netherese lore. Eventually though, this group lost contact with Nimbral (i.e. they decided to isolate themselves for some reason that I haven't detailed yet... maybe fallout between political factions or somesuch... maybe a disease broke out... maybe a simple growing rift between generations of those living in space and those living in Nimbral).

One thing that I've been picturing is that its a "flat" enclave made of four layers of metal, with a bowl of water in the middle connecting these four layers. There would also be 16 "towers" connecting the four layers on the outer edges, with glass between them to seal the enclave. The entire enclave would be a mile wide, with the top platform covered in a thick layer of earth (thinking about 100 feet thick). The dome would cover the top, In the middle of the center lake there would be an island, with a castle on it. Surrounding this would be living space, stores, taverns, restaurants, inns, theatres, and seedier places (gambling dens, strip clubs, brothels, slave auctions, etc...). The skies are full of carriages bringing people from one part of the city to others pulled via pegasi (many of which are regular horses, but the carriage gives wings to a horse hooked to it). I am wanting it to be like a small version of Vegas, full of decadence and wealth. This topmost layer might even have illusory scents put into the air that evoke a slight euphoria, or spells that make even the simplest foods "taste" better.

This top area would also contain places for arcane students to live, temples to the gods of magic, a teleportation circle

The three layers beneath the top would be separated by 80 feet each and would be for

2nd layer - living quarters for the servant/mercantile/craftsmen class. This would be simple "inelegant" stone structures, some created magically long ago, some built over time. It would also contain some warehouses. The 16 towers on the outer edge would have "docking" areas where larger spelljamming vessels can transfer their loads to transports on this level to the warehouses. They would also have two gates (airlock) through which ships that can pass through a 30 foot diameter can pass. Larger ships could land on the underside of the city if they needed to stay for an extended period and traverse into the interior of the city via smaller, guarded airlocks as well.

3rd primarily this floor is nothing more than an extremely large tank of water. It doesn't extend all the way to the edges of the enclave, and the surrounding area is made into sections which can be temporarily contained by walls of force if a rupture occurs in the tank until permanent fixes can be enacted. The outer area also contains some pipes which lead to the bottom layer.

4th layer primarily this layer is nothing more than a huge septic tank or compost area. Some sections of the upper city might actually have indoor plumbing, but there would also be places to empty "waste" products. I picture the city as periodically flying somewhere and emptying these products over areas that they might return to later to farm during the age of Netheril. With the city in space, there might be small farming colonies on some of the tears of Selune or they may actually fly to the moon and dump their waste on farms there (I picture this place having involvement with the culture on the moon and not isolated from them). They might even have their own section on the moon that THEY farm and have colonized.

Here's some drawings I've got going so far

Luneira top view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5G1yHld78OPzYAJSVKgCDAgL_sBSZ0b/view?usp=sharing

Luneira side view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BqOsbgOzi_Syh1BEIfqBaDI_XAB_iORP/view?usp=sharing

Luneira in space
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Am7YX9wV6eqqiV9hg24Tfvk53wlTSOw_/view?usp=sharing

I'd been thinking about this concept for a while, but never actually "built" it. So, for a lark, I decided to try and lay it out and see what I could do with it. One thing I'm trying to get away from is the idea of an urban sprawl of buildings at the top. The idea that its mansions and hotels and similar large buildings (some sections would be like "large" apartments where, for instance, wizard students might each have their own dwelling... picturing like 16 apartments in a building). Some apartment buildings might have higher level wizards who actually cast spells like Mordenkainen's mansion and rent the extradimensional spaces to visitors of the city. The city itself would have a LOT of greenspace so that it can be beautiful, including sections for parks, etc... Horses might be seen grazing areas throughout the city as well (some appearing to be unicorns of varying colors, though its all illusory).... of course with servants to clean their mess up.

I also picture the upper city as having zero roads. There may be some paths that have gravel enough beneath the grass to support a weighted wagon, but most travel in the city is either walking or via flying (pegacoaches, flying brooms, flight spells, magic cloaks and boots, etc....). The more extravagant and impressive looking method, the better. The city is all about the facade... this illusion... the glamour.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Sep 2021 16:04:16
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35345 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2021 :  15:38:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Oh, that's because I didn't get around to that in my discussion... got sidetracked as usual. The city was originally the Netherese enclave of Doubloon. It was a city known for being able to disappear and escape pursuit. Part of that for me involved the idea that it might be able to submerge itself. The enclave might even regularly delve beneath the ocean, and one of the reasons it may have been lost is because when it "fell" it went beneath the waves. I've since got my history that it was in Halruaa after the fall (so someone found it). It was taken by the Leirans during their exodus to Nimbral. When Nimbral began to interact more with wildspace, the city's mythallar was fitted with something like the helm of the dwarves, but moving at MUCH MUCH MUCH slower speeds such that it could exit the atmosphere (an amazing development for them) by studying old Netherese lore. Eventually though, this group lost contact with Nimbral (i.e. they decided to isolate themselves for some reason that I haven't detailed yet... maybe fallout between political factions or somesuch... maybe a disease broke out... maybe a simple growing rift between generations of those living in space and those living in Nimbral).


Hmm, okay. Not so sure about the rest, but I like this part, and I think I'm going to tweak it some and use it myself.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10657 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2021 :  16:06:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Oh, that's because I didn't get around to that in my discussion... got sidetracked as usual. The city was originally the Netherese enclave of Doubloon. It was a city known for being able to disappear and escape pursuit. Part of that for me involved the idea that it might be able to submerge itself. The enclave might even regularly delve beneath the ocean, and one of the reasons it may have been lost is because when it "fell" it went beneath the waves. I've since got my history that it was in Halruaa after the fall (so someone found it). It was taken by the Leirans during their exodus to Nimbral. When Nimbral began to interact more with wildspace, the city's mythallar was fitted with something like the helm of the dwarves, but moving at MUCH MUCH MUCH slower speeds such that it could exit the atmosphere (an amazing development for them) by studying old Netherese lore. Eventually though, this group lost contact with Nimbral (i.e. they decided to isolate themselves for some reason that I haven't detailed yet... maybe fallout between political factions or somesuch... maybe a disease broke out... maybe a simple growing rift between generations of those living in space and those living in Nimbral).


Hmm, okay. Not so sure about the rest, but I like this part, and I think I'm going to tweak it some and use it myself.



No problem, glad to see some ideas growing and would love to hear other directions people might take things. I also picture that THIS city having knowledge of glassteel might also be why Nimbral and its pegasi mounted "Knights of the Flying Hunt" has knowledge of glassteel.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Sep 2021 16:07:37
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2127 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2021 :  20:00:29  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the Vohlm's Drain spells and making the lich, as already noted, it was effectively the spell energy drain. This drains levels and therefore life energy, and it is noted as being something that can create undead in earlier editions (not necessarily liches, but this is some overpowered amount).
This drain spell that was altered and in a feedback loop with active mythallar but a few seconds ago. And on heavy magic. Kind of unusual circumstances, and lots of magic involved.

quote:
What I find interesting is that it drains from a mythallar, which MIGHT imply that mythallars (at least some) were drawing power from the positive material plane or somehow using "life energy".

There are Positive/Negative planes, so in this sense lifeforce is "related".
But normally Vohlm's Drain and draining undead were safe to mythallars: outside this little incident there are no caveats or notes on such interaction whatsoever (with or without heavy magic), which would be quite noteworthy.
In this experiment the spell was specifically tweaked to feed into the mythallar. Perhaps acquired greater affinity to its field as a result. And/or the other way around: feeding lifeforce into mythallar changed its field just enough to be drained this way.
Either way, nasty unexpected side effect of tinkering.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
552 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2021 :  00:37:32  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sorry, but I'm not a rules person. I think the overall concept is too badly flawed. For me, it's one of those situations where it would take more time and energy to fix a bad thing than it would to just make something new.



At first glance, heavy magic resembles chardalyn in colloidal phase. I too would take the Netheril:Empire of Magic set with a grain of salt.
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TBeholder
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2127 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2021 :  03:22:22  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

When Nimbral began to interact more with wildspace, the city's mythallar was fitted with something like the helm of the dwarves, but moving at MUCH MUCH MUCH slower speeds such that it could exit the atmosphere (an amazing development for them) by studying old Netherese lore.

A "conventional" series helm would be enough. IIRC arks are fit with these. It would be obscenely expensive... but mythallar allows to implement those as quasimagic items.
Then there could be Netherese prototypes that steered Thayan helm development in such an unusual direction.

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn


At first glance, heavy magic resembles chardalyn in colloidal phase.

...and "synthetic chardalyn" would obviously be one of top goals on many arcanists' R&D lists, from the day chardalyn was discovered to the day Netheril fell.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2271 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2021 :  09:42:41  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sorry, but I'm not a rules person. I think the overall concept is too badly flawed. For me, it's one of those situations where it would take more time and energy to fix a bad thing than it would to just make something new.



At first glance, heavy magic resembles chardalyn in colloidal phase. I too would take the Netheril:Empire of Magic set with a grain of salt.



The only problem I had with the Netheril set was the stupid re-naming. Such a silly idea.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10657 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2021 :  15:07:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sorry, but I'm not a rules person. I think the overall concept is too badly flawed. For me, it's one of those situations where it would take more time and energy to fix a bad thing than it would to just make something new.



At first glance, heavy magic resembles chardalyn in colloidal phase. I too would take the Netheril:Empire of Magic set with a grain of salt.



Well, I had to first look up colloidal, as its not a word I use often. So, what you're saying is that heavy magic appears to be like a "gel"/"ooze" that's working because "ground up" chardalyn dust is mixed in with it. I will say that's an interesting idea. If we go with a more modern "understanding" of what Chardalyn is (i.e. it seems to be a crystal with ties to the Abyss) might the "gel"/"ooze" also have similar ties? Just a thought that popped in my head when reading what you wrote.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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35345 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2021 :  20:16:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chardalyn having Abyssal ties is a retcon, and it's a non-sensical one at that. I'd personally say that either A)Abyssal chardalyn is only available in one region, and it's a tainted version of the regular stuff, or B)Abyssal chardalyn has nothing to do with regular chardalyn, it's misnamed.

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The Masked Mage
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2271 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2021 :  09:25:15  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Either way, I'd say that making heavy magic a solution would mean that the spell that creates it, would actually be a conjuration spell that summons up a bit f the dust. Interesting twist.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10657 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2021 :  15:27:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Chardalyn having Abyssal ties is a retcon, and it's a non-sensical one at that. I'd personally say that either A)Abyssal chardalyn is only available in one region, and it's a tainted version of the regular stuff, or B)Abyssal chardalyn has nothing to do with regular chardalyn, it's misnamed.




I agree that the properties listed are different, but I won't say nonsensical. Its not unusual for one person's accounting of the properties of a crystal or metal to not list everything that there is to know about the stuff. For instance, someone 300 years ago writing about the properties of silver versus someone today will write entirely different views.

That being said, I also don't mind the idea of them being different materials and people using the same name for "black gems that work with magic". I've long felt it would be good to do something similar to Volo's Guide to Magic to gather all this newer stuff that's been introduced in later editions (such as blended quartz, etc....).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe

404 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2021 :  17:00:10  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoy figuring out rules normally but alas am a bit busy at the moment. I will say when reading the description of Heavy Magic it reminded me of quintessence as the general feel. It deals with time instead of magic, the concept of making something intangible tangible, the idea that it can be harnessed to do useful things but also be destructive. Might be a good springboard for someone looking to update Heavy Magic.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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